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hesh86
12 April 2012, 10:55 PM
Is free will an illusion according to advaita? Is it deterministic or contra-causal? It seems that Vivekanand gives a material cause, thereby making it deterministic. However, sometimes a contra-causal argument is also given I think. Modern science is still resolving this issue, but at the moment most neuroscientists believe that free will is an illusion since the Self can only choose from prior experience and can not magically generate its own options. Also, we have evidence from science to support that the mind makes a choice seconds before the self is even aware that the choice has been made!

Anyone care to enlighten me about this?

Mana
13 April 2012, 01:05 AM
Namaste hesh,

I should speculate that; this depends entirely on ones level, or state of conciousness.

Depending upon each individuals saMskAra, forming part of a greater pattern, which is oneness in the fractal field.

What does this imply? To my mind this implies that; we choose how much freewill we have via our own Self realisation.

praNAma

mana

Aum namah Śivāya
13 April 2012, 01:28 AM
नमस्ते,

To me, there cannot be free will, when there is no proper individual self to make a decision.

In personal experience, I feel like I am working with God. Sometimes I feel a nudge of sorts that I need to do or say something, but it seems that I can choose to follow or not to follow that nudge. So it feels like a partnership, like God says "Hey, you should ...," and I say "OK."

But I find that the more I give up my free will, i.e., surrender to God, the happier I am.

ॐ नमः शिवाय

realdemigod
13 April 2012, 05:13 AM
Interesting question hesh86,
Recently I saw a documentary by BBC Horizon - Out of Control which shows neuroscientists are coming to the conclusion free will is an illsuion because our lives are mostly run by our subconscious minds due to repetition, incessant thinking etc., So imagine a person who has conquered his or her mind can do with his free will. Only great meditators can answer that question from personal experience I guess. I totally believe free will exists as at this moment you can choose to do anything you want.. you can do a good deed to any person or harm any living being.. no body is there to stop you but your karma will come back to you. Similar to circular logic your past karma will allow you or hinder to do this particular deed either doing good or harming someone in the first case. So doing good karma will ensure you to have a free will to do more good for yourself and others and bad karma might let you loose in free will but causing misery to you for sure.

I believe when great souls like Buddha, Swami Vivekananda say you can create your own destiny and you have free will they are considering the fact it can happen provided you are doing good karma.

I will see if I can find something on free will from Swami Vivekananda books.

Mana
13 April 2012, 05:38 AM
Namaste All,

Some interesting perspectives here already, if I might add a thought which I have just remembered:

The self can be compared to many things; we are all fairly familiar with the analogy of the Chariot, I also like very much that of the sailing vessel as well.

The captain of the vessel is free to go where he likes, just so long as he remains within the limits of nature and his vessel; he cannot sail up wind in a straight line, he must tack back and forth to achieve this, he is wise to be aware of all the undercurrents and tides, as these will greatly affect his progress.

We, at the helm of our vessels, are free to do as we please ...

praNAma

Mana

Jainarayan
13 April 2012, 08:40 AM
I'm on the fence on this free will business.

It makes sense to say that our subconscious is like a puppet master pulling our strings and determining our actions.

However, I know from others' experiences and my upbringing that selling weed or coke, or DUI will have negative consequences. Yet I can still do those actions if I ignore or override my "better judgment".

Now, maybe there would have to be some sort of short-circuit in my brain wiring that I should override my better judgment, and as a conscious rational person I really don't have free will.

What I do have is a headache now from thinking about this. :D

Maya3
13 April 2012, 09:40 AM
I think I agree with both Mana and Realdemigod,

so I guess I would say it's both. At the same time I do think that we are nudged in the right direction by God/Our True Self. As a matter of fact I was just talking to my friend about this yesterday, I'm going through some stuff right now and it really is as if God is moving things around for me to make the right thing happen. It's pretty amazing actually.

