Will and self will...

[c.smith]

What are the differences between will and self will (ego)? I know that I must release my ego to the will of the Lord, but how and what is this "will"?

[sm78]

when will is viewed by/relative to the ego/self it becomes self will. There is one will really.

[satay]

Do we have 'will'?

[Agnideva]

What are the differences between will and self will (ego)? I know that I must release my ego to the will of the Lord, but how and what is this "will"?

This is the way I see it. When we practice Ishvara Pranidhana (dedicating everything to the Lord), self-will becomes Divine will. Or rather, we fail to see a difference between the two.

[yajvan]

Hari Om
~~~~~

Do we have 'will'?

Namaste Mumuksu ( desiring liberation or Moksha)

This conversation is quite profound.
The answer is in Agni - Divine will. When this is born in us , Divine Will begins to grow. Agni is known as jatavedas, he is born in all.
We wish to 'kindle agni' as it is said in the rk ved. that is upliftment of this Divine Will in us... for he becomes twice born, once in the cosmos, and then again within us.
Out of all the things that can be said in the rk ved, the very first words of this, from Madhuchchhandas-ji in RV1.1.1 is agnim ile, agni I adore.
This divine agni appears no less then 3000 times in the rk ved.

This will of ours is yoked to agni , as He introduces us to the other devata. It is my hope to befriend this agni, as he brings us to Indra, Divine mind.

When your will is His Will, then his purpose (agni) has been completed. All the stars in the sky rejoice, that one has found thier way.

pranams,

[c.smith]

So can it be said that if I surrender to Divine will that my ego can no loner exist? So now, how does one surrender to Divine will? I pray daily that the will of Krishna be done in my life and all those around me but ego still pops up quite often. Perhaps it is a slow process that lessens in time and with the chanting of mantra?

Seems like I have more questions than answers. Sometimes I wish that I could sit down with a cup of chai and really dive into this discussion even with my limited knowledge. Thank-you all for your input - it is important to me and invalueable.

[saidevo]

Namaste C. Smith.



So can it be said that if I surrender to Divine will that my ego can no loner exist? So now, how does one surrender to Divine will? I pray daily that the will of Krishna be done in my life and all those around me but ego still pops up quite often. Perhaps it is a slow process that lessens in time and with the chanting of mantra?


Here are my impressions on the subject. Members may please add more clarity to them.

A human soul comprises a trinity that parallels the Trinity Shiva-Vishnu-Brahma in this order: Will-Wisdom-Intellect or Atma-Buddhi-Manas. The Will that devolves on a human soul is the Divine Will. Wisdom, you know, is the ability to distinguish between actions that create desires and vAsanas and those that avoid them. Manas, the equivalent of Brahma, is the great Creator.

A human soul is Atman which is a spark from Brahman (like the jar space being a part of the outer space). Unfortunately, the jar is not empty, but filled with water, that is our mind, to the brim, forcing the Atman to remain immanent, so Atman is not readily reflected in the mind. Still, the water in the jar (that is our mind) does reflect the outer space, Brahman. This is only a reflection, so it is not the real Brahman, which is immanent. This reflected consciousness is known as Jiva.

In our waking and dream states, Jiva is associated with our BMI (Body, Mind and Intellect) and generates the personal ego to act and thereby also take responsibility for the action. The BMI is inert by nature. It is the Jiva that gives it sentience. In the deep sleep or Turia state, the waters of the mind are drained out and Jiva gets merged in Atman. Since Jiva is attached to the BMI in the waking state, the personal ego is bound to pop up so long as the mind has multiple threads of thought, like water spraying out of a tap. When a mantra is chanted or a japa is done, or meditation is undertaken, the flow of thoughts is regulated like the flow of sesame oil towards the object of worship.

All our actions are associated with the BMI to which the Jiva is associated when the action takes place. Atman stays behind, only watching the action. So long as our actions are associated with BMI we need to face the consequences that increase our vAsanas.

When we dedicate our actions to God, it becomes yajna or a sacrifice in the fire (what Lord Krishna says in Gita). What is actually required to be done here is to have this attitude of yajna and do our actions to our best abilities without any personal interest or expectation of results,--that is,--without any rAgA (or attraction) or dveshA (or repulsion).

What about any wrong actions, can they be done with a godly dedication? The answer is that dedication to the Divine Will means doing only such work as would be approved by our God of dedication and avoid other type of work and thus cultivate a discipline.

By doing every work as Yajna, we avoid the Vasanas, which are the impressions for further action of the same kind. The saying 'work is worship' is based on the attitude that it should be done as a Yajna dedicated to God.

Please read the Advaita dialogue at this link for a clearer picture: http://www.advaitin.net/advaitadialogue.pdf

[Agnideva]

Namaste Clay,

So can it be said that if I surrender to Divine will that my ego can no loner exist? So now, how does one surrender to Divine will? I pray daily that the will of Krishna be done in my life and all those around me but ego still pops up quite often. Perhaps it is a slow process that lessens in time and with the chanting of mantra?
Krishna’s Will is already being done in your life, Clay! Overcoming the ego is a slow and painful process for most of us, and is not possible immediately. I am sure all sincere Hindus are working on this goal, as every school of Hinduism teaches it. In Shaivism, we say that anava mala is the last to go. However, every one of us can begin by surrendering partially. It is recommended that we begin by attributing all actions and the fruits thereof, good and bad, unto God. This is Ishvara Pranidhana. Eventually, this will result in only doing actions which are for dharma, and not for your personal interests. Complete self-surrender means you will have no wants, no desires, no hopes for yourself, and everything will be left to the Lord.

For more on what it means to surrender to Divine Will through bhakti, I will redirect you to these excellent articles:

1) Bhakti Surrender (http://www.hinduism.co.za/bhakti-.htm)
2) Doctrine of Prapatti (http://www.dlshq.org/discourse/jul2000.htm)
3) Surrender to God (http://www.sriramakrishnamath.org/magazine/vk/2000/7-2-1.asp)

The key words here are Prapatti (absolute self-surrender), Atma Samarpana (offering of the self), Atma Nivedana (dedicating of the self) and Sharanagati (one who has taken refuge in the Lord).

Regards,
A.

[yajvan]

Hari Om
~~~~~

