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anirvan
09 March 2012, 12:16 AM
"sadeba soumyedmagra asidekamebadwitiyam!
ityupkramya tadaikshat bahusyam prajayeya iti"!!
Chhandyogyopanisad.

Arunu said " hey swaetaketu, before evolving into this creation,the universe was in the form of SAT ,one and only.this one and only sat thought/decided that he will become many.

"satyaloke nirakara mahajyotih-swarupini !
mayachhaditatmanam chanakararupini !!
Mayavalkalm samtyajya dwidhabhinna yadonmukhi!
shivashakti vibhagena jayate sristi kalpana !! (nirvana tantra)

In Satyaloka,the formless mahajyoti swaroop parambrahma embeds himself within his own-mahajyotiswaroopa maya like a Peas seeds and remains in his sat state.
As in a peas seed, two half stays united along with the germ bud wrapped with the skin, similarly the prakriti-purusha are two half of the seeds ,remains along with the brahma-chaitanya(germ bud) and the skin as Maya.

The prakrita-purusha/siva-shakti burst open from the skin of maya and create the Universe/jiva-jagat.

why its called ;"prakriti -purusha along with the brahma-chaitanya"??
Because the prakriti-purushatmaka jiva become conscious/chetana because of brahma-chaitanya.once this chaitanya leaves the body,jiva becomes dead.

I will become many--the very desire converts the supreme brahman into manifest chaitanya/purusha and the desire becomes mulatita mula prakriti !

In the matter of senses,body as effect,the cause is prakriti, and in the matter of enjoyment of happiness and sorrow,the cause is purusha.(BG 13/20,Bhagabatam 3/26/8)

Purushasya darsanartham kaibalyartham tatha pradhanasya !
pangwavat ubhayorapi samyogstatkrutah swargah!! (samkhyakarika)

Prakriti is achetana/acit,so blind.purusha motioness,so handicapped.but when a blind carry a limp/motionless,the motionless will guide path to the blind and both
can reach a destination,similarly prakriti-purusha combined create and sustain the creation.

Mana
09 March 2012, 01:00 AM
Namaste anirvan,

Thank you anirvan, for your posting; I can not easily tell from which sect my appreciation of this most beautiful tradition and wisdom comes. I rejoice in your sharing of it, of the infinite; that which grows between prakriti & purusha.

praNAma

mana

anirvan
09 March 2012, 01:26 AM
Now we will see what is the nature of prakrita?

sattvarajahstamasam samyabastha prakriti !!

when the sattva,rajah,tamah remains in perfect balanced state(equal propertion),its called prakriti.In this state it is changeless,formless,unmanifest(abyakta).there is no loss or growth.

when there starts the in-equilibrium,one guna dominates the other,slowly the changing states starts with growth/loss. The first manifestation is called Mahatattva,2nd ahamtattva,3rd senses & paramanu(atom) and 4th jagat.

'Ajamekam lohit-sukla-krushnam !
Bahvi prajah srujmanam swaroopah "!! (svetasvetoropanisad)

Prakriti is one and only,unborn(eternal) red-white-darkn (trigunamayi) and the cause of all bikara . She is unborn because she menifest in the form of wish of brahman just like the smell of flower.no creation neither destruction.

Na sat utpthyate na sat binasyati !(samkhya)

Nasato vidyate bhavo nabhavo vidyate satah! (BG)

There is not creation of asat,no destruction of sat.

So the undifferentiated causal root of the manifested creation is called PRAKRITI or Pradhana (eternal homogenous matter).Its another name is called ABYAKTA.

At the end of pralaya,the manifest jagat comes out of ABYAKTA and at the end of creation.the manifest jagat dissapear into the abyakta-prakriti. BG-8/18

This prakriti is according to naming two types.1-Avidya,2 Maya.

"cHidanandamayabrahma pratibimba samanwita !
tamorajahsattvaguna prakritihdwividhi ca sa !
sattva-sudhhya bisudhhibhyam maya-vidye ca te mate !!" (panchadasi 1/15-16)

Combined with the reflection of sat-cit-anand brahman,in the perfect balanced state of sattva-rajah-tamah guna,the PRAKRITI acquire two forms named AVIDYA and MAYA because of inequalities of SATTVA-SUDDHHI.

When sattva is not tainted by rajah and tamah,its called sattva-suddhhi and SATTVA-PRADHAN. when its tainted with rajah-tamah,its called sattva-asudhhi or MALINA(pale/diminished)-SATTVA PRADHAN.

AVIDYA =BYASTI (individualized) MALINA-SATTVA PRADHAN IGNORANCE

MAYA = SAMASTIBHUTA SUDHHA SATTVA PRADHAN IGNORANCE .
avidya can compared with a tree and maya to forest. avidya is no different from maya.

Again prakriti,maya,avidya and Ignorance all four belongs to one definition and same.

" nistattwa karyagamyasya shaktirmayagnishaktivat "
na hi shaktih kwacit kaischit budhvte karyatah pura!!" (panchadashi-2/47)

The MAYA is the root cause of jagat,un-differentiated from parambrahman and has no separate state from brahman. After experiencing burning,we imagine the burning capacity of fire,similarly seeing the action of jagat,we imagine the shakti of parambrahman.but its always un-differentiated.

anirvan
09 March 2012, 02:34 AM
Now we will discuss little about panchikaran...the process of evolution from unmanifest prakriti to everything manifested.

Ahamkar is two types.ONE is effected from PARAHANTA-form-sat who is none other than PRAKRITI(unmanifest). one is effected from MAHATTVA.

Brahman when manifested becomes 1-Ishwar/sagunabrahman/purisha and 2- his ichha-shakti is Prakriti/adyahakti mahamaya.

The sattva,raja,tamah when in perfect balanced state,there will be no reflection of Ishwar in it.

KALA,CHAITANYA,SAT-ASATMIKA SHAKTI(time-consciousness and sadasadatmika shakti) their combination forms pradhana and mahatattva.

When there will be in-equilibrium or in-equalities among the three gunas in prakriti,there will appear the reflection of Ishwar in prakriti.This first reflection is called PARA-HANTA.This is the first ahamkar. and the cause is prakriti.the first EFFECT(-manifestation) is PARAHANTA -AHAMKAR(COLLECTIVE INTELLIGENCE -samasti-budhhi tattva).

Now the parahanta (collective intelligence) will become cause and the effect,the second manifestation will be mahatattva(intelligence-budhhi).

Now the mahatattva act as cause and the effect is AHAM-TATTVA. This aham-tattva is the root cause of panchikaran and evolution os PANCHA-MAHA-BHUTA/pancha tanmatra.

This pancha-mahabhuta is actually effected from pancha-tanmatra . from the sattvikansha(sattva pancha tanmatra) will effect 5 jnanendriya, effected 5 karmendriya through raja guna .

After evolution of this 10 senses(jnana and karmendriya),the pancha tanmatra
forms pancha mahabhuta. the combined sattiva part of these pancha-mahabhuta will cause MIND.

The Aham-tattva is three types according to its manifestation power through three guna of sattva,rajah,tamah.
This(mahatattva) ahamkar(ego) in sattvika state will become jnana-shakti,in rajas state will become kriya shakti and arthajanika shakti in tamah state.

From this artha-shakti, the sound,touch,form,taste,smell created,from these gunas, sukhma pancha-mahabhuta created.like smell creates earth,sound creates ether,touch creates air,form creates fire,taste creates water.

