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wundermonk
04 February 2012, 12:46 AM
Greetings All:

Assume there is divine justice.

Hitler slaughters 6 million innocent Jews in WW2. How does Xian/Mohammedan soteriology work here?

It appears that as per Xity, if Hitler asked for forgiveness on his death bed, all would been forgiven. So, all Hitler had to to was "accept JC as his personal lord and saviour".

Likewise, in Islam, had Hitler pronounced "There is no God but God and Mohammed is his last messenger" before breathing his last, Allah would have forgiven his sins and provided him with unending bliss [and 72 you know whos] in heaven.

Thus, an Abrahamic faithful in her afterlife has every chance of meeting Hitler in heaven.

I find this absolutely disgusting. If I were to meet Hitler in heaven, I would have serious issues with the God. There is no way I am worshipping a God that provides a chance for Hitler to so easily enter heaven.

Hitler's crimes HAVE to be worked out via Karma. That is justice. We may not know how exactly Hitler's soul pays for Hitler's crimes. But that is an epistemological issue. We dont NEED to know the details. Per Karma, his soul WILL pay. That is guaranteed.

Thoughts?

Sahasranama
04 February 2012, 01:28 AM
My thoughts are that we should stop lamenting on Christianity.

In Hinduism we have similar beliefs, the bhagavad gita says:

Antakale cha mameva smaran muktva kalevaram, yah prayati sa madbhavam yati nasty atra samsayah (8.5): “Whoever contemplates My Glorious Being while leaving this body will be inundated with that Being after death.”

The Bhagavatam tells the story of Ajamila who is freed from his sins only uttering the word "Narayana".

In the Vishnu Purana it is mentioned that rituals and prayaschitta can absolve bad karma. Many Hindus belief that taking a dip in the ganges will absolve sins.

A lot of arguments against abrahamics made by Hindus are blindly taken from atheists.

wundermonk
04 February 2012, 01:33 AM
Yes, the BG does say that. But I think, in general, that cannot be taken literally. Karma Phala will HAVE to be worked out regardless of "beliefs". It is action that burns sins and not beliefs.

Sahasranama
04 February 2012, 01:44 AM
There is indeed a difference, because in Hinduism karma is just like fire, it burns whether you belief in it or not. In the case of Ajamila, he did not say Narayana with faith, but was only calling out the name of his son. He still was absolved of his sins. In the story of Shivaratri, the hunter did not know he was offering bilva leaves to Shiva, but he still got the result of Shiva Ratri Vrata. So far the differences, but the obvious similarity is that Hinduism also offers the opportunity to absolve sins, even through such simple acts as calling out a name or remembering. If you tell your atheists friends about it, they will not hesitate to smack you down as much as they would do to a Christian.

Surya Deva
04 February 2012, 03:10 AM
The obvious problems I have with these stories you are giving of examples of people who have absolved their sins by praying/repenting to god, is none of these are historical people, they are mythological. I really hate it when Hindus cite from a mythological stories to back up their argument on something. A fundamentalist Hindu pandit gave me a story from the Puranas of some bramachari who was forced to reincarnate again to live the life of a householder to support his argument that I must get married in life, I cannot reject marriage.

There is an obvious ethical problem in the OP, which needs a better answer. If somebody like Hitler who was instrumental in killing 6 million jews can get salvation at the end of their life simply by professing faith god in his last hour, then that makes such a god absurdly unjust. Allow me to illustrate:

If entry into heaven is predicated by faith in god then an atheist who saves 6 million jews will get eternal damnation, but Hitler who kills 6 million jews will get salvation.
If entry into heaven is predicated by faith in god or action, then both an atheist who saves 6 million jews and Hitler who kills 6 million jews will get salvation.

The above are both cases of injustice. The only just case would be if entry into heaven is predicated by action only. In which case an atheist who saves 6 million jews can never be equal with Hitler who kills 6 million jews.

