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Eastern Mind
20 February 2012, 12:51 PM
Vannakkam: My sister called this morning to inform me my Aunt passed away, at about 1:30 AM last night. I left the temple at about 1:20 AM. I am not in the least upset about my aunt's passing; she was 95 or so, and ready for it. The timing was 'interesting'.

Over in the Philippines, another loved one, by someone else, also passed. It does not bother me, in the least.

My aunt's death could bother me ..... if I let it, but I'm choosing not to. Why could it? Is it not because of attachment? I knew her. We had shared memories. I could be all over it, tears starting another salt flow. But I look at my aunt's passing as the same as the Philippine stranger's passing. It is as if I didn't know my aunt, and the comparison helps in the detachment ability.

Same with potential experiences ... suppose a good friend's wedding, or a Hindu festival. We get attached to this idea, or to put it better, we allow ourselves, our emotions to get attached to this idea.

Then, the night before, we come down with a nasty illness, a kid gets really sick, religious protocol says we shouldn't go, or some higher calling comes. Still we allow ourselves to be upset.

Mature Hindus don't. They take it all in stride.

Five years ago my Guru was coming to town. Big event ... only happens once every 3 years, maybe less. My Mother-in-Law passed. Protocol (deeper mystical reasons, actually) said we couldn't see Guruji. So we didn't. It didn't bother us. There will another time, another lifetime, another date with destiny.

Just as the losing sporting teams say year after year .... guess we'll just have to wait until next year.

Sorry for the Sivaratri ramble. I'm tired.

Aum Namasivaya

Believer
20 February 2012, 01:07 PM
Namaste,

Sorry about your loss, but your reaction is an example to every Hindu on how to handle such events.

Pranam.

NayaSurya
20 February 2012, 01:13 PM
Attachment or not...hmmmm it's all relative to our reasons for being here...or not.:p

We all have our own ways of dissolving.

Mine?
Love...until there simply is nothing left.
Like sugar and lemons into clean water.

I think it is wonderful to become involved with Beloved Portions here.
But, that's because my time here needed these wonderful children.
It's the only reason I linger so...

But, about your aunt. With the aged or suffering, I do celebrate. Such a happy thing to watch a Beloved One move on out of this insufferable realm. Birthday parties...have nothing on funerals.:p
Dear Beloved Friend, it is a good thing to become very dear and to have very dear ones here.

These closer relationships bring us so close to Beloved. In a way which can not be experienced in any other conditions but this grossly manifested reality. The trick is to remember to whom you are truly talking to, Beloved.

Just today, I was praying to Beloved Shiva and my lil Bitsy Beloved daughter, a Portion so very close to Shiva's Beloved Heart, came to me and smiled. Her hair, lit by Beloved SuryA in such a way I became breathless. You can see Beloved's Hand working great in magnificent ways here. I am breathless in the wonderment.

A thousand moments of joy dwell stored in this fragile Heart...and all of them brought by such Love.

Such a magnificient moment this is Beloved...and it is ours.

A post on attachment would not be complete without an attachment.<3

http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b294/neolunae/SANY306722.jpg

Eastern Mind
20 February 2012, 01:16 PM
Vannakkam:

Know when to hold 'em.
Know when to fold 'em.

It is absolute duty to hold your little loved ones. :)

Aum Namasivaya

NayaSurya
20 February 2012, 01:23 PM
I love that song.

Especially this way-

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kNnrTNFWcsg

Eastern Mind
20 February 2012, 01:51 PM
I love that song.

Especially this way-

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kNnrTNFWcsg

Vannakkam: Nice. Boss thought the guy on the bench beside Kenny was most like me.

Aum Namasivaya

Seeker123
20 February 2012, 02:58 PM
EM,

Had a similar experience albeit at a smaller level. Was on a vacation and found that my 1 yr old digi camera which was purchased after much research had lost its focus. I will surely lose some money but found that I was not in the least bit worried.

I am for sure concerned about the loss of loved ones, parents etc. Hope God gives me strength at that time.

Nayasurya,

Beautiful poem of the 2 birds. The philosophy in that poem had been discussed in depth in Mundaka Upanishad of Atharva veda.

Mana
20 February 2012, 03:40 PM
Namaste EM,

Death is only a doorway after all, one must pray that the next birth, if required, is an Auspicious one! That your memory's of them are fond, so that you remember them often.

