A more fundamental , basic Question before we get into specifics......

[enquirer]

So there is a normal life. There are temples, and statues, and poojas. And then there are festivals, feasts,fasts, and deaths. And then there are ceremonies. There is punyajanam, upanayanam , and the last rites. Who is God afterall? Is God a peice of stone, that , was previously walked upon, by a thousand mortals? Or is God a powerful, all encompassing enitity that can transport you from the throes of evil and see you safely ashore in heaven? What is Upanayana? Is it a ceremony that makes a few people wear a peice of thread around yourself? The thread that , in course of time, gathers dirt and dust and loses color? Or is it a start of a search for another kind of a bond, that never loses color? A real bond, that empowers you to seek that ultimate truth?What is that initiation ceremony? Is it a ceremony that , little boys are dragged into sleepily, chanting hymns behind a yellow cloth that was dyed the previous night? Or is it given by a true Acharya - the one who can make you SEE and EXPERIENCE the Paramathma within yourself? The kind of experience that made Periazhwar cry out in esctasy

thirukkaNdEn, ponmEni kaNdEn- thigazhum/

arukkan Ani niRamum kaNdEn-seruk kiLaRum/

ponAzhi kaNdEn puri sangham kai kaNdEn/

en Azhi vaNNan pAl inRu/

Note here , that Periazhwar very clearly states "KANDEN" - not "Padithen". Therefore, clearly , the act of initiation makes you see, feel and experience. NOT chant hymns out of a book.

[yajvan]

Hari Om
~~~~~

So there is a normal life. There are temples, and statues, and poojas. And then there are festivals, feasts,fasts, and deaths. And then there are ceremonies. There is punyajanam, upanayanam , and the last rites. Who is God afterall? Is God a peice of stone, that , was previously walked upon, by a thousand mortals? Or is God a powerful, all encompassing enitity that can transport you from the throes of evil and see you safely ashore in heaven? What is Upanayana? ...Or is it given by a true Acharya - the one who can make you SEE and EXPERIENCE the Paramathma within yourself?
Note here , that Periazhwar very clearly states "KANDEN" - not "Padithen". Therefore, clearly , the act of initiation makes you see, feel and experience. NOT chant hymns out of a book.

Namaste enquirer,

You mention many things. Perhaps if you let us know your question , statement or what you wish to discuss, we can take the conversation further.
re: initiation - this is true. Assume your comments on chanting is not mutually exclusive to the initiation conversation.

Let us know what venue you wish to bring up and we (HDF) can participate.

pranams,

[Sudarshan]

Note here , that Periazhwar very clearly states "KANDEN" - not "Padithen". Therefore, clearly , the act of initiation makes you see, feel and experience. NOT chant hymns out of a book.

Hi, welcome.

Periazhwar means much more when saying KANDEN, not just 'experiencing' in the way of the common man - AzhvArs are those in communion with God at the highest depth of experience. AzhvAr itself means "immersed". (in God)

That is not the same when a man undergoes initiation and says "I experience God". We begin to feel God in an invisible way usually ( as if everything is guided by God) , and that is not the case of Periazhwar.

[saidevo]

Namaste enquirer,


So there is a normal life. There are temples, and statues, and poojas. And then there are festivals, feasts,fasts, and deaths. And then there are ceremonies. There is punyajanam, upanayanam , and the last rites. Who is God afterall? Is God a peice of stone, that , was previously walked upon, by a thousand mortals?

Note here , that Periazhwar very clearly states "KANDEN" - not "Padithen". Therefore, clearly , the act of initiation makes you see, feel and experience. NOT chant hymns out of a book.


God is everywhere and He is everything. It is not just that the thread gets dirty. More important is that our mind gets dirty far easier. This is Kali Yuga. We are surrounded by adharmic forces that seek to destroy our faith in God. Since we are basically gullible we are after the maya of such forces, rather than the Truth. All the rites, rituals, idols and other threads of traditions are there to remind us of the real purpose of our life and the connection between us and God. They are necessary. Without them, one cannot hope to seek the path of jnana. The path of jnana yoga starts with yama and niyama. The bhakti and karma paths are excellent foundation for acquiring these yama and niyama. Adi Sankara, the greatest of the Advaitins, and who is our mAnasIka guru has recommended bhakti and karma as the first steps to initiation.

Initiation is normally done by a guru. Not everyone is keen on seeking a guru. Not everyone who seeks a guru gets him. These things does not disqualify or dilute a man's quest for Truth. So long as a seeker is sincere in his efforts, he is sure to be on the right path. Being on the right path he need not worry about initiation. That will happen eventurally. Even a guru shows the path to the Truth which should be traversed alone by the sishya. God is everyone's guru.