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Kismet
22 February 2012, 09:47 AM
This is from Bhaktivinod Thakur's essay "Non-sectarian Vaishnava Dharma"

As I am curious to my sva-dharma or psycho-mental constitution, I am wondering what this may imply for me in tandem with my Durga worship.

"The constitutional activities of a pure soul are called sva-dharma, or ones prescribed activities. The sva-dharma of a living entity is prominently manifested in his pure state of existence. In one s pure state of existence this sva-dharma is present in the form of spiritual activities. All the above-mentioned material tendencies become succesful when dovetailed with spiritulal activities, otherwise they cannot independently help one attain the highest goal. From engagement in material activities up to the awakening of spiritual activities is called the preliminary stage of God consciousness. From this preliminary stage up to the uttama-adhikari stage there are innumerable levels. Inquiring about truth of the material world is called Sakta-dharma, because the predominating deity of the material world is goddess Durga.

All behavior and practice instructed in Sakta-dharma is helpful only in the preliminary stage. Such behavior and practice is meant to bring one closer to spiritual life, and materialistic people may be attracted by this only until they begin to inquire about the Supreme Absolute Truth. Sakta-dharma is the living entities initial spiritual endeavor, and it is extremely essential for people of that level. When the preliminary stage is further strengthened, one attains the next level. One then considers the energy of work and the superiority of heat over dull matter, and one therefore accepts the sun-god, who is the source of heat, as one's worshipable deity. At that time, Saura-dharma is awakened. Later, when one considers even heat as dull matter and animal consciousness as superior, one attains the third stage, Ganapatya-dharma. In the fourth gross stage, Lord Siva is worshiped as the pure consciousness of the living entities, and Saiva-dharma manifests. In the fifth stage, the consciousness of the living entity worships the supreme consciousness, and thus Vaisnava-dharma is manifest. By nature, there are five types of paramarthic dharmas, or spiritual duties, which have been known throughout the world by different names at different times. If one considers all the different dharmas that are current in India and abroad, one can see that they certainly fall within these five categories."

Eastern Mind
22 February 2012, 12:41 PM
This is from Bhaktivinod Thakur's essay "Non-sectarian Vaishnava Dharma"

As I am curious to my sva-dharma or psycho-mental constitution, I am wondering what this may imply for me in tandem with my Durga worship.

"The constitutional activities of a pure soul are called sva-dharma, or ones prescribed activities. The sva-dharma of a living entity is prominently manifested in his pure state of existence. In one s pure state of existence this sva-dharma is present in the form of spiritual activities. All the above-mentioned material tendencies become succesful when dovetailed with spiritulal activities, otherwise they cannot independently help one attain the highest goal. From engagement in material activities up to the awakening of spiritual activities is called the preliminary stage of God consciousness. From this preliminary stage up to the uttama-adhikari stage there are innumerable levels. Inquiring about truth of the material world is called Sakta-dharma, because the predominating deity of the material world is goddess Durga.

All behavior and practice instructed in Sakta-dharma is helpful only in the preliminary stage. Such behavior and practice is meant to bring one closer to spiritual life, and materialistic people may be attracted by this only until they begin to inquire about the Supreme Absolute Truth. Sakta-dharma is the living entities initial spiritual endeavor, and it is extremely essential for people of that level. When the preliminary stage is further strengthened, one attains the next level. One then considers the energy of work and the superiority of heat over dull matter, and one therefore accepts the sun-god, who is the source of heat, as one's worshipable deity. At that time, Saura-dharma is awakened. Later, when one considers even heat as dull matter and animal consciousness as superior, one attains the third stage, Ganapatya-dharma. In the fourth gross stage, Lord Siva is worshiped as the pure consciousness of the living entities, and Saiva-dharma manifests. In the fifth stage, the consciousness of the living entity worships the supreme consciousness, and thus Vaisnava-dharma is manifest. By nature, there are five types of paramarthic dharmas, or spiritual duties, which have been known throughout the world by different names at different times. If one considers all the different dharmas that are current in India and abroad, one can see that they certainly fall within these five categories."

Vannakkam Kismet: Makes no sense to me, but I'm not a Vaishnava.

Aum Namasivaya

MahaHrada
22 February 2012, 01:29 PM
As I am curious to my sva-dharma or psycho-mental constitution, I am wondering what this may imply for me in tandem with my Durga worship.

"The constitutional activities of a pure soul are called sva-dharma, or ones prescribed activities. The sva-dharma of a living entity is prominently manifested in his pure state of existence. In one s pure state of existence this sva-dharma is present in the form of spiritual activities. All the above-mentioned material tendencies become succesful when dovetailed with spiritulal activities, otherwise they cannot independently help one attain the highest goal. From engagement in material activities up to the awakening of spiritual activities is called the preliminary stage of God consciousness. From this preliminary stage up to the uttama-adhikari stage there are innumerable levels. Inquiring about truth of the material world is called Sakta-dharma, because the predominating deity of the material world is goddess Durga.

