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yajvan
29 November 2011, 02:05 PM
hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

namasté

I watched a video by Robert A.F. Thurman¹ . He spoke of buddhism. I must say I gained a new insight into this approach, this dharma.

He spoke of many things as it was several hours in length, yet the one idea that was most rewarding was catvāri āryasatyāni, we know as the 4 noble truths of buddhism.

What was most insightful was the time Mr. Thurman gave to framing the noble truths properly. A key word in catvāri āryasatyāni is ārya. This word means respectable, honorable, a master, being wise. And we know of this word satyā means truth, reality, it also means certainly, really.

Hence these noble truths are above the notion of being propositional statements or assertions ( some say creeds). They are how one established in Reality ( such as the Buddha) sees what is going on in the world of men.
As one that has been lifted up past the field of the 3 guna-s, one sees others that are tangled up in the world. Hence the 4 noble truths as perceived by the enlightened are:

Suffering does exist - what is implied is suffering exists for the ignorant
This suffering has an origin and arises from attachment to desires
Suffering ceases when attachment to desire ceases
Freedom from suffering is possible by the proper path Hence just by the proper explanation of one word ārya a whole new view is offered to the reader, the aspirant on the path.


praṇām

references:
Robert A.F. Thurman is the Jey Tsong Khapa Professor of Indo-Tibetan Buddhist Studies in the Department of Religion at Columbia University, President of the Tibet House U.S., a non-profit organization dedicated to the preservation and promotion of Tibetan civilization, and President of the American Institute of Buddhist Studies, a non-profit affiliated with the Center for Buddhist Studies at Columbia University and dedicated
to the publication of translations of important texts from the Tibetan Tanjur.

the video : http://www.amazon.com/Robert-F-Thurman-Buddhism/dp/B00005Y721

PARAM
29 November 2011, 10:21 PM
I think the supporters of Christian made AIT should also oppose Buddha and Buddhism for powering on Aryan Truths.

yajvan
30 November 2011, 11:34 AM
hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

namasté


I think the supporters of Christian made AIT should also oppose Buddha and Buddhism for powering on Aryan Truths.

What is AIT ? And what is 'powering on Aryan truths' ? That is what does this mean, infer ?

Yet if the message is to 'oppose' it is not for me.

praṇām

PARAM
01 December 2011, 09:49 AM
hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

namasté



What is AIT ? And what is 'powering on Aryan truths' ? That is what does this mean, infer ?

Yet if the message is to 'oppose' it is not for me.

praṇām

This is same Maxmullar's Bible based theory who claimed Aryan Invasion. AIT. Buddha's 4 noble truths were Aryan Truth or Ary Truth. There are many Buddhists who support AIT for opposing Dharma, but they hardly oppose Buddha for powering on 'आर्य सत्य'.

Eastern Mind
01 December 2011, 10:25 AM
Vannakkam Yajvan: My wife picked up one of his books called "Circling the Sacred Mountain' for 10 cents at a garage sale. I haven't read it, but she enjoyed it. For those who don't know, he is Uma Thurman's (Hollywood actress) father. (Not that that means anything.)

Aum Namasivaya

NayaSurya
01 December 2011, 10:51 AM
Could not dwell in this way of thinking.

I am very grateful for SD and its more advanced ways of dealing with suffering.

NayaSurya
01 December 2011, 10:53 AM
Vannakkam Yajvan: My wife picked up one of his books called "Circling the Sacred Mountain' for 10 cents at a garage sale. I haven't read it, but she enjoyed it. For those who don't know, he is Uma Thurman's (Hollywood actress) father. (Not that that means anything.)

Aum Namasivaya

Sounds interestingly about Beloved Kailash?

yajvan
01 December 2011, 11:25 AM
hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

namasté



This is same Maxmullar's Bible based theory who claimed Aryan Invasion. AIT. Buddha's 4 noble truths were Aryan Truth or Ary Truth. There are many Buddhists who support AIT for opposing Dharma, but they hardly oppose Buddha for powering on 'आर्य सत्य'.

I have read some of Max Mueller's translations, yet have no ill feelings towards him.


praṇām

yajvan
01 December 2011, 11:39 AM
hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

namasté

Regarding buddhism, I am delighted to see the interconnectedness it has with sanātana dharma. The buddhists I have met have been very humane, reverent, and have the greatest respect for other beings on this earth.

Their view of reality is quite robust, a little different then my views and what I was taught, yet my teacher said their knowlege and view was complete. Once you look 'under the hood' we can see this.