Maya

Seeker123
13 April 2012, 12:35 PM
The Advaita Gurus I hear clearly state humans have free will. Humans incur papa or punya only through their free will. On the other hand animals dont have free will; They just act according to their programmed nature and as a result dont incur papa or punya due to their actions. If humans didnt have free will and were just acting out their natures it seems unfair to ascribe papa or punya to their actions - does it not? Even the fact that I am typing this post is an expression of freewill. I could have easily chosen not to do so.

realdemigod
13 April 2012, 01:30 PM
The Advaita Gurus I hear clearly state humans have free will. Humans incur papa or punya only through their free will. On the other hand animals dont have free will; They just act according to their programmed nature and as a result dont incur papa or punya due to their actions. If humans didnt have free will and were just acting out their natures it seems unfair to ascribe papa or punya to their actions - does it not? Even the fact that I am typing this post is an expression of freewill. I could have easily chosen not to do so.

That's a good argument Seeker123. I remember talking a friend of mine recently who heard from some Swami don't know who he is..apparently he said free will is an illusion..surrender to god only then you will be happy. I don't know the context so can't hold the Swami responsible but if people listen to half the conversation like my friend did.. it will certainly affect your understanding of how you should lead your life.

Seeker123
13 April 2012, 01:44 PM
That's a good argument Seeker123. I remember talking a friend of mine recently who heard from some Swami don't know who he is..apparently he said free will is an illusion..surrender to god only then you will be happy. I don't know the context so can't hold the Swami responsible but if people listen to half the conversation like my friend did.. it will certainly affect your understanding of how you should lead your life.

True, it is hear se. It is possible that he was equating free will with the ability to control results. We clearly dont have that ability. We have choice over our actions (which we are calling as free will) but results of our actions depends on our choices, our efforts, past Karma, others and grace.

Surrendering to God is beautiful. But even surrendering to God is an act of our free will but how successful we are in surrendering is not entirely up to us. We can constantly pray for grace to help with our efforts.

kallol
13 April 2012, 07:44 PM
I think there are similar topics discussed quite a few time here.

1. The fact that we have confusion in mind, says that we have choices. And having choices, I can choose my destiny. That is why the hindu philosophy puts such importance on Karma. I chose to be an Engineer that is why I am Engineer. I could ahve been a doctor also. Both choices were there for me. Again at each moment (small or big) of life, we get choices and depending on the same I decide my end point of my life.

2. Depending on the higher level of knowledge assimilation, human take the decisions. I as an engineer can take better decision (in all probability) than a layman in my area of expertise. Similarly persons with higher level of knowledge of life and creation will be able to take better decisions to move faster towards the envisaged goal. A lesser person will be much slower

3. That brings us to State of mind. Satvik, Rajasik and Tamasic. Depending on which one is more prominent, the mind is dominated by intellect or body. The intellect (with right assimilated knowledge) driven minds are in a better position to choose the right direction than the body driven mind.

Spiritualseeker
11 August 2012, 05:43 PM
Namaste,

This is a topic that seems to confuse a lot of people. Some think that they have no free will, so they do not have to do anything, or they feel that anything goes. To a certain extent this is true. But although Advaita says that it is all God's will and that everything is happening out of the Self, it still encourages one to absorb this with their whole being. So although Advaita may say that no practice can lead to realization, advaita still encourages practice so to speak. The teaching of no free will and science can agree to this. Studies show that the brain already knows the action your going to take 6 seconds before you actually do it. This is Sivas attributes shining forth in the brain. God wills all of it, recognition of this does not make people lazy, immoral, or whatever neo spiritualist feel, but instead leads them to truly living their life fully.

I am in debt to teachers of Advaita. Long live all the great sages, may peace prevail from their teachings to all the Universes.

http://www.mahalayam.com/images/shankaracharya.jpg

Arunachala Siva

Satyaban
28 August 2012, 05:32 PM
That's a good argument Seeker123. I remember talking a friend of mine recently who heard from some Swami don't know who he is..apparently he said free will is an illusion..surrender to god only then you will be happy. I don't know the context so can't hold the Swami responsible but if people listen to half the conversation like my friend did.. it will certainly affect your understanding of how you should lead your life.

I have also wrestled with this issue. Isn't our purpose to realize God? Accepting this how can we not have free will, without free will what would our purpose be, to simply act out a drama? I have trouble accepting this. Furthermore if there were no free will the word "surrender" would not be a part of our lexicon because there would be nothing to surrender. Furthermore although karma, I believe, is fundamentally a reaction if we don't make decisions as a result how are we to learn from it.

Obversely The Creator being all knowing surely our every act and decision is known, I want to say beforehand but Siva is without time, so where does that leave free will?

