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MahaHrada
15 January 2012, 07:41 AM
"
I recently read that the German Govt is being asked to clear the names of innocent women they burnt as witches just three centuries ago. Now that is an example of religious institution- sanctioned atrocity.Would they clear the matter for people and apologise for the 300 year old atrocities? I doubt.


Ahh... thats what you have read? The german govt. ignore crimes they have not comitted? Shock Horror! Must be foul play of the adharmic, christian hindu hating western governments

Maybe instead of caring whether the german government will clear the names of people murdered as witches by the christian Inquistors hundreds of years ago, you should spent a thought about what happens to witches today in this punya bhumi, the home of sanatana dharma, the religion of truth, in the name of this very religion and of hindu society, with the help of village elders and the local panchayats and local village priesthood-shamans?

Hundreds of woman that are murdered and tortured because they are judged to be witches in India every year nowadays in even one province only!

According to you this can´t even be blamend on any aryan vs tribal culture rift, since this is invented by the "anti hindu" western scholars.

I don´t know why Hindus need any of these "anti hindus" to destroy the dharma, you do that job yourself much better without any foreign aid.

According to the Free Legal Aid Committee, which seeks punishment for such attacks, 536 women have been slain in the last 10 years in just two districts of Bihar, India's witch-killing hub. Unofficial estimates say at least 200 women are killed as witches across India each year.

But many cases go unreported in remote areas of Bihar, an eastern state where the Ho and Santhal tribes live. These clans lived for centuries in deep forests, surviving on its produce and taking little from the outside world. They hunt with bows, worship nature and swear loyalty to the village headman.

Women accused of witchcraft are dragged into the forest and hacked, hanged or burned to death. Heads of children have been smashed on rocks. Even nonfatal cases are ghastly. Women suffer smashed teeth, shaved heads or chopped-off breasts. Others have been forced to eat excrement or to strip and walk naked through villages.

http://articles.latimes.com/2000/sep/17/news/mn-22369


Unidentified attackers hacked to death five villagers accused of practicing witchcraft in northeastern India, officials said Tuesday.
The deaths take the toll of people believed to have been killed over sorcery allegations to at least nine in the past two weeks in a remote part of Assam state, where many indigenous tribes believe in witchcraft.
...
More than 150 people have been killed in the northeast in the past five years after being accused of practicing witchcraft or sorcery.



http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/08/22/world/main1918803.shtml

and so on....

do a google search on Witch hunt india if you like these kind of stories.

sm78
15 January 2012, 08:16 AM
According to the Free Legal Aid Committee, which seeks punishment for such attacks, 536 women have been slain in the last 10 years in just two districts of Bihar, India's witch-killing hub. Unofficial estimates say at least 200 women are killed as witches across India each year.

But many cases go unreported in remote areas of Bihar, an eastern state where the Ho and Santhal tribes live. These clans lived for centuries in deep forests, surviving on its produce and taking little from the outside world. They hunt with bows, worship nature and swear loyalty to the village headman.

Women accused of witchcraft are dragged into the forest and hacked, hanged or burned to death. Heads of children have been smashed on rocks. Even nonfatal cases are ghastly. Women suffer smashed teeth, shaved heads or chopped-off breasts. Others have been forced to eat excrement or to strip and walk naked through villages.

http://articles.latimes.com/2000/sep/17/news/mn-22369


Unidentified attackers hacked to death five villagers accused of practicing witchcraft in northeastern India, officials said Tuesday.
The deaths take the toll of people believed to have been killed over sorcery allegations to at least nine in the past two weeks in a remote part of Assam state, where many indigenous tribes believe in witchcraft.
...
More than 150 people have been killed in the northeast in the past five years after being accused of practicing witchcraft or sorcery.



http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/08/22/world/main1918803.shtml

and so on....

do a google search on Witch hunt india if you like these kind of stories.

No us Hindus, don't want to hear about our shortcomings and barbarism that still go unchecked. If something is wrong there must be a white or a christian, sometimes sitting few thousand miles away from the scene of crime, who is responsible.

Bihar & UP have a particularly good reputation with these things. Most of the time this is a ploy to rob women of their properties or done by other enemies - but there is nothing like religious superstition to drum up support for personal greed among the others.

Sahasranama
15 January 2012, 08:28 AM
That is some disturbing stuff, it shows that there is a lot of superstition in tribal areas (or at least superstition is used as an excuse for personal gain).


No us Hindus, don't want to hear about our shortcomings and barbarism that still go unchecked. If something is wrong there must be a white or a christian, sometimes sitting few thousand miles away from the scene of crime, who is responsible.I agree that this is an easy scape goat, but it depends on the situation who is to blame.

MahaHrada
15 January 2012, 09:02 AM
No us Hindus, don't want to hear about our shortcomings and barbarism that still go unchecked. If something is wrong there must be a white or a christian, sometimes sitting few thousand miles away from the scene of crime, who is responsible.

Bihar & UP have a particularly good reputation with these things. Most of the time this is a ploy to rob women of their properties or done by other enemies - but there is nothing like religious superstition to drum up support for personal greed among the others.

The "I am the victim" and if anything is wrong "let´s blame someone else" game is what todays hindu society is fairly good at, and not only at the tribal level, on the political, social, within hindu activism everywhere, just look at the recent quite well organised smear campaign or "witch hunt" of hindu groups against western yoga and yogis , some people began throwing stones not only at Westerners but even at open minded formerly respected indian teachers like Iyengar.

The moral rule coming from those that identify themselves too loud as "true Hindus" in todays indian society seems to be at the moment: if you are not good at anything yourself and have no constructive ideas that would be respected, you still have the option to trample down others to get on top.

Some hindus really know the magic formula of how to turn their allies to enemies and make enemies their friends.

The funny thing is first these people indulge in hard core smear campaigns against their friends and allies when they see the result is not too friendly-surprise surprise ! and people don´t bother to throw more $ after them, they play the victim card as Rampuri baba did recently when uninvited.

Sahasranama
15 January 2012, 09:09 AM
What happened with Rampuri Baba?

MahaHrada
15 January 2012, 09:15 AM
What happened with Rampuri Baba?

New york kumbh mela cancelled no $$$ my guess is only perverts pay to be insulted.

Sahasranama
15 January 2012, 09:18 AM
That sounds like a joke, a kumbh mela in new york.

http://notnewyork.org/2011/04/25/sadhus-in-the-states-hakim-bey-in-a-parking-lot-new-york-city-as-super-sacred/

MahaHrada
15 January 2012, 09:26 AM
That sounds like a joke, a kumbh mela in new york.

http://notnewyork.org/2011/04/25/sadhus-in-the-states-hakim-bey-in-a-parking-lot-new-york-city-as-super-sacred/

Of course Kumbh mela in New york is a joke, it is only possible at the banks of Mother Tamas in Londinium, England.

Hmm i am posting in HDF so probably i have to add a :)

Sahasranama
15 January 2012, 09:37 AM
Would they go skinny dipping too?

Flowing Along
15 January 2012, 11:56 AM
Namaste MahaHrada, SM


Ahh... thats what youhave read? The german govt. ignore crimes they have not comitted? Shock Horror!Must be foul play of the adharmic, christian hindu hating western governments


This angry outburst puts words in to other people's message reply box .Butmeans very little otherwise.

Where have I used words such as you say I'd use [ Adarmic, anti-Hindu etcetc] or logic like " They did that, not me?"

No where.

Why no word on the idea on what I say in the beginning itself -the basic difference between religion-sanctionedevils and social evils the latter one that has been fought against well byHindu social reformers since a century -they dared to defy existing socialnorms at grave personal risk?

Narayana Guru, Ayya Vaikuntar, Subramania Bharathi.

Pls google about them and read.


No us Hindus, don'twant to hear about our shortcomings and barbarism that still go unchecked. Ifsomething is wrong there must be a white or a christian, sometimes sitting fewthousand miles away from the scene of crime, who is responsible.



If it is proved the perpetrators of these horrible crimes are Hindus to "uphold Hindusim or whatever ,what good Hinduwould justify this? I won’t. What makes you think I would? Where have I saidthese crimes have white, Christians behind them?

What I see here from both my brothers is an angry reaction that's all.

The same angry reaction you accuse someone of baselessly, without reading ,or thinking over their response.

Pls read this carefully.

I started my comment about the difference between religion sanctioned evils and social evils.

And gave as an example, pls note , an example , the German one where evenafter centuries it is hard for people to accept the wrongs of the past so as tomove on.

We choose to believe what our media says never mind they have been actingquite funny since 10 years , those Indian media watchers of any belief sytemknow this.

They throw around stories that'd put any fiction writer to shame and when itis proved wrong they never apologise or make amends.

THey arent accountable to anyone .We never show the same anger that I seehere in this response to me towards theirlack of ethics .


But if it is true , I won’t blame unconnected others for thisand will expect law to punish the perpetrators of the crime only.

I am making my stand very clear. The original poster laments the gory crimeas well as the labeling of a large religious group that doesn’t think as ablock. I go with that opinion

Hope you can see the logic this time.