All behavior and practice instructed in Sakta-dharma is helpful only in the preliminary stage. Such behavior and practice is meant to bring one closer to spiritual life, and materialistic people may be attracted by this only until they begin to inquire about the Supreme Absolute Truth. Sakta-dharma is the living entities initial spiritual endeavor, and it is extremely essential for people of that level. When the preliminary stage is further strengthened, one attains the next level. One then considers the energy of work and the superiority of heat over dull matter, and one therefore accepts the sun-god, who is the source of heat, as one's worshipable deity. At that time, Saura-dharma is awakened. Later, when one considers even heat as dull matter and animal consciousness as superior, one attains the third stage, Ganapatya-dharma. In the fourth gross stage, Lord Siva is worshiped as the pure consciousness of the living entities, and Saiva-dharma manifests. In the fifth stage, the consciousness of the living entity worships the supreme consciousness, and thus Vaisnava-dharma is manifest. By nature, there are five types of paramarthic dharmas, or spiritual duties, which have been known throughout the world by different names at different times. If one considers all the different dharmas that are current in India and abroad, one can see that they certainly fall within these five categories."

Shaktas are strictly advaitan, demands are very high, this path is definitly more challenging and complicated than krishna bhakti, you are prone to make mistakes easier, you are best served with a bhakti path that can be followed without Guru upadesha and is more forgiving. But that has been now told to you several times, from several people, repeating it will not be too much useful. Krishna bhakti is an easy path, shakta path is demanding and few people are ready for it. Please do not belive that this is the easiest path, it is most hard, if your reason to begin shakti bhakti because you have a bad opinion about yourself and want to start with the lowest path i think this will be a most unfortunate decision.

Kismet
22 February 2012, 03:45 PM
Shaktas are strictly advaitan, demands are very high, this path is definitly more challenging and complicated than krishna bhakti, you are prone to make mistakes easier, you are best served with a bhakti path that can be followed without Guru upadesha and is more forgiving. But that has been now told to you several times, from several people, repeating it will not be too much useful. Krishna bhakti is an easy path, shakta path is demanding and few people are ready for it. Please do not belive that this is the easiest path, it is most hard, if your reason to begin shakti bhakti because you have a bad opinion about yourself and want to start with the lowest path i think this will be a most unfortunate decision.

This is interesting to me. I have always thought that the Mother aspect of the divine is the most benevolent and compassionate side of God. While it is the Father who is most strict and demanding. What you are saying seems to flip these positions.

In any case, you have given me a lot to chew on, thank you MahaHrada. I will pray for God and Goddess's Mercy.

PS, I would not say it is the "lowest" path. I would say it is the path most suited to one's psycho-physical nature in progression towards universal truth. Isn't everyone at some level different? I can't believe exceptions can't possibly be warranted.

MahaHrada
22 February 2012, 06:19 PM
This is interesting to me. I have always thought that the Mother aspect of the divine is the most benevolent and compassionate side of God. While it is the Father who is most strict and demanding. What you are saying seems to flip these positions.

In any case, you have given me a lot to chew on, thank you MahaHrada. I will pray for God and Goddess's Mercy.



One cannot say that, it is rather the opposite there is a famous quote from the tantras Shiva is a corpse (shava) without Shakti. That is all the activity all the power is Shakti, Shiva is the peaceful witness of this activity, it also means that Shiva is never without Shakti or Shakti without Shiva. So there is no difference between Shiva and Shakti, the actor and the activity. One reason why the text you cite makes not much sense from the viewpoint of a Shaiva or Shakta only from that of a Vaishnava.

Many important avatara of shakti like Durga, Mahatripurasundari, Bagalmukhi or Kali have appeared as warrior for the sole reason of destroying mighty asuras that the devas were not able to defeat because they lacked the power. Durga received her weapons from all of the devata that means she is the combined power (shakti) of all devas, all these male devas for a shakta are non different from the absolute Shiva. For a shaiva or a shakta, shiva is the absolute like the brahman for a vedantin. so the rules of lower and higher path as they are cited by your text do not make sense for a shaiva or shakta.
Since the activity, dynamism and power is the domain of shakti, she is the warrior against evil that can protect her devotees.

Bhaktas emphasize her benevolent motherly aspect mainly because it can be dangerous to focus on her nature unprepared, not because this aspect is her main role. To approach her you need to be a "vira" a hero and have a non-dual approach since you embrace the whole universe including the dissolution and destruction and only with a non dual approach this is safe and for the benefit of all.


