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wundermonk
24 April 2012, 01:22 PM
Hello everyone:

The issue I would like to bring up for discussion in this thread is the following and it is very simple.

What, if proven to be true, would be a defeater for Hinduism?

[Now, there are certain things that are plain straight forward but also completely irrelevant that I hope are not raised in this thread - these would be stuff like - If it is proven Adam/Eve existed...If it is proven that Allah exists..., etc.]

Notice, that I am framing the question so that the burden of proof is on the "opponent". This is to prevent the opponent from asking me to prove the non-existence of pink unicorns.

Now, when I say "defeater for Hinduism" what Hinduism am I referring to? Hinduism is a generic name given to the different belief systems that evolved in ancient India. Yet, there are certain philosophical/metaphysical issues that are common to all Hindu schools of thought that may also overlap with science.

(1)Existence of a soul/self.
(2)Existence of an afterlife for the soul/self.
(3)The universe has an infinite past. The entire universe goes through cycles of "creation" and "dissolution" but the same material cause/souls are reused across cycles. The souls have beginningless Karma.
(4)There is no "end" state for the universe.

Some possible defeaters that can be raised are:

(1)evolution - I cannot speak for others, but I find no reason why this would be a defeater for Hinduism. I have rudimentary knowledge of evolution but can reconcile with theistic-guided evolution. Hinduism also has the concept of various avatars of Vishnu that can be reconciled with evolution.

(2)The universe does NOT have an infinite past but time itself began with the Big Bang. Now, if this is proven true, then clearly, the concept of beginningless Karma takes a hit. But proving that time itself began with the Big Bang is not that trivial. This (http://hindudharmaforums.com/showthread.php?t=8900) post may be of interest.

(3)Consciousness is an emergent property of living things. Per Hinduism, consciousness is the very essence of the soul or else it is considered a property of the soul. Hinduism accords special importance to the existence of a self and its relationship to consciousness. Now, if it is proven that consciousness is nothing sui-generis, it is indeed a defeater for Hinduism.

What other discoveries do you think science can make that would throw a wrench in the works? Notice the emphasis on "science". So, let us not discuss the Problem of Evil on this thread. Let us also keep paradoxes such as omnipotence vs omniscience, etc. out of this discussion.

PS: As the Opening Poster, I promise to be very polite on this thread. Let us try to keep the discussions interesting and polite.

Mana
24 April 2012, 02:17 PM
Namaste wundermonk,

This sounds to be an interesting discussion; thank you for posting.

If I might humbly explain that to my mind, the premise of your title would imply battle, sanAtana dharma is to my mind more like a plant growing; changing with the seasons, dependant upon the elements. Growing in prakRiti and our collective conciousness.

Now Hinduism, is a word upon that plant. If we examine it more closely, we may observe that "Hindu" with the ending "ism"; its self denotes or imply the existence of other branches upon this plant.

We could talk of another branch out growing the isms sub set, or, another ism putting Hinduism into obscurity.

Nothing can defeat Hinduism it is a philosophy; Hindus how ever, may be fought for land.

It is philosophy that is used to justify such battles, yet, it is not the philosophies who fight, it is man. For what? For Water, Land, Women and Riches.

Where sanAtana dharma (Hinduism) to my mind, out classes other doctrine, is quite simply; by being the Grand Mother of them all. In her very being, She shows the forms and elements nature. In ways that other doctrines can barely understand, even her own practitioner struggle to grasp the entirety of that which she denotes.

I will predict that science will return home to sanAtana dharma (Hinduism) as the more recent understandings, brought to light by recent branches and discoveries in Astronomy, Genetics, Neurology + + + , the more closed minded linear Scientist will start to see the connection between the underlying patters of life and, that which the ṛṣi have been describing for aeons.

The paradigm will start to shift rapidly back to the eternal law of mother nature; Many would say that this is already happening.

Hinduism will not be defeated, recognised maybe; as having carried the flame through such diversity for so long, never defeated.

I'm not sure that this is the sort of posting you wish for intellectual debate, it is I can assure you, from the Heart.

:)

praNAma

mana

Eastern Mind
24 April 2012, 03:49 PM
Vannakkam wundermunk: I'm not exactly sure of what you had in mind, but a thought occurred to me, "What would it take for me personally to stop believing in Hinduism?" and from that, although it seems preposterous, I applied the molecular theory of social change with reasoning, "If it happens to me, then maybe the same could happen to all other Hindus, thus eliminating Hinduism."