By MH
"
"The "I am the victim" and ifanything is wrong "let´s blame someone else" game is what todayshindu society is fairly good at, and not only at the tribal level, on thepolitical, social, within hindu activism everywhere, just look at the recentquite well organised smear campaign or "witch hunt" of hindu groupsagainst western yoga and yogis , some people began throwing stones not only atWesterners but even at open minded formerly respected indian teachers likeIyengar.

The moral rule coming from those that identify themselves too loud as"true Hindus" in todays indian society seems to be at the moment: ifyou are not good at anything yourself and have no constructive ideas that wouldbe respected, you still have the option to trample down others to get on top.

Some hindus really know the magic formula of how to turn their allies toenemies and make enemies their friends.

The funny thing is first these people indulge in hard core smear campaignsagainst their friends and allies when they see the result is not toofriendly-surprise surprise ! and people don´t bother to throw more $ afterthem, they play the victim card as Rampuri baba did recently when uninvited".

Wrong .The Hindu society is not good atthis at all. They aren’t half good at listing out the injustices they suffer,as they are scared of tirades like these.

This is a lot of bashing, that is not atall relevant to the issue I point.
Plsread , I summarise.

1.Any social evil In India [ consideringthis sudden spate of witch hunt news is true] is blamed on Hinduism when anydecent Hindus would want the criminals punished. Even for arguments sake if we believepeople cry “ me victim, me victim” nosensible Govt. would/should bow down to their pressure tactics. No centralauthority /religious math would mess with the law of the land.

2. It is sometimes hard for Governments of developed nationsto think freely as we live in sensitive times.I wanted to point that out , if it is hard for developed nations, India is not a mature democracy yet and the Governing party is in power thanks to many smaller parties and this makes their job harder. but many Govts are making sincere efforts and we see the examples throughout History. The Western World has made great strides in protecting individual rights.. As an ordinaryHindu I am the first to applaud when I see this happening .Still a lot needs to be done.

Finally why all this self –loathing ?

3.What Hindu groups are holding candle light vigils topressure Govt in to not taking action on criminals because they are Hindu? Ifthey are, be upset with them .Pressurise Govt to deliver justice without bendingdown to religion groups if the situation comes to that.

I also mentioned about early “ interventions” with tribals ,apparently this doesn’t interest you enough to think or analyse why we see manysuch reports suddenly and why in these states ?

Flowing Along
15 January 2012, 12:05 PM
Namaste MahaHrada, SM


Ahh... thats what youhave read? The german govt. ignore crimes they have not comitted? Shock Horror!Must be foul play of the adharmic, christian hindu hating western governments



This angry outburst puts words in to other people's message reply box .Butmeans very little otherwise.

Where have I used words such as you say I'd use [ Adarmic, anti-Hindu etcetc] or logic like " They did that, not me?"

No where.

Why no word on the idea on what I say in the beginning itself -the basic difference between religion-sanctionedevils and social evils the latter one that has been fought against well byHindu social reformers since a century -they dared to defy existing socialnorms at grave personal risk?

Narayana Guru, Ayya Vaikuntar, Subramania Bharathi.

Pls google about them and read.


No us Hindus, don'twant to hear about our shortcomings and barbarism that still go unchecked. Ifsomething is wrong there must be a white or a christian, sometimes sitting fewthousand miles away from the scene of crime, who is responsible.




If it is proved the perpetrators of these horrible crimes are Hindus to "uphold Hindusim or whatever ,what good Hinduwould justify this? I won’t. What makes you think I would? Where have I saidthese crimes have white, Christians behind them?

What I see here from both my brothers is an angry reaction that's all.

The same angry reaction you accuse someone of baselessly, without reading ,or thinking over their response.

Pls read this carefully.

I started my comment about the difference between religion sanctioned evils and social evils.

And gave as an example, pls note , an example , the German one where evenafter centuries it is hard for people to accept the wrongs of the past so as tomove on.

We choose to believe what our media says never mind they have been actingquite funny since 10 years , those Indian media watchers of any belief sytemknow this.

They throw around stories that'd put any fiction writer to shame and when itis proved wrong they never apologise or make amends.

THey arent accountable to anyone .We never show the same anger that I seehere in this response to me towards theirlack of ethics .


But if it is true , I won’t blame unconnected others for thisand will expect law to punish the perpetrators of the crime only.

I am making my stand very clear. The original poster laments the gory crimeas well as the labeling of a large religious group that doesn’t think as ablock. I go with that opinion

Hope you can see the logic this time.

By MH
"
"The "I am the victim" and ifanything is wrong "let´s blame someone else" game is what todayshindu society is fairly good at, and not only at the tribal level, on thepolitical, social, within hindu activism everywhere, just look at the recentquite well organised smear campaign or "witch hunt" of hindu groupsagainst western yoga and yogis , some people began throwing stones not only atWesterners but even at open minded formerly respected indian teachers likeIyengar.

The moral rule coming from those that identify themselves too loud as"true Hindus" in todays indian society seems to be at the moment: ifyou are not good at anything yourself and have no constructive ideas that wouldbe respected, you still have the option to trample down others to get on top.

Some hindus really know the magic formula of how to turn their allies toenemies and make enemies their friends.

The funny thing is first these people indulge in hard core smear campaignsagainst their friends and allies when they see the result is not toofriendly-surprise surprise ! and people don´t bother to throw more $ afterthem, they play the victim card as Rampuri baba did recently when uninvited".

Wrong .The Hindu society is not good atthis at all. They aren’t half good at listing out the injustices they suffer,as they are scared of tirades like these.

This is a lot of bashing, that is not atall relevant to the issue I point.
Plsread , I summarise.

1.Any social evil In India [ consideringthis sudden spate of witch hunt news is true] is blamed on Hinduism when anydecent Hindus would want the criminals punished. Even for arguments sake if we believepeople cry “ me victim, me victim” nosensible Govt. would/should bow down to their pressure tactics. No centralauthority /religious math would mess with the law of the land.

2. It is sometimes hard for Governments of developed nationsto think freely as we live in sensitive times.I wanted to point that out , if it is hard for developed nations, India is not a mature democracy yet and the Governing party is in power thanks to many smaller parties and this makes their job harder. but many Govts are making sincere efforts and we see the examples throughout History. The Western World has made great strides in protecting individual rights.. As an ordinaryHindu I am the first to applaud when I see this happening .Still a lot needs to be done.

Finally why all this self –loathing ?

3.What Hindu groups are holding candle light vigils topressure Govt in to not taking action on criminals because they are Hindu? Ifthey are, be upset with them .Pressurise Govt to deliver justice without bendingdown to religion groups if the situation comes to that.

I also mentioned about early “ interventions” with tribals ,apparently this doesn’t interest you enough to think or analyse why we see manysuch reports suddenly and why in these states ?


While one may choose not to see things from different angles but still one can try to see points raised by someone else without feeling the need to do a general lumping together of people in to some group as having some characteristics or habits. Try to see things case to case instead of saying " All these people are like this, or that "

TTCUSM
15 January 2012, 12:47 PM
Fighting superstition can be a double edge sword. The reform movements also fought superstition, but to such an extent that they tried to discard the whole of Hinduism minus some agnihotra and japa.

When you refer to "reform movements", are you referring to Arya Samaj?
The Arya Samaj was founded in 1875 by Swami Dayananda Saraswati, and got rid of everything except for the agnihotra, which they perform twice a day.

The Brahmo Samaj tried to turn Hinduism into a carbon copy of Christianity. They got rid of everything except for a monotheistic creator god.

Personally, I think ISKCON is the best reform movement. They focus on the Bhagavad Gita, which advocates Karma Yoga (action). It is only through Karma Yoga that people can be lifted out of ignorance and poverty.

MahaHrada
15 January 2012, 01:04 PM
Namaste MahaHrada, SM
Try to see things case to case instead of saying " All these people are like this, or that "

[/SIZE]

I stopped posting on this Forum since it is meant to positively represent Hinduism, with alll the aggresion hindus have towards unbiased statements especially from westerners, i cannot support this aim anymore, i have stopped posting here, now this thread was just too much. Even if something that obviously bad happens as cutting out the liver of an abducted child, the "lets blame others" game starts. Hmm lets try something new....what about blaming western scholars and western govts. and Christians? Please understand and forgive me that therefore i will not go into details to refute your long posting.

Only one thing you say "what kind of good hindu will justify that" concerning that i like to ask you:

Who decides who is a good hindu or not? Much what is todays norm of a "good hindu" was originally what the british advocated. Apparently not even 300 years ago but only 1860 ce it was the british raj that made the first law against narabali (human sacrifice) and sati before there where daily human sacrifces at shakta pithas at many places and up to several hundred at each occasion of Navararatri at important pithas like Kamakhya, less than 200 years ago.