There is exhustive list which i will put later.

how this panchikaran takes place.the answer is --

"chhandamsi vayee viswaroopani !" (satapath brahman)

Chhanda is the vibration of of voice.

"prithvi chhandah,antarikshah chhandah,thyoschhandah,nakshatrani chhandah,krishischhandah,gauschhandah,bakschhandah,ajachhandah,aswachhandah !!" (yajurveda).

what is these world,sky,galaxy,star,speech,agriculture,cow,goat,horse???
These are nothing but vibrations.

jayaguru

wundermonk
09 March 2012, 05:35 AM
Now we will discuss little about panchikaran...the process of evolution from unmanifest prakriti to everything manifested.

Hello anirvan:

Do you think Samkhya is a realist school or an idealist school of thought?

The reason why I ask is that I believe the Samkhyan categories of evolution of Prakriti is thought to be either cosmogonical or psychological or both by some.

The thing is how can unmanifest prakriti become manifest? In my interpretation, Samkhya is agnostic or anirvachaniya in terms of IF there is an external world outside of the realms of buddhi/manas/ahamkara. The gunas [sattva, rajas and tamas] endow properties or qualities to this anirvachaniya experience.The gunas themselves cannot become dravya [substance]. Samkhya is essentially agnostic on whether a mind-independent dravya exists.

Also, the reflection of purusha on prakriti decides all our experiences. For instance, we humans look at a snake and run away because our experiences are subject to OUR prakritic conditioning. However, how a mongoose reacts when it looks at a snake is different and this can be explained by its prakritic conditioning.

devotee
09 March 2012, 05:38 AM
Namaste Anirvan,

Thanks for starting this thread. Thanks for sharing valuable thoughts.

Let me explain MAyA from Upanishads :

What does MAyA mean :

MAyA is made of MA + YA = Not + That is ==> Not that is ==> That which makes a thing appear different from what it really is, is MAyA.

How did this word come into usage ?

Some people say this word was coined by Adi Guru Sri ShankarAchArya but it is not true. This word has its origin in the Vedas. Many Upanishads use and define this term. I will quote here some of the Upanishads which would help us understand what MAyA is.

MAyA in Upanishads :

1. I found a very good explanation of MAyA in SarvasAropanishad. Let’s see what it says :

Katham bandhah katham mokshah kA vidyA kAvidyeti. JAgratsvapnasushuptiturIyam cha katham. ..... KartA JIvah panchavarNAh kshetragyah kootsthoantaryAmi katham. PratygAtmA mAyA cheti katham.
==>

It asks these questions first :

What is bondage (of the Soul) ? What is Moksha (liberation) ? What is Avidya (nescience) ? What is Vidya (knowledge) ? .... What is the Karta (agent), what the Jiva (individual self), the Kshetrajna (knower of the body), the Sakshi (Witness), the Kutastha, the Antaryamin (Internal Ruler) ? What is the Pratyagatman (Inner Self), what the Paramatman (Supreme Self), the Atman, and also Maya ?

And then answers all these questions as given below :

Self which is Ishwar and JIva when looks upon the body and identifies itself with similar (non-self) things other than the Self as Itself: this egoism is the bondage of the soul. The cessation of that (egoism) is Moksha, liberation. That which causes that egoism is Avidya, nescience. That by which this egoism is completely turned back is Vidya, knowledge.

It again tries to explain MAyA further as the Upanishad proceeds :

MAyA nAm anAdirrantarvarttnI TatpadArthAdauoAdhibhedAdvilakshNamAkAshvat sookshmam kevalam sattAmAtrasvabhAvam param Brahmetyuchyate. AgyAn tucchhApsya satI kAltrayepi pAmrANAm ..... vaktum na sakyate.


=> That which is beginningless but that which ends. That which is neither Sat (existence) nor Asat (non-existence) but appears taintless ... that power is known as MAyA. This MAyA is has a form of ignorance (AvidyA), it is of no value and it is False but to deluded souls it appears as real in all the three states (Jagrat, Svapna and Sushupti), therefore, by saying that It (MAyA) is like this ... it cannot be exactly explained.


2. AdhyAtmopanishad :

This Upanishad tells us that this Universe is MAyA-rupA
:
MAyopAdhirjgadyonih sarvagyahtvAdilakshNah |
PArokshyashabalah satyAdyAtmakstatpadAbhidhah ||

==> That which is the origin of this world having mAyArupa upAdhi, and has omniscience etc. as His qualities, is a friend in indirect way and which is the Truth that Self is known as the Sat.

3. SvetAsvataropanishad :

This Upanishad tells us that Prakriti (NATURE) is MAyA and God is the Lord of MAyA.

AsmAnmAyI srijate vishvametat, tasmishchAnyo mAyayA sanniruddhah |
mAyAm tu prakriti vidyAnmAyinam tu maheshwara |
tasyAvayavabhootaistu vyAptam sarvamidam jagat ||

==> The Lord of Maya projects the Vedas, sacrifices, spiritual practices, past and future, religious observances, all that the Vedas declare, and the whole world including ourselves. The other, again, is bound by Maya in this. Know then that Nature is Maya, and that the great God is the Lord of Maya. The whole world is filled with beings who form His parts.

4. Panchbrahmopanishad :

This Upanishad tells us that Lord Shiva after destroying all things born by MAyA stays in his Self. The Devas don’t know Him as they are deluded by the power of MAyA.

PanchbrahmopasamhAram kritva svatmani sansthitah |
svamAyayavaibhavAn sarvAn sanhritya svAtmani sthitah ||

5. Atmopanishad :

This Upanishad tells us that there is nothing but Brahman. Everything devoid of any trace of duality shines as Brahman alone. It is none but Brahman alone which reflects as the world. There is no VidyA, Avidya, no world and not anything else which is the reality (it is all but Brahman alone).

Ref : Slokas 1 to 5

Again, this Upanishad tells us that Bondage and Liberation which arise due to MAyA don’t affect the Brahman in reality, it is only a delusion.

Ref : Slokas 26 to 31.

Sloka 26 is quoted here :

Amushya BrahmabhUtvadbrahmanah kuta udbhavah |
MayAklriptau bandhmokshau na stah svAtmani vastutah ||


OM

devotee
09 March 2012, 05:45 AM
Namaste,

Some more references on MAyA in Upanishads :

6. Kaivalyopanishad :

This Upanishad tells us that under the influence of MAyA, the man considers this body as reality and enjoys sensual pleasures in the waking state. Again, even in the dream state, he enjoys and suffers the pleasures and pains in the imagined Jivaloka. All these vanish in the sushupti (deep sleep) state. This Jiva moves in the three states, the gross, the subtle and the causal which are all the creation of MAyA. When all these three bodies (gross, subtle and the causal) are dissolved, then he enjoys the unbroken bliss.
Ref : Slokas 12 to 14.

7. Atmaprabodhopanishad :

This Upanishad is spoken by a Rishi who has realised Self. He says,

“PragalitnijmAyoham nistuladrishirUpvastumAtroham |
Astimitahantoham pragalitajagdIshjIvabhedoham || 2.1||

===> My own Maya is dissolved. I am incomparable vision alone. My “i” (egoism, attachment to "i") is destroyed. The difference between the world and the Jiva and God is destroyed.

It Further says :

I am the expansive Bliss; I am the witness, independent, exerting in my greatness; without old age and decay, opposing sides, pure knowledge, the ocean of liberation; I am subtle without any attributes. I am without three qualities, all worlds exists in my belly; the changeless consciousness, beyond reason and action, I have no parts, I am unborn, pure reality.