PS, I would not say it is the "lowest" path. I would say it is the path most suited to one's psycho-physical nature in progression towards universal truth. Isn't everyone at some level different? I can't believe exceptions can't possibly be warranted.

No not at all, it is unsuitable for most, shakti is power and her impact is strong, the energetic influence of some ugra devatas, fierce shaktis like kali, can be harmful for an average human beings weak, impure and unprepared subtle body thats why i insist always on Guru guidance and preparation, and thats why very few are suited for that path. It is not a preliminary to anything. If you think you are not evolved enough for Vaishnava path and you can be less evolved as a shakta it is the oppositte.

Shaktas would say that is because their path is the highest and it needs many lifetimes of following other paths before one can embark on that route.

When Bhaktivinod Thakur says that it is the lowest path for beginners it is not an advice for his readers to follow it and only later become vaishnavas, it is because he is a Vaishnava and wants people to stay away from the Devi. Iskcon founder Prabhupada even insults all other devas as being only demigods. Especially Vaishnavas are known to insist on the absolute superioritity of their path.

So clearly it is not meant as an advice to follow that path, quite the contrary and of course the reasons he gives, that shakti is only matter is completly baseless. Shakti is as well the energy of cid and ananda, ultimate bliss and highest conciousness, she is one with the absolute prakasha the light of conciousness, she is the self reflective aspect of this absolute conciousness, the vimarsha, the mirror.

Advaitans whether Vedantins, Shaivas or Shaktas generally are more tolerant since they accept the idea of one universal conciousness as the background of all, and do not cling that much to name and form.

Shaktas would say of course their path is the highest, as would Vedantins say of their path, or Shaivas of their, this is only natural, otherwise why should they follow it?

sm78
22 February 2012, 10:02 PM
This is from Bhaktivinod Thakur's essay "Non-sectarian Vaishnava Dharma"

As I am curious to my sva-dharma or psycho-mental constitution, I am wondering what this may imply for me in tandem with my Durga worship.

"The constitutional activities of a pure soul are called sva-dharma, or ones prescribed activities. The sva-dharma of a living entity is prominently manifested in his pure state of existence. In one s pure state of existence this sva-dharma is present in the form of spiritual activities. All the above-mentioned material tendencies become succesful when dovetailed with spiritulal activities, otherwise they cannot independently help one attain the highest goal. From engagement in material activities up to the awakening of spiritual activities is called the preliminary stage of God consciousness. From this preliminary stage up to the uttama-adhikari stage there are innumerable levels. Inquiring about truth of the material world is called Sakta-dharma, because the predominating deity of the material world is goddess Durga.

All behavior and practice instructed in Sakta-dharma is helpful only in the preliminary stage. Such behavior and practice is meant to bring one closer to spiritual life, and materialistic people may be attracted by this only until they begin to inquire about the Supreme Absolute Truth. Sakta-dharma is the living entities initial spiritual endeavor, and it is extremely essential for people of that level. When the preliminary stage is further strengthened, one attains the next level. One then considers the energy of work and the superiority of heat over dull matter, and one therefore accepts the sun-god, who is the source of heat, as one's worshipable deity. At that time, Saura-dharma is awakened. Later, when one considers even heat as dull matter and animal consciousness as superior, one attains the third stage, Ganapatya-dharma. In the fourth gross stage, Lord Siva is worshiped as the pure consciousness of the living entities, and Saiva-dharma manifests. In the fifth stage, the consciousness of the living entity worships the supreme consciousness, and thus Vaisnava-dharma is manifest. By nature, there are five types of paramarthic dharmas, or spiritual duties, which have been known throughout the world by different names at different times. If one considers all the different dharmas that are current in India and abroad, one can see that they certainly fall within these five categories."

Bhakti vinoda thakura was from Bengal and he just copied the popular bengal shakta viewpoint that Shakti worship is the culmination of worship of other deities (Ganesh, surya, vishnu/krishna & shiva). It is said that those who have already achieved success in the above devatas in their past lives after lot of toil get ready for shakti worship.

One has to just understand this was a rationalization used by shaktas of bengal to reconcile their often mistrusted form of worship with popular smarta viewpoint.

Bhakit Vinoda seems to be a cleaver man who picked this up and inter changed the order of the deities making shakti the start point and his brand of krishna bhakti the highest.

If you want to do shakti worship you better follow the shakta view point. If you want to follow vaishnava follow vaishnava viewpoint. I have no interest in vaishnavism and don't know one should trust bhakti vinoda thakura. I personally find only Sri Samprdaya a reliable, authentic and proper agamic vaishnava sampradaya in the present. If I had tried vaishnavism I would have joined tenkalai sri vaishnava sect. But that would be me.