A few years ago some pithadipathis of the shankara mutts were all in tears about changes to Hindu societal norms, that sati dowry and child marriage was to be abondend and this is just the tip of an iceberg of social injustice that is promoted from high seats of powerful institutions of Hindu dharma. Are these good hindus or not ? Can you decide that? Do you think the witch hunters think they are bad hindus? I discussed this topic in another newsgroup a few hindus said that these witches ,aghoris and vamacharis are dangerous and are dealt with in the correct way, people that have access to a computer and can obviously read and write wrote that, no tribals. Same reaction in an older thread on vamachara on this forum, respected posters of HDF were openly supporting the lynching of Vamacharis. No second thoughts here, Followers of advaita vedanta modern educated hindus, are they good hindus?

And if we read of abductions and child sacrifices by local "tantrics" can we say there appears to be indeed "something" that has to be dealt with, or am i wrong?

This year it was the first time ever in the history of the sringeri mutt that a non dvija was given opportunity to study in sringeri mutt and this long overdue act will shurely not be replicated, but only used as an excuse how liberal the orthodox institutions have become, though nonetheless it should be applauded. What is a good hindu here? Are they bad Hindus because they allow Non dvijas to study the vedas? Or good? There will be at least two opinions about that. Apparently there are so many deep seated problem in Hinduism today that nobody wants to face, that causes Hindus to go and almost instinctively blame others most of the time foreigners, of being anti-hindu when there is anything else but uniform laudatory praise of the superiority of the special kind of the only true sanathana dharma they profess to belive in. And it matters little if your opponents belive in burning witches, or the kundalini yoga of latest scandalous sex swami Nitty or in the authority of the orthodox mutts, they are always the true good hindus" the others especially the westerner always the "anti hindu".
I personally am fed up by this attitude.

Flowing Along
15 January 2012, 02:34 PM
Namaste MH

Istopped posting on this Forum since it is meant to positively representHinduism, with alll the aggresion hindus have towards westerners i cannotsupport this aim anymore, i have stopped postinghere , now this thread was justtoo much. Please understand and forgive me that i will not go into details torefute your long posting.

Only one thing you say "what kind of good hindu will justify that"

Who decides who is a good hindu or not? Much what is todays norm of a"good hindu" was originally british. Apparently not even 300 yearsago but only 1860 ce it was the british raj that made the first law againstnarabali and sati before there where daily human sacrifces at shakta pithas atmany places and up to several hundred at each occasion of Navararatri atimportant pithas like Kamakhya, less than 100 years ago.

Thought inadvertently I had triggered some issues here .I was right.Wemay well be talking on two completely different frequencies. Yet, I’ll do mybest to answer these issues raised by you.

1. I am new but imho yes, this forum is meant to represent Hinduism positively but I am sure NOT at the cost of truth or justice.

I am very sure most members here are open -minded enough to admit the ills plaguing their society BECAUSE they are like me, want to make things healthy for everyone. No one wants brushing bad stuff under heavy carpets.

One thing this forum isn’t for is to negatively represent Hinduism for the sake of doing so. We have our popular media for that job,thanks.

“A good Hindu” isn’t someone who’d think as part of a big group , instead he usesor should use his conscience to decide between right and wrong. And to uphold Dharma as best as he can without hurting anyone.

Ifhe has to pull up his own brother for the wrong doing done to some body else he’ddo it .
Tribals or English speaking, all Hindus know they are personally responsiblefor their moksha so NO “Think as part of a group and suspend your critical thinking NOW!”

If you think the colonizers reformed the “savages” , sorry, nothing I say will ever reach you .Still to complete what I started and for anyone who may be reading this later…

2, Regarding stuff like hundreds of narabali, please read what Swami Vivekananda says about...false propaganda.


“A few years ago some pithadipathis ofthe shankara mutts were all in tears that sati and child marriage was abondendand this is just the tip of an iceberg of social injustice that is promotedfrom high seats of powefful institutions of Hindu dharma. Are they good hindusor not ? Can you decide that? Do you think the witch hunters think they are badhindus? I discused this topic in another newsgroup a few hindus said that thesewitches aghoris and vamacharis are dangerous and are dealt with in the correctway, people that have access to a computer and can obviously read and write wrotethat, no tribals. Same reaction in an older thread on vamachara on this forum,respected posters of HDF were openly supporting the lynching of Vamacharis.”

The former head of the Kanchi math explicitly stated that [ though he was for marrying offgirls at an young age] , “ Adhere to the rule of the land, if they say 18 is the bare minimum , pls don’t delay the marriage of your daughters well beyond for the income they may bring.”

Sati?More negative propaganda than truth .One, it was an exception rather than a rule. It was a woman’s choice. If in later cases this was forced , this was a case of evil minds hiding behind scriptures twisting them as they wished.

I have heard nonsense that state the original Sati herself did so as Siva harassed her! It is about atma-nivedhan and the adyatmik meanings are many for that account.But if one doesn’t want to hear of it they’d interpret stuff their own way whichmay be a very wrong way. But a Hindu simply puts forwards arguments, in thehope that everyone believes in the good rules of arguments. Have patience, will use.

And you may know Sankara maths are not any kind of central Hindu authority, no math is.We can all live , co exist , not necessarily need to be controlled by one HUGE central power. That means absolute power andwe know what it does.

As for Vamachara or aghoris, no general lumping will get us near the truth again.

Please read Dr. David Frawley’s thoughts on this. He is a Westerner too, but I am looking at what he says .His background doesn’t bother me at all.

Tantra is a valid part of Hinduism, contrary to what people may think. People can getpowers if they practice this art and Science the way it should be but if theymisuse it to harm others or take money for helping people even , the doubleedged sword cuts them .i.e. they get punished by their own deeds. I ve seenthis happen to a man who misused tantra. In cases like these cause and effectmay work faster than usual but...

…But,BUT, a normal, "good Hindu" feels the people who misuse tantra [ pls note :no general lumping as tantrics] should still be punished by the law of the land.Plain and simple. So what if he is a puja –doing Hindu? He harms people.He shouldbe punished. No falling back on some math or other no show of strength in a big city ,well shown by TV.

The reality a Hindu believes in doesn’t take sides.

You use mantra/tantra for helping people , you prosper, you harm people, yousuffer. No matter who you are.


And if we read of abductions and childsacrifices by local "tantrics" can we say there appears to be indeed"something" that has to be dealt with, or am i wrong?



Yes, there is crime to be dealt with verystrictly if proved true and it should be . If you are talking about that you are not wrong.


This year it was the first time ever in the history of the sringeri mutt that anon dvija was given opportunity to study in sringeri mutt and this long overdueact will shurely not be replicated, but only used as an excuse how liberal theorthodox institutions have become, though nonetheless it should be applauded,apparently there are so many deep seated problem in Hinduism today that nobodywants to face, that causes Hindus to go and almost instinctively blame othersmost of the time foreigners, of being anti-hindu.

I heard about the Sringeri math’s recent decision –no, it may be replicated ,this is no PR stunt. Hindu maths have been evolving just like the path itself,in the absence of divisive politics /meddling politicians [ pls note: this is truly desi ! No one is blaming the West ‘] good changes will happen in time.

“So many deep seated problems”-as I said there is no group think, there is no one HUGE power center, and in the absence of any meddling by some divisive political parties any problems/disease that are there can be cured very soon . This fact itself may bother some.:rolleyes:

"I personally am fed up by this attitude."

Please dont be as this problem doesn't exist here, may be elsewhere, but not here for the reasons I explained above as best i could.

Pranams

TTCUSM
15 January 2012, 03:12 PM
MH,

You mentioned sacrifices taking place at the Kalighat temple.
Last year, I discovered that it was simply a myth, and no actual sacrifices took place. Please see this thread (http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showthread.php?t=6632).

MahaHrada
15 January 2012, 04:26 PM
If you think that practices that where opposed to the moral of the british like child marriage, Sati, Narabali, Self mutilations, Bharat Natyam, erotic chakrapuja and self-sacrifices, ritual suicides like jala samadhi, body mutilations by tapas etc. are only due to propaganda and were not and partly still are widespread and a normal part of Indian societal norms during and before the colonial times and even now in some places you are mistaken.

It was for instance 1956 when the head of sringeri math took jala samadhi, a lot of the other stuff is still quite common like sadhus that mutilate their bodies crush their sexual organs to a pulp etc. but Hindus are concerned about the "misuse" of Yoga and start a campaign when western woman are practising yoga to get a sexy butt, but think it is just fine when in traditional Yoga orders like the Naga Babas a lot of young men smash their genitals to a pulp when they get Sannyas diksha.

I am not against all these practices probably much less than you are, people can do what they like as long they hurt no one innocent, but what is sick is to constantly blame western scholars,journalists, govts. yogis or tantrics of "misusing" and misunderstanding and demeaning Hinduism at every step on the way while indian sadhus can crush their genitals, bury their head in the sand while standing upside down drill holes in their bodies to insert oil and burn as living lamps, tow cars with their penis, hold their arms up for 12 years until they are atrophied and all this is no misuse of Yoga, no not all, you must be an anti hindu to think that, no, this is sacred, but if a western lady does Yoga to get a healthy and _ ohh shock ohh horror- sexy body the professional "Hindu activist" talks about selfish misuse blasphemy and appropriation of ancient Yogadarshana. Even being immune to large doses of alcohol has just been declared in this forum in all earnest, as a Siddhi and Miracle of the Aghori Yogi. Well that all alcoholics can drink massive amounts of alcohol, and ingest doses other people would die from, does not even occur as a more plausible explanation to our happy converts. Welcome in Lalaland

Sahasranama
15 January 2012, 05:18 PM
So you want HAF to tell western yogis to smash their genitals?