8. Pangalyopanishad :

It says :

The eminent Yajnavalkya replied: Dear one, in the beginning this indeed existed. It was the eternally free, immutable, everlastingly one, secondless Brahman, full of Truth, Knowledge and Bliss. (Sloka 1.2)
In it existed the primordial and indefinable Prakriti, consisting of Gunas in a state of equipoise, red, white and dark, resembling (the existence of) water, silver, a man and outlines (respectively) in the mirage oyster-shell, a stump and a mirror; what was reflected in it was the Witness Consciousness. (Sloka 1.3)
Having been modified, with the preponderance of Sattva, and named Avyakta (the Unmanifest), it (Prakriti) became the power of concealment. What was reflected in it became God Consciousness. He has Maya under His control, is omniscient, is the initial cause of creation, sustenance and dissolution (of the world) and has the form of the sprouting world. He manifests the entire world dissolved in Him. Due to the power of the Karmas of living beings is the (world) spread out like this cloth and due to their exhaustion again is (the world) concealed. In Him alone does the entire world exist as a folded cloth. (1.4)
By God’s command (the Self) with the adjunct of Maya together with the Unmanifest, entering the individual causal body became Prajna. The Prajna is undifferentiated, real, ‘Having conceit-in-deep-sleep’ is the name of Prajna. (Sloka 2.8)

Texts like “Tattvamasi” declare the identity with Brahman of the real Jiva concealed by ignorance and part of the unmanifest; not of the other two, the empirical and the illusory Jivas (in the waking and dream-state). (Sloka 2.9)
The Consciousness reflected in the inner organ participated in the three states. Merged in the states of wakefulness, dream and deep sleep, like a chain of buckets attached to the water wheel, and afflicted, he (the Jiva) is as it were born and dead.
(Slokas 2.10)

9. KatharUdropanishad :

That Brahman, which is without a second, and which is Truth, Knowledge and Happiness, is the object of (real) knowing. The best of the twice-born, who know Brahman residing in the cave which is called the highest heaven, during his transmigratory existence known as ‘MAyA’, ‘ignorance’, etc., attain all desired things instantaneously.
He who realizes his own Self, which is the witness of the power called ignorance and MAyA, knowing ‘I am Brahman alone’ becomes Brahman Itself.
From this Self which is one with Brahman and which is possessed of power (i.e. maya) arose the unmanifest ether (Akasa) like a rope-serpent.
(Slokas 14-17)

10. Maitreyopanishad :

II-1. Then the revered sage Maitreya went to Kailasa. Approaching him (the Lord) he said: ‘Lord, expound to me the secret of the supreme Truth’. The great god said to him:
II-2. The body is said to be the temple; the individual Self (Jiva) is Shiva alone. One should discard the faded flowers in the form of spiritual ignorance and worship God (with the conviction) ‘He and I are one’.
II-3. True knowledge consists of seeing non-different (in all); deep meditation consists of the mind freed from thinking on sensory objects; bathing is the removal of impurity in the mind and cleansing consists of controlling the senses.
II-4. He should imbibe the nectar, Brahman, go about for alms to preserve the body, and becoming devoted to the one (Brahman) live in the solitary place of oneness free from duality. Thus should a wise man spend his life; he alone will attain liberation.


11. Mahopanishad :

This Upanishad says :

NAham Brahmeti sankalpAt sudridham badhyate manah |
Sarvam Brahmeti SankalpAt sudridhanmuchyate manah || 122 ||

==> Considering that “ I am not Brahman” or considering oneself different from Brahman is what binds the mind. “Everything is Brahman alone” ... this resolve liberates the mind.

Aho nu chitram padmotthairbaddhastantubhiradayah |
AvidyAmAna yAvidyA tayA vishvam khilikritam |
Idam tadvajatAm yAtam triNmAtram jagatrayam || 130 ||


By the AvidyA (ignorance) which is unreal, the whole world is affected. It is like by fibres of lotus stems, the mountains have been put into bondage. This world which is (powerless) like a blade of grass, by the influence of AvidyA, has become (powerful) like vajra (Indra'a weapon) in the waking and dreaming states.


OM

anirvan
10 March 2012, 01:56 AM
Namaste anirvan,

Thank you anirvan, for your posting; I can not easily tell from which sect my appreciation of this most beautiful tradition and wisdom comes. I rejoice in your sharing of it, of the infinite; that which grows between prakriti & purusha.

praNAma

mana


Thanks dear Mana, I hope your valuable contribution as supplementary for the complete understanding of this blissful knowledge.

anirvan
10 March 2012, 02:35 AM
[QUOTE=wundermonk;79936]Hello anirvan:

Do you think Samkhya is a realist school or an idealist school of thought?

The reason why I ask is that I believe the Samkhyan categories of evolution of Prakriti is thought to be either cosmogonical or psychological or both by some.

The thing is how can unmanifest prakriti become manifest? In my interpretation, Samkhya is agnostic or anirvachaniya in terms of IF there is an external world outside of the realms of buddhi/manas/ahamkara. The gunas [sattva, rajas and tamas] endow properties or qualities to this anirvachaniya experience.The gunas themselves cannot become dravya [substance]. Samkhya is essentially agnostic on whether a mind-independent dravya exists.


Dear Wundermonk, we can"t analyse all darshanas as separate piece of thought and compare with other pieces.Its complimentary and supplementary
to each.Samkhya is talking about one subject...purusha-prakriti at individual case and accordingly prescribe the way to alleviate sorrow permanently. Vedanta is talking about the bigger picture and prescribe a whole range of solution. Vedanta may not have gone separately to elaborate the chapter again as samkhya was regarded as the preliminary study before proceed into vedanta. Samkhya appears agnostic in the sense they wanted to focus on the given project and then the disciple will be eligible to go advance into vedanta.

This is what i learnt from my Gurudev and he studied same from his guru who is also great vedantin paramhansa from sringeri lineage.


Also, the reflection of purusha on prakriti decides all our experiences. For instance, we humans look at a snake and run away because our experiences are subject to OUR prakritic conditioning. However, how a mongoose reacts when it looks at a snake is different and this can be explained by its prakritic conditioning]

when we look through vedantin view to prakriti...its none other than brahman
which is infinite in all aspect.when this prakriti according to varied amount of sattva act as avidya on individual level will demonstrate different conditioning.

anirvan
10 March 2012, 04:57 AM
Namaste,

[QUOTE]Some more references on MAyA in Upanishads :

[SIZE="3"]6. Kaivalyopanishad :

This Upanishad tells us that under the influence of MAyA, the man considers this body as reality and enjoys sensual pleasures in the waking state. Again, even in the dream state, he enjoys and suffers the pleasures and pains in the imagined Jivaloka. All these vanish in the sushupti (deep sleep) state. This Jiva moves in the three states, the gross, the subtle and the causal which are all the creation of MAyA. When all these three bodies (gross, subtle and the causal) are dissolved, then he enjoys the unbroken bliss.
Ref : Slokas 12 to 14.

7. Atmaprabodhopanishad :


Namaste Devotee and thanks for such invaluable upanishadic verses.

Now I will put few more description about MAYA ...and her mode of action..

when Raja Suratha asked Mahamunu Medhasa,to describe in detail about mahamaya,Rishi explained like this--

"nityeiba sa jaganmurthistayah sarvamidam tatam !
tathapi tat shamutpattih bahudha srutayam mam !!" chandi)

she in eternal,all pervading,unborn,and infinite billions of universe are her body.

