States of existence [Archive] - Hindu Dharma Forums

kallol

21 March 2012, 10:11 PM

Taking a cue out of the "Thoughtful Article" thread, I was having extrapolated thoughts running through my mind. I have put the same in that thread also but again the visibility might have been lost, so started a new thread.

Let me share.

1. Matter is acted upon by energies (mechanical, electrical, electromagnetics, chemical, nuclear, etc) which might be manifested in different forms. So energy is the driver of the matter.

Energy is subtler than matter. This becomes the base of my thoughts

2. Now Energy becomes matter through, as we know, big bang. So energy must have been acted upon. We know it is out of God's mind, which again is the culmination of all minds. Can I assume that mind is driver of the energy ?

So should I assume that mind is subtler than energy ?

3. Again the driver of the mind is consciousness. Does it mean that consciousness is subtler than mind ?

So the flow is matter - energy - minds - consciousness in opposite i.e.

consciousness to mind to energy to matter.

4. Again energy only converts to matter so does it mean consciousnes converts to mind, mind to energy and then energy to matter ? though all should be partial conversions only.

5. Now this, if true, triggers further thoughts. Matters unmanifests unto energy, energy to minds, minds to consciousness. Every stage the attributes are lost unto the higher level where the essence and abstracts are retained. However the individual layers remain in the higher layer in potential state.

6. Now this should mean that the individual minds (and thereby God's mind) get unmanifested unto consciousness. So the next creation (of miinds, energy and matter) will be out of that essence.

7. Though consciousness does not have direct link with matter but then the whole of the chain is out of conciousness. That also brings the notion that everything is nothing but consciousness.

8. Are these the 4 states or the 4th state is beyond this i.e. beyond consciousness. If so how it is defined ? Does it mean that consciousness is out of something ? If yes what is that ?

devotee

21 March 2012, 10:46 PM

Namaste Kallol,

A good analysis ! However, the process of conversion needn't be linear i.e. from Consciousness to Mind, Mind to Energy and from Energy to Matter, though it appears to be a logical route. Moreover, there are not only the above four states ... there are others too.

In Varanasi, I know one God-realised Vaishnava saint (Sri Sikar Baba). One of our friends had organised 4-day Ramcharitmanas PATh and Pravachan & Baba was one of the main invitees there. In fact, the whole thing was done under his blessings. Whenever I meet him, I discuss something on AadhyAtma. This time, he touched upon this issue. According to him, Chit or Consciousness is the last thing ... there is nothing beyond Pure Consciousness to be known which is all bliss and peace.

However, Turiya as talked about in the Upanishads is beyond Consciousness but it cannot be "known", as the 'knowledge' at that state is self-immolating.

OM

kallol

21 March 2012, 10:53 PM

Thanks Devoteeji. I am sure you are right. It may not be not linear or sequential conversion in many cases.

However if this is true and as per the scriptures, then I need to revisit all of my knowledge to revalidate them.

Thanks for triggering in earlier thread, that all is conciousness.

Hope it will keep me busy for sometime.

sm78

22 March 2012, 03:26 AM

1. Matter is acted upon by energies (mechanical, electrical, electromagnetics, chemical, nuclear, etc) which might be manifested in different forms. So energy is the driver of the matter.

Energy is subtler than matter. This becomes the base of my thoughts.

2. Now Energy becomes matter through, as we know, big bang. So energy must have been acted upon. We know it is out of God's mind, which again is the culmination of all minds. Can I assume that mind is driver of the energy ?

So should I assume that mind is subtler than energy ?

3. Again the driver of the mind is consciousness. Does it mean that consciousness is subtler than mind ?

So the flow is matter - energy - minds - consciousness in opposite i.e.

consciousness to mind to energy to matter.

4. Again energy only converts to matter so does it mean consciousnes converts to mind, mind to energy and then energy to matter ? though all should be partial conversions only.

5. Now this, if true, triggers further thoughts. Matters unmanifests unto energy, energy to minds, minds to consciousness. Every stage the attributes are lost unto the higher level where the essence and abstracts are retained. However the individual layers remain in the higher layer in potential state.

6. Now this should mean that the individual minds (and thereby God's mind) get unmanifested unto consciousness. So the next creation (of miinds, energy and matter) will be out of that essence.

7. Though consciousness does not have direct link with matter but then the whole of the chain is out of conciousness. That also brings the notion that everything is nothing but consciousness.

8. Are these the 4 states or the 4th state is beyond this i.e. beyond consciousness. If so how it is defined ? Does it mean that consciousness is out of something ? If yes what is that ?

In Indian monistic philosophies consciousness is everything and energy or prana is its activity in manifested universe. Prana flows through the universe from its highest to lowest levels. The manifested universe is a graded existence which consists of mind, matter etc - but in essence, consciousness only.

The energy you are talking about is another form of mater, its grossness or sublimity w.r.t to matter is best left to physicists, as also speculations on big bang. You will be hard pressed to prove energy comes from mind and I have never heard any mystic experience which says so. On top of that you confuse energy with material energy or energy in matter. All this becomes a hoch-potch of thoughts. Prana I believe is fundamental and awareness itself flows through matter, mind and beyond based on prana. And awareness is Cit.

kallol

22 March 2012, 04:46 AM

In Indian monistic philosophies consciousness is everything and energy or prana is its activity in manifested universe. Prana flows through the universe from its highest to lowest levels. The manifested universe is a graded existence which consists of mind, matter etc - but in essence, consciousness only.

The energy you are talking about is another form of mater, its grossness or sublimity w.r.t to matter is best left to physicists, as also speculations on big bang. You will be hard pressed to prove energy comes from mind and I have never heard any mystic experience which says so. On top of that you confuse energy with material energy or energy in matter. All this becomes a hoch-potch of thoughts. Prana I believe is fundamental and awareness itself flows through matter, mind and beyond based on prana. And awareness is Cit.

Dear SMji,

You are lucky to be already there either through belief or through analysis. I am trying to get there.

Quality I lack is just believing. My mind always tries to analyse and get to the bottom of the theory.

I accept that there will be many mistakes and misconceptions - which I take as the learning process.

The end is known, I am trying to figure out the path. Once done, I can live that theory and not believe only.