So on a personal level, I see logic as a barrier in and of itself. I think the more time we spend in intellectual pursuit, the less our deeper feelings about faith become. It diminishes 'stuff'. Take a guidebook on practical Hinduism, for example. Someone comes along intellectually full of pride and says, '"But I read that book already." The teacher replies, "Oh yes but did you understand it?"

Another thing that could win us over, IMHO, is the loss of tradition, in the agamic mystical sense. If there was nothing out there left of that powerful heart-felt energy, then just what would be left?

But as far as what I can understand as to that you might be implying, "Would any debater debate, or prove something to defeat Hinduism or the arguments we have on the nature of God, etc., I would stick my neck out and say, No, that's impossible. Natural laws like those within sanatana dharma may be given different names, or forgot about temporarily, but they still exist. I do believe the tree does make a sound, even we're not there.

Aum Namasivaya

Tāṇḍava
25 April 2012, 06:15 AM
(2)The universe does NOT have an infinite past but time itself began with the Big Bang. Now, if this is proven true, then clearly, the concept of beginningless Karma takes a hit. But proving that time itself began with the Big Bang is not that trivial. This (http://hindudharmaforums.com/showthread.php?t=8900) post may be of interest.

Of course this would have to be accompanied by a proof that it is the only universe, and that it is the only occurrence (will not be repeated again and was not repeated before).


(3)Consciousness is an emergent property of living things. Per Hinduism, consciousness is the very essence of the soul or else it is considered a property of the soul. Hinduism accords special importance to the existence of a self and its relationship to consciousness. Now, if it is proven that consciousness is nothing sui-generis, it is indeed a defeater for Hinduism.

This would not be a problem for me, in fact I think it would only be an isue for the strictest dvaita philosophy. Saiva Siddhanta teaches that souls emerge from Shiva and return to him (http://www.himalayanacademy.com/resources/books/dws/dws_mandala-29.html):


"As a thousand sparks from a fire well blazing spring forth, each one like the rest, so from the Imperishable all kinds of beings come forth, my dear, and to Him return."


Just as the sparks emerge from the fire, but require carbon fragments and air, would it be an issue if souls emerging from Shiva needed prakriti to take form?




What other discoveries do you think science can make that would throw a wrench in the works? Notice the emphasis on "science". So, let us not discuss the Problem of Evil on this thread. Let us also keep paradoxes such as omnipotence vs omniscience, etc. out of this discussion.

PS: As the Opening Poster, I promise to be very polite on this thread. Let us try to keep the discussions interesting and polite.

I am not sure that there is anything that could throw a wrench in the works completely.... unless you count "pseudo science" like the possibility of digging a deep pit and finding hell.

anirvan
25 April 2012, 08:50 AM
1-peaceful co-habitation of human and dinosaurs:) (as veda described Sanaka,Sanatha kumar etc existed millions years back)

2-Evolution from virus through dinosaurs to homo-sapience.

3-Inter planetary migrations of souls as Earth is never the only inhabitable souls and its also not going to stay to eternity.

4-cloning ...cloning from body tissue apart from germ cells

4-Karmik samskars is associated with souls before creation....?
If Sanaka,Sanatkumar could directly went for meditation after birth,why other souls born first time failed to trap of Maya/karma-samskar? As they must be born with sattva-dominance ?

5- Why the need of Freedom..as one forget everything after death,why should one other what is happening to a person next birth,though he might be the same soul?

so many.....without proper answers....I will put some more later.

MahaHrada
25 April 2012, 10:18 AM
Saiva Siddhanta teaches that souls emerge from Shiva and return to him (http://www.himalayanacademy.com/resources/books/dws/dws_mandala-29.html):


"As a thousand sparks from a fire well blazing spring forth, each one like the rest, so from the Imperishable all kinds of beings come forth, my dear, and to Him return."