"chaitanyat sarvmupannam jagadhetacarachharam!
asti cet kalpaneyam syannasti cedasti chinmayah!!" (sivasahmita)

if we admit the true existence of the universe,then we have to admit that everything has been originated from cit-brahman. but if we deny the existence of the universe,then it implies there is only brahman and no second.

so what is the real solution? is this universe merely illusion? or it has relative existence or as per vaishnava thought its eternally existing? as they ask if its illusion,then why its not absolving after one gets moksha?

Then what is mayavad?is it universally valid or it is a relative conditioning for a advita sadhak to reach that state?

I request the thoughts of members with valid rational to make this debatable question more understandable?

jayaguru

Mana
10 March 2012, 11:56 AM
Namaste anirvan,



so what is the real solution? is this universe merely illusion? or it has relative existence or as per vaishnava thought its eternally existing? as they ask if its illusion,then why its not absolving after one gets moksha?

Then what is mayavad?is it universally valid or it is a relative conditioning for a advita sadhak to reach that state?



Might time be the illusion and the universe real. The illusion is the notion that we are either moving forwards or backwards. The universe opens like a flower, it does not ask why it simply seeks the rays of Brahma.

Might the vibration of matter be real but the creations made of that matter as it folds back upon its self be transitory illusion. In fact there is no forwards or backwards, only the perception of that?

Just as the waves on the ocean are perceived by us, they do not exist out side of our time. time being only a change in state; nothing more. Yet the illusion of that wave is very real; to the point that it shapes the shore turning rock in to pebble and pebble in to sand, yet that shore formation seen in another rate of time is nothing but a wave in its self, so the matter is real at our scale; but sure enough when out side of this time frame and scale there is just a vibration, like that of the wave.

Reality then must relate to scale; I like to think of reality as mass (E=mc²) so it is also energy. Imagine 30000 tonne ship in the port, if I lean upon it briefly, it feels solid; I can push shove and kick and it kicks back as I stub my toe it appears unmovable. However if I lean against it for long enough, with only my body weight; I cause it to move, as it builds momentum and changes direction ...

Just some thoughts and musings, thank you for the thought provoking thread.

praNAma

mana

devotee
10 March 2012, 07:15 PM
Namaste Anirvan,



if we admit the true existence of the universe,then we have to admit that everything has been originated from cit-brahman. but if we deny the existence of the universe,then it implies there is only brahman and no second.

so what is the real solution? is this universe merely illusion? or it has relative existence or as per vaishnava thought its eternally existing? as they ask if its illusion,then why its not absolving after one gets moksha?

Then what is mayavad?is it universally valid or it is a relative conditioning for a advita sadhak to reach that state?

I request the thoughts of members with valid rational to make this debatable question more understandable?


You have asked a very valuable question but there is a caution. The Upanishads and also the Bhagwad Gita tell us that this JnAn yoga is not for everyone and this JnAn to an unprepared mind can be dangerous to him/her.

Those who find Bhakti Yoga suited to their spiritual status should avoid this discussion altogether. I shall tell you what Mahopanishad tells us on this issue :

Aadau ShamdamprAyairguNaih shishyam vishodhayet |
PashchAt sarvamidam Brahman shuddhstavmiti bodhayet || 104||
AjnayAsyArdha prabuddhsya sarvam Brahmaneti vadet |
MahAnarakjAleshu sa tena viniyojitah || 105 ||

At first (the Guru) should purify the shishya (disciple/seeker) by (teaching him) shama-dama (controlling our sense organs and carnal desires) & then only he should teach him that "this all is Brahman and you too are That".

Teaching this to someone who is not knowledgeable and who have not fully developed mind (i.e. not having purified mind/intellect) is like pushing him into MahAnarak (the worst of hells).

What I have written in my posts above is not any MAyAvAd or whatever. It is direct quotes taken from the Upanishads. The ISKCON people derisively call the Advaita VedAnta as "MAyAvAd" and also ShankarA as someone who came to misguide people. That is why I have taken directly from the Upanishads without modifying it anyway so that anyone can see that this so-called MAyAvAd is there in the Upanishads and it is not a figment of imagination of Shankara's mind.

****************

Whether this universe exists or not ? This universe exists but it is not what it is perceived to be by our mind and sense organs. That is why it is called creation of MAyA. It is difficult to accept that this Universe that look so real to us is actually illusory. Why ? Because we are part of this great illusion. Mind which is the cause of this great illusion is trying to run the test of "reality" on this illusory universe ! The thief is acting as the police !

It is like when you see the dream ... within a dream can a dream character ever realise that the dream-world has no real existence ? We are the dream characters of the Cosmic Dream ... until we are awakened, we cannot see the reality, as the man who is sleeping cannot see that the dream was false until he is awakened.

Scientifically, I can tell you the illusory nature of this universe. You imagine a solid iron wall in front of you. You cannot pass through this wall as seemingly it has no void in it. Right ? However, we all know that the atoms are actually hollow with around more than 99.99 % space inside. In fact, the string theory and vibrating field theory suggests that matter is actually illusory and has no real existence. So, the solid iron wall in front of you is actually 100 % or at least 99.99 % space but you don't see the space which makes this Iron wall. Even if you break and keep breaking this wall into pieces you can never ever see the space inside with your eyes. .... And we say that the Iron wall is reality and it is not an illusion !

That is the power of MAyA. I can prove that whatever you see, whatever you hear, whatever you taste and whatever you touch is nothing but illusion ... by giving similar logic from science.

If you are interested, you may like to read my posts no 158,160 and 161 in the link given below :

http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showthread.php?t=846&page=16

OM

anirvan
12 March 2012, 02:41 AM
Thanks MANA and Devotee for wonderful explanations. I have gone through the threads http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showthread.php?t=846&page=16.

All the discussion is centred upon advita nature brahman,but the question is how can we just ignore maya saying it not more than illusion while in my opinion BRAHMAN IS SYNONYMOUS WITH MAYA as far as we look at para vidya as maya as they are eternally undifferentiated.in fact the aim of the op is to discuss theswaroopa/nature of MAYA and its importance in spiritual path and also how a sadhaka should look at her and the reason and validity of saying her as illusion.The reason i am saying this is why as i put few points below...

"nirguna saguna ceti dwidha prokta manishibhih !
saguna ragibhih sevya nirguna tu veragibhih !!" (devibhagabat)

This parambrahmaroopini sat-cit-anand mayee parashakti devi is known as saguna and nirguna among brahmin.worldy oriented human worship her saguna roopa and mumukshu worship her nirguna roopa.

"citstatpadalakshartha cidekaraswaroopini !"" (brahmanda purana)

tat here is referred her as cit.so she is the only citandanda swaroopa.

"viseshaviselingamatralingani gunaparvani!!" (patanjali darsan sadhanapada 19)

All The natures of prakriti remains in 4 states.

1-visesha--- sthula tattva (grosser physical state)--pancikruta pancha bhuta,5 jnanendriya,5 karmendriya (15 tattva)

2-Avishesa---sukhma tattva--(pancha tanmatra,mind/antahkaranam)

3-Lingabastha--aham tattva,mahatattva (also called linga sarira)

4-ALINGABASTHA--Mula prakriti which is cit...who is equivalent term with brahman.we can"t say this illusion as it will be akin to say brahman as illusion.