MahaHrada
15 January 2012, 06:46 PM
So you want HAF to tell western yogis to smash their genitals?

Who started that campaign? i think rajiv malhotra pet disciple and main defender of sexy nitty, our viagrahamsa do they really know what a true Sannyassin has too do with his genitals?

I am only asking why do these type of hindu activists think they can attack their longstanding friends and supporters in the west and hope to get away with this?

JaiMaaDurga
15 January 2012, 09:37 PM
Namaste,

Pardon me for butting back in to this thread, but I did want to address the reason for my starting it in the first place. It certainly was not in a mind of "let's blame others" for the horrific act of abducting and murdering a child that I posted this in the first place, and there is nothing objectionable to me about shedding as much light as possible on acts that are vile and shameful... the point of posting was to examine the motives behind the wording, promotion, and intended reception of such articles. It need not be a vast, conscious conspiracy; but does this mean that unconscious superiority complexes do not exist? Perhaps this older example will better illustrate:

http://xrlq.com/Images/lootfind.bmp
I am not trying to increase controversy or fan any flames, but I did not want to be misconstrued as to my meaning; if this thread is proving a detriment to HDF, by all means remove it.

JAI MATA DI

charitra
15 January 2012, 11:29 PM
" But many cases go unreported in remote areas of Bihar, an eastern state where the Ho and Santhal tribes live. These clans lived for centuries in deep forests, surviving on its produce and taking little from the outside world. They hunt with bows, worship nature and swear loyalty to the village headman."

Hmmm they certainly dont sound like hindus, do they? If they dont want to change their ways wih the changing times what options do we responsible citizens have? Send the social workers and remove kids from those ghettos which is what happens in civilized world ? I think so. Waco, Texas and Branch Davidian massacre comes to mind. Another important thing. The seven sister states in northeast have been successfully evangelized in case some of you are not aware of it. The majority are not hindus, they are christians, mostly baptists and Protestants. More crosses are seen there than Oms. The MPs are christians by faith, Miss Sangma is one such big name from those states.. All hindu festivals are banned in Manipur, Mizoram,Tripura etc. The 'separatists hold a Kalashnikov in one hand a Bible in the other'. Before someone gets tempted to get noisy, please understand I rerad this in Guardian sometime last year and the reporter was an Englishman who spent a few days visiting the areas.. Hindus as always didnt intervene and now live in fear there. Only Army can live without any fear in those remote parts of the nation.Namaste.

Sahasranama
16 January 2012, 02:25 AM
Who started that campaign? i think rajiv malhotra pet disciple and main defender of sexy nitty, our viagrahamsa do they really know what a true Sannyassin has too do with his genitals?

I am only asking why do these type of hindu activists think they can attack their longstanding friends and supporters in the west and hope to get away with this?

If we are talking about Rajiv Malhotra, I agree that he has been a first class hypocrite. If he would also criticise Nithyananda and Sai Baba equally, I would have a lot more respect for him.

sm78
16 January 2012, 04:12 AM
If we are talking about Rajiv Malhotra, I agree that he has been a first class hypocrite. If he would also criticise Nithyananda and Sai Baba equally, I would have a lot more respect for him.

Rajiv is a publicity seeking "intellectual" - his original bashing of so called Christian treat was to get some solid grounding among pro-hindutva crowd in US. Now he is hobnobbing with Jesuit scholar. I may be wrong, but I don't really care.

I think we are fussing over different and little things.

1. Prevelance of "superstition", quite rampant in some parts - One issue

2. Low morality standard among Indians and India - Another Issue

3. Criticism of westerners Interested in Hinduism or western hindus - Another Issue

4. Interest of Christians in the west, their nexus with Indian church and Maoists - Another Issue.

Even though one of them might have some influence on the other, we should remeber these are independent issue mostly.

I am more concerned with 1 & 2 as it is more pertinent, but accepting 1 & 2 doesn't mean there is no merit in 3 & 4.

In this forum, we on the other hand tend to completely brush aside 1 & 2 and always fall on 3 & 4 - mostly on #3 (jumbling it up with #4) which should be the least interesting and important topic for general Hindus. Hindus don't generally seek conversion, and number of western hindus are rather limited. If there is some misconception in this circle it is rather insignficant. Hinduism is not like Tibetan Buddhism which needs western patronage to survive.

The news item which started this thread had only relation to topics #1 and #2, but except me everybody saw it w.r.t #3 & #4 - and this is quite alarming. Many here tend to be westerners who have struggled with Christianity and western culture, and they are even more likely to fall for this syndrome than Indians in India.

In interest of protraying "Good" & "Positive" side, we may ignore incidents and topics related to #1 & #2, but one should try to avoid using them for #3 and #4 - makes no sense nor displays any positive merit in ourselves.

MahaHrada
16 January 2012, 07:11 AM
Even though one of them might have some influence on the other, we should remeber these are independent issue mostly.



What these things have in common is that one is the problem the other is the reaction to the problem.

1.) If there is a problem in business, society or religion and the reaction is to blame it on , or immediately use the opportunity to attack an enemy, this is done to deflect attention from the issue, it is a clear indication of an attempt to completly avoid change and of a supremacist mindset.

2.)If there is a problem and you attack a strawman, an imagined enemy, it becomes a pathological reaction, an issue of mental health. It is not rational anymore.

This is of course even worse than the first case. Time to go and look for proffesional counselling and help.

Extremists react in this pattern Hitler, Mao, Stalin, Pol pot, Che guevara, also the diverse Islamists nowadays they all use or used an imagined enemy to deflect attention and erect a reign of terror.

3.)Setting up your friends, supporters, and allies as strawman appears insane and is unheard of, but thats what is done by Rajiv Malhotra, and other Hindu activists like Rampuri Baba , the HAF etc right now, with their campaigns against yoga, a campaign that appears self destructive.

We find this pattern of infight also especially within extremist ideologies.

The fast growing expertise and the overall excellent quality of western Yoga teachers and Schools, nowadays after decades of western practiconers have contributed a lot that is unique to this topic even improving yoga by modern anatomical and therapeutic knowledge, this has become unwanted Competition to the godman business.

Hindu activists are most likely misused for spreading a business related agenda.

India could also profit from this enhanced scientific knowledge of yoga that has develped in the west but hindu activists have choosen instead of putting Yoga up as a strawman and demolishing it.

Flowing Along
17 January 2012, 06:57 AM
From SM's response
" 1.Prevelance of "superstition", quite rampant in someparts - One issue
2. Low morality standard among Indians and India - Another Issue"

Namste friends

We can start by

1. Understand Indian tribals are Hindus who happened to stay back inthe forests unlike us who learnt some “ sophistication”. There are NO folkdeities . Eg. A Pechayi is another form of VakDevi with the same attributes.
2. Read more on Indian History and World History to see “patterns”.For example a children’s picture encyclopedia talks about native Americansas” human sacrificers” .A child of tenmay have the smart to ask how they ALL disappeared.
suddenly [ rocks from outer space?!] . Whereas as adult mind lovesto delude itself and others.

3. Know History is written by victors,Stop believing all that’s reported by favorite newspapers . Useyour own power of analysis to discern news. [ rather than bash fellow, powerless Hindus] See all too obvious hints.
Check JaiMaDurga’s posting with the image and understand the difference in reporting andknow we are susceptible to the power of suggestion with words. Rise above it !
I ‘ll mention again, I am with that idea JMD puts there.

4.Be aware that there are Hindu groups and Swamis who work in the NEand some surrounding states against conversion. Their work not only goes unsung ,they get shot as well.

Point no 2 needlessly generalises , we need not do that . Thereare plenty of people who’re doing that.

SM says: "3. Criticism of westerners Interested in Hinduism or western hindus - AnotherIssue"
This again should not be a generalisation-all of them aren't good or bad . Take case to case.

SM :4. Interest of Christians in the west, their nexus with Indian church andMaoists - Another Issue.

Point no 4 ,and this response by Charitra
" But many cases go unreported in remote areasof Bihar, an eastern state where the Ho and Santhal tribes live. These clanslived for centuries in deep forests, surviving on its produce and taking littlefrom the outside world. They hunt with bows, worship nature and swear loyaltyto the village headman."