This is the teaching of a new age movement. A "Church" founded by a western Guru, which mixes up Shaiva Siddhanta teachings, Theosophy, Christiantity, Buddhism and diverse New age teachings. In the traditional indian agamic Shaivaism also called Shaiva Siddhanta, the souls, bondage and Shiva are eternal. The concept of fully merging into Shiva does not exist in agamic Shaivaism and i am not aware of any hindu tradition who teaches that the atma can cease to exist. This idea must have been adopted from Buddhism because it is a buddhist belief that Nirvana is cessation, but wherever he got this idea from, it was not taken from Hinduism.

"Eternal Entities
Saiva Siddhanta believes in the three eternal entities of God, Soul and Bondage (materials of bondage). These are called Pati, Pasu and Pasam respectively in Siddhanta philosophy. Pati means Lord (of the souls) who is God. Pasam means bondage. Pasu means that which is under bondage. All things known and perceived are included in these three categories.

According to Saiva Siddhanta God is one, Souls are many and Pasam consists of three impurities (malams) called Anava (anavam), Karma (kanmam) and Maya (mayai). Like Pati who is real and eternal, Pasu and Pasam are also real and eternal."
Dr. K. Ganesalingam

http://www.saivaworld.org/pageview.cgi?iD=903&cat=9

Tāṇḍava
25 April 2012, 10:20 AM
So on a personal level, I see logic as a barrier in and of itself. I think the more time we spend in intellectual pursuit, the less our deeper feelings about faith become. It diminishes 'stuff'. Take a guidebook on practical Hinduism, for example. Someone comes along intellectually full of pride and says, '"But I read that book already." The teacher replies, "Oh yes but did you understand it?"

Namashkar Eastern Mind,
I agree with what you say, you can intellectualise and analyse things too much. This is a trap that I fall into; my work in computer systems means that I an practised and habituated to analyse things. I disagree with it diminishing stuff though - it obscures things temporarily. Sitting down in front of the deities, hearing the bells and feeling the shakti brings you back to the real purpose - sensing God in yourself and others, not just theorising on why it must be there.
Aum

Tāṇḍava
25 April 2012, 11:17 AM
"As a thousand sparks from a fire well blazing spring forth, each one like the rest, so from the Imperishable all kinds of beings come forth, my dear, and to Him return."
This is the teaching of a new age movement. A "Church" founded by a western Guru, which mixes up Shaiva Siddhanta teachings, Theosophy, Christiantity, Buddhism and diverse New age teachings.

Actually it is from the Mundaka Upanishad (http://oaks.nvg.org/mundaka.html), Second mundaka Book 1.

MahaHrada
25 April 2012, 11:22 AM
Actually it is from the Mundaka Upanishad (http://oaks.nvg.org/mundaka.html), Second mundaka Book 1.

It is a misquote, the meaning is not and never was, that the atma has a beginning or an end, such an idea is unknown in Hinduism. It is a key teaching that the atma is beginningless and eternal.

charitra
25 April 2012, 12:19 PM
Source: The Upanishads by Swami Nikhilananda. Advaita Ashrama, Kolkata (pages 110-115)

Mundaka Upanishad II.i. 1 “As,from a blazing fire, sparks essentially akin to it fly forth by the thousand, soalso, my good friend, do various beings come forth from the imperishableBrahman and unto HIM again return.

He is the self luminous andformless Purusha, uncreated and existing both within and without. He is devoidof prana, devoid of mind, pure, and higher than the supreme Imperishable ( II.i.2)
Of whom are born prana, mind,all the sense organs, akasa (sky/ether), air, fire, water, and earth whichsupports all. (II.i.3)

Excerpts from MUNDAKA: Theradiant from dwells in the cave of the of heart and known to move in there…theradiant and subtler than the subtle, That is the indestructible Brahman……Thatis the prana, speech and mind; That is true and That is immortal. That alone isto be struck (II.ii.2) Take upanishads as

The bow, the great weapon, andplace upon it the arrow sharpened by meditation. Then having drawn it back witha mind directed to the thought of Brahman, strike the mark, O my good friend-that which is imperishable. (II.ii. 3)

Om is the bow; the atman is thearrow; Brahman is said to be the mark. It is to be struck by an undistractedmind. Then the atman becomes one with the Brahman, as the arrow with thetarget. ( II.ii.4)
In Him are woven, heaven, earth,and the space in between, and the mind with all the sense organs. Know thatnon-dual Atman alone and give up all other talk. He is the bridge toimmortality. (II.ii.5)

