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Gill Harley
05 April 2006, 04:05 AM
My two year old grand-daughter is coming to stay with me at Easter, and she has already shown how advanced an incarnation she is by her devotion to our family guru, which has been completely unprompted by us.

I feel as if my role is to take care of her spiritual education and I would like, at Easter, to teach her the Gayathri Mantra.

She already loves songs and poems so she would find it easy to learn it. But, knowing how powerful that mantra is, I'm wondering if there is a recommended age for children learning it and whether, maybe, two years old is too young?

Can anyone advise me on this?

Namo Narayana
05 April 2006, 09:00 AM
Gill, there is no age for learning. Abhimanyu (half) learnt how to come out of chakra vyoogam while he was in womb.
If you think she can learn then no reason should stop you.

Namo Narayana
05 April 2006, 09:03 AM
My two year old grand-daughter is coming to stay with me at Easter, and she has already shown how advanced an incarnation she is by her devotion to our family guru, which has been completely unprompted by us.



Gill could you detail more about your grand daughter ? how does she show devotion for your family guru ?

Gill Harley
05 April 2006, 10:01 AM
My grand daughter's name is Kaya, and her mother is my daughter, Lucy, who, like me is a devotee of Sai Baba. However, we didn’t try to bring Sai Baba to Kaya’s attention, but just let her do what came naturally.

Lucy has only one very small picture of Sai Baba and she keeps in her bedroom, high up on a cabinet. Kaya loves this picture. She cuddles it and takes it to bed with her, and insists on propping it up against the wall of the bathroom when she’s taking her bath.

Lucy also has a small book containing pictures of Sai Baba and underneath them, there are some of his sayings. Kaya often chooses this as her bedtime story book, even though she has about 50 other more typical children’s books to choose from. Kaya can’t understand, on an intellectual level, what’s being read to her from this book, and there are no pictures, to give her a clue, as there are in her regular children’s books. Despite this, when Lucy gets to the end of the book and closes it, Kaya says “Nice!”.

When I heard that Kaya was naturally showing an interest in Sai Baba, I gave her some cards with his picture on that I had left over from when I taught in his orphanage in Andhra Pradesh. They are just small cards – about 30 of them - that I would hand out as prizes to children who did well in their studies. Kaya was delighted with them. Now she plays with them in the same way that a child would play with playing cards. She pairs up those that a similar and points out special features in them – for example, she points to the Sai Baba holding a linga and says ‘linga’.

And when she comes to my house, she likes to watch videos of Sai Baba. The first time I showed her a video of him, she sat absolutely still for about half-an-hour, in total absorption. Then Lucy came into the room. She didn’t know we were watching a Sai Baba video, but she said “Wow! What’s happening in here?” because the atmosphere had become so sacred.

Now Kaya is learning nursery rhymes and children’s poems at her playgroup, and her favourite one is Baa Baa Black Sheep. I’m convinced that it’s because she thinks it about Sai Baba!

Namo Narayana
05 April 2006, 11:18 AM
very fascinating.

sarabhanga
06 April 2006, 02:19 AM
Namaste Gill,

The Gayatri is usually imparted at the time of Upanayana Samskara.

And, following Shri Candrashekharendra Sarasvati:

A Brahmin child’s Upanayana must be performed when he is eight years old from conception ~ that is when he is seven years and two months old from birth.

A Kshatriya’s is to be performed at the age of twelve ~ and Shri Krishna was invested with the sacred thread at that age.

The corresponding age for a Vaishya is sixteen.

And there is no rule for Shudras.

The lower limit of Brahmin youngsters is eight years and the upper limit is sixteen, which means a grace of eight years ~ and it is sinful not to have performed Upanaya of a Brahmin boy before his passing the upper age limit.

Uttarayana is the right period to perform Upanayana ~ when the sun journeys northwards.

The Upanayana is sometimes performed when the boy is only five years old ~ and this is called Kamyopanayana. Such early Upanayana is all right if you want the child to develop inwardly at an early age. But seven years is the proper age for the child to be invested with sacred thread because by now he would have learned enough Sanskrit to chant the mantras clearly.

Adi Shankara’s Upanayana, it is believed, was performed when he was five years old ~ and if the child is extraordinarily intelligent and can articulate words properly, then his Upanayana may be performed at five years.

A girl has neither Upanayana nor Brahmacaryasrama.