When I lost my Father, a year and a half ago, I had some very strange physical effects happen. I mourned, for all the things we had not done together, yet I know that I have my time in this life, and the next; to learn from and, quite possibly, remake the same mistakes.

praNAma

mana

Aum Namah Shivaya

Eastern Mind
20 February 2012, 04:12 PM
Vannakkam Mana: Actually I don't remember ... or at least try not to remember much. This subconscious mind in this lifetime is full enough of weird shapes and colours without consciously trying to remember more stuff. I want to clear it out through sadhana, which is different from repression.

Aum Namasivaya

charitra
20 February 2012, 04:21 PM
when someone very close passes we do feel guilty ( or may be I must speak for myself and not for ohters) i am not sure why.
My dad's death many years ago make me go through that even today. Some pang and some guilt. Namaste.


Namaste EM,

Death is only a doorway after all, one must pray that the next birth, if required, is an Auspicious one! That your memory's of them are fond, so that you remember them often.

When I lost my Father, a year and a half ago, I had some very strange physical effects happen. I mourned, for all the things we had not done together, yet I know that I have my time in this life, and the next; to learn from and, quite possibly, remake the same mistakes.

praNAma

mana

Aum Namah Shivaya

Jainarayan
20 February 2012, 04:58 PM
Namaste to all.

Just some reflections from the Gita, though not all of us keep this in mind; easier said than remembered:


"Never was there a time when I did not exist, nor you, nor all these kings; nor in the future shall any of us cease to be. As the embodied soul continuously passes, in this body, from boyhood to youth to old age, the soul similarly passes into another body at death. A sober person is not bewildered by such a change." 9.12-13

"That which pervades the entire body you should know to be indestructible. No one is able to destroy that imperishable soul." 2.17

"For the soul there is neither birth nor death at any time. He has not come into being, does not come into being, and will not come into being. He is unborn, eternal, ever-existing and primeval. He is not slain when the body is slain." 2.20

"As a person puts on new garments, giving up old ones, the soul similarly accepts new material bodies, giving up the old and useless ones." 2.22

c.smith
20 February 2012, 05:02 PM
Hari Om EM!

You are a beautiful soul and an example to us all. May Shiva bless you abundantly.

Om Namah Sivaya
Jai Hanuman!

devotee
20 February 2012, 09:56 PM
Namaste EM,

Sorry to hear about the loss of your Aunt.

You can read Bhagwad Gita / Kathopanishad for her at least one day taking out from your busy schedule, if you can.

May God grant her the freedom from the clutches of the deaths and births.

OM

Mana
21 February 2012, 12:19 AM
Vannakkam Mana: Actually I don't remember ... or at least try not to remember much. This subconscious mind in this lifetime is full enough of weird shapes and colours without consciously trying to remember more stuff. I want to clear it out through sadhana, which is different from repression.

Aum Namasivaya

Namaste EM,

We all try to work though our karmas, in the ways which are best suited for our learning, it is the natural state to be in, that of an honest person. I think that your devotion and sadhana, is a most wonderful thing EM!


when someone very close passes we do feel guilty ( or may be I must speak for myself and not for ohters) i am not sure why.
My dad's death many years ago make me go through that even today. Some pang and some guilt. Namaste.

Namaste charitra,

Sorry if this stirs up the past for you:
Guilt is a word, the feeling is undoubtedly karma.
My Father and I had quite a difficult relationship, he was really very narcissistic, this was not at all his fault.
Unwittingly, he refused to acknowledge any spiritual side to life and would psychologically gag me if I spoke of any spiritual, or emotional matter. He actually did this on the morning of his death, out of the blue.

I don't feel Guilty about this, I just try and learn from it. He, I hope, is moving upwards.

I know that all of this is intimately connected with my search for the Guru. All these karmas can be very strong reasons for rebirth so they do so often move us.

praNAma

mana

Eastern Mind
21 February 2012, 08:46 AM
Namaste EM,

Sorry to hear about the loss of your Aunt.

You can read Bhagwad Gita / Kathopanishad for her at least one day taking out from your busy schedule, if you can.

May God grant her the freedom from the clutches of the deaths and births.

OM

Vannakkam devotee: Although I appreciate the sentiment, there is no sorrow to be had, I'm afraid. She was 95. My initial response was, "Finally!" She's been putting it off for so long now. Her passing is a very good thing. Out of a body and off on a new adventure!