In no way do I find this teaching subordinate or less worthy of respect. As one studies, questions, experiences and observes the world what bubbles to the top is less and less diversity. Sama begins to show her face in all things.


praṇām

1. sama - is even-ness, balance; some like to say it this way sa+mā = together with lakṣmi , happy , prosperous

Eastern Mind
01 December 2011, 11:52 AM
Sounds interestingly about Beloved Kailash?

Vannakkam Naya: Yes, it was about Kailash, basically a travelogue with lots of physical, emotional, and karmic trials. He was also very instrumental in the bringing of the Dalai Lama to America the first time.

Aum Namasivaya

NayaSurya
01 December 2011, 11:52 AM
I was hoping you would invite this conversation. This is your home, your ideas and also a Buddhist folder and I was brief above for that reason.

If this noble truths are a full view why do they not show fullness?


I have been a witness to suffering on a grand scale in this life. Mostly not of my own...as I was a private nurse for terminal client many many years. During this time I became deeply involved which each person, their family...their life.


1. Suffering does exist - what is implied is suffering exists for the ignorant.

How about a child? A two month old baby or an 80 year old man. One with great knowledge...one without a need for knowledge(baby)?

2.This suffering has an origin and arises from attachment to desires

What desire does a two month old baby have when his step parent is beating his head in with a hammer? For him to stop?

This is suffering without desire...not brought about by your own desire at all...

What desire did a 80 year old man with terminal lung cancer have? For the pain to stop?

3. Suffering ceases when attachment to desire ceases.

When exactly would such a desire cease? When they were dead?

4. Freedom from suffering is possible by the proper path

"proper path"


As a mother I have seen much of this sort of attitude with my neighbors...they run over an animal and claim the animal is not really hurting...the twitches are just "nervous reactions after death".

Suffering happens. These realms are gross manifested reality. Some if not much suffering happens to innocents with little or no "desire"...unless you count wanting abuse to stop to be a desire?

Suffering happens because of Karma being burned...things from previous lives or from a current one. That is the reason for pain and suffering in SD not "desire".

Yet, I am not beyond the belief that sometimes things happen here unforseen...and that one without a debt to pay could be sucked into a large event such as 9/11 and though suffered through it, did come out unscathed and also recovered quickly which would explain why some who go through tremendous adversity sometimes do come through without hinderance or seemingly any ill effects from the event.

In the middle of the night, you can be yanked from your bed with Afib and perhaps even die right there in front of your children....

and as much peace, Love and calm you could muster in that moment of departure would not negate that suffering.

You can become unaffected, you can separate yourself so much from this place you become numb. But, it will never negate the tremendous suffering still happening in every moment all over this realm. Where is this Truth found above for the one who sees this and can not shut it off so casually?

Now, this is not to say the fool has any more of the answer than these reaching out in the darkness of the above "4 noble truths".

But, it does seem only one angle of the camera?

I do know you have the full view Beloved Yajvan and would like to know what you think of suffering given the limited statements above?

yajvan
01 December 2011, 12:50 PM
hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

namasté narasurya,

Your questions are relevent. Please note that my response is not aimed at trying to convience, or convert but to offer a point of view of appreciation to another line of sight on Reality.
It takes time to read, listen and ponder buddhism for the fruit to ripen. It has taken me some time - yet the light started to go on with the proper definition of words that have been casually used without the proper placement, position or definition. to this I raise the flag of awareness to others to not fall prey.


The the 4 noble truths are not the whole story of buddhism. There is so much more then this... we are missing the 8 fold path, the middle way, the 3 gems, samādhi ( for your fullness question), to name a few. This path is not entry level and takes some time to appreciate it.

Their view is the highest - when one is in full bloom ( enlightenment) then compassion too is in full bloom. One then knows everything personally and an extention of one's own Self; how can one not have compassion for the whole of the world, for every being. This is their thoughts and unfoldment and what the higher beings work toward - the goodness of all. Yet along the way, this compassion is at evey step.


If one has a body there will be pains, yet suffering is optional. This is key. When one is tightly coupled to the body, suffering occurs - that is why it is attached to the ignorant. This ignorance is not knowing that 2+2 =4 or not knowing a subject in science but that of not dwelling (veśman - the dwelling) or residing in the Self ( ātman ). All pains are then experienced directly and fully. This truth is the same for buddhism, vedānta, kaśmir śaivism, and the like.


I leave you with a quote from a non-buddhist, a realized being¹ that unfolded his fullness via the path of vedāntic principles:

Q: The universe does not seem a happy place to live in. Why is there so much suffering?

