PDA

View Full Version : Bhakti and hallucinations



Rudy
15 April 2012, 02:07 PM
How do we know if we are having a genuine vision of God, and not the misfiring of an overly emotional brain?

Eastern Mind
15 April 2012, 02:27 PM
Vannakkam Rudy: Good question, and I have no answer. On the rare occasion it happens or has happened to me, I usually go with the former, but maybe I'm just being emotionally optimistic. I don't see how there could ever be a really objective way of telling.

Aum Namasivaya

Aum namah Śivāya
15 April 2012, 02:46 PM
नमस्ते,

I agree. I don't see that there is a way to tell the difference, or perhaps there is even no difference. Maybe God appears to you by making your brain fire in a different way, thereby creating a vision. Who cares? :)

It isn't even the visions that matter. They just encourage you along the path, but it's not good to become too focused on the experiences, whether visions, sensations, sounds, etc. What matters is the love you have for God within your heart, and the fire of your devotion.

ॐ नमः शिवाय

Rudy
15 April 2012, 03:10 PM
I thought the point of Bhakti Yoga was to have a vision of God. What is the goal? I know God realization but I do not know how that manifests in Bhakti Yoga.

Aum namah Śivāya
15 April 2012, 03:25 PM
I thought the point of Bhakti Yoga was to have a vision of God. What is the goal? I know God realization but I do not know how that manifests in Bhakti Yoga.

नमस्ते,

I would say that the vision is only a nice side-effect, akin to meditative experiences—nice but not necessary, and potentially distracting.

Again, is not the purpose of devotion to love God even more and more? When I do devotion, it is not to have an experience, but it is because it is the obvious thing to do—to love God and devote myself to God. God blesses me greatly and gives me grace in one way or another, but this is not my purpose of devotion. Ideally, we should do all things for love of God, then all things will be holy.

Perhaps you should ask yourself why you do bhakti?

ॐ नमः शिवाय

Rudy
15 April 2012, 03:49 PM
Perhaps you should ask yourself why you do bhakti?

Well one day I want to know God personaly as much as safely possible, I want Him to respond back... I know that I am saying "want" a lot there, but it is were I'm at right now.

I would like Shiva to say "hi" back.

The reason why I want (there it is again) to personally know Shiva is like why would I want to know my parents.

Maybe this is just a carry over from a little while ago where I was an agnostic, I crave certainty.

I crave a knowledge and a personal relationship with Shiva.

Does that make sense? :dunno:

Eastern Mind
15 April 2012, 03:49 PM
Vannakkam Rudy: I think there are several purposes of bhakti. One is just to soften the intellect, add stillness, calm, humility and other qualities to a subconscious mind that may be hardened. I never go looking for mystical experiences like you describe. That's why I said in other thread they come unbidden. If it happens it happens. If it doesn't it doesn't. So I'm with Aum Namah Sivaya on this.

Aum Namasivaya

Rudy
15 April 2012, 04:23 PM
It appears I just had one of those "Learning experiences".

I must honestly thank you. For all my reading I seemed to of not learned to not search for religious experiences. I just did not know for some reason (but hey thats the reason I'm on this forum:))

JaiMaaDurga
15 April 2012, 04:33 PM
Namaste Rudy,

I agree with the previous replies as well; I am adding my voice here
simply because I identified myself as an agnostic for a long time, before
hearing Maa's call.
Please consider this: as much as rationalism is of benefit in navigating
the physical world, when one is attempting to enter the path of bhakti,
expectations and preconceptions must be seen for the obstacles they are.

Attempts to impose rules, or some personal framework of acceptance or rejection
will only meet with frustration and a lack of progress- it is akin to saying
"I would like some tomato soup, but only if it is served on a skewer."

If you wish to draw closer to Lord Shiva, be first willing to accept His terms, and don't forget-
Lord Ganesha, His son, is the Remover of obstacles;)

JAI MATA DI

Aum namah Śivāya
15 April 2012, 05:56 PM
Well one day I want to know God personaly as much as safely possible, I want Him to respond back... I know that I am saying "want" a lot there, but it is were I'm at right now.

I would like Shiva to say "hi" back.

The reason why I want (there it is again) to personally know Shiva is like why would I want to know my parents.

Maybe this is just a carry over from a little while ago where I was an agnostic, I crave certainty.

I crave a knowledge and a personal relationship with Shiva.

Does that make sense? :dunno:

नमस्ते,

You want Śiva to say hi—that is great. :D It is great you want a personal relationship with Him. However, it seems you are seeking these things through visions and religious experiences.

It is not that Śiva is not saying hi, and not wanting to have a personal relationship with you, but because you are not hearing Him. YOu want Him to come through dramatically, a booming voice in the clouds and all that, and that's not really how it is.

One of the things I love about Hindus is how they see God everywhere. I was reading a thread the other day where someone thought a carrot resembled Ganesha, and so they kept it on their altar. That's just such a beautiful love that I aim to model in my own life.