Men marry after their Upanayana and student-bachelorhood, although for women marriage is their Upanayana. Just as a boy dedicates himself to his Guru, a girl dedicates herself to her husband, from her childhood until the start of their conjugal life and beyond. Upanayana means “taking near”, taking a boy near his Guru for his Brahmacaryasrama; but a woman’s Guru is her husband, and marriage to him is her Upanayana.

The married woman’s Mangalasutra is the equivalent of a man’s sacred thread.

There is no set rule for teaching the Gayatri to a young girl, but this would not normally happen until she was at least seven years old, and it would generally be her husband’s responsibility.

Gill Harley
06 April 2006, 04:26 AM
Thank you very much Sharabanga Giri.

However, it still leaves me in a bit of a quandary because it appears that the rules for women are different and I wonder what would be the case if she decides to be a celibate, like her grandmother - then she would have no husband to teach her.

I'm also moved in this because my guru complains about children being taught meaningless rhymes and verses. He says that the children should be taught the Vedic chants instead. As to her being capable of pronouncing and reciting, she can already recite the meaningless rhymes - so I'm sure she would be able to recite the Gayathri mantra. I also think that this love she has for repeating anything with a metre is because in her last life she was chanting Vedic mantras.

So I'm still thinking about what I should do. But many thanks for your help anyway!

sarabhanga
06 April 2006, 05:07 AM
Namaste Gill,

If the child has no possibility of marriage, then the responsibility rests with her Guru. But even then, only a child that is more precocious than Shri Shankaracarya or Shri Krishna should be given formal instruction in the Gayatri Mantra before the age of five!

Why not read the Bhagavadgita to her? In Sanskrit, if you must.

Gill Harley
06 April 2006, 09:14 AM
Thank you Sarabhanga, you have convinced me not to go ahead with it.

I realise that I need to follow the discipline laid down by the sages because they knew what they were talking about! Unlike me! :(

Namo Narayana
06 April 2006, 09:52 AM
I still dont think there is anything wrong in a 2 yr old girl learning gayathri.
But somepeople say women should not chant vishnu sahasranamam and only lalitha sahasranamam. some of my female cousins follow that routine while some have rebelled.

i personally was done upanayana when i was 24 though i should have done at 8. but knew the mantra before that.

from what sarabhanga wrote he only gives out the calendar for different kinds of people but doesnt anywhere makes me feel that we need to blindly follow the tradition without questioning.
Am i wrong ?

Gill Harley
06 April 2006, 10:23 AM
I don't think you're wrong, but I do think we have too much freedom in the West, and it makes us unwilling to follow our guides, who knew better than us.

Also, the advantage of following the rules laid down by the sages is this: if it turns out to be the wrong thing to do , you don't have to bear the karma of it. If we disobey the teachings and the action turns out to be detrimental, we will then have to bear the karma of it.

So seeing as the purpose of this life is to burn our karma to reach Godhead, I think that it's wise to follow the discipline laid down, even if it seems wrong, or we don't understand it.

Having said that, if my guru Sai Baba comes to me in a dream (or materialises in my room, as he did once) and tells me to give Kaya the Gayathri Mantra, I wouldn't hesitate as he is my Guide of Guides, my guru who is taking me from darkness to light.

Eternal Law
06 April 2006, 10:31 AM
I believe You are right, Namo Narayan.

Eternal Law
06 April 2006, 10:45 AM
If we believe Brahmin is not by birth but by nature of soul, if Brahmin is one who knows Brahman or have a strong urge to know Brahman then how can we perform rituals of Brahmin on 8 year old boy (just because he is son of Brahmin?)?

Namo Narayana
06 April 2006, 10:50 AM
Gill why dont you politely question your guru or your knowledge ?

Gill Harley
06 April 2006, 11:02 AM
Yes, I am politely questioning him! :) And 'my' knowledge is 'his' anyway. Any wisdom that I have comes from him.

But, you may not know this, he is also nicknamed by his devotees at 'Last Minute Sai' - in other words, you often don't get the answer until just in the nick of time, say, as soon as my grand-daughter arrives on Good Friday. That is a week away!

Namo Narayana
06 April 2006, 05:51 PM
my cousins are devotees of the SAI for quite a long time. how did you get into sai devotion ? when you say Sai is your guru , does it mean like he did the conversion in hinduism for you or he is just a guru by reading his teachings.

Gill Harley
07 April 2006, 03:34 AM
Hi Namo Narayana.

Thank you for asking about my relationship with Sai Baba.