He move about, becomingmanifold, within the heart….Mediatate on Atman as Om. May you cross beyond thesea of darkness……He assumes the forms of mind and leads the body and senses; …dwellsin the body, inside the heart…the wise behold HIM fully in all things……therethe stainless and indivisible Brahman shines in the highest, golden sheath…itis That which they know who know the Self……The sun doesn’t shine there, nor themoon and the stars, nor these lightening, not to speak of the fire. When heshines, everything shines, everything shines after him…..this immortal Brahmanalone is before, that Brahman is behind, to the right and left. Brahman alonepervades…this universe is that supreme Brahman alone. ( II.ii 6-10)

Charitra: It is likely that shiva was depicted as synonymouswith Brahman by Shaivaite sampradaya.

Sahasranama
25 April 2012, 12:34 PM
This is the teaching of a new age movement. A "Church" founded by a western Guru, which mixes up Shaiva Siddhanta teachings, Theosophy, Christiantity, Buddhism and diverse New age teachings. In the traditional indian agamic Shaivaism also called Shaiva Siddhanta, the souls, bondage and Shiva are eternal. The concept of fully merging into Shiva does not exist in agamic Shaivaism and i am not aware of any hindu tradition who teaches that the atma can cease to exist. This idea must have been adopted from Buddhism because it is a buddhist belief that Nirvana is cessation, but wherever he got this idea from, it was not taken from Hinduism.

"Eternal Entities
Saiva Siddhanta believes in the three eternal entities of God, Soul and Bondage (materials of bondage). These are called Pati, Pasu and Pasam respectively in Siddhanta philosophy. Pati means Lord (of the souls) who is God. Pasam means bondage. Pasu means that which is under bondage. All things known and perceived are included in these three categories.

According to Saiva Siddhanta God is one, Souls are many and Pasam consists of three impurities (malams) called Anava (anavam), Karma (kanmam) and Maya (mayai). Like Pati who is real and eternal, Pasu and Pasam are also real and eternal."
Dr. K. Ganesalingam

http://www.saivaworld.org/pageview.cgi?iD=903&cat=9

Namaste Mahahrada,

Thank you for mentioning the traditional Shaiva Siddhanta view. I strongly doubted that the concept of old and young souls that the followers of this church talk about could be a traditional view of the shaiva sampradaya.

The Church of SS also promotes the idea of lower chakras which are named after the puranic locations of the lower regions of the universe. Do you know whether this idea is already present in agamas and tantras, or is this also a new age invention?

wundermonk
25 April 2012, 12:46 PM
I think the concept of an eternal soul is clearly expounded by Krishna in the BG.


You must understand that both Purusha and Prakriti are without beginning.

Also, I think the quote Tandava made does not imply that the soul has a beginning.

MahaHrada
25 April 2012, 12:49 PM
Namaste Mahahrada,

Thank you for mentioning the traditional Shaiva Siddhanta view. I strongly doubted that the concept of old and young souls that the followers of the church talk about could be a traditional view of this sampradaya.

The Church of SS also promotes the idea of lower chakras similar to the puranic idea of the lower regions of the universe. Do you know whether this idea is already present in agamas and tantras, or is this also a new age invention?

I would recommend to ignore this "church" if one intends to learn about shaiva siddhanta or agamic teachings much of what is taught is highly misleading, in my opinion. Of course this is a new age invention, not that adharas, (body regions) or chakras relate to lokas, but the idea that lower chakras are connected with vices, and higher with virtues, some of the highest attainments are achieved by Kriyas that relate to lower chakras. So there is no sequence of attainments ranging from lower to higher when meditations are done on the chakras. Besides that, underworlds are not lokas for lesser evolved beings or hells, but quite the contrary, some of the dwellers in the patala are more evolved than those of the higher regions. Ideas of young and old souls are culled from theosophy. It must be obvious, even to those of lower intellect that no teaching of hinduism, regardless wheter dvaita or advaita makes any sense if the atman is not eternal, beginningless and without end as well as related in some way to the absolute.