Thanks for again reminding me the end - that all are out of prana.

devotee

22 March 2012, 06:03 AM

Namaste SM,

The energy you are talking about is another form of mater, its grossness or sublimity w.r.t to matter is best left to physicists, as also speculations on big bang.

Essentially, energy and matter are one and the same thing, as either can be converted into the other. I am unable to understand what you want to say and why there is an objection. Can you specify ?

You will be hard pressed to prove energy comes from mind and I have never heard any mystic experience which says so.

Here, mind should not be confused with brain. Brain is an instrument through which mind operates in living beings. Mind is the Self-turned-outward which projects this world, so says Ramana Maharishi. So, everything perceived in this universe comes from Mind alone.

On top of that you confuse energy with material energy or energy in matter.

What do you mean by material energy ? How is one form of energy essentially different from any other type of energy ? Scientifically, all forms of energy are essentially same as any form of energy can be converted into any other form of energy.

All this becomes a hoch-potch of thoughts. Prana I believe is fundamental and awareness itself flows through matter, mind and beyond based on prana. And awareness is Cit.

Is the PrANa in a piece of stone ? Or is it there in a dead body ?

OM

sm78

22 March 2012, 07:53 AM

Without going into so many words, I simply mean to say that "energy" who is referred to as shakti in our philosophies is much more fundamental than mind. World is not perceived by the mind, but simply given a shape using the 5 jnanendriyas. In fact in a more technically correct definition, mind just creates a memory out of experience created by the jnanendriyas. But perception or awareness is much more fine and it can exist simply in iteslf without mind or sense as sadashiva. Prana is not a pebble nor the mere physical breath, but shakti in the manifested universe which flows through all its levels.

I believe energy coming out of mind is a misconception which defies experience, common sense and scientific observation, and in the OP energy was only discussed as the one transformed from matter which is not the definition I use. That energy from matter is just a form of matter.

But I now realize to follow vedantic advaita or buddhism one may not have much choice but to believe all experience, matter and energy etc are all created from mind. So be it.

devotee

22 March 2012, 11:09 AM

Namaste SM,

Without going into so many words, I simply mean to say that "energy" who is referred to as shakti in our philosophies is much more fundamental than mind.

I don't think till now we have mentioned "Shakti" anywhere in this thread until you posted above. So, how you assert that "Energy" meant "shakti" in this discussion. Again, how do you say that Shakti and energy are completely different, is not clear.

World is not perceived by the mind, but simply given a shape using the 5 jnanendriyas. In fact in a more technically correct definition, mind just creates a memory out of experience created by the jnanendriyas.

If world is not perceived by mind, then who/what perceives the world ? Can the Jnanedriyas work in absence of mind ? What are Jnanedriyas in absence of mind ? Why do you not hear a sound even when there is noise when you are sleeping ? How do you perceive things in a dream when your Jnanedriyas are inactive ?

But perception or awareness is much more fine and it can exist simply in iteslf without mind or sense as sadashiva.

If you define perception as awareness, yes, Awareness or Consciousness can just exist by itself.

Prana is not a pebble nor the mere physical breath, but shakti in the manifested universe which flows through all its levels.

PraNa has been described in scriptures as Vital Force ( & also physical breath). However, your use of PrANa is in a wider sense and imho, use of Consciousness might be a better option.

I believe energy coming out of mind is a misconception which defies experience, common sense and scientific observation, and in the OP energy was only discussed as the one transformed from matter which is not the definition I use. That energy from matter is just a form of matter.

What is mind ? Is it not Consciousness looking outwards ? Don't the scriptures tell us that the whole creation is just the vibration of the Consciousness ?

Have you seen some accomplished yogi creating something out of thin air by using his yogic powers ? I have seen it and I can assert that it was not a stage-managed magic or trick. You may like to believe or not, it is upto you. Your thoughts can create anything whatever you like, if you acquire sufficient yogic powers. But anyway, I can't and won't force you to accept it as I cannot show it to you. I don't have such powers.

But I now realize to follow vedantic advaita or buddhism one may not have much choice but to believe all experience, matter and energy etc are all created from mind. So be it.

My dear friend, you must accept only what you experience that is what Buddhism and Advaita Vedanta says. All scriptures and sayings of the teachers are only the fingers pointing to the moon (in words of Wei-wu-Wei) and not the moon itself. This is the only path which puts a lot of stress on experiencing the Truth by the seeker Himself. Everything else is secondary ... your journey is not successful until you experience it yourself.

I will tell you a story on this :

Swami Vivekananda was highly skeptical of Advaita even after he became a disciple of Ramkrishna. So, one day he was joking with his friends, "I don't know how to believe this ? How can we believe that this chair, this tea-cup and this tea-plate etc. are all Brahman ? It is rubbish !". Incidently, Ramkrishna was passing through by the side of that room where they were all making fun of Advaita. At some other time he mentioned this and said, "He will believe this when he himself experiences it all one day". ... and the day came when Swami Vivekananda experienced all this.

So, there is nothing like, "No Option but" in Advaita SAdhanA ... experience is the most important thing here. Have you heard this statement in Buddhism, "If you see Buddha, Kill Buddha" ? This statement simply underscores the importance of individual experience over everything that scriptures say or even whatever the teachers say. The Truth reveals itself to the seeker in the manner that there is no trace of doubts left.

OM

NayaSurya

22 March 2012, 12:33 PM

There are only small things i can contribute here.

But, i have seen this world not with these eyes. i can do this when deeply meditating. The first time it happened i thought my eyes had popped open. So the next few times i put mask on...and could still see the whole room.

Secondly, my own mother come, after losing her body and show me visions of her home and the things being done, all correct. We can perceive this realm without flesh and blood eyes.

Thirdly, when sleeping...i hear everything. It's unfortunate but very true. If you play a movie beside me, i will watch this movie in my sleep. One time, a very dear doctor would come with the nurse into ICU. He was a tremendous talent, a Laotian surgeon. When I would be asleep he would come quietly in the darkness into my clients room. I would be up and answering his questions without being fully awake, even helping them with certain procedures. He took me aside and say..."in all my life i never meet one as you who can speak to me so clearly, yet be so clearly not awake. The nurse agreed. (Wanted to add, the private nurses were ordered to sleep when their father slept so that we did not become tired by 12 hours shifts in the wee hours of night. Didn't want folks to think i was slacking:P)

I am not sure if because i can do this, i was good candidate for watching over the dying. Or if by necessity, i came to be this way.