Hmmm they certainly dont sound like hindus, do they? If they dont want tochange their ways wih the changing times what options do we responsiblecitizens have? Send the social workers and remove kids from those ghettos whichis what happens in civilized world ? I think so. Waco, Texas and BranchDavidian massacre comes to mind. Another important thing. The seven sisterstates in northeast have been successfully evangelized in case some of you arenot aware of it. The majority are not hindus, they are christians, mostlybaptists and Protestants. More crosses are seen there than Oms. The MPs arechristians by faith, Miss Sangma is one such big name from those states.. Allhindu festivals are banned in Manipur, Mizoram,Tripura etc. The 'separatistshold a Kalashnikov in one hand a Bible in the other'. Before someone getstempted to get noisy, please understand I rerad this in Guardian sometime lastyear and the reporter was an Englishman who spent a few days visiting theareas.. Hindus as always didnt intervene and now live in fear there. Only Armycan live without any fear in those remote parts of the nation.Namaste”

Take them together and let's check our inferences again

Flowing Along
17 January 2012, 07:07 AM
Witch hunt is a typical malady of a medieval Christian society , one that

1. Effectively silenced dissidents

2. Demonized them and thus justified these holy hunts/silencing

3. Pit people against each other and silenced any potential dissidents.

Brilliant. If only they’d used this smart to help people instead of this…

Considering all this ,we should take any news item with a lot of salt. Why this? Why now? Why Santals who are said to resist conversions?

On the other hand , if it is proved to be a new Hindu Malady, can our Govt. provide basic protection to Hindu Swamijis who work there to help tribals ?Arm chair talk is one thing, they are actually working there , do we at least remember them?

Swami Lakshmananda ismore relevant to this thread rather than Rampuri babas and Yogas .

I know that neither I nor anyone can convince those who think Hindus should be eternally grateful toall that the powers in the West dishes out to them [ note: NO generalization here.I am not saying West ]–be it colonial suppression.History twists, turmeric patents , all those Yoga patents, etc.

No medicine for Jalpa or Vitanda …

This is for those who want to discuss things without biases.-for eg. when you come across news like “human sacrifice” in Kali temple in Tanjore , stop, ask for facts and take it with a pinch of salt.

I saw that threads here about “ sacrifices “ in Tanjore and would have laughed but for the malice in that "news" .

I know Tanjore, -still as an open minded Hindu [ our strength as well as weakness] we may not cry “ I don’t believe that!” when we see solid proof-but if a bloke cutshis tongue or someone else’s in the name of sacrifice , that is an exception rather than a rule , Hindus say such criminals should be suitably dealt with legally. So where’s the problem?

I request Western Hindus as well as Indian Hindus to consider things well before condemning anything./assuming things to be true.Similar "news" have been going around since the time of Swami Vivekananda .Read his humor filled responses to funny .ignorant questions. But where there may be truth, the Hindu has no qualms in admitting it as he sincerely wants to clean his frontyard.He may not be 100 % perfect [ if he were, he'd be elsewhere and not in this World!] but he is better than most in that department.

I myself ‘ve struggled with a lot of distortions/wrong ideas about our own religion/society as reported by those whose intentions weren’t good. We Indians have had an education that Macaulay is laughing about in his grave but now I ‘ve decided we need to carefully consider things first before jumping to those conclusions that the newspaper expects us to.

I am not suggesting maybe a great conspiracy , it may be just simply “ racy” from a news point of view- –but do Hindus deserve the bashing?

After all we’d all agree that dubbing an America despite the many great strides she has made in many fields as “ steeped in the dark middle ages “[ based on her Warren Jeffs or other such similar cult leaders] would be plain stupid and arrogant.

sm78
17 January 2012, 08:37 AM
[COLOR=black]Witch hunt is a typical malady of a medieval Christian society , one that

...call this stunned in time and space or something else, this is way beyond retarded and even psychological help.

...while in real terms hindus continue to loose ground in India. An aggressive campaign to further double the job quota for muslims in UP is in full swing, while KT lays stone for a brand new Haj complex with taxpayers money, convicted terrorists & mass murders are kept alive at tax payers money, while hindu monks are jailed and tortured without proof and detained indefinitely.

...but like broken record of baba ramdev lectures, so called Hindus can only bash people who do not exist anymore or do not have any role in their lives, and completely refuse to acknowledge the stinking filth within (which is demonstrated quite by these posts).

MahaHrada
17 January 2012, 10:21 AM
Witch hunt is a typical malady of a medieval Christian society , one that [/FONT][/COLOR]

This is wrong the Roman and Greek society already had witch trials and the medieval witch hunt was based on excerpts of pagan roman law besides christian concepts, there are witch hunts and trials all over Africa today and also Saudi arabian courts have recently ordered several executions of witches.

I know about instances in Jharkand, where my gurus guru was born, of people that even nowadays practice witch trials and witch hunts regularly, they drive in cars to attend witch trials and not on buffalo cart, and own mobile phones not drums, and are by no means primitive forest dwellers, one of the family of the person accused as a witch has to come and attend the trial, the local seer or witch expert ask an oracle before the deity and decides if the acussed is a witch or not, if it is decided one member of the family of the witch has to kill her, otherwise the whole family will be rooted out and the house demolished. If a family member himself kill the alleged witch the others are only driven from the village and the house is demolished. So what usually happens is that preferably the youngest son will behead the alleged witch, who could be his mother or grandmother or sister and will carry the chopped of head to the police and confess the crime, in most of these cases nobody will(or wants) to find out why the murder happened. That also means that statistic of witch hunts if they even exists give considerably lower figures and the actual witch hunt count is infinitlely higher than the statistics suggest.

It has been argued in this thread that this is a new phenomena, by no means can this practice be called new, there are records of witch hunts and human sacrifices dating back approximately 1500 years ago, but the origin of religious killings, bloody sacrifice and witch hunt might well be much older. Also practises to sacrifice children for finding hidden treasures and mystical powers etc. besides the ones for fertility are even nowadays common in some regions.

To even think that this is secular media, christian, or western propaganda is ridicilous, it is of course a taboo to talk about it, and i understand if some western converts or NRI s are looking at indias society and religion through rose colored glasses and have no idea of what is going on, but desis should be aware of such things, even if unwilling to talk about it.

But those with a love for their country and hindu rashtra should admit to that, and at least feel sad about the suffering and plight of the downtrodden, murdered, tortured, sick and disowned people.

All this will not get better by deflecting blame to strawman.

charitra
17 January 2012, 10:36 AM
@ Mahahrada,
Namaste. You took a swipe at Hindu American Foundation (HAF) in one of the above posts. Do you mind enligthning me the underlying reasons, specifying some of their activism that was objectionable to you.

MahaHrada
17 January 2012, 10:57 AM
@ Mahahrada,
Namaste. You took a swipe at Hindu American Foundation (HAF) in one of the above posts. Do you mind enligthning me the underlying reasons, specifying some of their activism that was objectionable to you.

Yes the smear campaign that attacks some schools of Yoga which have a larger following in the west and are apparently seen as an unwanted competition to Indian based businesses and godman. To attack Yoga as somewhat opposed to true hinduism is self destructive for the Hindu cause.

Flowing Along
17 January 2012, 11:04 AM
Namaste SM

...call this stunned in time and space or something else, this is way beyond retarded and even psychological help.


Thanks for letting me know in no uncertain terms that you are not interested in any reasonable communication.

If you think another person's ideas are wrong, you could do a point by point rebuttal .
Personal insults/rude name calling is no way people conduct any reasonable exchange.

Naturally you have nothing else to say regarding all the other issues I have raised .

I would not have posted looking at the ugly turn this conversation took but I felt I should put my side of points for anyone who'd be reading in future.

MH too,in his earlier post was talking about phychological help and Hitler .

Well, I didn't expect this kind of exchange here. In some other sites discussing Dharma issues, some people do this to divert attention from real issues.

Thanks again .

Namaste MH
I see you say things in a more measured way here compared to the previous post. Appreciate that.
I said , if witch hunting is indeed an issue in India that needs a positive intervention by Hindu Swamis ,they are there to help provided they are allowed to work in peace.Am not surprised you have nothing to say about other points. Please go through my earlier post on this .
Pranam

MahaHrada
17 January 2012, 11:18 AM
Am not surprised you have nothing to say about other points. Please go through my earlier post on this .
Pranam

Certainly if there are any points that need answer? I do not belive that the western media is critical of Hindus or India on the contrary, western journalists are least critcial of Buddhism and Hinduism compared to the other world religions, and considering how dire evil it is to abduct a child and cut out its liver and throw the body parts around to satisfy a deity, the article is appeasement and flattery, the reason for this is probably that the leftist, journalists are very critical of abrahamic religions, and maybe therefore turn a blind eye to faults of the eastern religions, Hinduism and Buddhism.
Thats why much of your argument regarding the topic is misdirected and incompatible with my worldview, so that i cannot answer it. If there is no rose colored elephant around, i can´t wash its back, all I could do would be to pretend it. I see a flattery you suspect an insult what can i do? This article is way too forgiving, considering how dire the situation is. Same thing with HAF it is unfair to attack people that have dedicated their life to teaching yoga just because some of them happen to be non Indians. Thats why these 2 subjects have an intimate connection for me, they both turn reality upside down and are self destructive for the very cause they want to achieve.