Aum Namasivaya

Believer
21 February 2012, 12:36 PM
Namaste,

Only a dedicated Hindu like yourself can put into practice what we keep talking about so often - detachment, and a celebration of the soul leaving the old/decrepit body for new adventures.

Pranam.

Eastern Mind
21 February 2012, 12:45 PM
Namaste,

Only a dedicated Hindu like yourself can put into practice what we keep talking about so often - detachment, and a celebration of the soul leaving the old/decrepit body for new adventures.

Pranam.

Vannakkam: Depends on the item, or thought. Take HDF, for instance. If I could just tear myself away from this thing for a week, now that would be something. Sometimes its difficult to know what you're attached to. The mind is a trickster, quite capable of fooling itself ... you can attach yourself to being detached, for example.

Aum Namasivaya

satay
21 February 2012, 12:51 PM
namaste Eastern,
Sorry for your loss.


Although I appreciate the sentiment, there is no sorrow to be had, I'm afraid. She was 95.

Aum Namasivaya

Yet there would be emptiness as the relationship is lost...

Mana
21 February 2012, 01:00 PM
Vannakkam: Depends on the item, or thought. Take HDF, for instance. If I could just tear myself away from this thing for a week, now that would be something. Sometimes its difficult to know what you're attached to. The mind is a trickster, quite capable of fooling itself ... you can attach yourself to being detached, for example.

Aum Namasivaya

Namaste,

:) Wonderful :)

Thank you EM, a big smile from over here!

Very wise words!

praNAma

mana

Eastern Mind
21 February 2012, 01:03 PM
namaste Eastern,
Sorry for your loss.

Yet there would be emptiness as the relationship is lost...

Vannakkam: There is no loss, only gain. One more block (lifetime) in the building blocks of the road to moksha. You should all feel happy for me, and for her, the embodies soul now out there looking for a new body, although she won't know that .... yet. :) :)

Sivaratri, and death ... This is the second time, at least ... my wife's aunt also passed on Sivaratri a few years back. What a great auspicious time to go! Another few years, hopefully 20 or more and maybe it will be this soul's turn. Maybe the next body won't have arthritis.

Yet my sister will indeed grieve, for she is yet unable to see the big picture. I'll go there and tell her a few jokes in a few weeks. Spread some cheer.

Aum Namasivaya

Eastern Mind
21 February 2012, 01:36 PM
Vannakkam: Detachment is just so empowering. Take winning and losing, for example. In athletics, (think cricket, Indians, think hockey, Canadians) in arguments (here on HDF, or elsewhere) in purchasing, in lifestyle, traveling, eating, all the mundane stuff of life, in friendships, relationships, and so much more. Detachment equals joy. The Dalai Lama says that in competition, the only winners are the losers.

Athlete's lives have been threatened by fans because they didn't play well. Can you imagine?

Here on HDF people have left in anger because they lost an argument? If they would have been detached to the results of the 'argument' they'd still be around. :)

More thoughts.

So what is the root cause of attachment?

Aum Namasivaya

JaiMaaDurga
21 February 2012, 02:52 PM
Namaste,

What is the root cause of attachment?



Fear.


JAI MATA DI

NayaSurya
21 February 2012, 03:07 PM
E.M. I am very glad you said these things above. So many gave condolences and I was trying to joke with you. I was feeling happy about your situation as I know what the existence of a 95 year old Portion is like...and it's profoundly harsh for many.

This ongoing topic, detachment:

It depends wether it is healthy attachment such as the type with Loved Ones. Or the sort such as an attachment to a forum or a behaviour. This sort of attachment could be called addiction in certain circles.

These vessels are very interesting. Some, due to our own lessons of karma will be more apt to have problems such as complusive addictions. Even in family liniages there will be many whom become addicted. Such as my own family.

For those sad few, it was only a matter of time. If they drank, it would happen. So for me the solution was so simple...never use.

I must have been ready this time to do so. Or I would not be here talking to you.:p

Ultimately, when we are ready...we move on. Until we are...we drift in and out...or become very deeply involved...again depending upon the Portion and what is slotted for them to achieve within this life time.

Often, at the heart of unhealthy attachment, is a deeply longing...desire.