Namaste C. Smith.

What about any wrong actions, can they be done with a godly dedication? The answer is that dedication to the Divine Will means doing only such work as would be approved by our God of dedication and avoid other type of work and thus cultivate a discipline.

By doing every work as Yajna, we avoid the Vasanas, which are the impressions for further action of the same kind. The saying 'work is worship' is based on the attitude that it should be done as a Yajna dedicated to God.

Namaste Saidevo, AD, and C.Smith,

First , let me compliment you all on this level of thinking...this is HDF high quality discsussions - done with clairty of purpose, repsect, insight and looking for an expected outcome - this is vada at its hightest!

If I may , in a small way, add to this conversation.
'Work is worship' also suggests, that even when you do 'screw up' , give that too to the Lord. Not with ill intent. He knows you as He is at your core. Give it to Him for His management. If you have children, do you not love them at all times? and want them to bring you their problems, 'give them to me' they are big to you, but small to me.
"I am the Ocean" and you are the wave. All things come back to Me, you are and expression of Me. Express Me the best you can before you reach Moksha. Once Moksa dawns then 'my will' becomes Thy Will, the Divine Will. Then we are not guessing, are we doing His will, is this right or wrong? Let thy will be done, is a very profound statement as it comes to frution in Kavalya, in Liberation, in SELF awareness. Patanjali-ji calls this Dharma-mega, or Cloud pouring virtue.
Once this happens, then Yama and Niyama is natural for the sadu. One lives the freedom of life and does His work. Prior to this state, we do the best we can without worry. Why so? this causes angst which gives tension and blocks the natural progression to this Liberation. But you need to participate... you need to make choices on your action and being. For personal yajya to happen, this is transcending and bathing in the silence...this grooms the 'village of the senses' the nervious system to be able to live ( 7x24x365) in God Consciousness.

I hope this contributed to this most noble discussion and am happy to expand more as requested.

om iti etad akşharam udgītam upāsītā;
om iti hy udgāyati tasyopa vyākhyānam. (Chhandogya UPanishad1.1.1)
OM is the syllable (the Imperishable One); one should follow after it as the upward Song (movement) for with OM one sings (goes) upwards