You can ofcourse worship shakti from some vaishnava p.o.v but for that you better see up the madva sect who do worship to all sorts of deities including tribal & local serpent gurdians and yet follow strict dvaita - most strange thing to do philosophically, but since they have some mantra transmission it works for them. Gaudiya vaishnavas don't have any shakti mantra transmission and it would not work to worship shakti with Gaudiya guidance.

anirvan
23 February 2012, 01:11 AM
If one views the literal meaning of Shakta means worshipping mother goddess and Vaishnab means worshipping krishna,it will be naive and immature.The devotee who loves and worship Mata kali or mata durga in the form of dear mother and with raga-marga ,how can one tell him as shakta???

When Ramakrishna was worshipping maa kali initial part of his sadhna,it was purely raga-marga.it can"t be said as shakta. Again when during his 64 yogini sadhna,he was pure shakta.when he entered Nirvikalpa samadhi under guidance of Tatapuri,he was pure advitin-jnana marga.

When he became immersed in union with love of maa kali again,he was pure vaishnab.

So its the propaganda of some sectarian vaishnab that those who worship Male god,that too the avtars of Vishnu are only vaishnab is totally un-wise and irrational.

What I have studied and what i was taught by my Gurudev ,its rationally different definitions regarding vaishnaba and shakta.

Shakta--- means the stage of sadhaka.when one is in struggling stage,one has not conquered the 6 senses and prakriti,he is shakta. Shakta means in search of shakti,the power to conquer one"s own prakriti,senses and ascend to gain knowledge.This is equivalent to KUNDALINI UTHHAN.
So a shakta can be follower of Tantra or yoga or bhakti or jnana marga.
In contemporary sense ,shakta means upasan of SIVA OR MAA in the way described in tantrik texts.but again in present time,majority of worships in temples,even bhakti marga is followed as instructed by Tantra.Go to Jagannatha pur or Guruvayur,padmanabha or any where,everything is according to tantra.

Vishnaba- the state of pure bhakti.its not state when a beginner starting chanting name or doing kirtana. Its a state when the devotee is able to see his beloved sitting in the heart of all including him,has get rid of Maya/senses forever.The devotee is in the higher realm of consciousness where he is eligible to feel and love God as his own.We at a lower level of consciousness can"t able to love god as man can"t love god,but only becoming god,one can relate the loving relationship with god.

So in all practical sense,how can one reject one"s loving relationship with goddess mother or fatherly love with sadasiva??? They are as valid and equal devotion as one has with Rama or Krishna.

One must remember Siva is known as Maha-vaishnaba,where as when Lord Rama was doing Durga puja to gain shakti to kill Ravan,he was maha-shakta.
Even when you look at the KATYANI BRATA performed by Radharani and Gopis,to get their desired love towards Krishna,one will realize that without shakti,jnana and devotion is impossible.Thats why they call " without shakti,mukti is second to impossible" .same thing can be said to bhakti too.without shakti,bhakti is impossible.

devotee
23 February 2012, 03:45 AM
Namaste Kismet,


This is from Bhaktivinod Thakur's essay "Non-sectarian Vaishnava Dharma"

As I am curious to my sva-dharma or psycho-mental constitution, I am wondering what this may imply for me in tandem with my Durga worship.

"The constitutional activities of a pure soul are called sva-dharma, or ones prescribed activities. The sva-dharma of a living entity is prominently manifested in his pure state of existence. In one s pure state of existence this sva-dharma is present in the form of spiritual activities. All the above-mentioned material tendencies become succesful when dovetailed with spiritulal activities, otherwise they cannot independently help one attain the highest goal. From engagement in material activities up to the awakening of spiritual activities is called the preliminary stage of God consciousness. From this preliminary stage up to the uttama-adhikari stage there are innumerable levels. Inquiring about truth of the material world is called Sakta-dharma, because the predominating deity of the material world is goddess Durga.

All behavior and practice instructed in Sakta-dharma is helpful only in the preliminary stage. Such behavior and practice is meant to bring one closer to spiritual life, and materialistic people may be attracted by this only until they begin to inquire about the Supreme Absolute Truth. Sakta-dharma is the living entities initial spiritual endeavor, and it is extremely essential for people of that level. When the preliminary stage is further strengthened, one attains the next level. One then considers the energy of work and the superiority of heat over dull matter, and one therefore accepts the sun-god, who is the source of heat, as one's worshipable deity. At that time, Saura-dharma is awakened. Later, when one considers even heat as dull matter and animal consciousness as superior, one attains the third stage, Ganapatya-dharma. In the fourth gross stage, Lord Siva is worshiped as the pure consciousness of the living entities, and Saiva-dharma manifests. In the fifth stage, the consciousness of the living entity worships the supreme consciousness, and thus Vaisnava-dharma is manifest. By nature, there are five types of paramarthic dharmas, or spiritual duties, which have been known throughout the world by different names at different times. If one considers all the different dharmas that are current in India and abroad, one can see that they certainly fall within these five categories."