Sahasranama
17 January 2012, 12:07 PM
Mahahrada, I feel you are raising important points about superstitious and immoral acts in India that many of us are unaware of. Hindus should not shun to look at the problems of our own sacred country. In the original post, there were two things one could feel embarrased about. One is the immoral/ superstitious acts that go on in India and the second was the mention that India is supersitious. If we put both on a scale, I absolutely agree that the second point does not even measure up. But you also have to see that characterising India as superstitious is demeaning, because this generalises the whole of India and its religion. It is one thing to call human sacrifice and witch hunting superstitious, but another to put that stamp on India as a whole. Of course, after reading such an article and getting worked up over this can be considered as nitpicking, but one has to understand that the stamp superstious is often given to India even by people who are not aware of problems like human sacrifice or witch hunting and even then, there is no need to make this generalisation about India. Calling this out is also a valid point regarding biases in journalism. It also remains important to look at what is happening with Hindu traditions globally. What is going on in India is only part of the equation. It is not that we as Hindus can either look myopically at what is going on in India or myopically look at the other direction. Sure, we can make up our mind about what we think is more important, but problems on either side of the world deserve our attention in my opinion.

MahaHrada
17 January 2012, 04:36 PM
Mahahrada, I feel you are raising important points about superstitious and immoral acts in India that many of us are unaware of. Hindus should not shun to look at the problems of our own sacred country. In the original post, there were two things one could feel embarrased about. One is the immoral/ superstitious acts that go on in India and the second was the mention that India is supersitious. If we put both on a scale, I absolutely agree that the second point does not even measure up. But you also have to see that characterising India as superstitious is demeaning, because this generalises the whole of India and its religion. It is one thing to call human sacrifice and witch hunting superstitious, but another to put that stamp on India as a whole. Of course, after reading such an article and getting worked up over this can be considered as nitpicking, but one has to understand that the stamp superstious is often given to India even by people who are not aware of problems like human sacrifice or witch hunting and even then, there is no need to make this generalisation about India. Calling this out is also a valid point regarding biases in journalism. It also remains important to look at what is happening with Hindu traditions globally. What is going on in India is only part of the equation. It is not that we as Hindus can either look myopically at what is going on in India or myopically look at the other direction. Sure, we can make up our mind about what we think is more important, but problems on either side of the world deserve our attention in my opinion.

Yes i see the point but sorry what do you expect!? Western journalists are all leftist intellectuals, belive in any god or spirit or even subtle life energy is a superstition for a modern journalist. You can´t make a silk purse out of a pigs ear.

Imagine a sacrifice as this would have happened in connection to christianity the jourmnalists would sink their marxist claws deep into their favored victim the church, and would rant on for days, in that case, I must say it again: Mainstream western journalism today is biased against all religions but relatively pro eastern religions Buddhism, Taoism and Hinduism and strongly biased against christianity less against Islam but still very much more biased against any of the abrahmic religions in general than against any of the 3 eastern. Christianity and Theism is the traditional enemy of all Rationalists and Leftists, naturally they are less virulently against Buddhists, Taoists and Hindus in that Order and often supportive or appeasing and more ready to excuse faults of the eastern religions.
And secondly can one really say that it is wrong to say, even when generalising, that India is a land of superstitions?
If a child is born with 4 arms or two heads thousands of people drive hundreds of miles and come to worship it. The parents become rich. Can you think of one country on this planet were this would happen, except India. This is as superstitous as it can get and this and so much more happens all the time. If you sneeze when going out you have to drink a glas of water to avoid the curse if you see a prostitute than you are lucky for the whole day during "made snan" low caste people roll around in the dirty leftover food of brahmins for good luck. etc. etc.
Saying that india is a country of rationalists would certainly plainly be wrong.
Saying that India is land of superstitions is only realistic if the facts hurt it is not the fault of the facts, how otherwise could people like sexy nitty and sai baba get worshipped as gods even by influential politicians? Though we may not like to hear it, to call indians superstitous is not that far from the mark especially in connection with such recurring savage acts, it almost sounds like an excuse and flattery rather than an attack. I can think of other much harsher words, I would use, when looking for the causes of these sacrifices, than the relatively harmless generalisation "superstition" .
I personally have not enough tears even if i would weep for weeks and years without ever sleeping inbetween, that would be able to wash away these crimes and this paap, and i feel that everybody who loves Mother India must feel like this and I cannot understand the emotion of bashing the journalist, and only because he was telling us the truth in away that felt a little unpleasant. In the face of the pain of the mother who lost her child in this gruesome way it appears gross to me to feel offended because of a sentence that may make me feel unpleasant if i try hard enough to bent the facts.

charitra
17 January 2012, 07:49 PM
Yes the smear campaign that attacks some schools of Yoga which have a larger following in the west and are apparently seen as an unwanted competition to Indian based businesses and godman. To attack Yoga as somewhat opposed to true hinduism is self destructive for the Hindu cause.

With a patently absurd accusation like above one would lose one’s credibility pretty fast IMO. The ‘yoga debate’ or ‘war of yogis’, as popularly dubbed by media, was not about competition between white and nonwhite yoga teachers. Because simply there is none. The Caucasians outnumber others in huge numbers here in America. Also the small number of Indian American teachers are pretty busy and don’t have anything to complain of in terms of income.

The HAF was lamenting that the Yoga Journal (YJ) has been all along surgically dissecting out the words ‘Hindu’ and ‘SD’ from yoga, thus delinking the original innovators from yoga ,from all of its pages and replaced them instead with an ‘indian’ connotation (only), whilst at the sametime printing ‘buddhist’ links in most of its articles. Go ahead and google Yoga journal and see how even the current edition unfairly excluded Hinduism from its lead article. The writers do mention Patanjali, Ayengar, Pattabhi Jois etc (hindu)teachers though. YJ did not go far enough.

Another reason for the angst is that some teachers have attempted patenting some asanas. And if their patents become successful then even hindus in hindu lands will be subjected to copy right violation charges. Shocked? That’s clearly reverse plagiarism and has no merit for further discussion. Finally, at least in some hands the Hatha yoga that is largely taught here in USA metamorphosed so much that nowadays more and more yoga started to look like a strenuous work out rather than a spiritual Sadhana (practice). As you have wrongfully but overconfidently alluded in your post there was ‘no ownership’ claim laid by HAF nor there were any underlying competition concerns. It is all about discrimination: excluding Hinduism from yoga, delinking yoga from its origins.

Based on this, sadly, Iam inclined to opine that most of what you wrote is pure fiction, devoidof any facts.

MahaHrada
17 January 2012, 10:18 PM
You are free to have your own opinion about this worldwide smear campaign against yoga even great teacher like Iyengar have been attacked by hindu activists in the wake of this madness, by not only the HAF but also people like Rampuri Babaand Rajiv Malhotra and others are engaed in this mess, while the same people that attack and alienate yoga practioners and teachers organise support campaigns for cheats like sex exploiter Guru Nitty. It is evident that fake Godman have a great interest in smearing western yoga to attract more spiritual tourists from the west to their ashrams, by undermining the credibility of western yoga teachers.

MahaHrada
18 January 2012, 05:47 AM
[FONT=Calibri][SIZE=3]Based on this, sadly, Iam inclined to opine that most of what you wrote is pure fiction, devoidof any facts.

Concerning the topic of bloody sacrifice and witch hunt in India nobody needs my credibility everyone can just do a Google search.

1,)Witch hunt india

2.) human sacrifice India

and you will find tons of historic data statistics interviews, cases that became news and other references.

Surya Deva
18 January 2012, 08:17 AM
Concerning the topic of bloody sacrifice and witch hunt in India nobody needs my credibility everyone can just do a Google search.

1,)Witch hunt india

2.) human sacrifice India

and you will find tons of historic data statistics interviews, cases that became news and other references.

Namaste,

I was directed here by a friend of mine. I do not post here very often, I spend more time at the Yoga forums. Although I should probably post here more, as I do not really feel intellectually satisfied there. So on that not lets begin:

Did witch hunts happen in India and do they still happen in India today? Yes
Did human sacrifices happen in India and do they still happen in India today? Yes

Now let us ask:

Did witch hunts happen outside of India and do they still happen today? Yes
Did human sacrifices happen outside of India and do they still happen today? Yes

Now let us ask:

How frequent are witch hunts and human sacrifices in India in a population of 1 billion people?
How are frequent are witch hunts and human sacrifices in a world population of 7 billion people?

The answer that we all probably know is not very frequent at all. The OP mentioned 200 reported witch hunt cases in 10 years. Does anybody want to do the math on how insignificant of a statistic that is in a population of over 1 billion people over 10 years? Compare and contrast this to regular statistics of crime in India and around the world, and one will be able put into perspective on how rare witch-hunting and human sacrifices etc are in India and the world.

The OP commits an over-generalization fallacy by generalizing witch-hunting and human sacrifices to Hinduism. He shows that because in the history of India both present and past witch hunting has taken place, that it is obviously a Hindu problem. This is a common fallacy played by detractors of Hinduism: generalizing all social problems in India as being problems of Hinduism(sati, child marriage, caste system) However, that is like saying the social problems of America, the high rates of crime, dysfunctional families and its thriving porn industries is a problem of Christianity. Obviously one can see the fallacy here.