"The Muni Nárada, after his return from those regions to the skies declared amongst the celestials that Pátála was much more delightful than Indra's heaven. "What," exclaimed the sage, "can be compared to Pátála, where the Nágas are decorated with brilliant and beautiful and pleasure-shedding jewels? who will not delight in Pátála, where the lovely daughters of the Daityas and Dánavas wander about, fascinating even the most austere; where the rays of the sun diffuse light, and not heat, by day; and where the moon shines by night for illumination, not for cold; where the sons of Danu, happy in the enjoyment of delicious viands and strong wines, know not how time passes? There are beautiful groves and streams and lakes where the lotus blows; and the skies are resonant with the Koïl's song. Splendid ornaments, fragrant perfumes, rich unguents, the blended music of the lute and pipe and tabor; these and many other enjoyments are the common portion of the Dánavas, Daityas, and snake-gods, who inhabit the regions of Pátála"

see this thread:
http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showthread.php?p=79644#post79644
To not hijack this interesting thread if you have further questions we can continue at that location.

wundermonk
25 April 2012, 12:51 PM
Throwing this thought into the mix.

What is the meaning of "beginningless"ness? What does Hinduism mean when it says the universe, prakriti, jivas, karma, bondage, etc. are "beginningless"?

One meaning could be:

(1)An infinite past.

Yet another meaning could be:

(2)A finite past but still uncaused.

So, in either case, God, universe, prakriti, jivas, karma, bondage etc. are uncaused. They always were.

Tāṇḍava
25 April 2012, 01:07 PM
I think the concept of an eternal soul is clearly expounded by Krishna in the BG.



Also, I think the quote Tandava made does not imply that the soul has a beginning.

However the idea of souls being contunuosly created and destroyed is not new to Hinduism. The tirumantiram says (http://www.himalayanacademy.com/resources/books/tirumantiram/TantraEight.html):


2369 Jiva's Journey to Liberation is Lord's Play

In the Primal Play of Lord
Were Jivas created;
Enveloped in mighty Malas were they;
Discarding them,
They realized the Self,
And besought the Feet
Of their hoary Lord;
Thus, they Siva became
With birth no more to be.

MahaHrada
25 April 2012, 01:19 PM
However the idea of souls being contunuosly created and destroyed is not new to Hinduism. The tirumantiram says (http://www.himalayanacademy.com/resources/books/tirumantiram/TantraEight.html):


2369 Jiva's Journey to Liberation is Lord's Play

In the Primal Play of Lord
Were Jivas created;
Enveloped in mighty Malas were they;
Discarding them,
They realized the Self,
And besought the Feet
Of their hoary Lord;
Thus, they Siva became
With birth no more to be.

These are misquotations and misunderstandings or even deliberate mistranslations. Not a single teaching of Hinduism makes sense if the atman is not eternal beginningless and without end how can there be self realisation or moksha if the self is perishable and has a beginning or an end? These concepts are part of other world religions but are no part of Hinduism. Consult other Shaiva Siddhanta teachers and sources than this new age "church" this will end the confusion.

Jiva is forever one with Shiva and realisation of this unity (or advaitam) happens when the malas i.e maya shakti is overcome, so this verse states that the self, the atman is eternal, not that it perishes. Creation (or whatever the correct translations of the tamil word really means that is used here) is not creation out of nothing, it means here and generally in the agamas and tantras that by the force of tirodhana shakti, which is Maya the veiling power, the jiva appears in the foreground which means one temporarily "forgets" the true nature of the self, that one is " advaitam" non dual with shiva and by the power of anugraha shakti one remembers this unity.
Of course nowhere in this process of veiling and revealing his true nature, the atman is created or perishes.

wundermonk
25 April 2012, 01:46 PM
However the idea of souls being contunuosly created and destroyed is not new to Hinduism. The tirumantiram says (http://www.himalayanacademy.com/resources/books/tirumantiram/TantraEight.html):


2369 Jiva's Journey to Liberation is Lord's Play

In the Primal Play of Lord
Were Jivas created;
Enveloped in mighty Malas were they;
Discarding them,
They realized the Self,
And besought the Feet
Of their hoary Lord;
Thus, they Siva became
With birth no more to be.

"Creation" in Hinduism is more manifestation of the unmanifest. The anology being, the sun shines to reveal itself as well as other pre-existing things.

This is explained in the Brahma Sutra in the section dealing with the ascription of cruelty and partiality to God. See here (http://www.swami-krishnananda.org/bs_2/bs_2-1-12.html).