Now I understand your confusion which showed in another thread on Beej-mantra-japa of Maa KAli. Let me tell you my views :

a) You should not go to Sri Bhakti Vinod Thakur who is a Vaishnava for learning about ShAkTa path. What is the authority on which his these assertions are made ? There cannot be any acceptable authority ... as it is a comparison between various sects ... the only authority acceptable here can be Shruti & nothing less than this. Which Shruti says all what he wants to say ? None.

My dear friend, the Ultimate Reality can be reached by ANY valid Path. It is nothing but sheer ignorance to say what Sri Bhakti Vinod Thakur says in above quoted para. Let me tell you that most of the Hindus (Vaishnavas and the non-sectarian Hindus) are worshipers of Vishnu and they don't take advice from Sri Bhakti Vinod Thakur on what to do.

b)
This is interesting to me. I have always thought that the Mother aspect of the divine is the most benevolent and compassionate side of God. While it is the Father who is most strict and demanding. What you are saying seems to flip these positions.

It all depends on the Bhakta's perspective. What we are talking about here is the usual aspect of the form of Mother Goddess but it can change by intense devotion of the Bhakta as happened in case of Sri Ramkrishna and Mother Goddess KAli. But we can't compare ourselves to Sri Ramkrishna just like that. Are we as pure at heart as Sri Ramkrishna was ... he was as innocent as a child throughout his life.

If your natural inclination is towards Mother aspect of God, please go for it without any doubts and worries. Just take a plunge with full faith in the love of Maa ... you are sure to receive her love the way you want. ... But don't be afraid on the path and don't be perturbed by small hurdles coming your way ... slowly everything will be OK. However, while you choose to do that, please have faith in your devotion alone ... please don't mix-up your SAdhnA with some mantra/rituals of ShAkta path about which you have no complete knowledge.

OM

yajvan
23 February 2012, 11:39 AM
hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

namasté


My dear friend, the Ultimate Reality can be reached by ANY valid Path.

Wonderful...
A valid path is key for the conversation.

praṇām

Kismet
23 February 2012, 08:25 PM
Namaste, All...

I wish to thank you all for the information you have provided me. I realize now that I still have a great deal of soul-searching to do. I am right now undecided exactly *what* path I should choose. At first I instantly assumed I was a Vaishnava. Now I am much less sure... At the same time I want to be careful about how to approach other deities. I have decided not to practice certain mantras I am not fully knowledgeable about.

A great road is ahead of me, to cut it short is less than worth it. :)

Jainarayan
24 February 2012, 09:48 AM
Namaste.


I am right now undecided exactly *what* path I should choose. At first I instantly assumed I was a Vaishnava. Now I am much less sure... At the same time I want to be careful about how to approach other deities. I have decided not to practice certain mantras I am not fully knowledgeable about.

I feel your confusion, as I was in the same place. I thought I was Vaishnava, but I didn't know what it really was because I thought I understood all deities to be different and equal manifestations of God with Krishna as my Ishta-devata. Someone told me that is Smarta (to a degree). So I believed I was Smarta. But I have no affinity for Surya or Murugan, and it just didn't feel right.

Then I thought I needed to pray to all the deities and worship Them at my altar. But that didn't feel right either. I think Lord Krishna was having a good chuckle (you know He is the consumate prankster and practical joker), yet He was guiding me.

Finally, through reading things on the internet and learning and understanding, I came to understand Him as svayam bhagavān (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Svayam_Bhagavan), even though some would say that is a Gaudiya tradition. How can He not be (in my estimation) considering the image here?

I offer strotras to the other deities, and ask for Their help... especially Lord Hanuman for strength in physical activities and devotion; Maa Saraswati for help in my music; Lord Shiva and Maa Parvati as powerful helpers to be a better devotee of Lord Krishna. But this is my way, not necessarily anyone else's. This is the way that talks to my heart.