One who becomes unhealthily attached to the forum has some deep desire to prove himself? To change others....to convince themself of things still uncertain within themself? Desire to control others? Desire to be heard...to feel in control. To make others hurt, as they are hurting.

I am not sure Joy comes from the act of detachment any more than it can be found within unhealthy attachment.

Ultimate Joy to me, is found inside the Truth.

So she died...and He died...as I held his hand...awesome.

The joy isn't in detaching from that Precious Being. It's from knowing who they are! Knowing they are fine...knowing they can now see you...now know everything!

It's from truly knowing, no matter what foul filthy insufferable acts happen to us within this realm...we can not be harmed.

This ultimate Truth is where Joy dwells!

So you can hold her hand...and sing her a song...and Love with all your heart...every single sunlit day of your life times...

And...perhaps become very attached to each and every One. Love with every particle of your Being...and more.

For the secret lies within the Truth of Our Origin.

With this known, it is far easier to let go.

Beloved, I could die tomorrow...or even this moment right now.

and my hand to Beloved God I tell you...aside from poor timing....

It would be a gift.

I have just let it all go you see. Every day, a gift of time to spend with these precious Portions I deeply Love.

and every day with you all...Beloved...is just as much a Gift.

Seeker123
21 February 2012, 03:34 PM
Vannakkam: Detachment is just so empowering. Take winning and losing, for example. In athletics, (think cricket, Indians, think hockey, Canadians) in arguments (here on HDF, or elsewhere) in purchasing, in lifestyle, traveling, eating, all the mundane stuff of life, in friendships, relationships, and so much more. Detachment equals joy. The Dalai Lama says that in competition, the only winners are the losers.

Athlete's lives have been threatened by fans because they didn't play well. Can you imagine?

Here on HDF people have left in anger because they lost an argument? If they would have been detached to the results of the 'argument' they'd still be around. :)

More thoughts.

So what is the root cause of attachment?

Aum Namasivaya

Detachment is great. Such a mind that is neither too happy nor too sad on success or failure can attain Moksha when exposed to knowledge. But it is important to understand that detachment does not translate to "giving up". If you are a house holder and are performing duties and you have come across losses it is good to view it with a detached mind and then continue on with duties without giving them up.

Believer
21 February 2012, 04:10 PM
Namaste,


... you can attach yourself to being detached,......
Excellent!

That was one of the things I was trying to convey some time back in the following post, but failed because of poor/improper choice of words on my part.
http://hindudharmaforums.com/showthread.php?t=7909

Pranam.

yajvan
21 February 2012, 05:28 PM
hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

namasté



So what is the root cause of attachment?


As I see it...
paśu¹ is a teathered animal - as ~human~ one is teathered to the senses or attached; Being pati then one is 'lord and master' over the senses, and has the ability to be unattached.

Being unattached one is absorbed in the Self, one's own Being. Then there is Self and non-Self as a personal experience. This is the notion of non-attachment from a personal level. This is not the final resting place, as there is more to unfold in one's development.

Yet the answer or root cause of attachment is the ignorance of one's own essential Being.

praṇām

words
paśu in its indeclinable form means see, behold.

Friend from the West
21 February 2012, 05:43 PM
Hari OM

Namaste to everyone,

Thanks Eastern Mind for thread. Wish your Aunt a grand new and continuing journey.

In previous thread not so long ago, detachment was discussed in different way and this thread seems to bring such a vibrant attitude to this. I tried to respond on that thread and did so poorly and probably do so here as well. In reading scripture, I have not seen detachment being a cold thing necessarily, but in losing close ones, more described like dear Naya brings to life,
"The joy isn't in detaching from that Precious Being. It's from knowing Who they are! Knowing they are fine...
It's from truly knowing, no matter what foul filthy insufferable acts happen to us within this realm...we can not be harmed."
It seems as many of who we read about had brief moments of sadness and even tears, until Naya's realization came back to rememberance to them.

Think we are given so much on this path from the great, dealing with those no longer beside us, to the equally great, our daily life. This thread is huge gift tonight. My mom is doing great battle once again (perhaps motivated by what JaiMaaDurga describes) and does not seem to be doing so well with this most recent battle.

For those who say Sanatana Dharma is a selfish path, know that I am at peace because of my understanding, which is a gift, but also because of blessings to this point to my little immature self, veils pulled away more frequently, and able to share more real love with my mom at this time. To go on with detachment, also son and dear wife, understanding of time taken away from them with this.

