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Eastern Mind
22 April 2012, 04:13 PM
Vannakkam: I believe some days seekers and sadhakas, including me, get ahead of themselves. Surely we have no hope of understanding the Self without at first having an inkling or two about ourselves. As with AA and many other self-help ideas either within the context of Hinduism, or not, usually a must on a personal level is an admission that you at least suffer from occasional bouts of the stuff.

Certainly I see a lot of irony some days ... "I'm so mad that my sadhana was interrupted!"

Lately I've been reflecting on anger: it's negative effects, its colour, what causes it, how to learn to harness it, it's variance in degrees, and more, within the context of a project I've been working on.

Of course it varies from the subtlety of a snide remark, to revenge, to rage, and comes in all kinds of ways like shunning, physical, emotional, and seems to be one certain way of either working out or accruing karma.

Some examples: When in India I witnessed a shopkeeper berating his employees to the point where if he'd have been on the west, someone may have stepped in. Certainly a cop would have.

I had to walk out of a classroom full of kids one day for fear of doing something stupid enough to lose my job.

One man at our temple disturbs the peace more by yelling at other devotees to shut up than the disturbance caused by the devotees themselves.

So I have a few questions for discussion, perhaps, if anyone else is at all interested in pursuing the low instead of the highs of consciousness.

1) Is it really all that harmful?
2) Where is it in the mind, in consciousness?
3) What are some causes, or the root cause?
4) How does dharma fall into the equation?
5) Is there more latent anger in some cultures than in others? How about ages, or genders?
6) Do different societies deal with it differently?
7) How subjective is it? Is it easier to see in others than in yourself? Do you excuse yourself but not others?
8) Are there any circumstances when its truly justified?

Just thoughts for a new discussion.

Aum Namasivaya

nirotu
22 April 2012, 05:00 PM
Vannakkam: I believe some days seekers and sadhakas, including me, get ahead of themselves. Surely we have no hope of understanding the Self without at first having an inkling or two about ourselves. As with AA and many other self-help ideas either within the context of Hinduism, or not, usually a must on a personal level is an admission that you at least suffer from occasional bouts of the stuff.

Dear EM:

Here is my 0.002 C.

Anger is emotional and not spiritual. Such anger is a result of disagreement. Imagine a spiritually mature person, who claims to be rooted in scriptural values as a guide, has no control over his anger! If someone thinks he is spiritually mature yet does not bridle his tongue, and so deceives his heart, his religion/spirituality is futile. If one cannot control his tongue, his Godliness is worth zero. Such anger never accomplishes God’s righteousness. It only destroys you before it destroys others. So often we see bad testimony from seemingly good people is because of the way they use their tongue. We all need to learn to alleviate anger. It is when anger has no outlet and morphs into resentment that it carries with it the potential to cause turmoil.


Perhaps, we need to ponder over these Verses in Proverb 17:27 that might help one grow spiritually, “He who has knowledge spares his words”. Precisely what it means is “keeping in check a multitude of opinions that could ignite further anger in others”. We need to learn from other elders who are very careful in their usage of language. Because, someone who displays wisdom will think before speaking, and then will share only insights likely to be helpful, as he/she perceives.

However, there is also anger called “righteous anger” that we should all cultivate to have. We all get angry at our children only to set them right just as God’s righteous anger to set his children right.

Next time we become angry, we should stop and prayerfully reflect for a moment. Ask God for a calm spirit and the right words to say that will only edify others. A mature person exhibits understanding by keeping cool in conflict. Therefore, before we open our mouth, we need to “critique” ourselves so that we are less likely “criticized” by the others.

If you think that God’s love seeks to transform our behavior, in His love, we don’t react disdainfully or angrily towards others simply because we don’t agree.

Blessings,

Eastern Mind
22 April 2012, 05:57 PM
Anger is emotional and not spiritual.

Vannakkam: I understand what you're saying, but overcoming it is spiritual, at least we can use spirituality or methods (tantras). (By this I mean within the context of Hinduism primarily) If it isn't spiritual, then just what is it we mean by 'progressing towards moksha' or other similar statements, beside overcoming such baseness as anger, jealousy, avarice, or all those wonderful isms known to humanity?

