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Surya Deva
02 February 2012, 11:33 PM
Namaste,

I often tell people I was not born Hindu, but I was born Sikh. I then have to qualify my statement by saying, "But then again, Sikhism really is just another form of Hinduism anyway" However, I find that many Sikhs do not accept this. I once had a very brief debate with the president of the Sikh society at my university. Ironically, both the Sikh societies and Hindu societies were having an event and I was intending to go the Hindu society. I accidentally ended up meeting the Sikh society people, and mistook them to be the Hindu society! After a while, I realized I had actually come to the wrong society, when I said to a Sikh member assuming he was a member of the Hindu society, "There really is not that much difference between Sikhism and Hinduism is there" He lashed back, "No, there is a lot of difference, were a completely different religion"

What differences? The only differences I can observe is that the rituals, the symbols and the styles in Sikhism are different, but the substance is exactly the same: Same core beliefs(Dharma, Karma, Reincarnation, Moksha, Atman, Brahman) Same core practices(Kirtan, Yoga, Puja(book instead of idol) Seva) Same structure, morality and order(Guru parmpara, yama and niyamas)

Some Sikhs counter all of this by saying Sikhism is different because the founder Guru Nanak was the first in India to reject idol worship in favor of naam japa and kirtan, to create a monotheistic super-personal god, to reject the caste system, to promote equality of men and women etc. However, my research has shown me Sikhism was just another branch of the Bhakti movement, and many notable philosophers and saints like Naam Dev etc had already done the same.

Thus, if we actually really look at the facts, Sikhism is basically just another branch of the Bhakti movement within Hinduism. Its status as a separate and independent religion is highly dubious.

Sahasranama
02 February 2012, 11:59 PM
Indeed, you can read Koenraad Elst on this subject.

There are also many posts on this forum made by Harjas Kaur, if you have the time, you can browse through them.

wundermonk
03 February 2012, 05:21 AM
In general, in India, Hindus are a convenient lot on whom everyone can take a dump to prove they are "elite" and "modern".

Nina Paley? Trash Hindus. Wendy Doniger? Trash the Gita. Barkha Dutt wants to get promoted in her organization? Trash Hindus. Rahul Gandhi wants to win UP elections? Take a dump on Hindus. Mira Nair wants to be considered a "cool" modern progressive director? Take a dump on Hindus.

Hinduism is the benchmark against which everything else gets set.

I personally do not know enough about the philosophical aspects of Sikhism and so cannot comment on that part.

dogra
15 February 2012, 02:19 PM
Look, end of the day it is for Sikh faith people to decide itself where it sits, we as Hindu faith, who cares, free choice.
We need to defend our faith against anti hindu elements who know nothing about our faith and ramble on about caste, when it is not even in our faith, the Varnas are by choice and there is clear equality:
http://agniveer.com/888/caste-system/

kv_rangan
18 February 2012, 12:43 PM
Yes of course. Hari Bhakti is insisted upon Sikhism. But let the fools be beguiled. Here are many Shabads from Guru Granth Sahib to prove my point.

पंचे सबद अनाहद बाजे संगे सारिंगपानी ॥
The Unstruck Melody of the Panch Shabad, the Five Primal Sounds, vibrates and resounds. I dwell with Lord Sarangapani (aka Vishnu).

अंतरजामी रामु रवांई मै डरु कैसे चहीऐ ॥१॥
I chant the Name of Lord Ram, the Inner-knower, the Searcher of hearts - why should I be afraid?

बेधीअले गोपाल गोसाई ॥
My mind is pierced through by the love of Gopala.

सरब निरंतरि रामु रहिआ रवि ऐसा रूपु बखानिआ ॥१॥
Lord Ram is pervading and permeating amongst all; this is how His Form can be described

गोबिदु गाजै सबदु बाजै ॥
The Lord of the Universe (Gobinda) appears when the Word of His Shabad is chanted.

आनद रूपी मेरो रामईआ ॥१॥
My Ram is the Embodiment of Bliss.



रामु सिमरि रामु सिमरि इहै तेरै काजि है ॥
Meditate in remembrance on Ram - meditate on Ram; this alone shall be of use to you.