A: Śrī Nisargadatta Mahraj:
Pain is physical, suffering is mental. Beyond the mind there is no suffering. Pain is merely a signal that the body is in danger and requires attention.
Similarly, suffering warns us that the structure of memories and habit, which we call the person (vyakti¹) is threatened by loss or change.
Pain is essential for the survival of the body, but none compels you to suffer. Suffering is due entirely to clinging and resisting. It is a sign of our unwillingness to move on, to flow with life. As a sane life is free of pain, so is a saintly life free from suffering.


praṇām
words 

Talks with Śrī Nisargadatta Mahraj - I AM that
vyakti - an individual; specific appearance , distinctness; visible appearance or manifestation , becoming evident or known or public

NayaSurya
01 December 2011, 01:09 PM
And this I can say is fuller to my being. I am deeply grateful for your time and wonderful words of knowledge.

Desire would well be switched out for clutching or clinging to this fool.

As you often say, ultimately it is ignorance of self, which causes all of this pain.

In my wanderings, the ones which, "do not know they do not know" seem to suffer the greatest.

But, also seem to enjoy this place with the most passion.

For this moment, I can not seem to shut off the constant thoughts about this sea of Beloved and the great suffering which cries from every corner of humanity.

Ignorance, desires...and clutching within the vessel aside, I still hear those cries...I do still feel their suffering. Would that I could shut it off and be done, in the understanding that as a child cries in the night all will become at peace some day? I feel Beloved must often laugh when I pose this question to Him. Knowing the child can not shut it off, nor would she if it be possible.

For in the moment when I felt above myself... I felt such Love and also sorrow as I looked into my children's eyes and knew a great gaping hole would not be filled in my absence. Though it be a dream, I want it to end well for them.

Beloved, Yajvan. I know this is a dream, i understand that all of this is just a tiny instant to the We that we truly are.

But it seems such a painfully long instant to this traveler.

Forgive me.

PARAM
01 December 2011, 10:37 PM
hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

namasté



I have read some of Max Mueller's translations, yet have no ill feelings towards him.


praṇām


You do not have any ill feelings towards anyone, so I do not expect you to have on Max Mueller either.

What I am saying is, many supporters of Buddhism also support the fake claim of AIT and disrespect their own forefathers, they should also disrespect Buddha, who himself made power on 'Aryan Truths'.

Jainarayan
02 December 2011, 08:43 AM
Namaste all.


What I am saying is, many supporters of Buddhism also support the fake claim of AIT and disrespect their own forefathers...

Forgive me for hijacking the thread, but those who cling to the AIT are living in the past and are living in ignorance.

The modern sciences of genetics, archaeology and anthropology are soundly refuting the AIT; it is unequivocally false (the following bold and italics are mine).

Based on the patterns of modern human migration out of Africa about 200,000 years ago, over a route through the Sahara and Arabian peninsula (which were not deserts at the time, but lush wetlands), humans reached south Asia about 50,000 years ago. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Early_human_migrations


Modern humans, Homo sapiens (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homo_sapiens), evolved in Africa up to 200,000 years ago and reached the Near East (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Near_East) around 125,000 years ago.[3] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Early_human_migrations#cite_note-2) From the Near East, these populations spread east to South Asia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paleolithic_South_Asia) by 50,000 years ago, and on to Australia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prehistoric_Australia) by 40,000 years ago,[4] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Early_human_migrations#cite_note-Bowler-3)

That is to say, there has been no "mass migration" into the Indian subcontinent in over 50,000 years. That was more than enough time to develop the indigenous cultures and societies. Combine that with the foregoing scientific evidence, I think it's safe to say that India has developed its own identity and culture over the past 50,000 years, at least.

So in a word, the AIT is ****. Now, the challenge is to make people accept the new science and let go of their ignorance.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aryan_migration#Physical_anthropology



Based on examination of skeletal remains, no evidence of massive migration has been found.[28] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aryan_migration#cite_note-27)[29] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aryan_migration#cite_note-28)[30] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aryan_migration#cite_note-29) The ancient Harappans were not markedly different from modern populations in Northwestern India and present-day Pakistan.