Millions of people come to see Sai Baba, but mostly they are just spiritual tourists passing through and they don't really connect with him, or even want to. As for me, it's very different. Lucy (my daughter) and I went to see Sai Baba for the first time in 1998 and a very strong connection was established to the extent that he gave me padnamaskar on Guru Purnima day to cement the relationship.

Now I have a very intense relationship with him which is telepathic. He comes in my dreams to instruct me, and has twice materialised himself in my room.

My life is dedicated to what he wants me to do. I live like a nun, a renunciate, as much as is possible in the West. I also hope to have my book about my experiences with him published at some point soon.

Singhi Kaya
07 April 2006, 10:15 AM
Shaktibad says gayatri upanayana is not only right but must for a girl as well. But do follow the dharmic rules of when to initiate. Finally take your guru's openion.

Gill Harley
07 April 2006, 10:53 AM
As I said, I will take my guru's opinion, but I was also interested in what Sarabhanga Giri had to say on it as, imho, we are very lucky to have him on this forum. The Giris are sannyasis of the highest order, and are very well drilled in the dharma.

We have to be prepared to be follow the discipline laid down by the sages, otherwise, no matter how wise we think we are, we are not following the dharma. I thought that Sarabhanga Giri would know what the rules were on this issue, and I'm very grateful to him for telling us.

Namo Narayana
07 April 2006, 01:17 PM
Gill, giri means mountain or parvadha. I dont think it refers to sanyasi

Gill Harley
07 April 2006, 03:22 PM
I'm sure Sarabhanga Giri will correct me if I'm wrong but my understanding is that the Giri are a branch of saddhus or babas and they are divided into the Thirteen Lineages and the Fourteen Lineages. I believe that they used to be led by Madhu Giri Baba, although I doubt he's still alive now.

These guys are really the creme de la creme of renunciates. They really pay their dues - unlike us armchair philosophers! - and they are usually initiated into sannyasin at the Kumbha Mela, where they renounce everything, even the clothes they stand in. They worship the three-headed Dattatreya.

One thing they do know about it is the dharma, and imho their views should always be respected on it.

Namo Narayana
07 April 2006, 03:43 PM
I know , I am proud of them. I respect anyone who is trying to sustain the dharma philosophy. But the mind me keeps questioning why this has been said so. I always believe hinduism is related to science and physiology.

I have seen dattreya worshipped in bombay temples. Being a south indian, i am not aware of dattreya's history. I have also seen Jhulelal. Once I asked my mahatrashtrian friend, he said it is some gujarathi saint.

As a southindian I know vishnu brahma shiva, azhwar, nayanmars, thiruvalluvar , adisankara, ramanuja, raghavendra :) There may be some north indian saints that i may not know.

Gill Harley
07 April 2006, 04:08 PM
This might be of some help:

http://www.avatara.org/dattatreya/index.html

Namo Narayana
07 April 2006, 04:25 PM
have you heard about siddhas living in hills like mudhumalai in tamilnadu. they are not like a regular sanyasin. but they are said to be living for many hundreds of years if not thousands. their concept of living is to breath less and make your body live long. jains or samanas who had fued with siddhas in ancient tamil nadu were great experts in deep meditation/tapas or yoga nitra. Their fued was reason for Bakthi movement. It is hard to find info on them. I have leart about them thru my friends who live in villages.

Gill Harley
07 April 2006, 05:07 PM
Sorry Naro Narayana, I haven't heard about these siddhis.

I'm not especially interested in yogic siddhi powers myself. I'm more interested in God consciousness. I'm not saying that the two are exclusive of another, but that they often do come separately and because someone has siddhis, doesn't mean that they are in God consciousness, or can lead others in such a direction. There are a lot of very good sorcerers in India and they are not the least interested in the dharma.

My disinterest in siddhis may seem bizarre from one who follows a guru who materialises all sorts of things out of the air. In fact, it was this very fact that put me off Sathya Sai Baba when I first heard about him in 1971. Some friends came back from India and told us about him, but I wasn't interested in someone who 'pulled rabbits out of hats'..and I found another guru. It wasn't until the late Nineties that I realised that Sathya Sai Baba was a lot lot more than that, and then I went to see him.

Namo Narayana
07 April 2006, 05:28 PM
i agree with you. it is upto you to choose your path. like my path of hinduism. i think my path is different. i have not learnt many scriptures. i have groomed it by just praying to the deity. and occassional listening to discourses.

sarabhanga
07 April 2006, 06:30 PM
Namaste,

Shri Shankaracarya established 10 families of Sannyasins, with the names: Giri, Parvata, Sagara, Vana, Aranya, Ashrama, Tirtha, Sarasvati, Puri, and Bharati.