I also notice the hypocrisy you pointed out, yet I see that its really each individual's job work on raising their own consciousness. As the old saying goes, one can only change themselves.

Thanks for your thoughts.

Aum Namasivaya

Eastern Mind
22 April 2012, 06:04 PM
God’s righteous anger to set his children right.



Vannakkam: Either we have different God's or different concepts of God, because Siva doesn't get angry. At least that's my understanding.

Aum Namasivaya

charitra
22 April 2012, 09:06 PM
anger within reasonable limits is permissible if the outcome is constructive. Anger can be a form of protest against adharma. Gita says act without any expectations or attachment (of the outcome). Easy said than done.

Anger if redirected in a proper manner may prove to be inspirational and very productive. Some Wo/men on this forum, for example, harbor some anger against injustice meted out to hindus, so as a result they channel the energy in explaining the virtues of their path. Namaste.

nirotu
22 April 2012, 10:03 PM
Vannakkam: Either we have different God's or different concepts of God, because Siva doesn't get angry. At least that's my understanding.

Aum Namasivaya

Thank you, EM. While I greatly respect your view, I have somewhat a differing view of the Lord Shiva.

Perhaps, we are talking of same God with different view!

As I understand, the mystery of God cannot be comprehended by the mind of man. That is because there are endless attributes and aspects of the Brahman of which we, human beings, have no absolute knowledge. Yet we insist upon interpreting the nature of God on the analogy of his own personality, a complex mix of cognition, affections and desires.

That said, we do know that the unity in wisdom, love and goodness is clearly visible in the way he operates. “His activities in relation to the world are those of creation, redemption and judgment (S.R)”. Accordingly Brahma represents the cognitive aspect of God, creates; Vishnu represents the love, redeems; Shiva the God of omnipotence, power and perfection, judges. Thus, God is not merely truth and love, but also justice. He is the embodiment of power and perfection, the judge of good and evil, the Lord of karma, karmadhyaksha. When we sin, it is Shiva the judge, who punishes us. Creation, redemption and judgment are the three fundamental aspects of the creative evolution. It is the One viewed as threefold,”eka eva tridha smrtha”.

The fact that the redemptive aspect is rooted in the divine, shows there are elements from which we are to be redeemed. Otherwise, we all would have been equally divine and there would be no need of redemption or judgment. Gita says (Chap III, 10) “Brahma created man along with the law of sacrifice.” The law is the means by which we can realize God’s ideal for us and grow in to His likeness. But, we forget our origin, our place in His plan because of our endless and selfish pursuit of our own desire. It is then the need for God’s redemptive power arises. However, His redemptive activity takes place in accordance with the very order created by Brahma, who does not care to exalt Himself by condemning the very laws framed by His own fingers. No matter how much all loving Vishnu actively wants to help every soul to fight against sin and stupidity, He does not act against our own will. Thus the judge, Lord Shiva, is waiting in the wings to act upon our sin.

You will notice that Christian theology is also realizing that the unity of God is consistent with His three aspects, as described by Aquinas, Father as the power, Yahweh exercising judge (Siva), the Son as the Logos, Word or wisdom, the principle of creation (Brahma), and the Holy Spirit as pervading love (Vishnu). However, the Christian theology differs in the sense that the three aspects are three modes of His activity (one essence) and not as three distinct minds or centers of consciousness.

Blessings,

Ref:
Gita (Chap III)
Taittiriya Upanishad
S.Radhakrishan- Indian Philosophy/Indian Religious thoughts
T. Aquinas

wundermonk
22 April 2012, 10:59 PM
You will notice that Christian theology is also realizing that the unity of God is consistent with His three aspects, as described by Aquinas, Father as the power, Yahweh exercising judge (Siva), the Son as the Logos, Word or wisdom, the principle of creation (Brahma), and the Holy Spirit as pervading love (Vishnu). However, the Christian theology differs in the sense that the three aspects are three modes of His activity (one essence) and not as three distinct minds or centers of consciousness.

Dear nirotu:

I am sorry to sound like a broken record but this should be said.

In this entire thread there has been no mention of Christianity until your post. This was not the "Abrahamic religions" subforum.

Why cannot you let go of your attempts at proselytization?