BG 7th-sloka 4,5-- Krishna says " earth,water,air,ether,fire,mind,intelligent and ahamkar are 8types of nature of my MAYA.this prakritia is INFERIOR...APARA PRAKRITI. Apart from this,i have one higher prakriti called PARA which is responsible for holding the creation.

This PARA-PRAKRITI is in due course in association with purusa becomes Apara-prakriti along the cause-effect relationship line.

This mula or para-prakriti is mahashakti kundalini.she is eternal,VIDYA ,sanatani and ishwari and reason for bondage and moksha.

how one prakriti can be responsible for apparent two fates of a jiva.the anology given is--Just like a beautiful lady becomes the reason of happiness for the husband and reason of sorrow for 2nd wife and reason of hell-delusion for unsuccessful lover. Similarly mahashakti in the form of Vidya and avidya is responsible for bondage and freedom.

Vedanta says Maya is asat,its is imagined upon the adhsthan swaroop brahman.so without the source,maya can"t have separate existence,so maya is asat.But for a sadhaka who worsip brahman as mother has to worship Prakritia
as adhisthan upon which brahman exist. The reason is one can"t worship brahman without prakrita and vice versa. Simply one without other is un-imaginable.

As in vaishnavism,--radha sango yada bhati tada madanmohanah.

Without radha,krishna is no longer madanmohan.

so why is that

1-In working knowledge --maya is real

2-in paramarthika knowledge--its inferior or equivalent to illusion

3-in debate-- sat-asat and anirvachaniya

Any thought?

devotee
12 March 2012, 04:32 AM
Namaste Anirvan,

I would like to point out a few things here :

a) PurANa are authority only to the extent they conform to Vedas (includes VedAnta). So, by quoting PurANas we can't prove anything unless we support it with references from Vedas.

b) Brahman is not synonymous with MAyA ... this will be against VedAnta. Yes, MAyA springs out naturally from Brahman creating the three states of Brahman as I have earlier explained.

c) You said :
Vedanta says Maya is asat,its is imagined upon the adhsthan swaroop brahman.so without the source,maya can have separate existence,so maya is asat.But for a sadhaka who worsip brahman as mother has to worship Prakritia as adhisthan upon which brahman exist. The reason is one can"t worship brahman without prakrita and vice versa. Simply one without other is un-imaginable.

MAyA is Asat from the fourth state which is the untainted state of Brahman i.e. Turiya, otherwise within the three states it is rock solid "real". MAyA can have no separate existence ! You can't see an attribute of a thing without the existence of that thing. This attribute is the property of that the thing. Like, when Carbon is in graphite state of existence, it appears black. So, the black color is imposed upon Carbon in its Graphite state. However, when the same Carbon takes the state of diamond, the black color goes.

What I am trying to explain that MAyA is an inherent property of Brahman in the three states of Brahman. It disappears in the fourth state. Shruti says that the Fourth state is the Self and that has to be known (MAndukya Upanishad), and this state is the real state on which the three states appear and dissolve. The three states have been described as "creation" due to vibration of the Consciousness like when a firebrand is vibrated/moved a number of shapes are created but they don't really exist.

d) You said :

1-In working knowledge --maya is real

2-in paramarthika knowledge--its inferior or equivalent to illusion

You are right. :)

Imho, The third proposition can be slightly improved :
"Anivarchinya means, 'That which cannot be described'. MAyA is Anivarchinya".

OM

anirvan
12 March 2012, 04:57 AM
QUOTE=devotee;]Namaste Anirvan,

What I am trying to explain that MAyA is an inherent property of Brahman in the three states of Brahman. It disappears in the fourth state. Shruti says that the Fourth state is the Self and that has to be known (MAndukya Upanishad), and this state is the real state on which the three states appear and dissolve.

namaste Devotee,

You are absolutely right.but look in a different angel.You told maya is inherent property in lower 3 states.but dissapears in 4th state. But dissapears to where? if one dissapears,then how can it come back again.My point is it is inherent property of Brahman in all states except that its remains unmanifested in 4th state.this is called LAYABHAVA/laya-yoga. But again is there any point of time when this maya is not remain in manifested state.

Again Brahman never stays at any time without its prakriti as totally absent.Its like matter-antimatter state.like alternatively spinning in positive and negative state like in electromagnetic current.

So how can we so bluntly say that prakriti is illusion ans inferior.After all she is the sole responsible for our moksha as brahman is nirguna,actionless. So how asat prakriti can give us sat state--that is moksha???:)

This constant spinning-antispinning movement of that sat elements is the very basis of Leela.thats why in vaishnava darsana,its sin to differentiate between RADHA-KRISHNA.The transient sat form krishna-transient asat form Radah-------this light-darkness game is the sole reason of sristi leela,raasa leela and all form of leela.

So if we outrightly discard this eternally sat-asat game of brahman and solely focus on Brahman alone in sat form,are not we missing the very ESSENCE of the spiritual treasure?:)

kallol
12 March 2012, 06:30 AM
[quote=devotee;79938]Namaste,

if we admit the true existence of the universe,then we have to admit that everything has been originated from cit-brahman. but if we deny the existence of the universe,then it implies there is only brahman and no second.

so what is the real solution? is this universe merely illusion? or it has relative existence or as per vaishnava thought its eternally existing? as they ask if its illusion,then why its not absolving after one gets moksha?

Then what is mayavad?is it universally valid or it is a relative conditioning for a advita sadhak to reach that state?



I get afraid when there is so much text from the scriptures. I admire you all being so much knowledgeable.

My little analysis :

The confusion comes as we are trying to see inside out. Trying to conceive through the 5 senses of the body which by itself are the limitations.

We appreciate only those which we can perceive and not what we cannot. There is a transperant glass, which the eye does not see. But there is a a tiny bit of the glass coagulated to form a speck - we can see that and we get stuck.

As we close down the senses, the known universe cease to exist. If we increase the senses, the known universe becomes part of the whole perceivable bramhan and again cease to exist separately.

So both ways we find that the known universe is a function of the senses we have. Maya is function of the shape and attributes which the brahman manifests through. Brahman is the lowest common denominator of all. Just like gross matter (all types) is out of energy. Similarly all are out of brahman.

Moksha does not have much to do with this perception. Moksha is the state where we indentify ourselves with "I" which is out of unchanging and permanent conciousness and is ever living. The body changes but "I" stays. I remains through sleep, unconciousness, coma and death.

Mayabad is like real who do not use filter to remove the body induced limitations. But for the wise men, it is all brahman.

devotee
12 March 2012, 07:51 AM
Namaste Anirvan,



You are absolutely right.but look in a different angel.You told maya is inherent property in lower 3 states.but dissapears in 4th state. But dissapears to where? if one dissapears,then how can it come back again.My point is it is inherent property of Brahman in all states except that its remains unmanifested in 4th state.this is called LAYABHAVA/laya-yoga. But again is there any point of time when this maya is not remain in manifested state.

Actually, neither Self/Brahman nor MAyA can be described as it is ... because we are trying to understand through mind and this mind has to dissolve for the fourth to be "seen". Self is nothing but mind seeing outwards.

Coming back to your question : I gave you an example of diamond and graphite. Both are pure 100 % carbon. Now where does the blackness of tyhe graphite go when graphite becomes a diamond or where does the sparkle of diamond go when it would be converted into graphite ? So, this question : "Disappears to where ?" is not a valid question. The Carbon has all properties of all isotopes of Carbon and particular properties become manifest depending upon the particular state of Carbon while others are hidden.