After all is said and done, and all my rambling... you will find the way. Or rather, it will find you. Don't force it, but open yourself and be a lightning rod.

reshmita
08 May 2012, 09:24 AM
Nice to read insightful thoughts from all of you. It's nice to think that people of this generation can think in this way. Thanks to all of you.

philosoraptor
01 June 2012, 03:22 PM
All behavior and practice instructed in Sakta-dharma is helpful only in the preliminary stage. Such behavior and practice is meant to bring one closer to spiritual life, and materialistic people may be attracted by this only until they begin to inquire about the Supreme Absolute Truth. Sakta-dharma is the living entities initial spiritual endeavor, and it is extremely essential for people of that level. When the preliminary stage is further strengthened, one attains the next level. One then considers the energy of work and the superiority of heat over dull matter, and one therefore accepts the sun-god, who is the source of heat, as one's worshipable deity. At that time, Saura-dharma is awakened. Later, when one considers even heat as dull matter and animal consciousness as superior, one attains the third stage, Ganapatya-dharma. In the fourth gross stage, Lord Siva is worshiped as the pure consciousness of the living entities, and Saiva-dharma manifests. In the fifth stage, the consciousness of the living entity worships the supreme consciousness, and thus Vaisnava-dharma is manifest. By nature, there are five types of paramarthic dharmas, or spiritual duties, which have been known throughout the world by different names at different times. If one considers all the different dharmas that are current in India and abroad, one can see that they certainly fall within these five categories."


I wonder if anyone else noticed that these five categories of worship are the same ones mentioned in the panchopasana doctrine of the Advaitins - Surya, Ganesha, Devi, Shiva, and then Vishnu. Except that while the Advaitins (if memory serves) do them simultaneously and/or say that all 5 are equally valid, Bhaktivinod appears to be arranging them in hierarchical order.

As far as where this specific hierarchy is stated in shruti, I am not aware of an explicit reference per se. However, it doesn't contradict anything I read in shruti to date. Aitareya Braahmana 1.1.1 also describes a hierarchy of devas with Agni being lowest and Vishnu being highest. The Kena Upanishad mentions Indra, Agni, and Vaayu as dependent entities on Brahman, who had to be instructed by Uma about the nature of Brahman. So, Brahman is clearly different from these devas. The Gita mentions that anya-devata worship is actually indirect worship of Krishna Himself, who is equated with Brahman in this text. It goes on to say that those desiring various benefits in this world worship anya-devatas, and they go the worlds of those anya-devatas. This is unlike those who worship Krishna who go to His abode and never return. In the Varaaha, Vishnu, and Bhaagavata Puraanas, devas like Brahma, Shiva, and Shakti are clearly above other devas like Indra, etc, but not are quite on the same level as Vishnu. So... the arrangement doesn't seem inconsistent with shAstra.

regards,

philosoraptor

Ganeshprasad
01 June 2012, 04:21 PM
Pranam




As far as where this specific hierarchy is stated in shruti, I am not aware of an explicit reference per se. ------

The Kena Upanishad mentions Indra, Agni, and Vaayu as dependent entities on Brahman, who had to be instructed by Uma about the nature of Brahman. So, Brahman is clearly different from these devas. -------

In the Varaaha, Vishnu, and Bhaagavata Puraanas, devas like Brahma, Shiva, and Shakti are clearly above other devas like Indra, etc, but not are quite on the same level as Vishnu. So... the arrangement doesn't seem inconsistent with shAstra.

regards,

philosoraptor

This debate of hierarchy has been debated here in this forum till one is blue in the face.

We may refer this matter to an expert (but again I fear that experts are themselves of many kinds, driven by their predilections.) Everyone starts from a base and then reconcile the apparent contradictions in shastra to suit.but off course if we were to accept this vakya from sruti we would see no contradictions.
46 They call him Indra, Mitra, Varuna, Agni, and heavenly nobly-winged Garutman.
To what is One, sages give many a title they call it Agni, Yama, Matarisvan.

47 -----

48 Twelve are the fellies, and the wheel is single; three are the naves. What man hath understood it?


Note: The wheel is single and the 12 spokes (fellies) are perceived as different aspects. To what is One, sages give many a title.


The point is very clearly explained in Brihadaraynaka: "What did Brahman know that it became all?"
Resolution of such debates is never possible. Ending of questions is never possible -- new doubts will be ever cropping up.
Those with hierarchy problem will never be able to resolve so call contradiction.(because egos will always persists).

Off course we can site some Puranas that extoll Vishnu and some Puranas that extol either Brahma or Shiva but we can also quote from Bhagvat Puran where Lord Shiva is extolled if you like i quote you it.

Jai Shree Krishna

philosoraptor
01 June 2012, 05:55 PM
Is Ganeshprasad suggesting that the shrutis are an inconsistent hodgepodge of contradictory ideas?

If not, then I would assume we would want to understand the shruti in a consistent way.



"They call him Indra, Mitra, Varuna, Agni, and heavenly nobly-winged Garutman.
To what is One, sages give many a title they call it Agni, Yama, Matarisvan."

So this means that Brahman can also be referred as Indra, Mitra, Varuna, Agni, etc.

But then in the Kena Upanishad, we have the following:



III-1. It is well-known that Brahman indeed achieved victory for the gods. But in that victory which was Brahman's the gods reveled in joy.