रामु भजु रामु भजु जनमु सिरातु है ॥
Meditate on Ram - vibrate on Ram; your life is slipping away.

सगल भरम डारि देहि गोबिंद को नामु लेहि ॥
So give up all your doubts, and utter the Naam, the Name Gobinda.

इह जग महि राम नामु सो तउ नही सुनिओ कानि ॥
In this world, you have not listened to Ram's Name.

सिमरत नह किउ मुरारि माइआ जा की चेरी ॥२॥३॥
Why not meditate on the Murari? Even Maya is His slave. ||2||3||

निसि दिनु सुनि कै पुरान समझत नह रे अजान ॥
Night and day, you listen to the Puraanas, but you do not understand them, you ignorant fool!

किउ न हरि को नामु लेहि मूरख निलाज रे ॥१॥
Why don't you chant the Name of Hari, you shameless fool? ||1||

राम भगति हीए आनि छाडि दे तै मन को मानु ॥
Let devotional worship of Ram enter into your heart, and abandon the intellectualism of your mind.

पड़्हि पुस्तक संधिआ बादं ॥
You study the scriptures, say your prayers and argue;

सिल पूजसि बगुल समाधं ॥
you worship stones and sit like a crane, pretending to meditate.

मुखि झूठु बिभूखन सारं ॥
You speak lies and well-ornamented falsehood,

त्रैपाल तिहाल बिचारं ॥
and recite your daily prayers three times a day.

गलि माला तिलक लिलाटं ॥
The mala is around your neck, and the sacred tilak mark is on your forehead.

दुइ धोती बसत्र कपाटं ॥
You wear two loin cloths, and keep your head covered.

जो जानसि ब्रहमं करमं ॥ सभ फोकट निसचै करमं ॥
If you know God and the nature of karma, you know that all these rituals and beliefs are useless.

कहु नानक निसचौ *िध्यावै ॥
Says Nanak, meditate on the Lord with faith.

सागरं संसारस्य गुर परसादी तरहि के ॥
Only a few, by Guru's Grace, cross over the world-ocean.

करण कारण समरथु है कहु नानक बीचारि ॥
The Creator, the Cause of causes, is All-powerful. Thus speaks Nanak, after deep deliberation.

कारणु करते वसि है जिनि कल रखी धारि ॥२॥
The Creation is under the control of the Creator. By His Power, He sustains and supports it. ||2||

जोग सबदं गिआन सबदं बेद सबदं त ब्राहमणह ॥
The Shabad is Yoga, the Shabad is spiritual wisdom; the Shabad is the Vedas for the Brahmin.

ख्यत्री सबदं सूर सबदं सूद्र सबदं परा क्रितह ॥
The Shabad is heroic bravery for the Khshaatriya; the Shabad is service to others for the Soodra.

एक क्रिस्नं त सरब देवा देव देवा त आतमह ॥
The One Lord [Krishna(क्रिस्नं)] is the Divinity of all divinities and he is the Divinity of the soul;

कतंच माता कतंच पिता कतंच बनिता बिनोद सुतह ॥
Who is the mother, and who is the father? Who is the son, and what is the pleasure of marriage?

कतंच भ्रात मीत हित बंधव कतंच मोह कुट्मब्यते ॥
Who is the brother, friend, companion and relative? Who is emotionally attached to the family?

कतंच चपल मोहनी रूपं पेखंते तिआगं करोति ॥
Who is restlessly attached to beauty? It leaves, as soon as we see it.

रहंत संग भगवान सिमरण नानक लबध्यं अचुत तनह ॥१॥
Only the meditative remembrance of God remains with us. O Nanak, it brings the blessings of the Saints, the sons of the Imperishable Lord Achyuth (अचुत).

साधसंग स्नेह सत्यिं सुखयं बसंति नानकह ॥२॥
Only loving attachment to the Saadh Sangat, the Company of the Holy, is True. Nanak dwells there in peace.

गोबिंद गोबिंद गोबिंद गोपाल क्रिपा ॥३॥
O Gobind (Lord of the Universe), O Gobind, O Gobind, O Gopal (Master of the Universe), please be kind to me. ||3||






जिसु भेटत लागै प्रभ रंगु ॥१॥
Jis bẖetaṯ lāgai parabẖ rang. ||1||
Meeting with them, love for God is embraced. ||1||



गुर प्रसादि ओइ आनंद पावै ॥
Gur parsāḏ o▫e ānanḏ pāvai.
By Guru's Grace, bliss is obtained.