But, as a child, i never used an alarm clock. I would simply repeat the time i need to be awake in my head a few times and it worked every time. What portion of me was keeping time? It's the aware part i think.

I believe a highly functioning Portion here, very nearly not here...could manifest things.

Do not we do this upon a smaller scale all the time? We think something...think it very much. Suddenly, this thing fall into our lap?

Yes, we did not create the item, because we are not as highly functioning using the tool/body to the utmost degree. But, we did manifest the circumstance. And that is pretty darn good for just normal folks i think!:p

With all of this being said, from the fool girl and her experience, i know it is never enough to make others believe, unless they experience and this is fine. I am not swami, just mother...and so not here to help others achieve such states. My goal is to help with mundane aspects.

I believe that, from my experience this realm seems to be manifested energy, upon its own field. It's as real as you or I. Solid to touch. When we leave here...we no longer are solid in this way. I have put my hand through a beautiful orbish being which came wandering into my room. It reacted to me, (It immediately flew up and disappeared) but my hand went right through it.

The mind is just some empty computer, we fill it with our whole world.
It does not create the apple...it observe, record and log the apple. The body is a tool to help us observe, record and log this journey we are taking. The Being inside, is witness...and participant with the help of this body tool.

As an astronaut on the moon would use a suit to interact with the surface. So too our bodies do the same. The moon is still real...despite our need for a suit to be upon it.

Maya3

22 March 2012, 07:57 PM

1. Matter is acted upon by energies (mechanical, electrical, electromagnetics, chemical, nuclear, etc) which might be manifested in different forms. So energy is the driver of the matter.

Energy is subtler than matter. This becomes the base of my thoughts

If I understand you right, I think so. You are not really your mind, your mind is what the real you is using to live in this body.

2. Now Energy becomes matter through, as we know, big bang. So energy must have been acted upon. We know it is out of God's mind, which again is the culmination of all minds. Can I assume that mind is driver of the energy ?

This is THE big question, God's mind would be the driver. But God's mind... isn't God beyond the mind? Using just pure consciousness.
Maybe the consciousness of this mind came into being during the big bang? Maybe "IT" lay dormant as pure energy before it separated and spread out?
Or maybe it was aware? I wish I knew for sure.

So should I assume that mind is subtler than energy ?

Don't we use the energy to fuel the mind? Without it the brain could not create a mind. When we are in deep meditation, it is not really the mind that is active (at least we try to make it less active)

3. Again the driver of the mind is consciousness. Does it mean that consciousness is subtler than mind ?

I think so.

So the flow is matter - energy - minds - consciousness in opposite i.e.

consciousness to mind to energy to matter.

If I'm right that before the big bang there was dense contained awareness, then that was dense contained Matter, then the energy spread out and whatever was manifested became aware of itself (or aware of the matter, bodies etc. (not aware of itself as in Self Realization)...
I get a little confused here? I'm not sure if I can put it into words.

4. Again energy only converts to matter so does it mean consciousnes converts to mind, mind to energy and then energy to matter ? though all should be partial conversions only.

I think so. This is chewy, I love that you are posting these questions, but I'm probably not the right person to answer them.

5. Now this, if true, triggers further thoughts. Matters unmanifests unto energy, energy to minds, minds to consciousness. Every stage the attributes are lost unto the higher level where the essence and abstracts are retained. However the individual layers remain in the higher layer in potential state.

I think so.

6. Now this should mean that the individual minds (and thereby God's mind) get unmanifested unto consciousness. So the next creation (of miinds, energy and matter) will be out of that essence.

Yes, but we forget this. We get caught up in our stuff, and don't see our true Selves.

7. Though consciousness does not have direct link with matter but then the whole of the chain is out of conciousness. That also brings the notion that everything is nothing but consciousness.

It is. I always think of it as in the Matrix movie when Keenu Reeves suddenly sees that everything is just zeros.

8. Are these the 4 states or the 4th state is beyond this i.e. beyond consciousness. If so how it is defined ? Does it mean that consciousness is out of something ? If yes what is that ?[/FONT][/COLOR]

I don't know. I wish I could answer it. All I can say without being too technical is Tat Tvam Asi (I am That)

Maya

devotee

22 March 2012, 09:31 PM

Namaste Naya,

But, i have seen this world not with these eyes. i can do this when deeply meditating. The first time it happened i thought my eyes had popped open. So the next few times i put mask on...and could still see the whole room.

It is highly astonishing but not impossible. The mind that sees and experiences is both within and without. That is why the Yogis can see what is happening at a great distance or as you say with their eyes closed.

Secondly, my own mother come, after losing her body and show me visions of her home and the things being done, all correct. We can perceive this realm without flesh and blood eyes.

This is has been very difficult for me ... as once gone, I have never ever felt that the person gone has come to me. I feel there are some people who can "feel" such things better than others. My elder brother too claims that he sometimes sees some near and dear ones who left us. ... I can't say anything on this issue.

Thirdly, when sleeping...i hear everything. It's unfortunate but very true. If you play a movie beside me, i will watch this movie in my sleep. One time, a very dear doctor would come with the nurse into ICU. He was a tremendous talent, a Laotian surgeon. When I would be asleep he would come quietly in the darkness into my clients room. I would be up and answering his questions without being fully awake, even helping them with certain procedures. He took me aside and say..."in all my life i never meet one as you who can speak to me so clearly, yet be so clearly not awake. The nurse agreed.

Amazing !

But, as a child, i never used an alarm clock. I would simply repeat the time i need to be awake in my head a few times and it worked every time. What portion of me was keeping time? It's the aware part i think.

My elder brother claims this too. So, it must be possible. I for myself always use an alarm-clock ... it can be risky if the above tactics fails !