In application, think detachment, is not so cold but can help bring peace and love and understanding to many.

I add nothing really to thread but really want to say thanks to the VOP (40 years more of posting I think) and each of you who contributed.

Om Shanti

FFTW

Eastern Mind
21 February 2012, 06:24 PM
Namaste,

What is the root cause of attachment?

Fear.

JAI MATA DI

Vannakkam: You took the words out of my mouth. :)

Talked to my sister again today. Turns out Aunt V was 97, not 95 as otherwise stated. Would have been 98 March 1.

Aum Namasivaya

yajvan
21 February 2012, 07:50 PM
hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

namasté



JaiMaaDurga http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showthread.php?p=79214#post79214)
Namaste,

What is the root cause of attachment?
Fear.



Vannakkam: You took the words out of my mouth.

With your kind permission , let me extend the idea just a bit more.

Attachment is caused by fear , but what then causes fear ? This has been asked before we arrived on this good earth. The answer is found in the bṛhadaraṇyaka upaniṣad¹ ; it says, dvitiyad vai bhayam bhavati . Any time there is a sense of 2, fear arises i.e. dvitiyad vai bhayam bhavati - Fear is born of duality.


That is, when I sense there is more then 'me' there is the possiblity of '2' and with that two or more, then there is the notion that fear can arise. Yet if there is only 'me', the universe as an extention of my Self, who then is there to fear when everything is just 'me' ?

praṇām

words

Bṛhadaraṇyaka upaniṣad - puruṣavidha-brāhmaṇa, 2nd śloka.
dvitiyad or dvitīya द्वितीय - 2nd or two , couple,
bhayam or bhaya भय - fear , alarm dread apprehension
( rooted in bhī to fear for , be anxious about )
vai an emphasis and affirmation , generally placed after a word and laying stress on it (it is usually translatable by 'indeed' , 'truly' , 'certainly' )
bhavati or bhava भव arising or produced from , being in

Jainarayan
22 February 2012, 08:47 AM
Namaste.


In previous thread not so long ago, detachment was discussed in different way

Yes it was, indeed. I remember it. I remember saying I have little in the way of attachment in this world, except what I believe has been "assigned" to me as my dharma. That is, but for one human being and several non-human beings, I have nothing to be attached to. And that attachment is to care for them. I would never not perform those duties. The "joke" if you will, is that just when I think my work is done, along comes another being that needs what I can offer. I'll never get out of here!!! ARRRRRGGGGHHH!!! :banghead: :Roll:

But I try to think of Lord Krishna's words about having a right to perform our duties, but we have no right to claim their outcome as our own. I like to believe I do what I do with no selfish motives. To that end I consider it detachment, and I strive for it. When I've lost furry friends (rescues that became pets), I grieved and I cried, though not for me, but for them because they suffered. That tells me I'm not as detached as I think I am. :dunno:

JaiMaaDurga
22 February 2012, 08:20 PM
Many interesting thoughts.

Yajvan has once again prodded consideration yet further... for upon reading his reply, I could not help but have an imaginary conversation with a western friend who means well, but who does not quite "get it".

He would say, "But, it is the idea of utter solitude, of being truly 'alone in the universe', of coming from nothing and going to nothing, that is the great fear of man!"

I would reply, "You still do not understand- for in the very statement 'alone in the universe' there is duality- self and universe. Embodiment, this taking birth, this experienced boundary of spacetime; the predilection is strong! Consider the case of an infant who is frightened, startled by the sight of their own hand or foot waving in front of their face. They are too young to know their hand or foot as an extension of self; at that moment it is merely strange. How early, how firmly set a binary perception of existence is!"

I would add: "Consider one who is asleep, and dreaming; and, while in the midst of the typically unpredictable and haphazard sequence of events which constitute dreams, suddenly realizes: 'I am dreaming; were I to declare myself 100 feet tall, ageless,and made of butterfly wings, it would be so!' In the context of a dreamer fully aware of their state of dreaming, there is no fear, for all is self."

Perhaps this reply is a sort of matryoshka (Russian nesting doll) of idle thoughts, but considering my love for Maa, probably not too surprising.