Now how do we reconcile the statement in the Gita that if one thinks of god in the last hour of their life they will attain to him? The condition here is that one must be able to think of god at the last hour, but perhaps that is impossible for somebody who is not yet expunged of sin or desire. If one still has sin or desire remaining with them in the last hour, then it the desire or sin they think of, and not god. Thus it is impossible for somebody like Hitler to think of god in the last hour.

If entry into heaven/salvation is purely predicated by action then there is no possibility of being granted grace or forgiveness, only ones action alone can absolve previous actions. If Hitler's soul kills 6 million jews, but then in the next life saves 6 million lives, does the soul still have to incur the penalty of killing 6 million jews or is its karmic balance clear? The karmic balance should be clear.

However, are there alternative ways other than moral action topurify ones sin? In Yoga it is believed that yoga can purify ones sin. If Hitler meditated intensely he can also absolve his sins by burning up the storehouse of samskaras(a burnt seed cannot germinate) Likewise, if he practiced bhakti or karma he can do the same.

satay
04 February 2012, 08:08 AM
Namaste,
In chapter 2 Gita it is explained that it is not the killing that is the sin in itself but the intent and if that killing is in accord with ones duty. When speaking of hitler one must look at his intent and not only action. God has already explained that in Gita. Every action is judged by the karmic law in terms of accordance with ones duty.
That said, I agree with the op. I refuse to accept the heaven in which criminals are sitting with god. To that end I reject such an unjust, egoist and foolish god.

Adhvagat
04 February 2012, 08:23 AM
The very concept of salvationism is weird.

What will then happen with all of the person's desires, limitations, anarthas, etc? Will they all be wiped away so this person stays in a heavenly situation? For what? Makes no sense at all.

Heaven is a state of "mind". The evolution of consciousness involves struggles, hardship, realizations, etc. And it is in this process that men ascend to a heavenly existence.

sanjaya
04 February 2012, 02:08 PM
Well, you're never going to find me disagreeing with someone who speaks negatively of Christianity. I agree wholeheartedly that Christianity has an utterly immoral view of the afterlife. However, it may not be for the reasons we all want to think.

I believe Hitler is a fine example to use here, so long as we all recognize that we're simply using his name as a placeholder for the Platonic ideal of an absolute bad guy. In the Christian mindset, he could be absolved of his sins by simply accepting Jesus as his lord and savior. I'm sure the Christian would add that he must sincerely repent of his sins. But the effect is nonetheless that Hitler escapes eternal hell while all of us Hindus, good and bad, are condemned to eternal punishment (additional caveat: Christians redefine good and bad in terms of whether you believe in Jesus, so we are all bad for being Hindus). But as Sahasranama pointed out, we've got similar beliefs in Hinduism. And we needn't simply look to arcane stories from the Puranas. Every month when several of us do the Satyanarayana Puja, we are asking God to release us from the burden of our sins. And really, you're going to find this in any religion. Anyone who believes in a God believes that he is willing to forgive a good deal of sin if we are truly devoted to him.

However, in the Hitler example there's one issue that everyone has overlooked. Whether Hitler believes in Jesus and is saved or does not and is condemned, each of the Jews he killed ends up in hell for not giving up their religion and converting to Christianity. And that, I think, is the truly immoral part of Christian soteriology. Hindus do not condemn others to eternal torment, even if we believe that our religion is objectively true to the exclusion of others. Sri Krishna says that those who worship other gods are unknowingly directing their devotion to him. This is what I think separates Hinduism from Christianity. Yes, we do believe that you don't need to necessarily reap the ill effects of your sin if you are a devotee of God. But we do not believe that a non-Hindu will burn for all eternity due to theological error.

wundermonk
04 February 2012, 02:17 PM
Whether Hitler believes in Jesus and is saved or does not and is condemned, each of the Jews he killed ends up in hell for not giving up their religion and converting to Christianity.

Yes indeed.

In fact, you raise an important issue. I ask the following question to Abrahamics every chance that I get.