The Giris are divided into 27 houses, and those houses are arranged in two groups ~ the house of 13 and the house of 14.

Gurudeva Dattatreya is the Devata of the Juna Akhada, which today only includes three of the original ten names (i.e. Giri, Puri, and Bharati). The Juna Akhada has always worked at the front line of Dharma, and the other lineages have all been lost in past battles (mainly with Muslims), but the full set of ten names is still present in some of the other Akhadas.

Gill Harley
08 April 2006, 02:35 AM
Namaste,

The Juna Akhada has always worked at the front line of Dharma, and the other lineages have all been lost in past battles (mainly with Muslims), but the full set of ten names is still present in some of the other Akhadas.

Thank you Sarabhanga for that information.

Could you kindly answer another couple of questions that I have?

What exactly is an Akhada, and how does the Juna Akhada differ from the other Akhadas. Is it merely a geographical appellation or does Juna mean something else?

Secondly, does the Akhada accept women yoginis?

Many thanks indeed.

sarabhanga
08 April 2006, 02:50 AM
Namaste,

I have only been considering formal initiation with the Gayatri (which is generally equivalent with either Upanayana or marriage). But of course there is no problem if a young girl hears the mantra in the natural course of things and begins to repeat it of her own volition. In which case, questions may arise, which should be clarified as required; and there can certainly be no harm in anyone repeating Shri Gayatri Mantra.

Upanayana makes one responsible for the continued and correct practice if what one has learned ~ until the time of Sannyasa, when even the Vedic Gayatri is generally renounced. And so I hope you can see that Upanayana before the age of five years (at the very earliest) is not wise. To do so is a bit like the Christian custom of infant baptism to save the poor child from some unspecified inborn evil.

If Kaya learns the Gayatri that is wonderful ~ but just wait a while for any formal initiation. :)

Gill Harley
08 April 2006, 11:38 AM
Thanks Sarabhanga.

I wasn't intending to do any kind of initiation. I don't have the skill or power to do that, even should I want to. I just thouight it would be better for her to learn to sing the Gayatri Mantra rather than Baa Baa Black Sheep or Twinkle Twinkle Little Star, as she does at the moment. She very much enjoys the sound of words for their own sake, without knowing what they mean. Here is her favourite nonsense poem:

On the Ning Nang Nong
When the cows go Bong!
And the monkeys call go Boo!
There are Nong Nang Ning
Where the trees go Ping!
And the teapots Jibber Jabber Joo!
On the Nong Ning Nang
All the mice go Clang!
And you just can't catch 'em when they do!
So it's Ning Nang Nong
Cows go Bong!
Nong Nang Ning
Trees go Ping!
Nong Ning Nang!
The mice go Clang!
Waht a noisy place it is!

Spike Milligan

Now this may not seem very 'dharmic' but, at a closer glance, it does illustrate a universal truth. This is that young children are born with the love of the sound of words for their own sake - which is a step further along the road towards understanding Vedic mantras as opposed to the West's bastardisation of language into words being solely functional tools.

On top of that, my feeling is that if she can learn to recite the above poem, the Gayatri Mantra would seem simple by comparison and, not least, do her a lot more good (to use a dualistic concept)! :)

So given that I'm not going to do an initiation, I think that I will go ahead and teach her it - that is, unless Sai Baba lets me know otherwise!

sarabhanga
08 April 2006, 08:11 PM
Namaste Gill,

I have a great fondness for Spike Milligan, but if all of the intelligible words are removed from this poem, then it becomes PURE nonsense.

Deliberately teaching the Gayatri Mantra to a very young child would be equivalent with teaching her only: “Ning Nang Nong Bong Boo Nong Nang Ning Ping Jibber Jabber Joo Nong Ning Nang Clang Ning Nang Nong Bong Nong Nang Ning Ping Nong Ning Nang Clang!”


There is no problem if a young girl hears the mantra in the natural course of things and begins to repeat it of her own volition.
Learning does not always require specific instruction ~ and many things are best taught purely by example (especially with children). So if you are overheard chanting the Gayatri at dawn every morning, or the mantra happens to be included in music that is regularly heard, then Kaya would naturally notice its importance and automatically learn the sounds.

