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Eric11235
16 January 2012, 08:11 AM
Vannakam,

Excuse me if this has already been posted, but I'm curious on the opinions. Is it god who punishes or is it the accruing of negative karma which leads to misfortune? I'm inclined to take the position of the latter as it is more a matter of responsibility for one's own actions as opposed to placing the blame on the supreme.

As always I'm eager to hear others opinions.

Namaste

Kismet
16 January 2012, 08:21 AM
My understanding currently, and per my guru's understanding as well, is that no, God does not punish. God only deals with us through Mercy, not "wrath."

This raises the question though: if all negative things come to us as a result of karma, how is it that God is sometimes depicted as violent? As in Kali cutting off the heads of various demons, or Rudra annihilating the universe.

I suppose in the first case one might say that Kali is administering justice in appearance only, and that it is simply the delusion of ignorant persons that they are suffering what is actually an act of mercy: the destruction of the false ego. Likewise, one might say that God's "acts" of destruction are merely impersonal motions which stem invariably from natural law and should not be looked at as instances of "punishment" in that there is no motivation to punish, only to maintain the world's order, causality, and so on.

Eastern Mind
16 January 2012, 08:54 AM
Vannakkam: Violent depictions are to be taken metaphorically, with the demons being lower emotions. Personally, I find it unfortunate that this isn't brought to light more clearly, as the western interpreters (and Hindus ourselves) have occasionally had a field day misinterpreting it.

But it is what it is.

God is benevolent. Suffering happens not only because of karma, but also as lessons on the path that enable the soul's progress along it.

Aum Namasivaya

sankar
16 January 2012, 09:28 AM
it is our own bad actions(karma) that causes suffering to other people which constitutes to negative karma results.

If everyone is considered to be god, then yes, it is god who does the punishment.

Jainarayan
16 January 2012, 11:00 AM
Namaste.

I wrote this elsewhere, in another thread:


"My belief is that Lord Krishna neither condemns nor redeems. He tells us how to achieve Him."

And to that belief I hold.

wundermonk
16 January 2012, 11:52 AM
Is it god who punishes or is it the accruing of negative karma which leads to misfortune?

It depends on what attributes you would like God to have. Does God know the future with 100% accuracy? Did God know even before Hitler was born that 6 million Jews would be slaughtered? If God knew that, did Hitler really have the choice of not slaughtering 6 million Jews?

Now, things become more interesting to discuss if you believe God cannot have knowledge of the future. In that case, God cannot be accused of any misfortune that befalls us. It is pure unadulterated free will. In this case, [where God does not know the future with 100% accuracy], I am currently inclined to believe that God compensated the innocent Jews in some fashion. That is, if you are an innocent victim of a crime, it leads to better compensatory Karma. If you are a deserving victim of a crime, your Karmic load decreases appropriately as you have "paid" for past moral actions.

yajvan
16 January 2012, 12:31 PM
hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

namasté


Does God know the future with 100% accuracy?

In Him (Isvara) the seed of omniscience has reached its utmost development which cannot be exceed. -
Yoga Darśana of Pātañjali muni. Chapter I, Samadhi Pada, sutra 25

If one was intererested in this whole idea of omniscience, this HDF post may be of interest.
http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showthread.php?t=2363&highlight=omniscience

praṇām

Mana
16 January 2012, 12:39 PM
Namaste Eric, All,

How can God punish him/her self?

Our desire creates the impression that we are being punished, that impression is karma; small eddies in the flow of time.

Who, or, what perceives punishment?

If God is not in Human form; does he still punish?
Is not our notion of punishment derived from that human form. If with that form, we also see human characteristics; They are a reflection of our selves upon him.

If punishment be defined as suffering with cause, can we not then say that; as is the nature of all forms of pain, it is a warning to stop doing some thing that is detrimental to our growth.

We suffer due to the lack of recognition and rectification, of the cause of the suffering.

We may perceive this as punishment.


praNAma

mana

rku
17 January 2012, 09:08 AM
Dear Vannakkam,

Re: Is it god who punishes or is it the accruing of negative karma which leads to misfortune?

Definitely BY CONVENTION it is only the karma which leads to the misfortune. But I wonder you should get over the these matters of misfortune, karma etc which are not a real one. Even the God is also Mayic. Only Brahman is truth. So as per me you should better progress forward. Sorry for any advances but this is what I sincerely feel.

saidevo
17 January 2012, 11:10 AM
namaste everyone.

Some thoughts on the question: 'Does God punish?'

• To understand the answer to this question in proper perspective, we might ask a similar question: 'Does the judge punish the criminal?'