My thanks to all for their forbearance and stimulating words:)

JAI MATA DI

Friend from the West
29 February 2012, 08:58 PM
Hari OM

Namaste to all,

In this thread, a couple of questions are raised by respected poster regarding the missing of the relationship and about the "missing." Also, TTBY, " I grieved and I cried, though not for me, but for them because they suffered. That tells me I'm not as detached as I think I am. :dunno:

I think this thread covers a subject that is wide in scope and where semantics when dealing with relative minutai comes into play. In regard to missing, do not think answered. Think detachment as is used for us, does not preclude missing most dearly. As in related thread, do not see goal of Sanatana Dharma to make us a rock. Even with Re-Relealization, the missing of a very close Portion, is not precluded. The mitigation of this hurt is the Understanding, but to make not exist altogether, do not see so much support for it. To me at this moment, think this mitigation offered, this blessing, is huge boon.

My friend, TTBY, most respectfully, my little opinion is think what you share here is no indication of your degree of non-attachment. In this case, Who suffers? This causes me tears as well.

In cases with very close portions, with the moving on, I most likely will unashamedly cry and miss as well, and hold on dearly with the Divine mitigation that is offered to each of us.

Om Shanti

FFTW

NayaSurya
01 March 2012, 12:10 PM
You bring up a very good point about compassion. It is in such short supply within this realm.

I think it can not be a detraction from our goal.

Several days ago a child...was made to run for hours in her back yard for eating a small candy bar given to her on the school bus.

Her picture, was my own daughter....and this child died begging to stop running. She told them this so many times.

This child was tortured so profoundly I could not breathe...I literally came up from my japa and began to cry.

http://www.latimes.com/news/nation/nationnow/la-na-nn-girl-dies-while-being-punished-for-chocolate-20120223,0,4707283.story

822


The only thing I could think of was that this beautiful child was out of this realm and free of the torture. For this I was glad. But the method of removal was hideous. No matter what this one had done to promote such an outcome, this heart finds the method too much to bear.


Now, I can not tell you my level of attachment in this realm. But I can tell you I can not and will not switch off this heart. Every child, every single One...is in there.
If it detracts from our final destination to be so overcome with compassion...then I concede to that fate.

sm78
01 March 2012, 12:37 PM
If it detracts from our final destination to be so overcome with compassion...then I concede to that fate.

If cost of this 'final destination' is the precious compassion then we better remain detracted forever - such a destination is basically a worthless goal only suitable for insensitive people with no feelings, other than to constantly think about their own sorry selves. No human goal can be at the cost of humanity itself - let the apes follow it or the jehadis, or the medieval religious zealots who had no better things to do.

Mana
01 March 2012, 01:03 PM
Namaste All,

NayaSurya what a sad story, how poisoned the dharma must be to create such madness!

sm78, I hold on to the thought that the ultimate goal is universal love; love strong enough to tame even the most cold blooded of reptiles.

How does one tame a reptile?

praNAma

mana

Eastern Mind
01 March 2012, 01:59 PM
Vannakkam: Personally, I feel its quite possible to practice detached compassion. My guru termed it affectionate detachment. This is in direct contradiction to some kind of cold, "I don't care" selfish attitude.

Aum Namasivaya

sm78
02 March 2012, 12:10 AM
sm78, I hold on to the thought that the ultimate goal is universal love; love strong enough to tame even the most cold blooded of reptiles.

How does one tame a reptile?



Why should taming the reptile be the objective of the love? With 100% universal love showered on the reptile, it might and should bite back if it so desires, what's the problem with that?

I won't try taming reptiles, I like them as cold blooded wild predators.

JaiMaaDurga
02 March 2012, 03:01 AM
Namaste,

I am of the opinion that the very word "detachment" carries a somewhat negative connotation for many Western native English-speakers, which leads to significant potential for misunderstanding... it contains associations of coldness, numbness, clinical indifference- but, of course in the context of SD, it is never intended to imply that we should all become like machines.

Indeed, it is always tragic when one's path is such, that the perceived need for self-preservation becomes so great, that a maxim is deeply internalized: "any truth regarding one's emotional state must never be known by others, for it will be used against you!" The human intellect, being that ultimate tool in the hand of the will, then seizes upon "The easiest secret to keep, is one you do not know"... and thus, the fortress and prison are one and the same.

A bit poetic, dramatic, perhaps- yet I would venture to say each of us has at least known in passing someone very much like this; and it is this flavor of unfortunate happenstance which I believe lingers in the minds of many, upon hearing the word "detachment".