Divine Kala
25 April 2012, 05:01 PM
(2)The universe does NOT have an infinite past but time itself began with the Big Bang. Now, if this is proven true, then clearly, the concept of beginningless Karma takes a hit. But proving that time itself began with the Big Bang is not that trivial. This (http://hindudharmaforums.com/showthread.php?t=8900) post may be of interest.


If time began with the big bang we must also consider that it is only time for this universe. Who is to say time did not exist in the last universe? Perhaps time can only exist with a universe that Brahman is beyond time as well as acting within it.

It could also be said that time is a play of God. In the final dissolution, when everything is drawn back into God, time ceases to be because it loses all relevance. It only has relevance for those who are aware of it and while God may be aware of time, time really has no power over God.

Seeker
25 April 2012, 09:39 PM
Throwing this thought into the mix.

What is the meaning of "beginningless"ness? What does Hinduism mean when it says the universe, prakriti, jivas, karma, bondage, etc. are "beginningless"?

One meaning could be:

(1)An infinite past.

Yet another meaning could be:

(2)A finite past but still uncaused.

So, in either case, God, universe, prakriti, jivas, karma, bondage etc. are uncaused. They always were.

Wonderful thread Wundermonk.

Scientists say that time is a dimension like space. In a two dimentional world , one of the space dimensions doesnt exist. may be Brahman resides (for lack of a better term) in a place where time ceases to be a dimension.

Coming to your main topic, I could think of one scenario

- scientists make it possible for humans to live forever without any degeneration or vigor

charitra
25 April 2012, 11:17 PM
These are misquotations and misunderstandings or even deliberate mistranslations. Not a single teaching of Hinduism makes sense if the atman is not eternal beginningless and without end how can there be self realisation or moksha if the self is perishable and has a beginning or an end? Of course nowhere in this process of veiling and revealing his true nature, the atman is created or perishes.


To me the argument has to do more with the semantics and less to dowith the conceptualization about the fate of Atman.. Atman transcends janma andmerges with Brahman and as a result Atman (by rejoining Brahman and as a partof THAT and) once for all irreversibly out of JIVA and thus without anymore attachment losing all identity it becomes eternal. Yes there is nophysical destruction per se of Atman at all, for it has no physical nature tobegin with. Its independent identity with a jiva is what we call birth and death,a misnomer obviously, in reality there is neither (birth or death for It). Namaste.

Excerpts from MundakaUpanishad. (II.ii.1 – III. ii. 11)are as follows: “ This Atman ,resplendent and pure, whom the sinless sannyasins behold residing within thebody, is attained by unceasing practice of truthfulness, austerity, right knowledge,and continence. ……That subtle Atman is to be known by the intellect here in thebody where the prana has entered five fold. When intellect is purified Atmanshines forth……He, the knower of the Self, knows that supreme abode of Brahman, which shinesbrightly and in which the universe rests. Those wise men who, free from desires, worship such a person transcend the seed ofbirth…….

The Atman cannot be attained by(mere) study of vedas……..He who chooses Atman- by him alone Atman is attained.It is Atman that reveals to the seeker Its true nature. …a wise man striving bystrength and earnestness , his soul enters theAbode of Brahman. Having realized Atman, theseer becomes satisfied with that knowledge. Their souls established in theSupreme Self, they are free from passions, and they are tranquil in mind. Such calm souls, ever devoted to the self, behold everywherethe omnipresent Brahman and in the end enter into It, which is all this…..

Having well ascertained theSelf, the goal of vedantic knowledge, and having purified their minds throughthe practice of sannyasa, the seers never relaxing their efforts, enjoy heresupreme Immortality and at the time of great end attain complete freedom in Brahman.

As flowing rivers disappear in thesea, losing their names and forms, so a wise man, freed from name and form,attain the Purusha, who is greater than the Great. He who knows Supreme Brahmanverily becomes Brahman. …He overcomes grief, evil, free from fretters of theheart, he become Immortal.”

charitra
25 April 2012, 11:23 PM
Wunder, if there indeed is a beginning then there ought be be an end to it. So the big bang applies to our own universe not to many more other universes that are coexisting in various stages of evolution around it. MULTIVERSE is the name of the game these days.This, which we call Shristi, is cyclical in existence and is certainly not linear. The collective intelligence of the entire human race from its inception till its demise (remember dinosaurs are extinct) cannot crack the code of Shristi. The parameters are infinite that is the only reason why we cannt ever explain it. Infinite is simply inexplicable.