How does your God allocate souls to newborns? Is it random? It HAS to be random for your theology does not allow for souls to be differentiated prior to birth. There is no concept of Karma. Assuming most of us end up living and dying in the cultural/traditional/religious setup that we were born into, it is manifestly unfair that my soul ended up in a Hindu family if Hinduism is a false religion.

If Shia Islam is the one true religion, why did my soul not take birth in a Shiite family? Why the blantant favouritism, Allah?

The Abrahamics usually come back with "But you can always convert to Shia Islam. Allah is benevolent you know?"

How 1.5 Billion Muslims and 2.5 Billion Christians believe in such nonsense is beyond me.

wundermonk
04 February 2012, 02:22 PM
There is yet another argument against Islamic soteriology brought up by Ibn Rushd in his "Incoherence of the Incoherence (http://www.muslimphilosophy.com/ir/tt/tt-all.htm)".

Per Islam, any child [regardless of faith] that dies less than 10 years of age automatically enters heaven.

[Of course, this then raises the issue of whether everyone in heaven will be of the same age and if so, what age will that be, and if that age is 33 years, how will children who died less than 10 years of age on earth grow up to be 33 years in heaven. But that is for a separate thread. ;) ]

I will let Ibn Rushd speak for himself:


Let us imagine a child and a grown-up in Heaven who both died in the True Faith, but the grown-up has a higher place than the child. And the child will ask God, “Why did you give that man a higher place?” And God will answer, “He has done many good works.” Then the child will say, “Why did you let me die so soon so that I was prevented from doing good?” God will answer, “I knew that you would grow up a sinner, therefore it was better that you should die a child.” Then a cry goes up from the damned in the depths of Hell, “Why, O Lord, did you not let us die before we became sinners?”

MahaHrada
04 February 2012, 02:34 PM
Whether Hitler believes in Jesus and is saved or does not and is condemned, each of the Jews he killed ends up in hell for not giving up their religion and converting to Christianity. And that, I think, is the truly immoral part of Christian soteriology. .... But we do not believe that a non-Hindu will burn for all eternity due to theological error.

I am living in a christian country and i really dislike this religion but to be fair i must say i never met a christian who belives or even knows that he must belive such hair raising theologies to be a christian. Apparently judging from this thread, Hindus know Christianity better than the Christians i know.
Except some raving fanatics that hand out leaflets in the streets, nobody belives in adam and eve, original sin, heaven and hell or the existance of the devil. Or thinks that you have to belive in Jesus to go to heaven. (or even belives that there is a heaven or life after death) But if you ask them nonetheless they would say they are Christians. What that practically means is that they belive that there is a god, they have to marry in a church and service must be held when they have a child or die, and they think one should be a good person not steal and lie etc. because god said so, there is hardly anyone who would care so much as to privately say a prayer.

Probably it is so that hindu and islamic society is that fanatic about all religious topics and so they think that everybody else must just be as preoccupied with religious beliefs in such an exaggerated way, and feel offended every other day and rant and rave about such things just as they do, so it is a cultural gap and some people cannot imagine how few Christians are interested in what kind of rubbish exactly is written in the bible. They may have a bible somewhere in the house their grand grand father bought, but no one is reading that book.
Maybe in some parts of the USA this is different, in the so called bible belt. But one would be hard pressed to find anyone in Europe who would belief for one second that a Hindu or Jew would end up in hell and Hitler in Heaven.
There will come a day when no one but Hindus and Muslims will be interested in what kind of rubbish exactly is written in the Bible :) and still take these idiotic superstitions from a long bygone age serious enough to rant on about it, when everyone else has already forgotten about this dumb book for ages.

Moonlight
05 February 2012, 06:14 AM
I was thinking about something similar to this and came up with something cool.

So the saying goes that in the end times someone will come to you and say something like "have you yearned for a massiah to save you?" to me that seems very egoistic question to ask "oh yes! I have yearned the massiah all my life please save me!" 