• Who actually punishes a criminal? The state? The laws of the state? The administrators of these laws? Or the criminal himself by the act of his crime?

• Obviously, the judge only dispenses justice. In the same way, Ishvara--God, dispenses the fruits of our karma, which is why he is known as phala-dAta.

• The punishment of locking up the criminal in a prison is to make him repent and reform him so he could turn over a new leaf after he is released from the prison.

• The 'punishment' for us of being born in specific circumstances in life is thus a result of our janmAntara karma--karma of a former life, and this confinement is to enable us to reform ourselves so we turn over a new leaf in another life.

• What about the victim in this scenario, who suffered materially/physically/mentally/fatefully? The state's administrative laws try to compensate him (either from the criminal or otherwise); where this compensation is inadequate, we try to seek a spiritual answer in the janmAntara karma of the victim himself.

*****

1. What about crimes of genocide committed by persons like Hitler?

• What could be the answer to such extreme situations? If God is omniscient and knew about it beforehand, why did he allow it? Why did he create a person like Hitler in the first place? Do we have a perverted God here? If God is omnipotent, why did he not prevent the genocide? If God is omniscient, then that makes him the criminal as well as the victim!

2. What about the puranic stories of God destroying demons en masse, staying divine or taking human avatar? Do we have an angry, revengeful and violent God here?

While we can readily find an answer to our own sufferings and 'punishment' in our inviolable obligation to expend our karmic balance, we can only speculate the answer for the above two situations, depending on the religious traditions we subcribe to.

Perhaps the best way to understand it all is to know about the divine lakShaNas--attributes.

• God's divine attributes are two-fold: svarUpa lakShaNa--essential attributes, and tatasttha lakShaNa--manifest attributes. taittirIya upaniShad indicates what these two kinds of lakShaNas are:

• In its svarUpa lakShaNa--essential qualities,

सत्यं ज्ञानमनन्तं ब्रह्म ।

satyaM jnAnam anantaM brahma |

Brahman as the Transcendental Absolute is 'Real, Consciousness, Infinite'.

• In its tatasttha lakShaNa--manifest attributes,

यतो वा इमानि भूतानि जायन्ते ।
येन जातानि जीवन्ति ।
यत्प्रयन्त्यभिसंविशन्ति ।

yato vA imAni bhUtAni jAyante |
yena jAtAni jIvanti |
yatprayantyabhisaMvishanti |

Brahman is that from which all these beings take birth, that by which they live after being born, that towards which they move and into which they merge.

• To understand the nature of tatasttha lakShaNa, two popular examples are given:

01. A house might be indicated by such a statement as 'the house on whose compoud wall a crow is sitting now.'

02. A river might be indicated by what lies behind 'those cluster of trees'.

Since the house is otherwise unidenfiable and the river is not visible right now, we describe them using indicative objects that are not essentially part of them. Since we cannot know Brahman with our mind or senses, we seek to describe it with its manifest attributes that appear to make him saguNa--qualified.

• Incidentally, saguNa brahman as manifest bhagavAn is usually spoken of with two sets of attributes:

01. jnAnam--Omniscience, aishvaryam--Sovereignty, shakti--energy, balam--Strength, vIryam--Vigour/valour, tejas--Splendour.

02. jnAnam--Omniscience, vairAgyam--Detachment, yashas--Fame, aishvaryam--Sovereignty, shrI--Glory, and dharma--Righteousness.

Understanding the svarUpa and tatasttha lakShaNas of Brahman could throw more light on why everything that happens is described as his lIlA.

kallol
24 January 2012, 10:41 AM
As far as I understand :

There is no punishment or reward by God. God only gives us the playing field to play.

If we get what we deserve out of our karma. Those karmas can span the continuous life through the different bodies.

What we are today is because of our past actions. What we will be tomorrow will be because of present and past.

The punishment and reward is a combination of the sense of our mind the reaction from the surroundings (society, environment, etc) towards the body.

The whole thing is karma driven.

Tāṇḍava
24 January 2012, 12:55 PM
it is our own bad actions(karma) that causes suffering to other people which constitutes to negative karma results.

If everyone is considered to be god, then yes, it is god who does the punishment.

Yes, in a real sense we punish ourselves. At another level we just grow - the punishment is not punishment and the earthly rewards are not rewards. They are just a means to keeping on the track to god.

anisha_astrologer
25 January 2012, 01:39 AM
God doesn't punish. We reap what we sow. whatever good or bad happens is an outcome of our own actions.:)

shian
25 January 2012, 01:46 AM
Some peoples get sick then they pray : "Thank God, you love me."
Some peoples get sick then they pray : "Oh God, why you leave me. Why you not cure my diseases."

johans
22 March 2012, 06:56 PM
.....