III-2. They thought, "Ours alone is this victory, ours alone is this glory". Brahman knew this their pride and appeared before them, but they knew not who this Yaksha (worshipful Being) was.

III-3. They said to Agni: "O Jataveda, know thou this as to who this Yaksha is". (He said "So be it."

III-4. Agni approached It. It asked him, "Who art thou?" He replied, "I am Agni or I am Jataveda".

III-5. (It said "What is the power in thee, such as thou art?" (Agni said "I can burn all this that is upon the earth."

III-6. For him (It) placed there a blade of grass and said: "Burn this". (Agni) went near it in all haste, but he could not burn it. He returned from there (and said "I am unable to understand who that Yaksha is".

III-7. Then (the gods) said to Vayu: "O Vayu, know thou this as to who this Yaksha is". (He said "So be it".

III-8. Vayu approached It. It said to him, "Who art thou?" He replied, "I am Vayu or I am Matarsiva".

III-9. (It said "What is the power in thee, such as thou art?" (Vayu said "I can take hold of all this that is upon the earth".

III-10. For him (It) placed there a blade of grass and said: "Take this up". (Vayu) went near it in all haste, but he could not take it up. He returned from there (and said "I am unable to understand who that Yaksha is".

III-11. Then (the gods) said to Indra: "O Maghava, know thou this as to who this Yaksha is". (He said "So be it". He approached It, but It disappeared from him.

III-12. In that space itself (where the Yaksha had disappeared) Indra approached an exceedingly charming woman. To that Uma decked in gold (or to the daughter of the Himalayas), he said: "Who is this Yaksha?"


IV-1. She said: "It was Brahman. In the victory that was Brahman's you were reveling in joy". Then alone did Indra know for certain that It was Brahman.

IV-2. Therefore, these gods viz. Agni, Vayu and Indra excelled other gods, for they touched Brahman who stood very close and indeed knew first that It was Brahman.


So, QED, there is another Indra, another Vayu, and another Agni who are not Brahman.

I guess we just have to reconcile ourselves to the idea that Brahman can have the same names as the other devas, in spite of being different from those other devas. That seems simple enough to me. I would never assume that two people with the same name are ipso facto the same person. But then, I'm a simple-minded kinda guy...

:-)

philosoraptor

yajvan
01 June 2012, 08:06 PM
hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

namasté

The hint to the knowledge found in the kena upaniṣad (some write kenopaniṣad) is found in the first word 'keneṣitaṁ'. It means 'by whom' or 'by what' , or 'how, why' - caused ( or sent out or discharged )


kena - by whom ?
iṣita - caused It is the śiṣya (student) asking the teacher , by whom or who causes the mind to alight on its objects ( of perception is implied).

Thus begins the teaching of brahmavidya. The whole first kaṇḍa ( section sets the stage to explain that brahman is the essence (sāraḥ) of everything seen and unseen.
Once this is apprecaited then in the 3rd kaṇḍa can be put in proper perspective. It is the senses that think they are superior,then the devatā think they are the ones. The kenopaniṣad puts in perspective who really is Supreme and is behind all, the essence of all.


praṇām

philosoraptor
01 June 2012, 10:08 PM
Namaste,

I don't see how "keneShitaM" alters the straightforward meaning of the third kaNDa regarding the devatas' subserviance to Brahman. On the contrary, it is in perfect harmony with it. The first mantra translated:

"Prompted by whom does the mind function in its objects? Being directed by whom does the Chief vital air proceed to function? By whom is this speech directed that people utter? Who is that effulgent God that directs the eyes and the ears?"

The student is asking about that principle upon which everything else is dependent, namely Brahman. The third kaNDa is in accord with this, as it demonstrates that even the devas are not independent of Brahman. Hence it begins with the statement that Brahman actually won victory for the devas.

This is actually quite reminiscent of Sri Krishna's instruction to Arjuna that the Kauravas on the battlefield are already killed by Him, and that Arjuna should merely fight as His instrument. How much more clearly to make the point of everyone's dependence on Brahman, than to illustrate the principle with regard to the devas!

regards,

philosoraptor

Ganeshprasad
05 June 2012, 05:20 PM
Is Ganeshprasad suggesting that the shrutis are an inconsistent hodgepodge of contradictory ideas?
:-)

philosoraptor

Pranam

Where do you get off from your high horse, here is a person who withdrew from a discussion because I posed a question (insinuation it was not) yet here he is accusing me of presenting shruti to be hodgepodge.