Again, this statement that "if one dissapears,then how can it come back again." is not valid. Though I have used the example of Carbon, it is not exactly applicable to Self/Brahman. It is slightly complicated to understand. This false being having false bondage gets falsely liberated ... once liberated, the same being is never deluded. That is the meaning of "MAyA ends" ... but it (MAyA) continues for all other beings.


Again Brahman never stays at any time without its prakriti as totally absent.Its like matter-antimatter state.like alternatively spinning in positive and negative state like in electromagnetic current.

There is no Prakriti in the fourth state of Brahman. It is Nirguna state i.e. without any property which is perceived in Prakriti. It is like the vibration of molecules. As long as the molecules vibrate we get we get various forms and properties of things created due to vibration of molecules (like water changing into ice, liquid water and steam, supre heated steam) ... but there is no such property remaining when the vibrations totally die out that is at Absolute Temperature (only theoretically possible, per science).


So how can we so bluntly say that prakriti is illusion ans inferior.After all she is the sole responsible for our moksha as brahman is nirguna,actionless. So how asat prakriti can give us sat state--that is moksha???:)

In reality there is no being who is bound, there is no bondage and there is no liberation. That is the stand of the Shruti. Brahman is Nirguna but acts by its property of creating three states like dream-world projected by the mind of the sleeping person. So, in fact, there is no action. There is neither Sat nor Asat. These concepts arise only after creation of mind & these words have no meaning in absolute sense.


This constant spinning-antispinning movement of that sat elements is the very basis of Leela.thats why in vaishnava darsana,its sin to differentiate between RADHA-KRISHNA.The transient sat form krishna-transient asat form Radah-------this light-darkness game is the sole reason of sristi leela,raasa leela and all form of leela.

RAdhA is nothing but Prakriti and Krishna is nothing but God-state i.e. the third state of Brahman. Together they create this Leela. In fact, Krishna is Nirguna Brahman too ... and from Him arise all the three states.


So if we outrightly discard this eternally sat-asat game of brahman and solely focus on Brahman alone in sat form,are not we missing the very ESSENCE of the spiritual treasure?:)

Why do we discard MAyA and accept only the Nirguna Brahman ? This is because our thoughts are the vibrations of Consciousness that we are. These thoughts create as they are. So, purification of thoughts is necessary. This Thinking is to be taken very seriously. Your thoughts create and present to you what you strongly believe in. So, the mind has to be fixed on Reality and by VichArA all that is Non-Self i.e. MAyA has to be discarded.

Also, the Self in only the fourth state is free from MAyA. Attaining that state is our goal ... Shruti says so. The deep impressions of MAyA in various births are not easy to wipe out. That is why Meditation, VichArA, listening to Advaitic teachers etc. are necessary.

OM

yajvan
12 March 2012, 03:09 PM
hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

namasté

I'd like to offer the following for one's kind consideration. I am not the final authority on this matter, but give some ideas on this māyā that brings peace to my mind.

māyā , a baseline
What is this māyā ( there are many posts on this subject) ? It is rooted ( √ ) in mā or measuring and this 'yā' is restraining . Yet many say māyā is the notion of illusion. How are these two i.e. illusion and measuring/restraining , connected?

Māyā is the illusion that the Infinite can be measured out -or-restrained. It is the idea that this Infinite Being that we experience as the universe ( and what it contains) is made of parts, finite items, zillions of them, but still finite , within boundaries. It is the boundless measured into the boundaries , this is the illusion of avidya ( ignorance).

I look at an iceberg and see only the top sticking out of the water. I think oh that is all there is to this mountain of ice. Yet I miss the mass of the iceberg which is below the surface - the full structure that only a piece appears above the water. It is the illusion I am seeing the whole thing by only seeing the part.

In ignorance māyā drives individuality; yet one that is fully realized, this māyā becomes the joy of diversity on how many ways this Being expresses itself in Fullness. Then one 'sees' sarvaṁ sarvātamkam or everything is everything else. The unity of creation. In kaśmir śaivism this transformation of māyā (of limits) becomes the play and display of śakti.

another view...
This world (meaning universe) is infinite and whole, yet we see duality everywhere. This whole universe comes from the Supreme (anuttara) some like to call sivabhaṭṭāra, others brahman, and others perhaps viṣṇu.

If the universe is ~illusion~ then from where it comes from is part and parcel part of the illusion too, and this is not possible with the Supreme. The universe comes from the emanation of the Supreme, from That (tad-ekam, That One). To say the universe is an illusion is to suggest 'That' is an illusion. That cannot be so , as this universe is none other then this Being.
But in our ignorance we see duality, differences, due to the blemishes within our self ( some call moha¹). With this ignorance in tact our vision is impaired and we see only diversity. We are within saṅkoca (limitation) that comes with ignorance. But ignorance of what? Our own Self which is the same as the Supreme.

We are the Divine in condensed form. When we come to experience this fully then there is no mis-giving's on what is what.

praṇām
1. moha is bewilderment , perplexity , error. Some like to say it is the darkness or delusion of mind preventing the discernment of truth and leading people to believe in the reality of worldly objects.

anirvan
13 March 2012, 02:19 AM
[QUOTE=devotee;80092]Namaste Anirvan,
Again, this statement that "if one dissapears,then how can it come back again." is not valid. Though I have used the example of Carbon, it is not exactly applicable to Self/Brahman.

I told above statement to point out the eternality of this game of creation.And definitely prakriti is inherent part of brahman even in 4th state,but since its not vibration state,so unmanifested.But its there like a dormant DNA.


Actually, neither Self/Brahman nor MAyA can be described as it is ... because we are trying to understand through mind and this mind has to dissolve for the fourth to be "seen". Self is nothing but mind seeing outwards.
In reality there is no being who is bound, there is no bondage and there is no liberation. creating three states like dream-world projected by the mind of the sleeping person. So, in fact, there is no action. There is neither Sat nor Asat. These concepts arise only after creation of mind & these words have no meaning in absolute sense.

Why do we discard MAyA and accept only the Nirguna Brahman ? This is because our thoughts are the vibrations of Consciousness that we are.


I completely agree with you with all above statements.If we realize that fourth state is some permanent/eternal state,then the arguments is over.But problem is as long as you are in samadhi/turiya,its ok.But then why brahman has never remained in that state ever.why this eternal game is going on.

Will you give your thought regarding status of brahman in turiya/nirguna state? is it in SAKSHI BHAVA(witness) to the leela of creation or some jada/empty state.If carbon is staying in diamond state forever,i am more than happy to form hexagonal bond with :) ,but if carbon is going to decay and expelled me out,i dont want to be carbon again?

anirvan
13 March 2012, 02:27 AM
[
QUOTE=kallol;80090][quote=anirvan;79988]
Maya is function of the shape and attributes which the brahman manifests through. Brahman is the lowest common denominator of all. Just like gross matter (all types) is out of energy. Similarly all are out of brahman.


Namaste Kallol,will you elaborate the red lined meanings?

kallol
13 March 2012, 03:10 AM
"Maya is function of the shape and attributes which the brahman manifests through. Brahman is the lowest common denominator of all. Just like gross matter (all types) is out of energy. Similarly all are out of brahman. "

Namaste Kallol,will you elaborate the red lined meanings?

Dear Anirvan,

There is not much to explain on this. However I will try to elaborate.