जिसु सिमरत मनि होइ प्रगासा ता की गति मिति कहनु न जावै ॥१॥ रहाउ ॥
Jis simraṯ man ho▫e pargāsā ṯā kī gaṯ miṯ kahan na jāvai. ||1|| rahā▫o.
Meditating upon Him in remembrance, the mind is illumined; his state and condition cannot be described. ||1||Pause||



वरत नेम मजन तिसु पूजा ॥
varaṯ nem majan ṯis pūjā.
Fasts, religious vows, cleansing baths, and worship to Him;



बेद पुरान तिनि सिम्रिति सुनीजा ॥
Beḏ purān ṯin simriṯ sunījā.
listening to the Vedas, Puraanas, and Shaastras.



महा पुनीत जा का निरमल थानु ॥
Mahā punīṯ jā kā nirmal thān.
Extremely pure is he, and immaculate is his place,



साधसंगति जा कै हरि हरि नामु ॥२॥
Sāḏẖsangaṯ jā kai har har nām. ||2||
who meditates upon Hari Naama, Hari, in the Saadh Sangat. ||2||



प्रगटिओ सो जनु सगले भवन ॥
Pargati▫o so jan sagle bẖavan.
That humble being becomes renowned all over the world.



पतित पुनीत ता की पग रेन ॥
Paṯiṯ punīṯ ṯā kī pag ren.
Even sinners are purified, by the dust of his feet.




जा कउ भेटिओ हरि हरि राइ ॥
Jā ka▫o bẖeti▫o har har rā▫e.
One who has met Lord Hari, the Lord Hari our King,



ता की गति मिति कथनु न जाइ ॥३॥
Ŧā kī gaṯ miṯ kathan na jā▫e. ||3||
his condition and state cannot be described. ||3||



आठ पहर कर जोड़ि धिआवउ ॥
Āṯẖ pahar kar joṛ ḏẖi▫āva▫o.
Twenty-four hours a day, with palms pressed together, I meditate;







उन साधा का दरसनु पावउ ॥
Un sāḏẖā kā ḏarsan pāva▫o.
I yearn to obtain the Blessed Vision of the Darshan of those Holy Saints.



मोहि गरीब कउ लेहु रलाइ ॥
Mohi garīb ka▫o leho ralā▫e.
Merge me, the poor one, with You, O Lord;



नानक आइ पए सरणाइ ॥४॥३८॥८९॥
Nānak ā▫e pa▫e sarṇā▫e. ||4||38||89||
Nanak has come to Your Sanctuary. ||4||38||89||



आसा महला ५ ॥
Āsā mėhlā 5.
Aasaa, Fifth Mehl:



आठ पहर उदक इसनानी ॥
Āṯẖ pahar uḏak isnānī.
Twenty-four hours a day, he takes his cleansing bath in water;




सद ही भोगु लगाइ सुगिआनी ॥
Saḏ hī bẖog lagā▫e sugi▫ānī.
he makes continual offerings to the Lord; he is a true man of wisdom.







बिरथा काहू छोडै नाही ॥
Birthā kāhū cẖẖodai nāhī.
He never leaves anything uselessly.



बहुरि बहुरि तिसु लागह पाई ॥१॥
Bahur bahur ṯis lāgah pā▫ī. ||1||
Again and again, he falls at the Lord's Feet. ||1||



सालगिरामु हमारै सेवा ॥
Sālgirām hamārai sevā.
Such is the Saalagraam (Saligramam), which I serve;



पूजा अरचा बंदन देवा ॥१॥ रहाउ ॥
Pūjā arcẖā banḏan ḏevā. ||1|| rahā▫o.
such is my worship, flower-offerings and divine adoration as well. ||1||Pause||



घंटा जा का सुनीऐ चहु कुंट ॥
Gẖantā jā kā sunī▫ai cẖahu kunt.
His bell resounds to the four corners of the world.



आसनु जा का सदा बैकुंठ ॥
Āsan jā kā saḏā baikunṯẖ.
His seat is forever in heaven.