A wise person would say "I have not yearned for a massiah, for my goal is not to desire but to serve the heavenly father by Reading his scriptures around the world" they would say "explain" and the wise reply "the scriptures teaches us not to desire but to serve without any attachments, if you let those who are attached to there egos you are letting dirt enter the heavens.

For sure hitler and others alike will not enter the higher realms and now thinking about it there was a parable which is symbolic where it says that the dirty (egoistic) clothed man will be kicked out and the ones in white robes (pure clean mind like a child) will stay. 

So people like hitler and Constantine will not enter cause of there egoistic desires. It's clear in all scriptures that you must be clean inside like clear water.

Alot of people have great anger here when it comes to abrhamic's topics.

Read Bhagavad Gita Chapter 12:13-20

And as for the Christains...
A verse written 2,000 years ago by the Gnostics:

"if someone dives deep into the well of living water and surfaces empty handed, saying, "I am a Christian,"
He has only borrowed the name with intrest. 
If he receives the holy spirit, his Name is the gift" 
"John wrote, "truth will set you free"
Ignorance is slavery
Self knowledge Is liberation.

nither hitler nor Constantine or any Christain have gained Self knowledge and only borrowed the name with intrest. No one will enter heaven till they reach that oneness.                

satay
06 February 2012, 10:37 AM
namaste,
anger? We are just discussing the rubbish of the abrahamic. There is nothing wrong with that.

It has been conculded by many internet christians that hitler or anyone accepting JC as their only saviour and lord ends up in heaven in service of Bible God.

Go to any christian forum and ask. :rolleyes: There is no point sitting there with your head in the sand and shooting the messenger. Hindus didn't make up this nonsense, christians are telling us to accept JC if we want to end up in heaven. Bible God is rubbish nonsense.




Alot of people have great anger here when it comes to abrhamic's topics.

satay
06 February 2012, 10:45 AM
namaste Maha,



Except some raving fanatics that hand out leaflets in the streets, nobody belives in adam and eve, original sin, heaven and hell or the existance of the devil. Or thinks that you have to belive in Jesus to go to heaven. (or even belives that there is a heaven or life after death) .

Up here in Canada what you are saying about Christians is simply not true. One only needs to watch the sunday services on TV or in person to find out. When was the last time you attended a church or watched a service on TV? I watch two services every Sunday just to keep in the know.:cool1:

Adhvagat
06 February 2012, 11:02 AM
Satay, but Mahahrad has a point.

Hindus take themselves seriously because dharma/religion is ingrained in their social living in a different way.

A Christian may call himself one but may be one in a very irreflected manner.

MahaHrada
06 February 2012, 11:44 AM
namaste Maha,



Up here in Canada what you are saying about Christians is simply not true. One only needs to watch the sunday services on TV or in person to find out. When was the last time you attended a church or watched a service on TV? I watch two services every Sunday just to keep in the know.:cool1:

Here they have no christian channel, also no services or sermons on tv of any kind, no one would listen, if a cleric would talk about the devil ore hell people would leave i guess, but i only have been in church at funerals and there was not one who even wanted a cleric do the talk.
Probably i am blesssed to live in europe :) If there would be sermons on tv people would be bored

satay
06 February 2012, 11:49 AM
namaste,
Ah...I thought you were in the US. Yes, in Europe they don't have the services on TV at least not in the part that I visited a few years back.
I think Europeans have finally realized the truth and successfully exported their garbage to other continents. :)


Here they have no christian channel, also no services or sermons on tv of any kind, no one would listen, if a cleric would talk about the devil ore hell people would leave i guess, but i only have been in church at funerals and there was not one who even wanted a cleric do the talk.
Probably i am blesssed to live in europe :) If there would be sermons on tv people would be bored

Jainarayan
06 February 2012, 11:50 AM
Namaste satayji and others.