I never said they are contradictive either. All of them who have preconceived ideas will try and match to suit even if one has to force the meaning. All Vedic Devas are an aspect of one Brahman as Yagnavalkya explains to King Janak, from 33 to to 1

Funny how you insist on straightforward meaning with your debate, here as well with Devotee ji but suggest in order to understand Rishi Dirghatamas sukta we have to fall back on Brahman claiming all the names, only problem is Vaishnava claim it to be theirs Saiva would do the same but a simple understanding that all these devas represent the same Brahman in its various aspect makes the best plausible understanding.
Only when we have hierarchy problem it begins to pose a question. Oh yes you provided a verse where Indra is lowest and Vishnu is highest for which you did not have the verse no, that’s ok I have no problem with that. Question is do we compare the likes or do we compare Jiva and god?

As to kena UP that is also very interesting yes these deva fails to comprehend Brahman and Uma show the way , now I am not trying to prove Shiva is Brahman and not Vishnu, far from it, just to say it is more then just meet the eye.

Book 1 HYMN CI. Indra.
1. SING, with oblation, praise to him who maketh glad, who with Rjisvan drove the dusky brood away. Fain for help, him the strong whose right hand wields the bolt, him girt by Maruts we invoke to be our Friend.
-----
5 He who is Lord of the entire world that moves and breathes, who for the Brahman first before all found the Cows; Indra who cast the Dasyus down beneath his feet,-him girt by Maruts we invoke to be our Friend.

6 ------
7 Refulgent in the Rudras' region he proceeds, and with the Rudras through the wide space speeds the Dame

Note: Indra first came to know about Brahman. This is mentioned in Keno Upanishad where Parvati first reveals the secret of Brahman to Indra. It is Durga alone who can open the gates of knowledge.

Note: Indra remains refulgent in the Rudras' region, and with the Rudras through the wide space speeds the Dame.

Jai Shree Krishna

philosoraptor
05 June 2012, 05:37 PM
Pranams,


Pranam

Where do you get off from your high horse, here is a person who withdrew from a discussion because I posed a question (insinuation it was not) yet here he is accusing me of presenting shruti to be hodgepodge.

Again, your earlier statement:



This debate of hierarchy has been debated here in this forum till one is blue in the face......

We may refer this matter to an expert (but again I fear that experts are themselves of many kinds, driven by their predilections.)... Resolution of such debates is never possible. Ending of questions is never possible -- new doubts will be ever cropping up.

The above statement sounds it like it is saying one of two things:
1) There can be no clear resolution to the discussion of deva-tAratamya. There will always be contradictory evidence and no way to reconcile them.
2) There can be no clear resolution to the discussion of deva-tAratamya. Although there are references indicating hierachy, these should be reinterpreted in such a way as to indicate no hierarchy.

Hence, the question. Is Ganeshprasad claiming that the shrutis are internally contradictory? Or is he merely stating that any interpretation he does not like is contradicted by evidence, and only his interpretation reconciles the contradiction?

I think it's a fair question. And just to reassure you, I'm not posing it from a high horse. In fact, I'm seated on a chair. And it's not even a high chair. It's just one of those rolly-office-type chairs. :)

regards,

Ganeshprasad
06 June 2012, 04:10 AM
Pranam


Pranams,



Again, your earlier statement:



The above statement sounds it like it is saying one of two things:
1) There can be no clear resolution to the discussion of deva-tAratamya. There will always be contradictory evidence and no way to reconcile them.
2) There can be no clear resolution to the discussion of deva-tAratamya. Although there are references indicating hierachy, these should be reinterpreted in such a way as to indicate no hierarchy.

Hence, the question. Is Ganeshprasad claiming that the shrutis are internally contradictory? Or is he merely stating that any interpretation he does not like is contradicted by evidence, and only his interpretation reconciles the contradiction?

I think it's a fair question. And just to reassure you, I'm not posing it from a high horse. In fact, I'm seated on a chair. And it's not even a high chair. It's just one of those rolly-office-type chairs. :)

regards,

Fair question or not it is all in your head because you are only reading what you want to hear, i am not suggesting sruti is contradictory or insisting my own interpretation to it, i am all for applying straight forward meaning to it. on the contrary it is likes of you who have to fall back on interpretation. Shrutis are revelation of various Rishis looking at from different angle, at the end of the day no amount of revelation will make you realized person, we have to apply and seek the truth. the truth that Saiva, Vaishnava or a Sakta will apply from their perspective.

i leave you with Manduka UP to perhaps understand where i am coming from.

He is not knowable by perception, turned inward or outward, nor by both combined.
He is neither that which is known, nor that which is not known, nor is he the sum of all that might be known.
He can not be seen, grasped, bargained with.
He is undefineable, unthinkable, indescribable.
The only proof of his existence is union with him.
He is the peaceful, the good, the one without a second.
This is the fourth condition of the self- the most worthy of all. (Mandukya Upanishad)

Off course we may have a slight difference in our translations but i like the gist of it, the only proof of his existence is in knowing him.

Jai Shree Krishna