जा का चवरु सभ ऊपरि झूलै ॥
Jā kā cẖavar sabẖ ūpar jẖūlai.
His chauri, his fly-brush, waves over all.



ता का धूपु सदा परफुलै ॥२॥
Ŧā kā ḏẖūp saḏā parfulai. ||2||
His incense is ever-fragrant. ||2||



घटि घटि स्मपटु है रे जा का ॥
Gẖat gẖat sampat hai re jā kā.
He is treasured in each and every heart.



अभग सभा संगि है साधा ॥
Abẖag sabẖā sang hai sāḏẖā.
The Saadh Sangat, the Company of the Holy, is His Eternal Court.



आरती कीरतनु सदा अनंद ॥
Ārṯī kīrṯan saḏā anand.
His Aartee, his lamp-lit worship service, is the Kirtan of His Praises, which brings lasting bliss.



महिमा सुंदर सदा बेअंत ॥३॥
Mahimā sunḏar saḏā be▫anṯ. ||3||
His Greatness is so beautiful, and ever limitless. ||3||



जिसहि परापति तिस ही लहना ॥
Jisahi parāpaṯ ṯis hī lahnā.
He alone obtains it, who is so pre-ordained;



संत चरन ओहु आइओ सरना ॥
Sanṯ cẖaran oh ā▫i▫o sarnā.
he takes to the Sanctuary of the Saints' Feet.



हाथि चड़िओ हरि सालगिरामु ॥
Hāth cẖaṛi▫o har sālgirām.
I hold in my hands the Saalagraam of the Lord Hari.



कहु नानक गुरि कीनो दानु ॥४॥३९॥९०॥
Kaho Nānak gur kīno ḏān. ||4||39||90||
Says Nanak, the Guru has given me this Gift. ||4||39||90||



आसा महला ५ पंचपदा ॥
Āsā mėhlā 5 pancẖpaḏā.
Aasaa, Fifth Mehl, Panch-Pada:



जिह पैडै लूटी पनिहारी ॥
Jih paidai lūtī panihārī.
That highway, upon which the water-carrier is plundered -



सो मारगु संतन दूरारी ॥१॥
So mārag sanṯan ḏūrārī. ||1||
that way is far removed from the Saints. ||1||



सतिगुर पूरै साचु कहिआ ॥
Saṯgur pūrai sācẖ kahi▫ā.
The True Guru has spoken the Truth.



नाम तेरे की मुकते बीथी जम का मारगु दूरि रहिआ ॥१॥ रहाउ ॥
Nām ṯere kī mukṯe bīthī jam kā mārag ḏūr rahi▫ā. ||1|| rahā▫o.
Your Name, O Lord, is the Way to Salvation; the road of the Messenger of Death is far away. ||1||Pause||



जह लालच जागाती घाट ॥
Jah lālacẖ jāgāṯī gẖāt.
That place, where the greedy toll-collector dwells -



दूरि रही उह जन ते बाट ॥२॥
Ḏūr rahī uh jan ṯe bāt. ||2||
that path remains far removed from the Lord's humble servant. ||2||



जह आवटे बहुत घन साथ ॥
Jah āvte bahuṯ gẖan sāth.
There, where so very many caravans of men are caught,



पारब्रहम के संगी साध ॥३॥
Pārbarahm ke sangī sāḏẖ. ||3||
the Holy Saints remain with the Supreme Lord. ||3||



चित्र गुपतु सभ लिखते लेखा ॥
Cẖiṯar gupaṯ sabẖ likẖ▫ṯe lekẖā.
Chitra Gupat, the recording angel of the conscious and the unconscious, writes the accounts of all mortal beings,



भगत जना कउ द्रिसटि न पेखा ॥४॥
Bẖagaṯ janā ka▫o ḏarisat na pekẖā. ||4||
but he cannot even see the Lord's Bhagat (Bhakatas or Bhagavatas). ||4||



कहु नानक जिसु सतिगुरु पूरा ॥
Kaho Nānak jis saṯgur pūrā.
Says Nanak, one whose True Guru is Perfect -



वाजे ता कै अनहद तूरा ॥५॥४०॥९१॥
vāje ṯā kai anhaḏ ṯūrā. ||5||40||91||
the unblown bugles of ecstasy vibrate for him. ||5||40||91||



आसा महला ५ दुपदा १ ॥
Āsā mėhlā 5 ḏupḏā 1.
Aasaa, Fifth Mehl, Du-Pada 1:



साधू संगि सिखाइओ नामु ॥
Sāḏẖū sang sikẖā▫i▫o nām.
In the Saadh Sangat, the Company of the Holy, the Naam is learned;



सरब मनोरथ पूरन काम ॥
Sarab manorath pūran kām.
all desires and tasks are fulfilled.