OM

NayaSurya

22 March 2012, 10:21 PM

As my age has creeped up, i can not trust my inner alarm either. Too many count on me to get them up. We have four alarms which go off every morning at around 5:30 AM

When i told my husband tonight about this thread he laughed and said it was so many babies which made me able to listen while sleeping.:p

At your Beloved Feet, Devotee...for not thinking the above things seem silly. You never hear me speak of them on here too much...i don't feel they are anything super. But, it is good also to hear others have same experiences.

I wanted to also add. When i see the room sometimes when my eyes are closed during meditation. The room could be pitch black and yet when i see it...it's a dim twilight, not totally dark as it is in real life. One time when this happened i decided to try to get my hand to move (they don't work while i am like this) anyway...after many moment i was able to move my hand a bit and wave it in front of my face and i saw my hand...back lit by this twilight lighting. Of course...moving my hand caused the rest of me to come up and...so it was only a moment before the image faded and i had to restart...because moving my body brings me up and out of that. But, for another who has had this experience, it will tell you that i am speaking also from true experience.

kallol

23 March 2012, 12:49 AM

Dear NS,

As usual amazing. Unfortuantely for most of the people with special mind to use this body extraordinarily, the ego spoils the opportunity.

It is remarkable that you could see through this special capability and appreciate the higher science and God's touch.

Dear Maya,

As I understand, God, in advaita, is all inclusive though the nature is consciousness. He is everthing matter or energy or mind or consciousness.

The minds of lower forms contribute towards and create the minds of higher forms. The cell of the body to organs of body to body to society to country to world towards God. This resultant vibration becomes the source for the creation.

The constant fluctuations we have in mind are the vibrations and energy waves. The frequency, wavelength and quality varies with person to person, creature to creature. This is like the scenario in ocean. Small waves, big waves, different frequencies, different nature, - all together - constantly churning (Shiva's cosmic dance) and sometimes due to this a clash of waves and a bigger wave with froth (visible universe) is created.

The world of physical entity like the visible universe, the invisible physcical entity like energy, the subtle matter and the consciousness are all different - playing on each other and influencing each other at the same time.

Consciousness being the purest form does not get polluted or changed (properties) or influenced (as it is the source) but others get affected in their qualities and attributes.

The theory is getting clearer. It requires some more analysis.

Mana

23 March 2012, 02:13 AM

Namaste kallol, all,

Thank you kallol for sharing your thoughts. If I might humbly add some thought to your thread; it would appear that we differ somewhat in our understanding of nature or prakriti.

I shall share a few thoughts; you are, of course, free to dissmiss or absorb as you see fit.

1. Matter is acted upon by energies (mechanical, electrical, electromagnetics, chemical, nuclear, etc) which might be manifested in different forms. So energy is the driver of the matter.

Energy is subtler than matter. This becomes the base of my thoughtsTo my mind your starting posture is not correct, this is of course just my opinion; the difference in thought being that, to my mind, matter is energy. This has been demonstrated by the famous equation "E=mc²" and the subsequent application of.

I like to think of matter as a vibration of energy, different elements being made by different frequencies of vibration; matter is in effect, sound.

Brahman is the whisperer of that sound upon prakriti, by way of the guna, which can be viewed, in effect, as the dimensions of the space in which said energy vibrates.

2. Now Energy becomes matter through, as we know, big bang. So energy must have been acted upon. We know it is out of God's mind, which again is the culmination of all minds. Can I assume that mind is driver of the energy ?

So should I assume that mind is subtler than energy ?Energy is made into matter by stars; also by black holes in the form of hawking radiation. Energy is continually bubbling into and out of existence in the vacuum, or what is better described as; either. This is the underlying principle of hawking radiation.

Mind can be carried upon energy, I like to visualise this as a fractal boundary. One infinite boundary, which exists between prakriti and purusha. If purusha is the energy of conciousness, mind is a gross form of that energy which requires the correct formation of prakriti and of course prana, in order to manifest within material vibration. This to my mind, is clearly fractal in nature, as is the universe (just visualise the spirals of a cauliflowers arrangement).

From this postulate; we can zoom in to different areas of the model, to derive other tatvas.

3. Again the driver of the mind is consciousness. Does it mean that consciousness is subtler than mind ?

So the flow is matter - energy - minds - consciousness in opposite i.e.

consciousness to mind to energy to matter. Can we not also say that conciousness is driven by manas (mind and heart)?

I-ness is very subtile!

4. Again energy only converts to matter so does it mean consciousnes converts to mind, mind to energy and then energy to matter ? though all should be partial conversions only.

Energy is matter, the key here is in realising that energy vibrates in different dimensions and at different frequencies, those of matter are the guna; they create an infinite boundary with those of conciousness. The mind is constructed of all our sensory organs of action, cognition and subtitle elements. These all go into forming the elements of mAyA and all that she entails.

5. Now this, if true, triggers further thoughts. Matters unmanifests unto energy, energy to minds, minds to consciousness. Every stage the attributes are lost unto the higher level where the essence and abstracts are retained. However the individual layers remain in the higher layer in potential state.

6. Now this should mean that the individual minds (and thereby God's mind) get unmanifested unto consciousness. So the next creation (of miinds, energy and matter) will be out of that essence.

7. Though consciousness does not have direct link with matter but then the whole of the chain is out of conciousness. That also brings the notion that everything is nothing but consciousness.

Here I think you are describing, the fractal boundary between prakti and purusha, which include as stated above; elements of mAyA and all that she entails.

The key here really is the fractal non linear nature of this boundary; as the universe folds back on its self.

8. Are these the 4 states or the 4th state is beyond this i.e. beyond consciousness. If so how it is defined ? Does it mean that consciousness is out of something ? If yes what is that ?

Their is a very eloquent description of the 4th state in Richard Feynman's auto biographical book "Surely You're Joking, Mr. Feynman!" When he describes the moment of thought and experience as he realises the fundamental nature of "That", which leads to his developing of Quantum Electro Dynamics. For a scientist this experience is very fleeting as it is so connected to the material world, this is why I believe it makes a very good example to those who pursue it this helps to keep it relative to the world about us and easier to understand. I will try to find this passage so as to quote him ...