To see how representative witch-hunting and human sacrifices are of Hinduism and Hindus look at the popular scriptures of Hinduism and take a poll of popular Hindu opinion on these acts. If you polled me I would consider witch hunts and human sacrifices as inhumane and barbaric as you do. I am confident that you will get 95% + disapproval rating from Hindus on these acts.

MahaHrada
18 January 2012, 07:30 PM
Namaste,

I was directed here by a friend of mine. I do not post here very often, I spend more time at the Yoga forums. Although I should probably post here more, as I do not really feel intellectually satisfied there. So on that not lets begin:

Did witch hunts happen in India and do they still happen in India today? Yes
Did human sacrifices happen in India and do they still happen in India today? Yes

Now let us ask:

Did witch hunts happen outside of India and do they still happen today? Yes
Did human sacrifices happen outside of India and do they still happen today? Yes

Now let us ask:

How frequent are witch hunts and human sacrifices in India in a population of 1 billion people?
How are frequent are witch hunts and human sacrifices in a world population of 7 billion people?

The answer that we all probably know is not very frequent at all. The OP mentioned 200 reported witch hunt cases in 10 years. Does anybody want to do the math on how insignificant of a statistic that is in a population of over 1 billion people over 10 years? Compare and contrast this to regular statistics of crime in India and around the world, and one will be able put into perspective on how rare witch-hunting and human sacrifices etc are in India and the world.

The OP commits an over-generalization fallacy by generalizing witch-hunting and human sacrifices to Hinduism. He shows that because in the history of India both present and past witch hunting has taken place, that it is obviously a Hindu problem. This is a common fallacy played by detractors of Hinduism: generalizing all social problems in India as being problems of Hinduism(sati, child marriage, caste system) However, that is like saying the social problems of America, the high rates of crime, dysfunctional families and its thriving porn industries is a problem of Christianity. Obviously one can see the fallacy here.

To see how representative witch-hunting and human sacrifices are of Hinduism and Hindus look at the popular scriptures of Hinduism and take a poll of popular Hindu opinion on these acts. If you polled me I would consider witch hunts and human sacrifices as inhumane and barbaric as you do. I am confident that you will get 95% + disapproval rating from Hindus on these acts.


This is a common fallacy played by detractors of Hinduism:
No one that posted here is a detractor of Hinduism, also the journalists that report these case are no detractors or enemies of Hinduism, it is rather the people that hunt witches and abduct and sacrifice children that are the real detractors of Hinduism.

Why attack the messenger that points to the crime and spare the criminal?

I must direct you to this thread http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showthread.php?t=8822 my posts are only replies to it that got moved with an inappropriate header that the moderator choose not me. If you got the wrong impression that i wanted to "bash" Hindus because of the thread title i can asshure you this is not the case but i admit i am fed up with the attitude to blame others and always pick the easiest victims, the westerners and western culture, even longstanding supporters of Hinduism are smeared by Hindu activists, while the acts of the common enemies of both the western and Hindu culture, the islamists, that pose a real danger, are almost completly ignored.

If someone is offended and starts to bash a journalist for calling india a superstitous country, in an article about human sacrifice, and in that context the op mentions witch burnings that have happened 300 years in the past in a far away place, Germany ,while the reported incidents happen today in India, that is only to deflect attention from todays malpractices all the while playing the victim card. This is a cold hearted almost inhuman behaviour towards those that suffer and have suffered from these crimes and could not be tolerated by me without commenting on it. Thats is my reason for posting in this thread. I did not begin to connect it with Hinduism the Op of the original thread did by denying that there is a difference between Hindus and tribals while I do differentiate.
But my posts are not primarily about the religious background and reason for these practices. These are practises that exist in todays Indian society, and certainly also Hindus are involved.

The best way to prevent the depiction of India as superstitious is to make shure these malpractises do not continue instead of being offendend when facts are reported. Concerning the statistics you mention, these are known cases in only one province, but the number are way higher and the malpractises happen in more than only one province, and it is not all about about the murdered witches it is also about those tortured stoned bludgeoned driven naked through the village etc. that do not appear in any statistic.

The majority of these cases go unreported since the village panchayats are actively involved in the witch hunts and the govt. does not at all or keep only incorrect statistics.

The malpractices in India are definetly more relevant for this forum for Hindus and India, than witch burnings that happened in Germany 300 years ago, or todays societal problems in America. And what has the USA Porn industry to do with religiously inspired murder and torture? What is the common denominator here?
Even if statisticial lesser evil than other causes of death, does that in any way lessen the suffering of these victims? These people suffer as terribly as all others tortured, and there is no end to these practices. So i am at a loss to understand why you pick on numbers and mention societal evils in other societies that are far away, if not for the reason of deflecting attention from what happens here. Let these other societies take care of their own evils and Bharata of the plight of her people.

In the last 15 years, more than 2500 Indian women have been killed in the name of witchcraft. According to FLAC, 670 of these women were murdered between 2004 and 2005, and that only according to offical statistics.

http://www.orato.com/self-help/rural-india-targets-women-witch-hunts

Conviction rate according to FLAC is lower than 2%

It is rather an accepted custom than a crime most of the case are not reported. What happens if they are reported is that the convicts are free after maximal only 5 years in jail.

Some states like Bihar, Jharkhand and Chhattisgarh do have specific laws against witch hunts. Chhattisgarh’s Tonahi Pratadna Nivaran Act, 2005, lays down a three-year prison term for people who accuse a woman of being a tonahi or dayan and five years’ imprisonment for anyone who causes physical harm to a woman by calling her a “witch”. The Prevention of Witch (Daain) Practices Act, 1999, in Bihar and the Witchcraft Prevention Act, 2001, in Jharkhand also lay down similar punishments for people indulging in witch hunts.

http://www.sacw.net/article2156.html




The OP commits an over-generalization fallacy by generalizing witch-hunting and human sacrifices to Hinduism. He shows that because in the history of India both present and past witch hunting has taken place, that it is obviously a Hindu problem.[/I][/B]

This is untrue
Instead i have written:
Quote:

...the Roman and Greek society already had witch trials and the medieval witch hunt was based on excerpts of pagan roman law besides christian concepts, there are witch hunts and trials all over Africa today and also Saudi arabian courts have recently ordered several executions of witches.
http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showpost.php?p=77889&postcount=27

It is highly irritating if Hindus are offended by the terminology of the reports of malpractises, rather than by the practice itself, begin belittling the problem by citing other unrelated crime statistics and even start retaliating by bashing a western govt for not apologising for a witchhunt that happened 300 years ago while appearing to be indifferent to the actual suffering of their own people today.

sm78
19 January 2012, 01:00 AM
and it is not all about about the murdered witches it is also about those tortured stoned bludgeoned driven naked through the village etc

Just 2 days back there was a report of a Dalit woman being paraded naked through the village and beaten up because her son eloped with a "higher caste" girl. These things happen far too often in this country to keep statistics about. While a crime like this in west gets days of press and strict action, it is not even reported here most of the time.

The idea is not hindu bashing, since some these crimes are also displayed by Christians and Muslims, and has more to do with Indian societal issues than religion directly.

Neither Mahahrada nor myself have never ever highlighted these events by ourselves, as protraying negativities of Indian society is not my business.

It is always those people who bring these topics up as whining complains for how world is unfair to Hindus. This is definitely a serious malady and a psychological problem which any rationally thinking person should spot.

You bring up all your own wrong doings, but as an excuse to put the blame on people who had no role in it. It is not normal.

MahaHrada
19 January 2012, 06:42 AM
It is always those people who bring these topics up as whining complains for how world is unfair to Hindus. This is definitely a serious malady and a psychological problem which any rationally thinking person should spot.


These people in their own imagination are not only victims of non existing anti Hindu sentiments, but think they are brave defenders of dharma in a shining armour, but only taking down imagined strawman, being afraid to approach real problems and real enemies of Dharma, this is a cowardly act.

"Dharmo Rakshati Rakshita" only apply to those with courage to approach the real enemies of dharma but those people that are informend by humanist values of modern western society as free speech, freedom of information and pluralism are no enemies of Hinduism. Those inspired by the sharia law or other backward social customs rules and religions, like those of the witch hunters pose a real threat to indian society.

In the shakta tradition we have a devi that is supposed to destroy these real "detractors" of Hinduism those that follow evil customs and degenerated religions, she is called DuracharaSamani "The devi who destroys evil customs" so it is within our duties to point to these practises and the attitudes of defense and deflection, as enemies of Dharma.


Just 2 days back there was a report of a Dalit woman being paraded naked through the village and beaten up because her son eloped with a "higher caste" girl. These things happen far too often in this country to keep statistics about. While a crime like this in west gets days of press and strict action, it is not even reported here most of the time.

Thats right as an Indian you have to really try hard to turn your back to these things, or blame others, it is common and not worth a shrug of the shoulder for most. It is more easy for me to understand why western converts view of Indian society and religion and those of some NRIs is through rose colored glasses, when corresponding with Indian residents it is much harder to be understanding or have empathy with this attitude.