It has been said before and it bears repeating...Jesus, Abraham, Moses, Adam, Eve, Mohammed, Allah, Yahweh, Father, Son, Holy Ghost, etc., etc. are of 0 relevance to Hindus. Zero, Zilch, Nada, Zip. They are relevant to Christians/Muslims and them alone.

I hope that you will be gracious enough to understand the POV of majority of the posters here on HDF and refrain from dragging in Abrahamic figures arbitrarily into a discussion on HINDU dharma forums.

When invited as a guest, unless explicitly asked for, I wouldnt impose my version of divinity onto the host. Looks like you do not share such values.

Thank you in advance for your cooperation.

nirotu
22 April 2012, 11:06 PM
Dear nirotu:

I am sorry to sound like a broken record but this should be said.

In this entire thread there has been no mention of Christianity until your post. This was not the "Abrahamic religions" subforum.

Why cannot you let go of your attempts at proselytization?

Perhaps if you read the OP, you would not have acted upon your anger!
Read his post clearly and see my underline.


Vannakkam: I believe some days seekers and sadhakas, including me, get ahead of themselves. Surely we have no hope of understanding the Self without at first having an inkling or two about ourselves. As with AA and many other self-help ideas either within the context of Hinduism, or not, usually a must on a personal level is an admission that you at least suffer from occasional bouts of the stuff.

I would like to assume "when not in the context of Hinduism" implies in the context other than Hunduism..

As I said before, Critique yourself before being criticized by others.

Blessings,

wundermonk
22 April 2012, 11:36 PM
Perhaps if you read the OP, you would not have acted upon your anger!
Read his post clearly and see my underline.



I would like to assume "when not in the context of Hinduism" implies in the context other than Hunduism..

As I said before, Critique yourself before being criticized by others.

Blessings,

Ah ok. My bad.

Please carry on. Brahman = Abraham?

Mana
22 April 2012, 11:42 PM
Namaste Em, All

To my mind Anger is the rapid release of static electricity from the tripe in the stomach into the heart and brain; I would think, given recent evidence that I have seen, that it is actually the neurons in the heart which decide from within the sub concious; this creates an adrenal injection usually to drive speech, but at other times a more physical reaction, should the heart decide. I forget which documentary off hand, it was very compelling evidence for this.

How we react upon this at a subconscious level depends upon our habits and our balance. All this is prana how we translate that energy in to action depend upon our skills as a charioteer.

Different social structures and cultures react in greatly differing ways, as this energy flow in the body is also highly interconnected with love and desire, intelligence and fear.

This is where the Self is joined to the self, it depends verymuch as to the percieved status of the individual as to how their endocrine system is balanced, in regards to them selves, as a group or if very advanced, completely independently.

Now as intelligence is suspended upon this framework, manas is the connection between mind and body via these prana. Bhudi maintains dharma and is the charioteer, either we listen to our learned passenger or not.

Subjective, I don't think so, not at all. However, there are many who are completely unaware of the extent to which they are driven by static in their tummies; this is more due to a lac of conscience that anything else, and is again, governed by the heart.

Is karma justifiable? Our anger is like the variation in the groove on a record, it is our choice as to whether we play that track.

An interesting thread EM thank you for asking, what do you think?

praNAma

mana

devotee
23 April 2012, 01:53 AM
Namaste EM,

Recently, I have been working on "how to manage disturbance arising in mind". After a lot of watching over the rising of thoughts, their patterns and our getting involved into the thinking process, I have drawn some conclusions for myself (I don't claim these to be the Truth) and it is helping. I would like to share it with you ;

a) I as Consciousness and my body-mind-ego are two different entities. It pays to keep visualising oneself as Consciousness distinct from this body-mind-ego.