However, archaeological evidence consistent with a mass population movement, or an invasion of South Asia in the pre- or proto- historic periods, has not been found.[34] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aryan_migration#cite_note-33)[35] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aryan_migration#cite_note-34)[36] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aryan_migration#cite_note-35) At best, there is evidence of small-scale migrations approaching South Asia.[37] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aryan_migration#cite_note-36)[38] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aryan_migration#cite_note-37) But, professional archaeologists in India remain quite skeptical.[39] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aryan_migration#cite_note-38)


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aryan_migration#Notes

^ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aryan_migration#cite_ref-29) "the data provide no support for any model of massive migration and gene flow between the oases of Bactria and the Indus Valley. Rather, patterns of phonetic affinity best conform to a pattern of long-standing, but low-level bidirectional mutual exchange. "Hemphill 1998 "Biological Affinities and Adaptations of Bronze Age Bactrians: III. An initial craniometric assessment", American Journal of Physical Anthropology (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Journal_of_Physical_Anthropology), 106, 329-348.; Hemphill 1999 "Biological Affinities and Adaptations of Bronze Age Bactrians: III. A Craniometric Investigation of Bactrian Origins", American Journal of Physical Anthropology, 108, 173-192

^ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aryan_migration#cite_ref-33) "Current archaeological data do not support the existence of an Indo-Aryan or European invasion into South Asia any time in the pre- or protohistoric periods. Instead, it is possible to document archaeologically a series of cultural changes reflecting indigenous cultural developments from prehistoric to historic periods" Jim Shaffer (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jim_Shaffer), The Indo-Aryan Invasions : Cultural Myth and Archaeological Reality

^ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aryan_migration#cite_ref-38) "The vast majority of professional archaeologists I interviewed in India insisted that there was no convincing archaeological evidence whatsoever to support any claims of external Indo-Aryan origins. This is part of a wider trend: archaeologists working outside of South Asia are voicing similar views." Bryant (2001 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aryan_migration#CITEREFBryant2001):231 ff)

^ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aryan_migration#cite_ref-39) "Although the overall socioeconomic organization changed, continuities in technology (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Technology), subsistence practices, settlement organization, and some regional symbols (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Symbols) show that the indigenous population was not displaced by invading hordes of Indo-Aryan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indo-Aryan_languages) speaking people. For many years, the ‘invasions’ or ‘migrations’ of these Indo-Aryan-speaking Vedic/Aryan tribes explained the decline of the Indus civilization and the sudden rise of urbanization in the Ganges (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ganges)-Yamuna (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yamuna) valley. This was based on simplistic models of culture change and an uncritical reading of Vedic texts..." Kenoyer, quoted in Bryant 2001 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aryan_migration#CITEREFBryant2001):190

I thought you would like to know there is scientific backing to trash the AIT. ;)

Btw, if any mod or satay feel this should be moved so as not to sully this thread, I understand.

Mana
03 December 2011, 05:51 AM
Namaste yajvan, all

I find the Buddhist philosophy, of which admittedly I know very little, to be a somewhat sparse derivative of its Grandfather; sanAtana dharma, of which it is obviously its own self similar part, how can others follow to this view of reality if there is not the rich poetry of others who have themselves walked the path and seen?

The fables of Gods who's story's reflect upon our being and our lives; illuminating the path of those who seek.

Maybe it is that, one who has mastered this reality, may chose to disperse of the garments need to walk its thorny path. As those garments them selves become a part of the knotted reality.

Does Buddhism lead to feudalism?
Maybe it disperses charlatans in effect clearing the path?

With that said, it is most likely, isms which lead to feudalism.

A fascinating and a thought provoking thread, thank you.

praNAma

mana

PARAM
03 December 2011, 10:47 AM
-----------
Thank You for this post, this is not hijacking but a right one.:)


Btw, if any mod or satay feel this should be moved so as not to sully this thread, I understand.

I am not objecting this thread.
Yajwan is one of the most intelligent persons here. I put my comment to target those ignorant who do not accept truth and still talk about Buddhism, AIT is false and Buddha himself was aware that Ary is superior, noble.

Jainarayan
03 December 2011, 11:33 AM
Thank You for this post, this is not hijacking but a right one.:)

It had to be said. ;)

Eventually "the truth will out" as they say. It may take a while but it will happen.

This quote says much:



"The vast majority of professional archaeologists I interviewed in India insisted that there was no convincing archaeological evidence whatsoever to support any claims of external Indo-Aryan origins. This is part of a wider trend: archaeologists working outside of South Asia are voicing similar views."

It says to me that Indian archaeologists and scientists are saying "Listen, we know more about our history than non-Indians do and we are proving it", with other scientists are getting on-board. Indian scientists, doctors and engineers of every discipline are among the most dedicated and educated in the world. That is very important especially to the Indian people, as well as to outsiders. I have yet to meet an "uneducated" or ignorant or arrogant Indian-American, but I know plenty of uneducated and ignorant US-born Americans!