These are of course, thoughts derived from my limited knowledge and understanding, I am studying kashmir shavism so as to help formulate the images in my mind, into a conversant language. Please feel free to remark any errors I might have transmitted. Understanding is my life's goal; any means to a greater understanding will be greatly appreciated!

Thank you for expressing your thoughts; I hope that mine clarify rather than confuse your current minds image of that.

praNAma

mana

kallol

23 March 2012, 03:28 AM

Dear Mana,

At this point, I am in no position to contradict or support the observations on the thoughts, I had.

I am absorbing as much as possible through the discussions, nature, subtle clues, etc - final aim is to establish the connect between the prakriti and purusha - matter (gross and subtle) and consciousness.

I have not mentioned anything as my firm belief. These are questions in my mind towards the journey from Prakriti to Purusha. These are the driving forces for me to dive deeper in the Sanatana Dharma or Eternal Knowledge.

I wish I could have just read the scriptures and believed but that does not satisfy me, until and unless I realise myself. That is the pain and joy, I carry through out the journey.

Points those triggered my thoughts :

1. All is consciousness
2. Consciousness is attributeless, unchanging, permanent and source
3. Matter is changing, temporary and with attributes
4. Consciousness is permanent and matter is out of it or the changes are out of it.

If everything is consciousness then what are the relations between the apparent realities of gross matter (physcical matter and energy), subtle matter and consciousness ?
How they flow from each other ?
Why is conciousness changeless and others changing ?

Maya part does not belong to this chain, so I am not bringing that into picture.

Hence the fleeting thoughts and subsequent discussions.

Maya3

23 March 2012, 05:14 AM

Mana

23 March 2012, 06:58 AM

Namaste kallol,

I think your approach is superb, to my mind the deepest bhakti comes from realisation; to realise one must visualise.

Might I propose that this model might resemble a lotus rather than a chain, mAyA is thus an inextricable part of its beauty?

A thread of many strands woven naturally by the illusion of time.

Keep it up; this thread is a superb inquiry! Your enquiry helps me to better understand; I thank you profoundly for that!

Love,

mana

kallol

23 March 2012, 10:44 AM

Dear Mana,

The journey in the quest of knowledge moves from plateau to plateau each time higher than previous till we reach the final plateau.

Each of the lower plateaus are temporary time of fulfillment, assimilation and then the next question comes. That again drives up to the next plateau

The reason I did not consider Maya in this (I might be wrong also) is that Maya is a product of mind in conjuction with the senses we have. This is precursor to the karmas we go through, the desires and egos we have, etc. Maya is not real but the actions out of it which might be mental or physical are real. Maya is a notion, it is a mirage, it is our wrong perception. Now this real belongs to the prakriti part only, which again is temporary in nature.

The chain as I said might not be the right word as it might not be serial.

kallol

23 March 2012, 10:53 AM

Naya,
I can wake myself up at any time too. It feels very "Upanishadish"

I'm in deep sleep and then poof I'm suddenly awake usually a few minutes before the time I told myself to wake up.
Who is waking me up? Is my Real Self actually watching the clock? Am I waking myself up a few minutes before in case it takes a while to get me up?

Maya

Dear Maya,

There is a body clock. This clock regulates many activities which includes hunger, sleep, etc.

If the body is trained to wake at certain time, it develops that habit. I have this still.

Again you will find body can be trained to carry out tasks automatically without the directions from mind. So even you are on phone or in deep engrossing discussion with friend, your car reaches known destinations.

The capabilities of the body is still to be fully explored. We see certain special skills in different people which provokes the thought on the capabilities of body.

devotee

24 March 2012, 01:10 AM

Namaste Kallol,

There is a body clock. This clock regulates many activities which includes hunger, sleep, etc.

If the body is trained to wake at certain time, it develops that habit. I have this still.

I read about this body-clock or biological clock in my childhood. However, now I look at it differently. May be if you question this concept critically, you will have new clues to nature of Consciousness. Can you locate this biological clock anywhere in the brain/body ? Who is aware of this clock while you are asleep ?

Again you will find body can be trained to carry out tasks automatically without the directions from mind. So even you are on phone or in deep engrossing discussion with friend, your car reaches known destinations.

The capabilities of the body is still to be fully explored. We see certain special skills in different people which provokes the thought on the capabilities of body.

You are wrong, here. Body cannot be trained in anything. Mind can be trained. Body without mind's power is dead meat. Now, if the mind is engaged in talking to a friend or listening to its favourite music who is taking care of driving correctly ?

OM

kallol

24 March 2012, 01:31 AM

Namaste Kallol,

I read about this body-clock or biological clock in my childhood. However, now I look at it differently. May be if you question this concept critically, you will have new clues to nature of Consciousness. Can you locate this biological clock anywhere in the brain/body ? Who is aware of this clock while you are asleep ?

You are wrong, here. Body cannot be trained in anything. Mind can be trained. Body without mind's power is dead meat. Now, if the mind is engaged in talking to a friend or listening to its favourite music who is taking care of driving correctly ?

OM

With the present level of knowledge, I feel it is body. It might change later.

Body, being like a robot (with respect to higher mind), has some functions inherently, which it does. Like the internal activities - over which we hardly have mental control. Similarly some activities can be internalised and embedded in case it is taught regularly. The same is true for other animals also.

The same is the case in brain dead state or coma state. Certain activities are embedded by default and certain amount can be embedded according to need (like FPGA).

Mind need not always communicate with body for it's functioning. Also it might not be in the body, to make it function. The mind can get detached to the threshold limits beyond which it does not return. Depending on the yogic capability the threshold can be increased also. Body is programmed to take care of itself within that threshold zone. Remember we have discussed on the minds of the organs and cells. It is in these the biological clock resides.

Consciousness is enabler not Doer, so I cannot bring IT into picture.

Mana

24 March 2012, 02:18 AM

devotee

24 March 2012, 03:03 AM

Namaste Kallol,

With the present level of knowledge, I feel it is body. It might change later.

Body, being like a robot (with respect to higher mind), has some functions inherently, which it does. Like the internal activities - over which we hardly have mental control. Similarly some activities can be internalised and embedded in case it is taught regularly. The same is true for other animals also.

The same is the case in brain dead state or coma state. Certain activities are embedded by default and certain amount can be embedded according to need (like FPGA).