Actually, we are told by this world that we are this body. It is not natural to identify ourselves with our body. If you try to visualise yourself what you really are then you stop at a point where only awareness is and that is different from this body. For identifying yourself with your body you have to try it consciously by imposing your "self" over the image of your body.

b) All emotions and disturbances arising in our mind are nothing but different types of thoughts. Anger too is a type of thought/mind-wave giving rise to some physio-psychic changes in our status.

c) Anger/any disturbance arises in us due to special conditioning of the individualised Consciousness that we are. The individualised Consciousness has learnt to generate a mind-wave known as angry in specific situations. It is not natural. Why ? if it were been natural, everyone of us would have reacted to a particular situation in similar fashion (as the pure consciousness is same which is the essence of all of us). However, we all know that everyone reacts to a particular situation in a different manner. So, it can't be natural but acquired.

d) The argument in c) tells us that we must unlearn (reacting in a particular way in a particular situation) reacting to remove the conditioning to bring it in perfect control or to acceptable limits.

e) Now the question is how to unlearn what we have learnt over many lifetimes ? So, let's first find out the triggers :

i) Non-fulfillment of any desire causes anger. The desire can be for satisfying hunger, being respected or obeyed, for satisfying sexual urges, for a company for sharing our sorrows and pleasures, for justice, for doing something good to people who are suffering etc. etc.

So, we must identify the desires to which we are strongly attached. These attachments are the seeds of angers/disturbances. These attachments can be very very strong and depending upon their intensity they can bring forth various thoughts within us in varying intensities. It is also not necessary that you have to consciously get involved to make a thought arise in you. It can happen even without any attempt to consciously get involved and even while you are making all possible efforts to resist arising of a particular thought in you. Even if you know that a particular thought is wrong and can only harm you, it arises spontaneously due to strong conditioning of the Consciousness with that attachment. The Conditioned Consciousness has got used to generate a particular mind-wave as soon as a particular type of situation arises.

ii) Branding oneself as weak, or sinner or similar meaning adjectives doesn't help. We are fully powerful to overcome the force of attraction of desires. The first thing that we must develop is the practice of watching the arising of thoughts with or without a particular trigger :

Does it start after getting consciously involved or spontaneously just coming into contact/vicinity of the "object" causing the disturbance ?

Just watch the arising of the thought within your mind ... it is arising in the Conditioned Consciousness due to past conditioning ... you are not a party to this process. This "watching" of the arising of thoughts can be fun and it also gives us the power over the arising of the thoughts. Slowly the arising gets reduced in intensity as it doesn't get the required "feed" due to your being uninvolved and becomes weaker and weaker and comes into control.

This is just theory and I still have a long way to go to master all arising in my minds. I am struggling on the way and trying to find out my way. :)

If it helps anyone, it would be a big bonus which is unintended.

OM

nirotu
23 April 2012, 06:08 AM
Namaste EM,

Recently, I have been working on "how to manage disturbance arising in mind". After a lot of watching over the rising of thoughts, their patterns and our getting involved into the thinking process, I have drawn some conclusions for myself (I don't claim these to be the Truth) and it is helping. I would like to share it with you ;

a) I as Consciousness and my body-mind-ego are two different entities. It pays to keep visualising oneself as Consciousness distinct from this body-mind-ego.

Actually, we are told by this world that we are this body. It is not natural to identify ourselves with our body. If you try to visualise yourself what you really are then you stop at a point where only awareness is and that is different from this body. For identifying yourself with your body you have to try it consciously by imposing your "self" over the image of your body.

b) All emotions and disturbances arising in our mind are nothing but different types of thoughts. Anger too is a type of thought/mind-wave giving rise to some physio-psychic changes in our status.

c) Anger/any disturbance arises in us due to special conditioning of the individualised Consciousness that we are. The individualised Consciousness has learnt to generate a mind-wave known as angry in specific situations. It is not natural. Why ? if it were been natural, everyone of us would have reacted to a particular situation in similar fashion (as the pure consciousness is same which is the essence of all of us). However, we all know that everyone reacts to a particular situation in a different manner. So, it can't be natural but acquired.

d) The argument in c) tells us that we must unlearn (reacting in a particular way in a particular situation) reacting to remove the conditioning to bring it in perfect control or to acceptable limits.

e) Now the question is how to unlearn what we have learnt over many lifetimes ? So, let's first find out the triggers :

i) Non-fulfillment of any desire causes anger. The desire can be for satisfying hunger, being respected or obeyed, for satisfying sexual urges, for a company for sharing our sorrows and pleasures, for justice, for doing something good to people who are suffering etc. etc.