बुझि गई त्रिसना हरि जसहि अघाने ॥
Bujẖ ga▫ī ṯarisnā har jasėh agẖāne.
My thirst has been quenched, and I am satiated with the Lord Hari's Praise.




जपि जपि जीवा सारिगपाने ॥१॥
Jap jap jīvā sārigpāne. ||1||
I live by chanting and meditating upon Lord Sarangapaani (सारिगपाने), the Sustainer of the earth. ||1||



करन करावन सरनि परिआ ॥
Karan karāvan saran pari▫ā.
I have entered the Sanctuary of the Creator, the Cause of all causes.






Page 1190, Line 18
िमहरवान मधुसूदन माधौ ऐसी सकित तु��हारी ॥१॥ रहाउ ॥
O Merciful Lord, Destroyer of Madhu, Madho, such is Your Power -
Your Shakti. ||1||Pause||
Page 443

हरणाखसु दसु टु हिर मािरआ ��हलाद ु तराइआ ॥ 13
Hari killed the wicked Harnaakhash, and saved Prahlaad.

जन की पैज रखै राम नामा ��िहलाद उधािर तराए ॥ 16
Ram's Name preserves the honor of His servant, as He preserved and emancipated Prahlaad.

Page 637:

��िहलाद जन तुधु रािख लए हिर जीउ हरणाखसु मािर पचाइआ ॥
You protected Your servant Prahlaad, O Dear Hari, and annihilated Harnaakhash.
Page 984, Line 6

Dhroo, Prahlaad and Bidar (Vidura) the slave-girl's son, became Gurmukh, and through the Naam, crossed over. ||
1||Pause||
Page 1117, Line 3
The Simritees and the Shaastras all confirm that Suk Dayv and Prahlaad meditated on the Guru, Govinda,
and knew Him as Sri Raam.

OjasM
19 February 2012, 07:36 AM
Namaste,

I often tell people I was not born Hindu, but I was born Sikh. I then have to qualify my statement by saying, "But then again, Sikhism really is just another form of Hinduism anyway" However, I find that many Sikhs do not accept this. I once had a very brief debate with the president of the Sikh society at my university. Ironically, both the Sikh societies and Hindu societies were having an event and I was intending to go the Hindu society. I accidentally ended up meeting the Sikh society people, and mistook them to be the Hindu society! After a while, I realized I had actually come to the wrong society, when I said to a Sikh member assuming he was a member of the Hindu society, "There really is not that much difference between Sikhism and Hinduism is there" He lashed back, "No, there is a lot of difference, were a completely different religion"

What differences? The only differences I can observe is that the rituals, the symbols and the styles in Sikhism are different, but the substance is exactly the same: Same core beliefs(Dharma, Karma, Reincarnation, Moksha, Atman, Brahman) Same core practices(Kirtan, Yoga, Puja(book instead of idol) Seva) Same structure, morality and order(Guru parmpara, yama and niyamas)

Some Sikhs counter all of this by saying Sikhism is different because the founder Guru Nanak was the first in India to reject idol worship in favor of naam japa and kirtan, to create a monotheistic super-personal god, to reject the caste system, to promote equality of men and women etc. However, my research has shown me Sikhism was just another branch of the Bhakti movement, and many notable philosophers and saints like Naam Dev etc had already done the same.

Thus, if we actually really look at the facts, Sikhism is basically just another branch of the Bhakti movement within Hinduism. Its status as a separate and independent religion is highly dubious.

Yes I do believe that sikhism is a cult of the bhakti movement .Famous marathi saint Naam Dev has also contributed to the Aadi grantha.