Śiva whispers; Śiva does not yell. YOu must listen closely, watch closely, to catch a sound or a glimpse of Him. He is more likely to speak within your own heart, rather than in a vision.

I understand the skepticism, but you have to lay that all down if you want to have a relationship with God. Your doubts will block that from happening. Look around you and see the way Śiva works in your life already.

ॐ नमः शिवाय

McKitty
15 April 2012, 05:57 PM
Namaste Rudy,

I am adding my voice here
simply because I identified myself as an agnostic for a long time, before
hearing Maa's call.

JAI MATA DI

I agree with JaiMaaDurga, as I was in the same situation as her before hearing Lord Shiva's calling.

What brought me here are my dreams years ago about Lord Shiva. First it surprised me, then I wanted to know more about him, then I have read many sacred books and finally I began to worship and took the path of Sanatana Dharma.

The Shiva in those dreams, was he just my imagination ? I don't know. Maybe it was just my brain. But the very force that have lead my life into Santana Dharma, that is what I call the encounter with Shiva. It's...difficult to explain and excuse me because english is not my native language but...For me Shiva is the path. He is not a giant man that appeared before me physically...He is the path that was before me all the time and that I never saw before, he is the very force that put me into Sanatana Dharma. I owe Shiva not visions, but whole experiences of learning, meeting and love in India and in my country.

This is what a real "vision" is for me. it is the change that occurs in you. Lord Shiva is inside you and you feel him, you feel that you have learned something, that there is something new. It can be a very tiny thing, as well as a big change, it all depend on you ! Shiva is everywhere around.

Aum~

Mana
15 April 2012, 11:42 PM
Namaste Rudy,

You have some fantastic responses so far, if I might add another perspective for your consideration. I am going to be a little technical here as I feel that your initial question is shying somewhat, from the emotional mind.

“The intuitive mind is a sacred gift and the rational mind is a faithful servant. We have created a society that honours the servant and has forgotten the gift.”

Albert Einstein


To my mind there is no such thing as an overly sensitive brain, sensitivity is an eye with which we detect the world about us. If we have no understanding of the workings of this emotional function of our manas, we may become swept away by the torrents of information.

Those who are less emotional may inform you that this is over emotionality when you try to describe that which you see/feel, one must developed the language and rational to express this, you may be told by those around you that you are hallucinating, when in fact it is they who have misunderstood your message, often due to lack of "insight". We must choose wisely, with whom we pass satsang.

It is recommended by swami LakshmanJoo, to those on the path of Kashmir Shavism, that initially one focuses on Siva continually, and does not speak to others whilst going about ones business ...

A hallucination is that; when we lack the dharma and understanding of the nature of reality, to express that which we see. The hallucination takes the form of images or reflections of your dharma powered by saMskAra, and there is always a message should we chose to listen. This is how the deepest knots are untied.

Now vision in this respect is not about seeing, as with the eyes; to my mind this is an internal understanding of shakti, as she becomes apparent to us.

We find that the world is full of Grace; the dance becomes apparent.

praNAma

mana

Aum Namaḥ Śivāya

wundermonk
16 April 2012, 01:14 AM
How do we know if we are having a genuine vision of God, and not the misfiring of an overly emotional brain?

Essentially, we cannot.

For, George Bush believed he had a genuine vision of Jehovah asking him to invade Middle-Eastern lands.

Mohammed believed he had a genuine vision of arch-angel Jebriel asking him to bring the whole world under the banner of Islam.

Now, both of these cannot be true simultaneously. Both of them can be simultaneously false though. ;)

anirvan
16 April 2012, 03:53 AM
Its a fact that overly emotional persons with lesser intelligence says lots about their suprasensory vision/darshans.even majority describe such things(false) to get attention and respect.the former cases may be either hallucination or may be true vision as extra-ordinary emotion brings extra-concentration too.

But there is a general pattern in bhakti-meditation and vision of deity.

Initially a bhakta is able to see a part of the deity he is meditating.after long practice,he may be able to see full picture.gradually the pictures start moving,start talking,start responding to bhakta"s thought,laughing etc.

But till this point of time,the entire vision of the devotee is purely the mind"s projection.the form/image of deity,the response etc are according to the knowledge,aspiration of the devotee.the image is nowhere close to the true form of deity.whatever image we have created in our mind after seeing,listening about a deity will be reflected in our meditation.

After long practice,suddenly the image of our dissapear and the image of the deity according to his wish will appear in our vision.That image may be either --tattva-mayee,may be bhava-mayee depending upon our dominant character/nature and is decided by deity.Then this image also starts to change with time and according to developement of our knowledge.

But the image seen by highest sadhus/gopibhava siddha"s are true and real.the pictures we worshipping is according to our taste,just like south-indias" krishna,north"s and east"s krishna image varies widely.