So, we must identify the desires to which we are strongly attached. These attachments are the seeds of angers/disturbances. These attachments can be very very strong and depending upon their intensity they can bring forth various thoughts within us in varying intensities. It is also not necessary that you have to consciously get involved to make a thought arise in you. It can happen even without any attempt to consciously get involved and even while you are making all possible efforts to resist arising of a particular thought in you. Even if you know that a particular thought is wrong and can only harm you, it arises spontaneously due to strong conditioning of the Consciousness with that attachment. The Conditioned Consciousness has got used to generate a particular mind-wave as soon as a particular type of situation arises.

ii) Branding oneself as weak, or sinner or similar meaning adjectives doesn't help. We are fully powerful to overcome the force of attraction of desires. The first thing that we must develop is the practice of watching the arising of thoughts with or without a particular trigger :

Does it start after getting consciously involved or spontaneously just coming into contact/vicinity of the "object" causing the disturbance ?

Just watch the arising of the thought within your mind ... it is arising in the Conditioned Consciousness due to past conditioning ... you are not a party to this process. This "watching" of the arising of thoughts can be fun and it also gives us the power over the arising of the thoughts. Slowly the arising gets reduced in intensity as it doesn't get the required "feed" due to your being uninvolved and becomes weaker and weaker and comes into control.

This is just theory and I still have a long way to go to master all arising in my minds. I am struggling on the way and trying to find out my way. :)

If it helps anyone, it would be a big bonus which is unintended.

OM

Dear Devotee:

Excellent post!

I will agree with you and EM that with our Sadhana or Spiritual maturity, we can identify trigger points as when it is about to occur. Mark of a spiritual person is that he is able to subdue those thoughts that arise and take action (it is quite possible with such a person he never has these thoughts to begin with!). That is why we see a yogi with a demeanor that reflects perfect calm in the midst of chaos!

Thank you both for an interesting discussion!

Blessings,

Eastern Mind
23 April 2012, 08:08 AM
Vannakkam Devotee: Your words echo my understanding, from my Guru's teachings. He called the consciousness awareness, and all the states of mind lay waiting as places awareness could move into. Then we use will, as the driver of the car, to consciously move awareness from one area of the mind to another, purposefully directing our thoughts. This ability to direct awareness increases as the soul matures. So people with no will are free roamers in all the states of mind.

Interesting indeed that you were able to conclude these things on your own. To me it shows the value of Hinduism, and its insights into mind's nature.

(nirotu ... FYI, When I said 'within the context of Hinduism, or not' the not I meant was psychology, or mental studies, not from the context of another faith that is irrelevant to these forums.

I have no need or desire to debate with you the nature of God. If you want that debate please go start a thread on it elsewhere. )

My thoughts on anger being justifiable is 'Never'. But by this I mean real anger, not fake anger. I used fake anger (higher volume for example) just a sense of authority, all the time when teaching. But it was just some acting on my part.

Real anger, although it happens even to the best of controlled souls is an area of mind best avoided entirely because of karmic consequence, breaking of ahimsa, and more. Just how to avoid it is another idea altogether. I think an intentional walk away from the scene helps, and this is the will acting to do that. Here on HDF, for example, might it not be wise to wait 30 minutes intentionally before responding to a post that upsets you?

Aum Namasivaya

Leena
23 April 2012, 02:56 PM
Namaste, EM.

I often ponder about anger as well, as it seems that everyone in my town is angry about something. Being raised by angry parents tends to rub off on the offspring, at least in did in my case. After recognising the anger within myself, I wondered how to overcome it and came up with a way similar to that of which Devotee suggested. It doesn't work all of the time (I blame female hormones in the cases it doesn't;) ), but I'm not nearly as angry as I used to be as a child/teenager.

I think it's easier to see anger in others than in yourself because it's difficult for most to look themselves from another's perspective. In order to do that, one has to be completely unbiased, honest, and lose the ego, and there's not many people who can do that. Once the ego is dropped, I believe one could see it more honestly.

The biggest cause of negative anger, IMO, is ego. Once ego is dropped, it's hard to be angry at anything. However, ego could result in positve anger that leads to protests for humanity and such, so maybe ego isn't so bad.