I have given advice, and made my point clear, and you are free to decide for yourself. I can really say no more on the matter.

sarabhanga
08 April 2006, 10:18 PM
And regarding Baa Baa Black Sheep:
Who is that Kala (Black) Baba Ajaikapad (like a Goat)?
What are his Sutras (Wool), and why would you want them?
What are the three Purna Bhagas (Full Bags)?
Who is the Lord (Master)?
Who is his Shakti (Dame)?
And who is their Little Boy (Son or Sun) who lives down the Lane (who dwells at the end of the Beam)?
There are obvious Christian connotations here, but the original Hindu interpretation is clear.
There is much more to most so-called Nursery Rhymes (and many supposedly childish fantasies such as Santa at the north pole) than most adults care to admit!
And I will leave Twinkle Twinkle Little Star for your own consideration ~ perhaps Kaya already understands it. :)

sarabhanga
09 April 2006, 03:40 AM
Namaste Gill,

AkhADa is like the ancient Greek concept of Gymnasium; and the Akhadas or Akharas are essentially (quasi-military) ascetic orders. There are 7 Dashanami Akhadas ~ Ananda, Niranjani, Juna, Avahan, Atal, Mahanirvani, and Agni. And there are also Vaishnava Akhadas modelled on the Shaiva system, and the two Udasin Akhadas, and the Natha Sampradaya also has some Akhada system. All of them are found throughout India, but more often in the north. And the rules for accepting women are different in each case, but there is no general prohibition of women in Akhadas ~ only that males and females in general must stay in their own ashrams. There are many women in some of the Akhadas, and even some “foreign” women.

A more likely restriction is the pure fact of being born as a non-Hindu, and the most orthodox groups will not allow “foreigners” as devotees, let alone initiated Sannyasins! It is not necessary, however, to join an Akhada to be a Sannyasin, and there are many more thousands of Dashanami Sannyasins (renunciate followers of Shri Shankaracarya) who have no association with Akhadas and Nagas ~ not to mention all of the Sannyasins who are members of other Sampradayas.

Gill Harley
09 April 2006, 09:38 AM
Hi Sarabhanga

Thank you so much for sparing the time to give me so much invaluable information. You have given me a real feast here!

Firstly, I agree absolutely: example is best for teaching children so that is obviously the best way forward.

Secondly, thank you for your interpretation of Baa Baa Black Sheep. That was most helpful. I am presently engaged in the task of showing how everything comes from the Vedas, even though we only get it here in an adulterated and corrupted form, but I had no idea that it would also include Baa Baa Black Sheep. Lucy, my daughter, will be fascinated!

Thirdly, I am absolutely DESPERATE to find some sort of ashram/hermitage where I can fulfill the purpose of my life, and so your information on the Akhada was most interesting as previously, I'd assumed that they wouldn't accept women. The time is not yet right for me, though. My parents are old and infirm and need me close by, and Sai Baba teaches that service to our parents is service to God. However, I do live within the confines of the dharma as much as is possible in this sort of lifestyle.

But as soon as the time is right, I will come to India and now I know, at least, where to make a start. (In case you were wondering, I wouldn't stay at Sai Baba's ashram. By the time I'm ready to begin the final ashrama, Sai Baba will have entered his final samadhi, and his ashram at Puttaparthi is a bit like a noisy circus at the best of times. In fact, in my book, I teasingly refer to Sai Baba as Mr Barnum and Bailey - he's always putting on a show to get the punters in!).

And finally, I ordered and read Rampuri's book, the link to which I found on your own website. But I'm now quite dumbstruck, because it made me realise two things: 1) Sai Baba has also entered my body, just as Hari Puri Baba has entered Rampuri's body and 2) I think like a foreigner, and I don't know what to do about it. :confused:

Both of the above I had, in fact, suspected for some time, so it's come as almost a relief to realise that I'm right, or at least that somebody else is experiencing the same thing. And it's not something you can talk about to anyone in the West because on 1), they would panic and call in the exorcist and on 2) they would think I was talking worse nonsense than Spike Milligan!

But it's good to know that I'm not the only one, and I'm sure Sai Baba will find a way forward for me. After all, if he doesn't, we'll both be stuck!

It's interesting, though, that Rampuri, in his book, was trying to work out when Hari Puri Baba entered his body, and assumed that it was after Hari Puri Baba's death, probably because he assumed Hari Puri Baba couldn't be in two places at once. I'm sure, though, that Sathya Sai Baba is not the only Baba that can enter people's bodies even while he is still alive, and live in a small house in Sevenoaks, Kent, England while still giving his darshan at Puttaparthi.

Anyway, so that's the other thing I have to thank you for - directing me towards Rampuri's book. It was most inspiring.

All best wishes to you!