Yet there is no single English word which is an adequate substitute... in talks or books for English-speakers, there is not infrequently an added clarification along the lines of, "perhaps better to think of it as non-attachment" etc.

As for the true definition of "compassion"? Far wiser than I have addressed this many times, in many ways; all I will say is, "I bow to Her!" ;)

JAI MATA DI

NayaSurya
02 March 2012, 05:41 AM
A very wise point you bring up. It could be in the word itself.

Maybe, the problem isn't with our understanding of the word. It's in the word itself. It means several things and most of them imply people should be removed from your concern.

Webster actually uses the word "Aloof"

Here's the issue.

When our goal is to remove ourself from the "drama"...no longer concern ourself in worldly desires. I do not think this a concrete situation.

For one without obligations here, it could mean complete removal from this drama. They are free to move away from all relationships and live as a hermit in a cave.

But, the practical application of this withdrawl from the drama, in the life of a householder, does not imply you would not cry when your child dies....or you become aloof from them and not be very concerned with their struggles.

You know how I think such a state would be to a householder? It would begin right here in this forum. When you no longer involve yourself in a wretched fight here...when you allow the universe to correct a Portion here which thinks you are crazy, or stupid...when someone pokes you and you inside know in your heart, that one poking you is none other than Beloved...in one of His Sundry Incarnations.

If you were truly aware of our status...how much that would change how we care for everyone around us? The further you become seated within that Truth...the more you would care...not abandon, friends and family.

Do everything in your power to make sure your job as a parent, wife, friend was not lacking in anyway whatsoever. As householders, we have been given Beings placed directly in our circle of action. Ones which we should tend to with the utmost care, with every thing we have.

I think the problem is, others may see that word used "detachment" and others saying it is a way to the final goal.

and immediately withdrawl from their children, family....spouse...and immediate friends.

Use it as an excuse to become aloof.

Which is not what I feel you all have indicated about this state of "withdrawing".

Householders have obligations and deep ties to this realm. So we have to find creative ways to begin this process without being a bad parent, spouse or friend.

Some of those ways would be to not seek extra attachment to desires here. To not engage in the circles of drama going on around us.(such as the forum/work/community arguments and disputes).

Sometimes, being a parent will thrust you directly into one of those mini dramas. But, I feel those times are very much part of our lessons.

We would not be here as a householder, if we did not have direct lessons to learn from that state of existence.

Mana
02 March 2012, 11:33 AM
Why should taming the reptile be the objective of the love? With 100% universal love showered on the reptile, it might and should bite back if it so desires, what's the problem with that?

I won't try taming reptiles, I like them as cold blooded wild predators.

Namaste,

sm78, I don't think it is an objective either, its just what happens; tamed is not the right word, charmed befit more eloquently.
You are quite right that they are wondrous as they are. I should not however; desire to be reborn as one.

JaiMaaDurga, it is a very valid and excelent point that you bring up, in regards to language, our whole perspective can be coloured by this; the same is true of the English word "love" it is so very limited in its description of something so very vast, taking so many different forms. Our understanding of detachment is also rooted in this flaw of our language, to my mind, this does not mean to stop loving and to show no emotion.

Surely we should not be driven by those emotions; not to act or over act upon karma being key, to chose to act; the difference being in knowing, in realising.


praNAma

mana

Amala
16 April 2012, 05:30 PM
Namaste,

English is a language ill-equipped to talk about spiritual concepts. In my Sanskrit studies, the entire margin can be filled with the definition of a single term. LOL One translation read "Let there be salutations." How stupid does that sound? But how to say it, truly, in English? It seems one would have to be a poet, using many metaphors and drawing analogies and such to truly bring across the meanings.

That being said, as you mention, JaiMāDurga, there is no other single word to hang on it. ...and yet it is far from withdrawing from life, as it is seen the the field of psychology. My experience of detachment is beautiful. It removes blocks from what I feel is a higher, broader and much deeper, fuller experience of life. ...and even those words are inadequate.

Sometimes writing on this in English leaves me feeling like a dog chasing her tail. lol




Namaste,

Yet there is no single English word which is an adequate substitute... in talks or books for English-speakers, there is not infrequently an added clarification along the lines of, "perhaps better to think of it as non-attachment" etc.