As brahman, the facts are beyond our limited perceptions. Say ultrasound waves - we do not perceive but the bats can perceive. So we (laymen) are oblivious of the existence and require additional tools to perceive that.

Similarly there are others. Many of them we can perceive through tools. There are others, which we still cannot.

Now we get interested and attached to something we know and perceive. Say I offer you "Ghaerebir". I am sure before accepting, you will ask "what is that ?" and "why is that ?" and "what does it do ?". So if it is unknown we do not have attachement. If I offer you a camera you will accept as it is known to you.

So our desire and attachments are linked to something we know, something we perceive. Now our perceptions can only be limited to our senses - which brings in the shapes and attributes.

The trasparent water - my eyes cannot see but the froth on the waves - I can see. Though the ingradients are same, the eye can perceive only within certain limits.

Same is the brahman - manifesting and unmanifesting in cycles. Whatever is manifest - we are able to partially sense and our limitations of the desire and attachement are within that boundary.

This is the playground of Maya. This is where we get stuck - it is the Urvashi and Menoka (symbolic).

The lower is the knowledge more is the attachment towards matters which are more perceptible.

The rest - because we cannont sense - remans elusive and beyond our knowledge and thus beyond desire and attachment. Though this is where the TRUTH lies, only the wise people move towards that higher plane of desire and then to desireless.

yajvan
13 March 2012, 03:43 PM
hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

namasté

I find it interesting that no-one has asked why māyā ? Why is it part of the experience ? That is, what role does it play ?

praṇām

devotee
13 March 2012, 10:51 PM
Namaste Anirvan,



I told above statement to point out the eternality of this game of creation.And definitely prakriti is inherent part of brahman even in 4th state,but since its not vibration state,so unmanifested.But its there like a dormant DNA.

OK, I don't think we are talking very different.


If we realize that fourth state is some permanent/eternal state,then the arguments is over.But problem is as long as you are in samadhi/turiya,its ok.But then why brahman has never remained in that state ever.why this eternal game is going on.

You already answered it in the above para. MAyA is essential part of the Brahman & it is beginningless.


Will you give your thought regarding status of brahman in turiya/nirguna state? is it in SAKSHI BHAVA(witness) to the leela of creation or some jada/empty state.

Turiya is always present as the substratum in all the three states. Turiya doesn't convert to any of the three states. Turiya is the canvas on which the three states keep coming and going like cinema on a cinema-screen. Turiya is eternal witness to all the states. It is ShAntam (fully at peace) but it is never dead.

OM

Mana
15 March 2012, 01:19 AM
hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

namasté

I find it interesting that no-one has asked why māyā ? Why is it part of the experience ? That is, what role does it play ?

praṇām

Namaste yajvan,

What an excellent question; I am still pondering!

I have thought that it might be so that the self can recognise the Self. But that is surly its self just mAyA.

Could this be an effort to reproduce?

Could this be part of an infinite need to be in continual motion, like the surface of a liquid bound by the confines of spacial laws and limits?

The result of the motion of the spiral arm of the galaxy, a friction or movement in AkAsha; to make time.

I should love to hear your wisdom, knowledge any thoughts on this matter ...

praNAma

mana

anirvan
15 March 2012, 02:54 AM
hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

namasté

I find it interesting that no-one has asked why māyā ? Why is it part of the experience ? That is, what role does it play ?

praṇām

Thanks for posing the question,actually i wanted to a post answering this exactly this.

"Sa maya palini-shaktih sristisamharkarini "!! (jnana sankalini tantra)

The power of God engaged in the process of creating-sustaining the jagat is called Maya/prakriti.

"Sa va etasya sangsrustvuh shaktis sadasadatmika !
maya nama mahabhaga jayedam nirmame bibhuh "!! (bhagavatam 3/5/25)

The meaning is same as above.

"Matasyaam shaktyatmana pralaye sarvam jagat,srustow vyaktim yateeti maya "!!

Ma = destruction/closing up ,YA= delimitation /induvidualization

so the mahatattva who is maya ,is the power for Avidya in Delimitation and struction of the duality.

Now I will discuss the exact role of Maya in this illusion/delusion.

The major two asad nature of maya are ABARANA SHAKTI AND VIKSHEPA SHAKTI (perturbation" or "disturbance).

Avarana shakti ( enveloping power)-= the power of enveloping jivatma with subtle body/ desire body/kamana maya sarira.Infact it is very earliest reason of creating jivatma.

The ego enabled avidya always induces desire in jivatma.This very desire creates the subtle body/kamana maya sarira.This desire body is actually become the sukhma sarira of jiva.The prana sustaining this subtle body is DEHI/Jivatma. The physical body is the instrument of enjoyment/suffering of this jivatma. The subtle body act as prison of jivatma,and destruction of this body frees the jiva from sufferings.

Chapter 3. Karma-yoga
TEXT 38

dhumenavriyate vahnir
yathadarso malena ca
yatholbenavrto garbhas
tatha tenedam avrtam

SYNONYMS

dhumena--by smoke; avriyate--covered; vahnih--fire; yatha--just as; adarsah--mirror; malena--by dust; ca--also; yatha--just as; ulbena--by the womb; avrtah--is covered; garbhah--embryo; tatha--so; tena--by that lust; idam--this; avrtam--is covered.
TRANSLATION

As fire is covered by smoke, as a mirror is covered by dust, or as the embryo is covered by the womb, similarly, the living entity is covered by different degrees of this lust.

TEXT 39

avrtam jnanam etena
jnanino nitya-vairina
kama-rupena kaunteya
duspurenanalena ca

SYNONYMS

avrtam--covered; jnanam--pure consciousness; etena--by this; jnaninah--of the knower; nitya-vairina--eternal enemy; kama-rupena--in the form of lust; kaunteya--O son of Kunti; duspurena--never to be satisfied; analena--by the fire; ca--also.
TRANSLATION

Thus, a man's pure consciousness is covered by his eternal enemy in the form of lust, which is never satisfied and which burns like fire.

This envelope will diminish the sattvikansha of jiva.Under this asad kamanamayee avidya,jivatma posses EGO and think himself as the doer.The AVARANA detach the Jivatma from the all pervading Ishwar consciousness.This false EGO OF DOER-ship keeps the jivatma under wrap/cover from God.

The FALSE VISION/PERCEPTION arise out of this avarana shakti,gives rise to VIKSHEPA SHAKTI.Vikshepa means perturbation or disturbances.This false perceptive knowledge projects jivatma"s own false perception on the objects and percieves this illusory world.Otherwise the the world is undifferentiated Brahman maya.

There is a unique kind of relationship between perception of jiva and the objects of undifferentiated from brahman. According to that relationship,jiva perceive a perticular form.This is called ROOPA PARINAM OF MAYA.For example a beautiful lady attracta a man,not a male donkey as only a donkey can attract a male donkey.

The forms of the universe is not created by Brahman,but its imagination of jivatma.Its like dreaming.The moment the dreams breaks,this false perceptive world dissapears at once.

Below link clarifies extensively this vikshepa shakti.
http://www.swami-krishnananda.org/light/light_09.html

kallol
15 March 2012, 08:00 AM
hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

namasté

I find it interesting that no-one has asked why māyā ? Why is it part of the experience ? That is, what role does it play ?

praṇām

My take :

1. Maya by itself is non-existent at the highest level as everything there is TRUTH - unmanifested and stable brahman.

2. Maya's existence starts with the advent of the manifestation. It is the starting point of shape, size, attributes. The highest intensity is at the highest evolution level.