Mind need not always communicate with body for it's functioning. Also it might not be in the body, to make it function. The mind can get detached to the threshold limits beyond which it does not return. Depending on the yogic capability the threshold can be increased also. Body is programmed to take care of itself within that threshold zone. Remember we have discussed on the minds of the organs and cells. It is in these the biological clock resides.

Consciousness is enabler not Doer, so I cannot bring IT into picture.

I think, we should not assume that mind is in brain alone. The Consciousness which is capable to perceive something, discriminate, accept any signal and act on the signal is mind. Therefore, no intelligent system can exist in absence of a mind. What I am trying to point out here is : When "i" in you is sleeping ... there is another "i" which is taking care of proper functioning of biological clock and also making the body act as per the biological clock. In the deep sleep state when your 'i" which owns all your thoughts and actions in the waking state is dissolved into undifferentiated Mass of Consciousness & even then another "i" keeps working. That indicates how this body can't claim to have one unique consciousness alone (only the waking "i" with which we tend to associate ourselves). But can we say that there are different many consciousnesses ? That would be ridiculous.

OM

anirvan

24 March 2012, 05:02 AM

Namaste kallol, devotee, all

It could be of interest to examine the thyroid and pineal gland, and with it thus, the neuro endocrine system. By which our mind connects to our subtle body, which is its self, "apparently" suspended in the frame work of our physical body; by sensual perception.

The thyroid via hormones and its connection to the pineal gland; regulates the body's temperature, immune system (see also cancer link), allergic response and also body clock via melatonin and serotonin production, among others.

This hormonal system is also very much involved with our decision making processes, such as fight/flight, sexual and other; due to the adrenal glands and of course the sexual organs.

Interestingly recent research into jet lag has shown that the body/mind reacts and readjusts much faster if the person concerned meditates in or bathes in sunlight in the new destination.

Now the question here seems to be; as to the direction of flow of energy within this network of nervous chemical electric exchange; what can we call mind?

For example, our heart beats by its self, we often pass long periods of time giving no second thought to it. Our breathing happens in accordance with this to supply the required amount of oxygen to oxygenate the blood pumped. Do you see the direct relationship between the volume of blood and the volume of oxygen? They are directly proportional.
Now if I slow my breathing, the heart, via this relationship also slows in accordance. Now it is interesting to note here that the heart its self contains many millions of neurons. It has been observed that; the heart acts before the brain in certain situations, when the body may need more oxygen, in effect the heart decides before the ego; now is this mechanical; its response may be said to be acted upon by our intuition?

The injection of adrenalin that the heart is pumping through the body creates a feedback loop, this can drive our actions right down to our very thought and speech, the implications are profound; yet our breathing has a direct effect upon these otherwise automated response.

Food for thought.

praNAma

mana

Namaste all,

Body is controlled by nervous system.Again nervous system is various type according to subtleties of their function. Higher functions like cognitive functions ,the biological clock via melatonin of pineal glands all comes under higher cortical part of our cerebrum which is anatomically at level of crown-sahasrara.

The lower functions like sex,hunger,fear,smell and self defensive reflexes are controlled by Lower Limbic system which is at level of Ajna chakra.(physically at level of ear.

The autonomic nervous system which controls heart,blood pressure are located along side of spinal cord...which is very adjacent to nadis/susmna.

what do these proximity of anatomical location with spiritual yogic bodies implies?

These are grosser matter to the underlying subtler spiritual tracts/paths. When the prana flows in nadis,the blood flows in contemporary arteries.

And mind and prana are almost synonymous. where goes mind,prana follows.so mind is the boss/subtler. Entire nervous system is a hardwire which runs this machine called body.the soft power is mind which is consciousness.

This minds head office is brain,but its not the only place for mind.

Mana

24 March 2012, 05:54 AM

Namaste anirvan,

It is rather a beautiful example of the universe folding back upon her self.

The ancient model, derived with introspection, hypersensitivity and experience; confirmed by the latest neuro science.

Neuro science, seen externally, is so complicated; the practitioners can't yet see the forest for the trees. Yet introspection and careful observation reveals the framework as a model, an apparition.

The extroverted Doctors are not yet aware of the true nature of that which they study, I think that this will soon change. Unified conciousness, God conciousness, will become apparent as it is shown to be fractal in nature.

It is, to my mind; within this fractal field, that we can denote "states of existence".

Practise is of course, another matter ...

praNAma

mana

Maya3

24 March 2012, 07:22 AM

Dear Maya,

There is a body clock. This clock regulates many activities which includes hunger, sleep, etc.

If the body is trained to wake at certain time, it develops that habit. I have this still.

Again you will find body can be trained to carry out tasks automatically without the directions from mind. So even you are on phone or in deep engrossing discussion with friend, your car reaches known destinations.

The capabilities of the body is still to be fully explored. We see certain special skills in different people which provokes the thought on the capabilities of body.

It is not at a certain time, by habit. That too, but that is different.

It is whatever time I set "myself" to, it could be 6 AM, 3 AM or 5 AM. But never later like 9 or ten, I always wake up before that.

Maya

NayaSurya

24 March 2012, 07:58 AM

Also with me too, this time was not ever a fixed constant.

The first time it ever happen i was four years old. It was take child to job day. My father worked at the federal building many miles away and had to leave to work by 5 am. He tell me...if you are asleep i will not wake you to take. So i sit and pray to Beloved and ask for a way. I say "I will be up at 4:30" three or four times. But being so small i fell asleep quickly.

Four thirty on the nose, i woke up. After this, throughout school...even for SAT (a very important test) i use this trick. Any time, random.

But, now as i am older i have so many depending on me...i never do this. Besides, the husband also has to get up. My timer is never going to do that.:p

kallol

24 March 2012, 10:08 AM

Maya & NS - Absolutely correct - I did not mean exact time. Human being or animals acts based on fuzzy / neuro / etc. logics (called soft controls), which are based on imperfections. My PhD subject is same but in the area of underwater robots.

Genarally the evolution if you notice is from

1. Reaction only - in case of (lifeless) physical matters. I push a stone and it moves i.e it reacts

2. Sense and react - in case of monocells, lower beings, plants and trees. They sense something and react. Like plants sense sunlight and grow towards that. Only with addition of "sense" part we say that it has life.