Akram Fakir
02 April 2012, 12:04 AM
I am Muslim.Can i say something about Islamic view here?
Or where is the side to talk with the other religion?

wundermonk
02 April 2012, 10:33 AM
I am Muslim.Can i say something about Islamic view here?
Or where is the side to talk with the other religion?

In general, there is little tolerance for Islam on HDF.

This is because Islam has massacred Hindus over the centuries by preaching "my way or the highway to hell, your dirty idolatrous polytheistic pagan Hindu". The blood of Hindus shed by the sword of Islam makes Hitler's slaughter of the Jews look like a walk in the park on a nice warm sunny day.

That said, salam, and welcome to HDF.

Eastern Mind
02 April 2012, 10:40 AM
deleted ... will wait and see.

McKitty
02 April 2012, 11:01 AM
Hello

Sorry but I think this is not the right subject to post on

But can I ask something : did he burn a temple or massacred someone himself ? If not, I don't see any reason for him to apologise. If he comes to post about how Islam is superior and that everyone here is doomed to hell ect ect...Then, he will have to apologise.

Some here have spoken about tolerance. I think this is the right moment to show it and see what he have to offer or not. If you start judging someone by is faith alone, then you are not different of the christian saying stupid things to you because you are Hindu. We are not judged by our face, but by our actions.

Salam to you then, and welcome.

wundermonk
02 April 2012, 11:22 AM
But can I ask something : did he burn a temple or massacred someone himself ? If not, I don't see any reason for him to apologise.

Nope. Instead of doing Dawah on a Hindu website, it is generally better for a Mohammedan to do Dawah and secularize Islamic countries where non-Mohammedans are given a raw deal.

Hinduism is not allowed in the Arab countries. My father's friend once was wearing a talisman of Hanuman around his neck and tried to enter Saudi Arabia. The custom's official there suggested that unless that was removed and hidden, he would not be allowed entry into the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia.

Tolerance is a two-way street.

Mohammedans need to show that they are tolerant by their actions instead of words.

NayaSurya
02 April 2012, 11:34 AM
I am Muslim.Can i say something about Islamic view here?
Or where is the side to talk with the other religion?

Goodness:p

Beloved Akram, your very first post here and you choose not to say hello...not to introduce yourself. But, immediately ask to post about a muslim view?

So you will have to excuse members for being a bit shy to respond, or respond the way they do.


This thread was created in the God in Hindu Dharma section of the forum. Which means this question is seeking a Hindu opinion about God of Hindu Dharma.

For the section where this forum discusses Islam-

Please see here-

http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/forumdisplay.php?f=24

Mana
02 April 2012, 11:36 AM
I am Muslim.Can i say something about Islamic view here?
Or where is the side to talk with the other religion?

Namaste Akram Fakir,

It is customary here to make a short introduction over in the introductions folder on joining the forum; welcome to HDF.

Here (http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/forumdisplay.php?f=15)

Your choice of thread for an introduction, was well .... lets put it down to karma; (which translates as love and cause of action, amongst other things). These topics can get quite fiery, quite apt for the thread but still best tread lightly here, freedom of speech does still apply on the internet (just).

Your opinion and thoughts are of course welcome, but bear in mind that this is a Hindu forum, there is an Abrahamic Folder here (http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/forumdisplay.php?f=21) under which you will find Islam as a sub heading along with Christianity and Judaism ...

Many here are very open minded, it is a goal of sanAtana dharma to open ones heart and ones mind. Wit that said I should pay attention to ones choice of words as at times simply the misinterpretation of language between sects can start all kinds of nonsense.

Feel free to browse, and make your self at home. I hope that you learn positive things about your life's path here.


praNAma

mana

Believer
02 April 2012, 11:43 AM
Namaste,

If I understand the forum rules correctly, there is a section for Abrahamic Religions for people belonging to those faiths to express their views. What is more; even there, the discussion has 1. to pertain to Abrahamic religions affecting Hinduism, and 2)not be derogatory to Hinduism. If my interpretation is wrong, I am sure I will be corrected by the moderators.

It is not improper to control the discussions and have them Hindu oriented, since this is a Hindu Forum. And this is not out of malice to anyone, but the Hindu forum should be about Hinduism and not about a hodgepodge of Universalitic view points. There is already enough of that out there on the Internet to fill people's curiosity.

Now getting back to the OP's question.........

Pranam.

Adhvagat
02 April 2012, 04:02 PM
God does punish. Specially people who ask wheter he does it or not, just to make his point accross.