3. Again maya is a product of mind - which works through bodies and the senses related to it. It recognises and appreciates only what it can perceive through these senses. The whole of today's science is proof of this. This has made people more matter focused and matter attached.

4. So the maya is non existent at the highest level. At levels of wise people it is see through. As we go lower it becomes opaque.

yajvan
15 March 2012, 12:04 PM
hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

namasté


I find it interesting that no-one has asked why māyā ? Why is it part of the experience ? That is, what role does it play ?
Many have posted some relevent and excellent insights on this question... it is good we ponder this.

Without getting too technical let me offer this point of view which rests in the mālinīvijayottaratantra (1.24-1.26) . Being, has an urge to experience. This requires something to experience. It is for this that the vehicle of māyā creates diversity of the universe... items of experience. It is this urge to seek experience that drives this diversity of this universe.
We are fortunate as we are 1 of the 7 agents for this experience to occur (some call pramātṛ or saptapramātṛ for all 7 agents). This suggests it is not just 'us' that is experiencing the universe , tattva's and māyā , but others also that are not part of the human condition.

Now that said, it is the ~general~ conclusion that māyā is in some way bad. In ignorance this could be the case, yet in enlightenment it is the joy of diversity seen though the eyes of unity. The snake is revealed as only rope.


praṇām

brahman
24 May 2012, 03:58 AM
hariḥ oṁ

Now that said, it is the ~general~ conclusion that māyā is in some way bad. In ignorance this could be the case, yet in enlightenment it is the joy of diversity seen though the eyes of unity. The snake is revealed as only rope.

praṇām





Dear Memebrs,

This beautiful statement quoted above on the ‘Vision of Maya’ cannot be bettered, as the Lord himself emphasizes the grandness of ‘Unitive Yogic Reasoning’ where intuition comes into play, rather than remaining merely logical in a factual manner.



nāsato vidyate bhāvo : nābhāvo vidyate sataḥ : ubhayor api dṛṣṭo 'ntas :tv anayos tattva-darśibhiḥ

The unReal cannot manifest itself, the Real never ceases to manifest either; the inherent truth of these Two has thus been perceived by the seers of Absolute Reality. BG 2:16


An existence has to exist in an existent. An existent doesn’t not exist without an existence.

The world has no existence apart from the One Reality, and this Reality cannot exist other than in the form of this world. The state of being inseparable is the secret signified by the words “ anayoḥ ubhayoḥ api antaḥ – the inherent truth of the TWO”

Inseparably united are Sat and Bhava, Dehin and Dehi, Gold and Ornaments and the like....


Yajvan Wrote:

Māyā is the illusion that the Infinite can be measured out -or-restrained. It is the idea that this Infinite Being that we experience as the universe ( and what it contains) is made of parts, finite items, zillions of them, but still finite , within boundaries. It is the boundless measured into the boundaries , this is the illusion of avidya ( ignorance).

Exactly; Infinite Gold has been measured into finite Ornaments, actually exist is Gold alone, Ornaments are mere mental images superimposed on the Sat-Gold. At the same time the Gold has to exist in some or the other form.

As in the case of Gold and Ornaments, Gold and Ornament are inseparably one and need no uniting nor merging into. What separate them as Gold and Ornament is Maya alone, the erroneous enigmatic element in the emergence of the many from the One.

Those who are awake to this hidden aspect of teaching are to be considered as the seers of Absolute Reality. Love:)



Pondering Recommended

Red_Drag0n
21 December 2018, 08:15 AM
The first manifestation is called Mahatattva,2nd ahamtattva,3rd senses & paramanu(atom) and 4th jagat.

Hello Anirvan, here you've said that the 3rd manifestation are the senses. Whose senses? The jagat has yet to be manifested and without the jagat there can be no jivas. So whose senses are we talking about?


This prakriti is according to naming two types.1-Avidya,2 Maya.
Combined with the reflection of sat-cit-anand brahman,in the perfect balanced state of sattva-rajah-tamah guna,the PRAKRITI acquire two forms named AVIDYA and MAYA...
Again prakriti,maya,avidya and Ignorance all four belongs to one definition and same.

In the last sentence you've said four, when there are actually three (Prakriti, maya and avidya).
You've called ignorance the fourth, when in fact avidya IS ignorance.



In Satyaloka,the formless mahajyoti swaroop parambrahma embeds himself within his own-mahajyotiswaroopa maya like a Peas seeds and remains in his sat state.
As in a peas seed, two half stays united along with the germ bud wrapped with the skin, similarly the prakriti-purusha are two half of the seeds ,remains along with the brahma-chaitanya(germ bud) and the skin as Maya.

The prakrita-purusha/siva-shakti burst open from the skin of maya and create the Universe/jiva-jagat.

Here you've said that Nirakara brahman dwells in satyaloka. But as per Shankara's teachings (advaita) Brahman is infinite, omnipresent and all pervasive. It cannot dwell in a particular loka called satyaloka or brahmaloka. Can you explain to me what is meant by satyaloka here.


Ahamkar is two types.ONE is effected from PARAHANTA-form-sat who is none other than PRAKRITI(unmanifest). one is effected from MAHATTVA.

Whose Ahamkar/ego are we talking about?
And what is Parahanta, Mahat-Tattva, and Sat-Asatmika shakti?
You haven't given a clear description of these things. It would be great if you do. Thanks.

Dutta
23 December 2018, 12:21 AM
Dear Memebrs,

This beautiful statement quoted above on the �Vision of Maya� cannot be bettered, as the Lord himself emphasizes the grandness of �Unitive Yogic Reasoning� where intuition comes into play, rather than remaining merely logical in a factual manner.



nÄsato vidyate bhÄvo : nÄbhÄvo vidyate sataḥ : ubhayor api dṛṣṭo 'ntas :tv anayos tattva-darÅ›ibhiḥ

The unReal cannot manifest itself, the Real never ceases to manifest either; the inherent truth of these Two has thus been perceived by the seers of Absolute Reality. BG 2:16


An existence has to exist in an existent. An existent doesn�t not exist without an existence.

The world has no existence apart from the One Reality, and this Reality cannot exist other than in the form of this world. The state of being inseparable is the secret signified by the words � anayoḥ ubhayoḥ api antaḥ � the inherent truth of the TWO�

Inseparably united are Sat and Bhava, Dehin and Dehi, Gold and Ornaments and the like....


Yajvan Wrote:


Exactly; Infinite Gold has been measured into finite Ornaments, actually exist is Gold alone, Ornaments are mere mental images superimposed on the Sat-Gold. At the same time the Gold has to exist in some or the other form.

As in the case of Gold and Ornaments, Gold and Ornament are inseparably one and need no uniting nor merging into. What separate them as Gold and Ornament is Maya alone, the erroneous enigmatic element in the emergence of the many from the One.

Those who are awake to this hidden aspect of teaching are to be considered as the seers of Absolute Reality. Love:)






Pondering Recommended
namaste
wonderful
and to my view maya is delusion , I mean in medical term illusion in physical form is called delusion and illusion is moha of course .
yada te moha-kalilam .. Gita says when the mire of moha means maya .
only then one see god .. sada pasyanti suryah vishnoh yat Paramam padam .
coming to ch 2 of Gita only one can amratvaya kalpate whose buddhih samadhau vidyate .
and all this is possible when moha the attribute of maya disappears .
jai Sri Krsna