As for the true definition of "compassion"? Far wiser than I have addressed this many times, in many ways; all I will say is, "I bow to Her!" ;)

JAI MATA DI

Purana
30 April 2012, 11:01 PM
Detachment is one interesting emotion. Knowing religion, I understand the basic fundamental wheels of karma, or reincarnation. I know that I will meet my loved ones again in the other life so often I would simply smile and pray they have a good 'journey'. The only attachment that I am unable to break or even think about losing is my little girl. I love her very much and even if she isn't by my side (except the time when I am working and she is schooling), I would feel fidgety like thousands of worms wriggling in me.

Mana
01 May 2012, 12:50 AM
Namaste All,

Here are a few ides for consideration.

Amala, I think you do a great job of expressing your self in English, I think I know what you mean! Sanskrit, I am slowly learning, is a fantastic language; as it obligates the understanding of concepts which are themselves imbued within the words as thy have evolved, I find that English is a shell in comparison. We can speak of love all day long in English, with out ever getting to the crux of what is entailed; Us Anglophones love to suffer in love; feeling it to be a necessary part of loving.
A common precept, for example, that an artist must suffer for their work for it to be of value ...

Detachment is a tricky concept; here is how I have come to see it, we must to our best be as independent as we can, this does not mean to ignore and remove an others presence from our lives; nor does it mean that we should leave all material things behind, but that they should not shape us. They should not become extensions of our selves as we project our love onto them. But we should not depend to heavily on anything, so as to have greater ease should we need to adapt to change, change which is always rather frequent in this beautifully dynamic world.

Motherly love is a difficult thing to measure, I find that women are often more severe in the severance of these bonds, as you must need to be when provoking/accepting flight from the nest after so much devotion.

This relationship is critical in the forming of a child's future ...

I have seen women smother their children with love, to hide the fear and angst that they them selves have inside, this is an unfortunate projection. Creating a much thicker illusion from which the child must emerge.

love is both the key and the lock. Balance in these doings are that which shapes our lives and eventually society its self.

Attachment to material goals are very much the way of the West, but are they really that; material?
It appears to me that the desires harboured by many are for objects of status, and are in fact, the many arms of the ego reaching out to shape us, rather like an ivy upon a tree; tools with which we dance for love, but usually love of the self in self affirmation!

If our material possessions are not related to our status and thus the competition that this entails, we will not waver if any misdeed becomes them. We are detached from them.

Now the tricky part might be realising that all these energies, are directly related to our perception of self, thus as such, our very thought process can be driven by this. With it, the feelings it creates within the biological engine that drives us; or should we so desire; we drive.

Purana, the wiggly feeling in your stomach, this is a perfectly normal reaction and is that which drives you to instinctively protect your child. Don't worry about that, if however you still have that feeling when your infant is 20 there may be a problem ...


praNAma

mana

PatrickMB
14 June 2012, 09:38 AM
Many interesting thoughts.

Yajvan has once again prodded consideration yet further... for upon reading his reply, I could not help but have an imaginary conversation with a western friend who means well, but who does not quite "get it".

He would say, "But, it is the idea of utter solitude, of being truly 'alone in the universe', of coming from nothing and going to nothing, that is the great fear of man!"

I would reply, "You still do not understand- for in the very statement 'alone in the universe' there is duality- self and universe. Embodiment, this taking birth, this experienced boundary of spacetime; the predilection is strong! Consider the case of an infant who is frightened, startled by the sight of their own hand or foot waving in front of their face. They are too young to know their hand or foot as an extension of self; at that moment it is merely strange. How early, how firmly set a binary perception of existence is!"

I would add: "Consider one who is asleep, and dreaming; and, while in the midst of the typically unpredictable and haphazard sequence of events which constitute dreams, suddenly realizes: 'I am dreaming; were I to declare myself 100 feet tall, ageless,and made of butterfly wings, it would be so!' In the context of a dreamer fully aware of their state of dreaming, there is no fear, for all is self."

Perhaps this reply is a sort of matryoshka (Russian nesting doll) of idle thoughts, but considering my love for Maa, probably not too surprising.

My thanks to all for their forbearance and stimulating words:)

JAI MATA DI

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@JaiMaaDurga: This is completely off topic, but I truly love the marvelous image of the Divine Mother on your posts. Thank you.