But not only Indians also western converts who got their ideas about Hinduism from the Internet plus being immersed in new age thought, and vedantic Hinduism watered down further by some Godman or Amma, join the ranks of these self declared defenders of Sanathana Dharma.

Instead of being part of urban indian society, they are informed rather by a mixture of the values of Godman, the american "bible belt" and leftist bashing of western culture.

These people with no idea whasoever what is really going, also start blowing the conch and beating the Drum. This confuses the matter further.

satay
19 January 2012, 09:54 AM
namaste Maha, SM,
Which part of the following HDF site rule do you not comprehend? I am just wondering. If you must expose problems of India, why not create your own site and blog away there. It is easy enough to create a blog of your own on the internet.

Just curious.

No Flaming: Please do not post messages that are deliberately hostile and insulting to another member or guest. Please do not post inflammatory, rude, repetitive, or offensive messages designed intentionally to annoy or antagonize other members or disrupt the flow of discussion. This includes messages in profiles and signatures. Controversial topics are welcomed on HDF, however, do not post or create threads only for the sake of creating controversy or hostility. This site is for positive presentation of Sanatana Dharma. Please do not post insulting, hostile or negative comments about Hindus, Hinduism, India or Indians.

MahaHrada
19 January 2012, 10:18 AM
namaste Maha, SM,
Which part of the following HDF site rule do you not comprehend? I am just wondering. If you must expose problems of India, why not create your own site and blog away there. It is easy enough to create a blog of your own on the internet.

Just curious.

No Flaming: Please do not post messages that are deliberately hostile and insulting to another member or guest. Please do not post inflammatory, rude, repetitive, or offensive messages designed intentionally to annoy or antagonize other members or disrupt the flow of discussion. This includes messages in profiles and signatures. Controversial topics are welcomed on HDF, however, do not post or create threads only for the sake of creating controversy or hostility. This site is for positive presentation of Sanatana Dharma. Please do not post insulting, hostile or negative comments about Hindus, Hinduism, India or Indians.

Satay
What rule exactly did we breach and where? Should we expose only external enemies of Dharma and Hindu society never the internal Obstructors of Peace and Advancement ?Just curious myself.

satay
19 January 2012, 10:28 AM
namaste Maha,


Satay
What rule exactly did we breach and where?


I will it bold it for you..

No Flaming: Please do not post messages that are deliberately hostile and insulting to another member or guest. Please do not post inflammatory, rude, repetitive, or offensive messages designed intentionally to annoy or antagonize other members or disrupt the flow of discussion. This includes messages in profiles and signatures. Controversial topics are welcomed on HDF, however, do not post or create threads only for the sake of creating controversy or hostility. This site is for positive presentation of Sanatana Dharma. Please do not post insulting, hostile or negative comments about Hindus, Hinduism, India or Indians.



Should we expose only external enemies of Dharma and Hindu society never the internal Obstructors of Peace and Advancement ?Just curious myself.

I suggest you create your own blog or site for that purpose. I can show you how to create your own blog freely on the Internet.

MahaHrada
19 January 2012, 10:39 AM
namaste Maha,



I will it bold it for you..

/B][/SIZE][/FONT]


I suggest you create your own blog or site for that purpose. I can show you how to create your own blog freely on the Internet.

Sorry Satay,
I must have missed the part that "indian" and "India" is an Absolutism. I assumend the term Indians did not refer to all kind of criminals. I am deeply troubled by the subject because i am a shakta and part of these problems originate from an extremist or outdated interpretation of my own tradition, which is not in conformity with todays values. So i am naturally better informed and more involved in this problem than others that are new to this subject. I am sorry if i overstepped the Limits of your Forum.

I am on my way out.

satay
19 January 2012, 11:05 AM
namaste Maha,


Sorry Satay,
I must have missed the part that "indian" and "India" is an Absolutism.

Sorry, those are the rules of the site. They are not up for discussion.



I am on my way out.

Be Well. Your Rnanubandhana with HDF just ended. Cheers.

MahaHrada
19 January 2012, 11:38 AM
namaste Maha,


Sorry, those are the rules of the site. They are not up for discussion.


Be Well. Your Rnanubandhana with HDF just ended. Cheers.
Satay
Thanks for clarifying and for your well wishes, i will stick to these rules in the future, should i decide to post here.

Surya Deva
02 February 2012, 10:47 PM
This thread is purely based on a fallacy of over-generalizing. The argument goes that because in the history of India there have been practices like human sacrifices and witch hunting, that it is because of Hinduism. As if human sacrifices and witch hunts are general characteristics of Hinduism. Obviously not. In fact they are not even general characteristics of Indian society, because these practices are so rare(the OP describes a few hundred cases of witch hunts recently over 10 years in a population of 1 billion people) that they are statistically insignificant. There are far more statistically significant social evils that take place in every part of the world(murder, rape, theft etc) and it would be foolish to blame this on the majority religion. Should we blame Christianity for the high rates of crime, divorce and pornography in the USA?

The premise of the OP is so ridiculous that this thread really should not have been given any serious attention at all.

PS: Christians often argue that the social evils of inquisitions and witch burning that took place in the West were social problems, but had nothing to do with Christianity. This is completely false, the inquisitions and witch burning were directly ordained by the Church and the clergy. On the other hand, in India there has never been a church or a clergy, so any social evils that have been done in the name of Hinduism are simply not representative of Hinduism.

MahaHrada
04 February 2012, 02:14 PM
This thread is purely based on a fallacy of over-generalizing. The argument goes that because in the history of India there have been practices like human sacrifices and witch hunting, that it is because of Hinduism. As if human sacrifices and witch hunts are general characteristics of Hinduism. Obviously not. In fact they are not even general characteristics of Indian society, because these practices are so rare(the OP describes a few hundred cases of witch hunts recently over 10 years in a population of 1 billion people) that they are statistically insignificant. There are far more statistically significant social evils that take place in every part of the world(murder, rape, theft etc) and it would be foolish to blame this on the majority religion. Should we blame Christianity for the high rates of crime, divorce and pornography in the USA?

The premise of the OP is so ridiculous that this thread really should not have been given any serious attention at all.

PS: Christians often argue that the social evils of inquisitions and witch burning that took place in the West were social problems, but had nothing to do with Christianity. This is completely false, the inquisitions and witch burning were directly ordained by the Church and the clergy. On the other hand, in India there has never been a church or a clergy, so any social evils that have been done in the name of Hinduism are simply not representative of Hinduism.

Why are you posting the same things that have already been clarified for a second time?

I refer you to my answer here:
http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showpost.php?p=77932&postcount=38

Surya Deva
05 February 2012, 09:02 AM
Apologies, I was not aware my older post had actually gone through, because I posted it on the day the Wiki strike was on, and got no confirmation that the post had been accepted. I will reply to your post later.

Surya Deva
05 February 2012, 09:10 AM
Alright, apologies if this reply is brief, but I felt it only required a brief response, as you really do not have a valid argument worth discussion:


In the last 15 years, more than 2500 Indian women have been killed in the name of witchcraft. According to FLAC, 670 of these women were murdered between 2004 and 2005, and that only according to offical statistics.

Yes, exactly it is statistically insignificant. In a population of 1 billion people, 2500 women being murdered in witch hunts over a 15 year time period(that is approx 166 a year) is statistically insignificant. It is obviously neither a significant problem in Hinduism or a significant problem in Indian society. It is a rare crime and I really hope the perpetrators of these crime are duly punished by the law.

You are trying to make this sound like a major Hindu problem. This is why I said you are committing a fallacy of over-generalizing. I am not going to waste my time arguing with fallacious arguments.

MahaHrada
05 February 2012, 09:31 AM
Alright, apologies if this reply is brief, but I felt it only required a brief response, as you really do not have a valid argument worth discussion:



Yes, exactly it is statistically insignificant. In a population of 1 billion people, 2500 women being murdered in witch hunts over a 15 year time period(that is approx 166 a year) is statistically insignificant. It is obviously neither a significant problem in Hinduism or a significant problem in Indian society. It is a rare crime and I really hope the perpetrators of these crime are duly punished by the law.

You are trying to make this sound like a major Hindu problem. This is why I said you are committing a fallacy of over-generalizing. I am not going to waste my time arguing with fallacious arguments.

Again my postings are not primarily about any Religion but about the fatal human trait of deflecting attention by blaming others to excuse one´s own shortcomings. It is therefore not even directed at Indians let alone Hindus. The worst offenders are Muslims they constantly play the victim card when criticised. I just don´t want Hindus to turn into Mullahs.

Believer
05 February 2012, 02:26 PM
Namaste,

Again my postings are not primarily about any Religion but about the fatal human trait of deflecting attention by blaming others to excuse one´s own shortcomings. It is therefore not even directed at Indians let alone Hindus. The worst offenders are Muslims they constantly play the victim card when criticised. I just don´t want Hindus to turn into Mullahs.
And, on that note we can close the discussion and move forward.

Pranam.

dhyandev
22 June 2012, 02:00 PM
who'll bring the naga sadhus?:D
natgeo photographers come to india to have a shot