I have also read that theoretic physicists say if they found the first cause to the universe they could explain and predict everything.

Lastly all of this debate is under the veil of Maya.

yajvan
29 August 2012, 05:12 PM
hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

namasté

One thing to consider....

If I had absolutely perfect, full and complete free will , I would not only have the total freedom of choice, but also the freedom to select the result ( fruit) of my actions.
Kṛṣṇa tells us otherwise. If we look to the bhāgavad gītā (chapter 2, 47th śloka) it says:
karmaṇi evādhikāras te
mā phalesu kadācana
mā karma-phala-hetur bhūr
mā te saṅgo'stv akarmaṇi ||

This says, you certainly (eva) have ādhikāra (claim , right , privilege, control) of your (te or ti) karmaṇi (of your actions) , but never or not (mā) of its fruits (phalesu) .

You have freedom to choose your actions, but not what those actions may yield.

praṇām

AmIHindu
30 August 2012, 04:34 PM
Namaste,



Is free will an illusion according to advaita?......

Anyone care to enlighten me about this?

Just to add to already given thoughts,

Per advaita, there is Oneness, no duality exist. So when soul is the only one it does not have will. Soul sees everywhere Himself only. Soul does not have any will as it is Soul. Soul is universe Himself so no like and no dislike, no desires, no pain.

Now so far we are human being, whatever karma done through Will bind you. Difference between a human being and soul is Maya. So Will will bind you but when Man has attained freedom, realization then no law bind him, He is the only one so no law exist. Soul is not man, not woman, not child. Soul does not belongs to any particular country, for Him whole world is His family.

The above is from Complete work of Swami Vivekananda, Chapter - The real & The apparent Man.

surrenderindailylife
30 August 2012, 09:00 PM
Free Will exists to the extend of giving individual soul freedom to choose different options for life's mundane activity. In my view, however, major life events (that would have an impact on the spiritual growth of the jiva) are pre-determined. The jiva has got NO option but to experience them and to enhance its spiritual experience.

yajvan
30 August 2012, 10:04 PM
hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

namasté


Free Will exists to the extend of giving individual soul freedom to choose different options for life's mundane activity. In my view, however, major life events (that would have an impact on the spiritual growth of the jiva) are pre-determined. The jiva has got NO option but to experience them and to enhance its spiritual experience.'

In advaita the notion of 'individual soul' is a foreign concept. That is paramātman or supreme soul is non different then jīvātman or human soul - hence there is just one, one Self, one Supreme that appears as many.

jīvā (or jīva ) is causing to live; it is the vital breath. Where people see many , there is just one.

praṇām

devotee
30 August 2012, 11:04 PM
Namaste,

To understand the idea better, analysis of one's dream should be done. During the dreaming process, the actor-dreamer (participates as an actor in the dream) apparently becomes a separate entity then the sleeping dreamer (the real witness of the dream, the cause of the dream). That entity i.e. the actor-dreamer participates in the dream drama with a free-will. He doesn't take advice from the sleeping dreamer on what to do. Bound by the laws of the dream world he keeps experiencing dream-fruits of his karmas in the dream (like satisfies his hunger by eating dream food).

As long as the dreamer is dreaming i.e. the dream character acts in the dream-drama he is bound by the laws of the dream and has to enjoy/suffer the fruits of his karma and the chances coming along. So, to that extent one has free will in the relative plane of existence. However, at the absolute level nothing actually is changing ... when the dream ends, everything experienced in the dream is equally laughable be it a good experience or a bad one.

Illusion and illusory existence talked about in Advaita has been misunderstood like nothing else. I have given above the example of a dream of a human being above to illustrate the point. However, the Self is many times powerful than ordinary human mind. Its dream is no ordinary dream. Its illusion is no ordinary illusion. Its illusion can create gross world as solid as you feel by touching a piece of rock. So, unless the concept of illusion is clear ... a number of questions unnecessarily arise which have no meaning from Advaita point of view.

OM

Atma
05 October 2012, 07:06 AM
Hello to everyone
I'm very new of this list
I'm very interested in Advaita Which I think is my present path.
This thought of the day I found it in Puttaparthi and was so strong so I took a picture of it as soon as I Had seen it .

Any comments

Thanks