Namaste,
In chapter 2 Gita it is explained that it is not the killing that is the sin in itself but the intent and if that killing is in accord with ones duty. When speaking of hitler one must look at his intent and not only action. God has already explained that in Gita. Every action is judged by the karmic law in terms of accordance with ones duty.
That said, I agree with the op. I refuse to accept the heaven in which criminals are sitting with god. To that end I reject such an unjust, egoist and foolish god.

I'm late to this, but satayji hit the nail on the head. It's not the action but the intent. I'd like to add something further. Lord Krishna also says in Bhagavad Gita 9.30 "Even if one commits the most abominable action, if he is engaged in devotional service he is to be considered saintly because he is properly situated in his determination."

One cannot deliberately commit an "abominable act" if one is focused and fixed on the Lord. I cannot and will not subscribe to the idea that Hitler or Pol Pot or Aileen Wuornos were redeemed and given salvation because they uttered the names of God at their deaths.

In VishishtAdvaita there are two thoughts:

Vadakalai View Some positive gesture is necessary on the part of the jeevatma to deserve the grace of God, because He can be deemed partial if He grants Moksha to all both deserving and undeserving.

Thenkalai View Lord's grace is spontaneous. He grants Moksha to anyone who accepts Him alone as the means to attain it and has the ripened desire to attain it.

Unless I'm totally dense, I don't see much difference between these two schools of thought. The common thread is that one must make gestures (i.e. bhakti, imo) for salvation. I do not believe that means living a life of evil then at the last moment calling out "Hare Krishna!" and expecting grace and moksha.

Jainarayan
06 February 2012, 12:02 PM
Namaste.

If you're talking about what I think you're talking about, that's "evangelical worshiptainment". It's an abomination and a joke. I can't help but laugh at the fire and brimstone sermons, the closed eyes and uplifted hands, not to mention the swaying as if it were California's "Big One". The tv commercials for "Christian Rock" music are no less laughable. These people are just trying too hard. And they are dangerous, though the sermons of Mother Angelica and Bishop Fulton J. Sheen (Roman Catholics) are no less narrow-minded, but at least are not hate-filled and full of "you'll burn in hell" drivel.


namaste Maha,



Up here in Canada what you are saying about Christians is simply not true. One only needs to watch the sunday services on TV or in person to find out. When was the last time you attended a church or watched a service on TV? I watch two services every Sunday just to keep in the know.:cool1:

MahaHrada
06 February 2012, 12:08 PM
namaste,
Ah...I thought you were in the US. Yes, in Europe they don't have the services on TV at least not in the part that I visited a few years back.
I think Europeans have finally realized the truth and successfully exported their garbage to other continents. :)

Yes U.S must be a terrible place regarding christian superstitions, and hate speech tv preachers, i thought canada is more advanced. It is sad to hear that there are still so many people who think like that outside the bible belt.

MahaHrada
06 February 2012, 12:14 PM
Satay, but Mahahrad has a point.

Hindus take themselves seriously because dharma/religion is ingrained in their social living in a different way.

A Christian may call himself one but may be one in a very irreflected manner.

At least we should not take that stuff more serious than the Christians themselves:) I think in europe if a preacher that said Adolf Hitler is Heaven and the Jews in hell he would get kicked out of his job, had to pay a large fines or even end up in Jail for hate speech.

Eastern Mind
06 February 2012, 12:15 PM
Yes U.S must be a terrible place regarding christian superstitions, and hate speech tv preachers, i thought canada is more advanced. It is sad to hear that there are still so many people who think like that outside the bible belt.

Vannakkam MH et al: What I always find so incredibly striking (most especially in contrast to hearing a swami speak) is the yelling and the anger. These preachers stand there and actually just yell at the congregation. Its like taking some verbal back-lashing from a parent for an hour. The older fellows often wear toupees. It's truly remarkable to watch, even for a moment. Some kind of weird masochistic therapy from another planet.

If I was there and he was screaming about hell, I'd be thinking, "Tell me about it." :)

Canada is more advanced just that in our pockets of bible belt are smaller.