3. Learn - Sense - React - This is the case in higher animals. They learn to walk, fly, run, turn, sit, eat, etc. Then they sense and react with the learning.

4. Learn - sense -plan - react - this is the case in some higher animals (to less extent) and mostly in human. This is where the logics, analysis comes before we take decisions. This is where the state of mind can be changed.

That is why the lower forms are only "bhoktas" and cannot change the state of mind.

Now if you notice, only with the advent of "plan" we move to mental activities more. It is here we try to know and decide the future. So this part "know" is the next evolution.

God "knows" all.

Depending on the frequencies of mind, the mind utilizes the logical part of the brain otherwise the the reactive part of the brain, takes over. Suddenly you see a tiger in your room. The part which makes you run for life is the reactive brain and not the mind (you just don't think at all neither you can afford to). When it is death staring at you, the reactive part of the brain takes over.

Mind is active when the logical part of the brain is existing and depending on the capability of the brain, the mind's potential capability exists. Also you need to have time to think.

kallol

24 March 2012, 10:23 AM

Namaste Kallol,

I think, we should not assume that mind is in brain alone. The Consciousness which is capable to perceive something, discriminate, accept any signal and act on the signal is mind. Therefore, no intelligent system can exist in absence of a mind. What I am trying to point out here is : When "i" in you is sleeping ... there is another "i" which is taking care of proper functioning of biological clock and also making the body act as per the biological clock. In the deep sleep state when your 'i" which owns all your thoughts and actions in the waking state is dissolved into undifferentiated Mass of Consciousness & even then another "i" keeps working. That indicates how this body can't claim to have one unique consciousness alone (only the waking "i" with which we tend to associate ourselves). But can we say that there are different many consciousnesses ? That would be ridiculous.

OM

The "I" is a kind of weighted average of the lower "I"s. It stays closer to the lower "I"s which pulls more.

Like in a society. The "I" of society is towards the "I"s of the section which has more influence. If society has predominantly good people the "I" of the society is towards the good and vice versa.

"I" is a floating variable.

The base assumption is that everything is out of consciousness and dissolves in consciousness. Again it is also true that once out of consciousness they acquire different characteristics enabled by consciousness.

The body "I" sleeps but heart "I", Lungs "I" stomach "I", etc cannot sleep. They are awake. The body functions go on and they have their own cycles of operations. These cycles are the ones which can be trained.

During sleep there is no intelligence at body level. But again the internal parts are not sleeping. The internal intelligence is on.

kallol

27 March 2012, 02:30 AM

Next few questions towards the understanding :

1. Why is that consciousness is not directly acting on body ?

As we understand that, it is the mind that rules the body. The consciousness is felt by the body only if mind is there in the body. Why can't consciousness by pass mind ? Does it mean it does not recognize the body as such and needs a driver (mind) to communicate ?

2. How does mind act on body ? What are the means ?

A body inhabited by mind "X" has one level of charaterictics (Rajas, Tamas, Satvik) and the same body inhabited by mind "Y" has another type of characteristics.

Does it mean that different minds brings in different energy levels into the body functioning ?

3. If the above assumptions are true then the continuity chain is again consciousness understands mind and works through it.

Mind understands energy and works through it.

Energy understands body and acts through it.

(I have not considered exceptions).

But is the understanding correct ?

4. If it is so then why ? i.e. consciousness understands mind and not all levels below. Similarly for others (vice versa also).

5. Does it mean this is the normal chain of evolution - consciouness to subtle bodies to (energy to) gross bodies ?

This is what has been given in scriptures also, if I am right.

devotee

27 March 2012, 05:47 AM

Namaste Kallol,

Next few questions towards the understanding :

1. Why is that consciousness is not directly acting on body ?

As we understand that, it is the mind that rules the body. The consciousness is felt by the body only if mind is there in the body. Why can't consciousness by pass mind ? Does it mean it does not recognize the body as such and needs a driver (mind) to communicate ?

Consciousness and mind are one and the same thing. However, when we say Consciousness, we mean Pure Unconditioned Consciousness but when we say Mind, we mean Conditioned Individualised Consciousness. As we have discussed in earlier posts, the Consciousness within our body acts mainly through brain but it also acts through various organs including infinite cells within our body.

Consciousness is not dependent on brain to work. The Yogis can go outside their brain and perform tasks whatever they want. Actually, Consciousness is unbroken equal-density infinite Continuum and our individualised Consciousness is nothing but a tiny vibration within that Consciousness which produces this body/brain and many layers under which it works.

2. How does mind act on body ? What are the means ?

A body inhabited by mind "X" has one level of charaterictics (Rajas, Tamas, Satvik) and the same body inhabited by mind "Y" has another type of characteristics.

Does it mean that different minds brings in different energy levels into the body functioning ?

The mind is conditioned with samskArs and depending upon samskArs and environment, various things including a particular type of individuality are created to act as per the laws of the waking/dreaming states working on it. I don't think introducing "energy" concept will help much.

3. If the above assumptions are true then the continuity chain is again consciousness understands mind and works through it.

Mind understands energy and works through it.

Energy understands body and acts through it.

As I told you, Mind is nothing but conditioned Consciousness. Consciousness is nothing but awareness/intelligence. So, the Consciousness by definition is omniscient but due to being conditioned, its True nature is hidden and its awareness gets limited.

5. Does it mean this is the normal chain of evolution - consciouness to subtle bodies to (energy to) gross bodies ?

There is no fixed rule here like what happens in Physics. The laws by which Consciousness is governed is beyond all our knowledge. Consciousness is the the material (means ... everything is nothing but Consciousness) and efficient cause (means it is Consciousness which "creates" everything) of whatever is in subtle (Dreaming state) and the gross (waking state) worlds.

OM

kallol

27 March 2012, 09:42 AM

Dear Devoteeji,

I have started with the condition that all is consciousness and nothing but consciousness. So there is no change in that understanding.

Also understand that consciousness (the highest level) is attributeless, changeless, permanent, omnipresent, equally present, etc etc.