Leena

Eastern Mind
23 April 2012, 03:52 PM
Vannakkam Leena: Thanks for the wise comments. I do ponder how much of it is related to learned behaviour as well. One teacher colleague was always saying, "The apple doesn't fall far from the tree."

But how to 'unlearn' is the dilemma. I know with me personally, it sometimes took a very hard lesson before I'd get it through the thick head. But what you say regarding ego is true to me as well.

I'm not aware of many strategies one can take to attempt to get another person to see the damage their anger might be inflicting, not only on others, but via karma, on themselves. What is there to say to a person like that?

"Hey Buddy, I think you're an angry person," probably just makes the person angrier.

As for the hormones alluded to, most married men get that one, although I do wish that a wise elder like my parents may have told me about that one a bit earlier in life, rather than leaving it for me to figure out for myself. Another factor along the same lines is definitely lack of sleep.

Aum Namasivaya

ShivaFan
23 April 2012, 09:29 PM
Actually, I do not become angry except when I feel I am observing something cruel or extremely stupid and I have no means to stop it circumstantially or conveniently, and generally these tend to be on a much larger setting rather than personal. For example, Muslim terrorism makes me angry, when such evil kills others such as blowing up a bomb in a Hindu temple, or killing animals senselessly such as when Mugavi was shotting down elephants from a helicopter in Africa. Or when other devotees are targetted due to stupidity such as when some Sikhs were attacked by stupid people who thought they were Muslim, which happened just after 911. Child molesters make me angry. These are examples, and typically the root of my anger is I want it to stop but there is no ready or immediate way ... I become angry, and it feels that it comes from my heart then hits my brain. But soon I try and think of some crafty or intelligent response.

Mana
23 April 2012, 11:36 PM
Namaste

Yes Leena you are wise to note that ego is maintained with anger, a testament that challenges an egos right to its perception of its self; will often provoke a violent reaction, much like prodding a snake with a stick.

I think that we can assume that anger turned on its head is fear, in the case of the ego; fear of loss, loss of the metaphorical higher ground .

EM, I think that we must shine light upon reality and let the beholder see for them selves; this only when we are in a good firm posture, any attempt to call a pot a black will often provoke anger!

Brian those cases that you site are all normal reactions, but still with that said, the most effective weapon of the martial artist; is in directing and channelling this energy and not becoming angry, so our reaction may heavily depend upon intent?
When we are angry due to past karma, deep saMskAra, in a more permanent way; this, is a terrible thing.

Lenna brings up a great point in that a whole community can become angry, or aggressive thus being gentile becomes abnormal; this is adharma at its worst!

Evolution in progress; stressed frightened mothers, feel safe only with aggressive men, and give birth to children who are effectively angry by nature; it is worth noting that anger and aggression can be at its worst when it is psychological ...

Peace!

praNAma

mana

Seeker123
24 April 2012, 01:47 PM
1) Is it really all that harmful?
2) Where is it in the mind, in consciousness?
3) What are some causes, or the root cause?
4) How does dharma fall into the equation?
5) Is there more latent anger in some cultures than in others? How about ages, or genders?
6) Do different societies deal with it differently?
7) How subjective is it? Is it easier to see in others than in yourself? Do you excuse yourself but not others?
8) Are there any circumstances when its truly justified?


Anger is definitely harmful. It arises in the mind when desire is frustrated. The main reason why it is bad is that it can lead to delusion and potentially to adharmic action. Lack of anger leads to a quieter, focused mind which can meditate better and understand Gnana better which can help attain Moksha. This does not mean that one cannot use anger beneficially to inculcate better behavior in kids etc. There is it controlled and there is no hatred.


However, the Christian theology differs in the sense that the three aspects are three modes of His activity (one essence) and not as three distinct minds or centers of consciousness.

Blessings,

Ref:
Gita (Chap III)
Taittiriya Upanishad
S.Radhakrishan- Indian Philosophy/Indian Religious thoughts
T. Aquinas

You quote Radharishnan initially but then conclude Siva, Vishnu, Brahma are three distinct minds! Remember Radhakrishnan's quote It is the One viewed as threefold”.

rog
24 April 2012, 01:58 PM
Namaste, EM.