Aum Namasivaya

Moonlight
06 February 2012, 12:58 PM
Hi satay ^^

I totally agree with you on there stupid
behavior. Like 95% don't even read there bibles nor understand it's meaning which is pretty sad and I can see why the Gnostics said about people comming out the well empty handed and calling themselves Christains. 

What theses fakes don't realize Is to belive in Christ is to belive in the Self.

The isha Upanishad verse 3

"those who deny the Self are born again Blind to the Self, enveloped in darkness, Utterly devoid of love for the lord."

They only love feeding there lust and pride and this is wrong and they should work on themselves. 

If they truly had the holy spirit which is universal and the root of all religions, they wouldn't be acting like animals.

MahaHrada
06 February 2012, 02:03 PM
Like 95% don't even read there bibles nor understand it's meaning which is pretty sad and I can see why the Gnostics said about people comming out the well empty handed and calling themselves Christains. 

What theses fakes don't realize Is to belive in Christ is to belive in the Self.

The isha Upanishad verse 3

"those who deny the Self are born again Blind to the Self, enveloped in darkness, Utterly devoid of love for the lord."

They only love feeding there lust and pride and this is wrong and they should work on themselves. 

If they truly had the holy spirit which is universal and the root of all religions, they wouldn't be acting like animals.

I hate to break the bad news to you but Jesu was one of the bad guys, and those that read and understand the bible are the most dangerous people and it is those we have to fear the most.

The only good christian is a bad christian the one who has no idea what kind of evil is written in that book.

Most of what he did was to preach hate against his co -religionist like the pharisees and other sects of the traditional hebrew priests and rabbis who had no intent of subjugating others to their beliefs or to convert others.

This fanatic incited unrest intolerance evil and strife and uprisings in the society as well as the family only the lowest slaves and degraded people followed him. Christianity was a slave religion and they came to power by a brutal and violent slave uprising.

The execution of this criminal was the appropriate reaction of the pagan roman empire who had a pluralistic view of religion the only problem was that it was too late and his poison had already spread among the uneducated and primitive masses of slave laborers in the followup it brought the downfall of spiritually and scientifically highly evolved ancient cultures suffocating everything that is good.

Moonlight
06 February 2012, 02:38 PM
Hello mahaHrada ^^


I must be Reading a different book then o_O lol nah I used to hate the bible and the storys but when you look at it in a different way it's a good read. I see Jesus teachings all based on the ego and desires and that those desires can never enter the higher realms. I can't stand Paul's writing but some of the spiritual things he talks about I take.
 
"take what is useful and develop from there" - Bruce lee

I use all scriptures and improve myself.

Heck in Romans 13 Paul thinks Nero and all rulers of the world are choosen by god >_> lol some things in that book is amusing  

MahaHrada
06 February 2012, 03:09 PM
lol some things in that book is amusing  

No i dont think anything in this book is amusing. Jesus Christ and his teaching Christianity is the greatest catastrophe that ever happened to this planet and to makind, besides throwing the development of art, science, and religion backwards for several thousand years, it is also endangering today the survival of one of the last remnants of ancient pagan times, Bharat varsha and Dharma via Islam and the Jihadis.

There would be no Islam without the barbarism of the christian faith, since Judaism, like all the ancient religions, was never interested in conversions.

The human race has not fully revived from the impact of this barbaric religion, and probably never will, since it brought Islam in its wake and the Jihad is now endangering the physical survival of the human race because nuclear weapons are already in the hands of Jihadis in Pakistan and soon maybe in Iran as well.

At least there is a great chance that all freedom of thought and religion and free and humanist society, as we know it will be soon a thing of the past caused by the virulent spread of Islam.

When i was in Cyprus looking at the ruins of the ancient pagan temples houses and theaters that are quite well preserved, i realised what a beautiful amazing place this planet would have been without Christianity.