Aum namah Śivāya
08 April 2012, 05:14 PM
नमस्ते

I do not believe that God punishes. That's what karma is for. I believe that karma is more or less impartial, unbiased, scientific. It will come back sooner or later. It's not punishment, it's just the way things work.

But I do believe that for the sincere, those who want to overcome their karma, or make it easier to get through it, God will help with that. God is there when we approach sincerely. God does not abandon us in the time of need.

ॐ नमः शिवाय

ZarryT
16 May 2012, 07:02 AM
Whenever there's a yes / no question in this context the answer is always "yes AND no, both and neither".

For god, if you mean Brahman, to punish anyone or anything is the same as punishing itself.


Before rebirth, every life must come to terms with itself to the highest degree that it can. This may entail suffering, this suffering is not necessarily equivalent with a punishment, since it is self-inflicted: it is how you respond to the truths about yourself, both light and dark.

ZarryT
16 May 2012, 07:09 AM
It depends on what attributes you would like God to have. Does God know the future with 100% accuracy? Did God know even before Hitler was born that 6 million Jews would be slaughtered? If God knew that, did Hitler really have the choice of not slaughtering 6 million Jews?

Now, things become more interesting to discuss if you believe God cannot have knowledge of the future. In that case, God cannot be accused of any misfortune that befalls us. It is pure unadulterated free will. In this case, [where God does not know the future with 100% accuracy], I am currently inclined to believe that God compensated the innocent Jews in some fashion. That is, if you are an innocent victim of a crime, it leads to better compensatory Karma. If you are a deserving victim of a crime, your Karmic load decreases appropriately as you have "paid" for past moral actions.

God simultaneously does and does not know the future. But for God, time is a very different thing.
Consider that all things are from the will of God. The universe is maintained by God persisting in creating it. Every moment is generated directly from God; in a sense there is no past or future.

So it's not that God sees the future laid out like a timeline of events, but rather that the future is whatever God wants it to be, so there's nothing regarding the future for God to think about. God immediately knows what it wants and makes it happen in each subsequent moment; it never has to consider the future. Change is merely change in god's will.

If your fundamental self is equivalent with Brahman, then your own life is essentially based in that same immediate-representation-of-will. So on the one hand Hitler couldn't have done otherwise than he did, but on the other hand he could have - if he wanted to do otherwise. But, by virtue of being that character, Hitler, he never wanted otherwise.

wundermonk
17 May 2012, 01:51 AM
Every moment is generated directly from God; in a sense there is no past or future.

If there is no past or future - in other words - if there is no time, then nothing ever can happen. Things are frozen solid, including God!

I am aware of all arguments that try to resolve the omniscience vs free will debate. But I find none of them convincing.

Nyaya Darshana is probably the only school that does not explicitly make the claim that God knows the future. Also, time and space are immaterial substances that serves as the common causes of all change.

No space or no time? Then nothing can ever happen or come into being.

ZarryT
19 May 2012, 06:35 AM
If there is no past or future - in other words - if there is no time, then nothing ever can happen. Things are frozen solid, including God!

I am aware of all arguments that try to resolve the omniscience vs free will debate. But I find none of them convincing.

Nyaya Darshana is probably the only school that does not explicitly make the claim that God knows the future. Also, time and space are immaterial substances that serves as the common causes of all change.

No space or no time? Then nothing can ever happen or come into being.

In the same way that one thought follows another in your mind, the passing moments of time precede and follow one another in the god mind; god isn't frozen in time - time is change, and change is merely change in the content of god's mind.

The point of being alive as a human being is so that god can get away from / have a holiday from being god (brahman) - so that it can exist in a state where the future is unknown and where it can act and make decisions.

For god there is no space and no time in which it finds itself - all space and time on the other hand, in the very way we perceive them, are found inside god (brahman).

If god is everywhere, everything that will ever be - then nothing changes for it unless it enters a mortal life in which it can perceive itself linearly rather than entirely at once.

kallol
19 May 2012, 09:45 AM
I feel bad for Akram. He only asked for permission. Are we so inconfident to defend our position or stick to our scriptures because someone is giving his view from another side ?

That way we have so many sects with different interpretations.

I would not mind shutting one up, if he is abusive or intolerant but I believe healthy discussions should have its own space.

Ganeshprasad
19 May 2012, 12:41 PM
Pranam

does god punish?well let us ask the question does a judge punish?

since there is order in the universe, it should follow that there must be laws that governs it.

Lord Krishna clearly says he neither takes anyone's paap or punya.

Karma is set in perpetual motion how it works is difficult to ascertain, works it does, what is the function of Dharma raja YamRaja?

to say God punish is wrong, but justice is served for that there is no doubt.

Jai Shree Krishna