I often ponder about anger as well...............

Once the ego is dropped, I believe one could see it more honestly.

The biggest cause of negative anger, IMO, is ego. Once ego is dropped, it's hard to be angry at anything. However, ego could result in positve anger that leads to protests for humanity and such, so maybe ego isn't so bad.

Leena

Hello Leela and all,

I am very new to being a Hindu but I have been looking at my anger. My biggest problem is not carrying anger as I feel that even before I was a Hindu I was good at letting it go and feeling forgiveness but I have always been short tempered and easy to irritate.

I agree with all you said but 'positive anger' is an interesting concept. What I realised from the Hindu advice was that anger takes your consciousness beneath even the higher worldly aspects of humanity such as logic and reason. I know this to be true from 'losing it' countless times:(

I was discussing this with a non-hindu friend who has a good heart. He was very angry about how his adult daughter is being treated by her boyfriend. He was very protective of her and defended his anger as 'righteous'.
I explained what I have learned and I said that his observations about the man's behaviour are valid but that his anger was a selfish indulgence. He refused this until I used a scenario I read.

If you think of his behaviour as endangering her happiness it is no different to a river endangering her safety if she fell in. Who is best placed to take the right action to save her, a person who is thinking clearly or a person who has lost his head?

By being angry at the man he was wallowing in his own feelings and in no place to help her. - He has now borrowed my copy of Bhagavad Gita.:D

Leena
24 April 2012, 03:10 PM
Vannakkam Leena: Thanks for the wise comments. I do ponder how much of it is related to learned behaviour as well. One teacher colleague was always saying, "The apple doesn't fall far from the tree."

But how to 'unlearn' is the dilemma. I'm not aware of many strategies one can take to attempt to get another person to see the damage their anger might be inflicting, not only on others, but via karma, on themselves. What is there to say to a person like that?

"Hey Buddy, I think you're an angry person," probably just makes the person angrier.

Aum Namasivaya

Namaste EM. You are welcome. I agree with Mana that they have to see their anger in themselves before it can be helped. If you tell them that they are angry or ask them about it, they could take it the wrong way. There's nothing you can do for a person if they can't see past their own darkness.

Leena

JaiMaaDurga
25 April 2012, 02:59 AM
Namaste,

Much thanks to EM for once again providing a thoughtful and thought-
provoking thread, and to all who have posted such considered replies;
while I will not try to categorically answer the listed questions, after
letting the topic steep for a bit, I would like to share some ideas.

To my mind, "anger", in and of itself, is neither good nor bad; for the
embodied, it is the emotion that translates an instinctual reaction,
one of defense- the organism's attempt to send the message,
"I am not prey!"

Even when anger is felt over one's family being threatened,
or a child feels anger at a rock they have stubbed their toe on,
I feel this holds true; the first is an example of an individual's natural
expansion of their sense of "I" to include relatives (and the spousal bond is
extremely strong in this regard).

The second, while a reaction to an inanimate object rather than another
sentient being, is still instinctually motivated, both directly, as a response
to physical injury, and as a response that reflects our "human" nature, in
that we have always lived in groups. Having always been highly socialized,
we all carry a base-level sense of "being under observation", and
there is an instinct to offset any appearance of weakness.

This translates into the more complex manifestations wrought by our
brains; and the ego (which is like Raktabija, in seeming to multiply its power
with every injury ) jumps in quite quickly for many, to establish a
powerful foothold in its neverending quest to obscure Self with it"self"...

In early youth, one will question the intent or responsibility of others or
oneself, in a novel situation resulting in "hurt feelings"- "Did I make a
mistake?" "Was I at fault?" etc.

The ego, if permitted, has tendency to shorten, and too often eliminate entirely,
these inner "conversations", and externalize responsibility- to declare
"This will not be tolerated!" and put the intellect to work at rationalization
and justification.

Yet I reiterate- anger itself is just what it is, not intrinsically good, or bad.
I am reminded of sunyata07's signature; there is always a point at
which someone makes a choice, and sadly, for many that choice was one
made long ago, the choice to ignore any inner voice, other than the ego's.
The experience of anger as an emotion is to be expected as natural
for the average person- it is how it is dealt with, how it is expressed,
what thoughts, words, and deeds progress from it, that is of concern.