Seeing with my own eyes the remnants of this glorious age and the subsequent destruction and degeneration that followed,and when i realisied where we would have been now and what was missed by mankind just because Jesus survived his infancy, was one of the saddest moments in my life.

sdevante
06 April 2012, 11:45 PM
This fanatic incited unrest intolerance evil and strife and uprisings in the society as well as the family only the lowest slaves and degraded people followed him. Christianity was a slave religion and they came to power by a brutal and violent slave uprising.


That is a fascinating perspective I never thought of.

Fwiw, I live in the heart of the U.S. Bile Belt, and these people are fanatical crazy but also quite hypocritical.

Lastly, I am fairly convinced that Jesus never really existed.

That was a whole lot of random things directed at no one in particular, lol. I grew up in a devout Christian family and I have a lot of baggage, lol.

Maya3
08 April 2012, 09:42 AM
This is a chewy thread with a lot of interesting points for discussion.
But I will begin with the first one about Hitler.

I'm sure that Hitler could not just say that he believed in Jesus and then go straight to heaven.

But lets just say that he sat down and meditated during the last minutes of his life and reached Samadhi. If this happened he would understand what he did, he would understand that he was responsible for all these dead people and the karma that would happened after this due to his and the other Nazis actions.
He would know that he would have to go back again, and again, and again to serve and to help people and the planet. If this did happen he would probably spend lifetimes upon lifetimes devoted to service.

But I'm pretty sure that a person like Hitler would never be able to sit down and become Self Realized, so it is pretty safe to say that he is around now doing something else, it'll be a long time before he has the opportunity to realize who he is. He probably came back as a little krill in the sea.


I agree with MahaHrada that a lot of Christians don't really know what Christianity really teaches, in Europe there are very few fanatics compared to the US.

I wonder how many really believe in the resurrection in Europe?
Since it's Easter I have seen several facebook posts about how Jesus was tortured for hours and hours and hours, and then somehow that means that people are forgiven. People post these torture videos as if it is a good thing! It also means that after people have died, Jesus will come back and restore the body on judgment day. He proved this by getting out of his grave after being tortured to death for three days.
So even if Jesus comes back 1000 years after we die, he will restore the bodies of those who believed in him. Imagine how a body would look after 1000 years in a grave...

This I find very very weird. How can people use the image of someone tortured to death as the symbol of their religion? And how can the believe in the resurrection?

I do think that lots of Christians are unaware of that and they think of Jesus as a teacher who will meet them in Heaven when they die.

Maya

JaiMaaDurga
08 April 2012, 06:53 PM
Namaste,

Other issues many Abrahamics seem unwilling to truly examine include:

-The inarguable evidence that much of their "Divine Word" derived from pre-existing beliefs.
If they wish to worship the original Middle Eastern deity that supposedly saved devotees from a flood sent as divine punishment,
then they should be rebuilding a temple to the old Sumerian god Enki..

-The Christians' need to identify with, and focus on, their early status as a persecuted minority-
which has not been the case since approximately the year 325, at least..
which means that about 83% of their history does not feature being either persecuted, or a social minority.

-Any and all variations of "extra Ecclesiam nulla salus",
being Latin for "Outside the Church, there is no salvation".
What a lovely thought- that someone born in, say, an untouched pocket of the Amazon,
who has never heard of Jesus, Allah, or any Abrahamic belief whatsoever, has no other destiny than to suffer eternal torment upon death.

-An underlying masochism, the obsession with all things physical and material in nature
being inherently sinful, corrupt, filthy, impure, abominable, etc.
There is a deep difference in the thoughts, words and actions of those who believe
that there is either only eternal Heaven or eternal Hell awaiting after death, and those of us that do not share this view...

-The absurd lengths required by any flavor of Judaic, Christian, or Muslim theodicy.
A flawless premise does not give rise to the elaborate and convoluted arguments and justifications found in most apologetic works..

I only mention these things, as points that have been useful to make, when aggressively challenged by Abrahamics.

JAI MATA DI

Believer
13 May 2012, 03:03 PM
Namaste,

Interesting thread.
Does anyone have more realizations to share?

Pranam.