From subtle matter to gross matter (lower layers or conditioned consciousness) the characteristics are in variance to pure consciousness i.e. they have attributes, constantly changing, temporary, etc etc.

Again I am not thinking of exceptions like what yogis can do. I am considering general living beings (right from mono cells to humans).

Again I am trying to explore more on what is mind ? or what is physical matter ? or what is non physical matter (energy) ?

How they are connected to each other and pure consciousness ?

Scriptures are written by Saints with their knowledge of science of those days. They have connected the life & creation theory to the day to day karmas and that way given a continuity from pure consciousness to our daily life. This is an exceptional efforts through many saints and through the ages.

Now given the present state of science and possible ability to think further how should the life and creation knowledge as written in the scriptures be perceived ?

That is where I am trying to connect.

Why the desireless, egoless mind merges with consciousness and does not go through rebirth ? Is it because it ceases to produce energy ?

What is the characteristics of mind ? It represents the constant dance. Is it the energy ?

Because of that the physical world is created. So if the mind can be controlled to the extent that no energy is created, then we stop creation of physical world.

What does better samskars and environment lead to ? More knowledge - better management of mind - reducing the production of energy.

Each and everything follows rules. Some we can decipher and some we cannot.

If there is arbritariness, then hinduism (particularly advaita) becomes another christianity or Islam.

I am trying to analyse the knowledge part of the scripture and not the ritualistic part i.e. taking a top-down approach. Once I have enough understanding of this, I will start connecting with the ritualistic part (the karma part).

devotee

27 March 2012, 10:03 AM

Namaste Kallol,

Again I am trying to explore more on what is mind ? or what is physical matter ? or what is non physical matter (energy) ?

How they are connected to each other and pure consciousness ?

Physical matter or energy is nothing but Consciousness in a particular vibratory mode giving rise to appearance of a certain entity with certain attributes. It appears from the Undifferentiated Mass of Conscious.

Why the desireless, egoless mind merges with consciousness and does not go through rebirth ? Is it because it ceases to produce energy ?

The Pure Consciousness doesn't "produce" anything in reality. The Consciousness gives rise to appearance of a world with regulating rules when in vibration. What is this vibration ? The primary vibration is "desire" which is followed by further modes of vibrations and "creation" of a world with varied things. When the desires die out, thoughts (which are indicators of vibration of Consciousness) are silenced ... automatically the Consciousness comes to its primal state. In this vibrationless state all the three illusory states disappear. When there is no illusory state, where can be re-birth, Karma, fruits of Karma or whatever ? That is why it is said that on realisation, all the Karmas are "burnt" in the fire of JnAna.

What is the characteristics of mind ? It represents the constant dance. Is it the energy ?

Mind is Consciousness looking outward from Itself. It is conditioned intellect.

So if the mind can be controlled to the extent that no energy is created, then we stop creation of physical world.

You may say so.

What does better samskars and environment lead to ? More knowledge - better management of mind - reducing the production of energy.

SamskArs create environment and environment affect SamskArs. SamskArs do conditioning of mind. Better SamskArs (impressions on consciousness due to the effect of Karmas) lead us to favourable chances in life and also help us move upwards spiritually. That is the law within the two states of Consciousness.

OM

kallol

27 March 2012, 11:08 AM

Namaste Kallol,

Physical matter or energy is nothing but Consciousness in a particular vibratory mode giving rise to appearance of a certain entity with certain attributes. It appears from the Undifferentiated Mass of Conscious.

I accept all of these theories.

Why does it get created ? How does it get created ? What and how is vibration when consciousness is pure and changeless ? Vibration means change.

The Pure Consciousness doesn't "produce" anything in reality. The Consciousness gives rise to appearance of a world with regulating rules when in vibration. What is this vibration ? The primary vibration is "desire" which is followed by further modes of vibrations and "creation" of a world with varied things. When the desires die out, thoughts (which are indicators of vibration of Consciousness) are silenced ... automatically the Consciousness comes to its primal state. In this vibrationless state all the three illusory states disappear. When there is no illusory state, where can be re-birth, Karma, fruits of Karma or whatever ? That is why it is said that on realisation, all the Karmas are "burnt" in the fire of JnAna.

Whether I have no sense, 5 sense or more sense, the physical world is there. There is mind also, there is energy also. Yes they are all consciousness but I can see, feel, etc. This has to be defined, derived. How they are linked to consciousness ?

By just accepting or believing they are vibrations of consciousness, we will not be able to explain the TRUTH to all. Neither we will have complete understanding of the phenomenon.

These desires and karmas are long down the path when mind has been created, when living beings are created. You are taking bottom - up approach. Even if you take so then all the ritualistic parts of daily life (actions thoughts, etc) have to be converted into the basic forms which contribute towards higher layer or lower layer.

What does karma or knowledge do to the state of mind ? Unbridled karma makes (uneducated) mind more rajasic (kinetic energy is more).
Kinetic energy creates, spreads and gives rises to more kinetic energies through other minds.

Controlled karma (through gaining of higher knowledge) makes the (educated) mind more satvik i.e. the energy is pulled up to more as potential energy. This goes back to dormant state and thus consciouness, where the next layers are in potential forms.

Mind is Consciousness looking outward from Itself. It is conditioned intellect.

Mind is consciousness looking outward from itself - right. Outward ? which direction is outward ? You are talking from human point of view.

If human is a robot, educated mind or wiser mind is a more intelligent system which has the capability to allow more pure consciousness to flow throughout the body and thereby have better capability of working in tandem with intellect. Though consciousness is there everywhere, it is the mind's capability which regulates the flow to lower level minds.

SamskArs create environment and environment affect SamskArs. SamskArs do conditioning of mind. Better SamskArs (impressions on consciousness due to the effect of Karmas) lead us to favourable chances in life and also help us move upwards spiritually. That is the law within the two states of Consciousness.

What are samskaras ? They are good karmas (physical and mental). How does it affect the mind ? It has been discussed above.

My main aim is to go down to basics. To understand mind, energy and physical matter from consciousness point of view. Answer all 4 W (What, Where, Why, When) & 1 H (How). We can also bring "Who" is responsible.

Thanks for your answers. It helps me think further and deeper. Please carry on with questioning my thoughts.