Clinging to anger, bitterness, grudges- this is like drinking poison, hoping
your enemies will die from it.

For those reading who might be thinking, "But what of Divine anger?", it
is not like comparing apples and oranges... more like comparing apples and
photosynthesis.;)

I apologize for once again meandering here and there, and thank those
who are patient enough to wade through these words of mine!

JAI MATA DI

Eastern Mind
25 April 2012, 07:24 AM
For those reading who might be thinking, "But what of Divine anger?", it
is not like comparing apples and oranges... more like comparing apples and
photosynthesis.;)


Vannakkam JMD: I really liked this part in particular. We certainly don't need to be excusing our own behaviours based on metaphorical lessons in myth. Thanks for a well-thought out post.

Aum Namasivaya

Purana
30 April 2012, 10:55 PM
What my personal view on anger is, it is an emotional poison that grips around you slowly as it take roots in you. It is a dangerous state of mind that requires strong will and mindfulness to control it. How many of us often gave way to anger with thoughts that may lead to physical harm? Whether upon oneself or to another? We can see such display in our every daily life. Fights, murders, quarrels etc etc. Myself too, often at times anger control my mind but I am glad that whenever I am about to see the 'red', I would close my eyes and picture my lord Vinayagar in my mind. Most of the time it works with me smiling at the other party or simply walk away.

Necromancer
02 January 2013, 11:51 PM
Vannakkam: I believe some days seekers and sadhakas, including me, get ahead of themselves. Surely we have no hope of understanding the Self without at first having an inkling or two about ourselves. As with AA and many other self-help ideas either within the context of Hinduism, or not, usually a must on a personal level is an admission that you at least suffer from occasional bouts of the stuff.

Certainly I see a lot of irony some days ... "I'm so mad that my sadhana was interrupted!"

Lately I've been reflecting on anger: it's negative effects, its colour, what causes it, how to learn to harness it, it's variance in degrees, and more, within the context of a project I've been working on.

Of course it varies from the subtlety of a snide remark, to revenge, to rage, and comes in all kinds of ways like shunning, physical, emotional, and seems to be one certain way of either working out or accruing karma.

Some examples: When in India I witnessed a shopkeeper berating his employees to the point where if he'd have been on the west, someone may have stepped in. Certainly a cop would have.

I had to walk out of a classroom full of kids one day for fear of doing something stupid enough to lose my job.

One man at our temple disturbs the peace more by yelling at other devotees to shut up than the disturbance caused by the devotees themselves.

So I have a few questions for discussion, perhaps, if anyone else is at all interested in pursuing the low instead of the highs of consciousness.

1) Is it really all that harmful?
2) Where is it in the mind, in consciousness?
3) What are some causes, or the root cause?
4) How does dharma fall into the equation?
5) Is there more latent anger in some cultures than in others? How about ages, or genders?
6) Do different societies deal with it differently?
7) How subjective is it? Is it easier to see in others than in yourself? Do you excuse yourself but not others?
8) Are there any circumstances when its truly justified?

Just thoughts for a new discussion.

Aum Namasivaya
I have only just started back on my spiritual journey after many years of hiatus. During which, I did a lot of bad things that I am not proud of. I hurt many people and broke the law constantly.

Anger is a trait I am still working on. I am a Shiva Bhakt, and I get really annoyed with those who reduce religion/God down to scientific rationalism and imperialism, discrediting Bhakti Yoga as being nothing more than 'the product of a delusional mind'. My blood starts boiling then and I don't know why.

I guess another bad trait I must lose, is wanting to be accepted for who I am and what I believe in. Thus, the only person who can understand how a Bhakta feels is another one and I should accept that.

I am trying to overcome this by 'catching' myself just before I allow myself the luxury of indulging in these feelings, whilst still feeling them, then applying a saying I really love by Descartes:

"Whenever somebody offends me, I raise my Soul so high, that words cannot reach it".

Then I pray to Shiv Bhagwan to give me the strength and love to be able to do that.

Sometimes though, it still gets very difficult, so I do the only thing I can do until I am more established in my path and sadhana...ignore them.

Aum Namah Shivaya