Adhvagat
26 April 2012, 05:17 AM
I would recommend to ignore this "church" if one intends to learn about shaiva siddhanta or agamic teachings much of what is taught is highly misleading, in my opinion. Of course this is a new age invention, not that adharas, (body regions) or chakras relate to lokas, but the idea that lower chakras are connected with vices, and higher with virtues, some of the highest attainments are achieved by Kriyas that relate to lower chakras. So there is no sequence of attainments ranging from lower to higher when meditations are done on the chakras. Besides that, underworlds are not lokas for lesser evolved beings or hells, but quite the contrary, some of the dwellers in the patala are more evolved than those of the higher regions. Ideas of young and old souls are culled from theosophy. It must be obvious, even to those of lower intellect that no teaching of hinduism, regardless wheter dvaita or advaita makes any sense if the atman is not eternal, beginningless and without end as well as related in some way to the absolute.

"The Muni Nárada, after his return from those regions to the skies declared amongst the celestials that Pátála was much more delightful than Indra's heaven. "What," exclaimed the sage, "can be compared to Pátála, where the Nágas are decorated with brilliant and beautiful and pleasure-shedding jewels? who will not delight in Pátála, where the lovely daughters of the Daityas and Dánavas wander about, fascinating even the most austere; where the rays of the sun diffuse light, and not heat, by day; and where the moon shines by night for illumination, not for cold; where the sons of Danu, happy in the enjoyment of delicious viands and strong wines, know not how time passes? There are beautiful groves and streams and lakes where the lotus blows; and the skies are resonant with the Koďl's song. Splendid ornaments, fragrant perfumes, rich unguents, the blended music of the lute and pipe and tabor; these and many other enjoyments are the common portion of the Dánavas, Daityas, and snake-gods, who inhabit the regions of Pátála"

see this thread:
http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showthread.php?p=79644#post79644
To not hijack this interesting thread if you have further questions we can continue at that location.

Do you have pratyaksha of these lokas or are you speaking of convention?

MahaHrada
26 April 2012, 10:22 AM
To me the argument has to do more with the semantics and less to do with the conceptualization about the fate of Atman. Atman transcends janma and merges with Brahman and as a result Atman (by rejoining Brahman and as a part of THAT and) once for all irreversibly out of JIVA and thus without anymore attachment losing all identity it becomes eternal. Yes there is nophysical destruction per se of Atman at all, for it has no physical nature tobegin with. Its independent identity with a jiva is what we call birth and death,a misnomer obviously, in reality there is neither (birth or death for It). Namaste.

]Excerpts from MundakaUpanishad. (II.ii.1 – III. ii. 11)are as follows: [/COLOR][COLOR=#0070C0] “ This Atman ,resplendent and pure, whom the sinless sannyasins behold residing within thebody, is attained by unceasing practice of truthfulness, austerity, right knowledge,and continence. ……That subtle Atman is to be known by the intellect here in thebody where the prana has entered five fold. When intellect is purified Atmanshines forth…
Namaste

The Manduka Upanishad does teach the immortality and eternality of the atman and the non duality of the jiva with the absolute. The same teaching is expressed in the Tirumantiram.

To interpret these shastras to mean that the jivas and the atman are created out of nothing at a certain time, by shiva or the absolute and will perish and merge into shiva or the absolute at some later point in time, implying among other things that there are old and young souls, created with a date of expiration, is a misunderstanding.

Atman is not "rejoining Brahman", it is non dual with Brahman. Even Shaiva Siddhanta teachers like Meykandar commonly understood as a dualistic tradition say that Shiva is advaitam, that means non dual, with the Jiva. In Hinduism the self does not perish and there is also no point in time which marks the creation of a jiva or atman such acts are only envisioned in other world religions like Christianity, Islam or Buddhism.
Atman never "looses all identity" since the activity of shakti will continously veil and reveal the true (non dual) nature of the absolute in an ever ongoing process of expansion and contraction in cosmic cycles. Revealation or Veiling of its true nature does not change the atman or the jiva it only impacts his self reflection, since by its very nature it is beyond change.

charitra
26 April 2012, 11:49 AM
[quote=MahaHrada;82530]
"The Mandukya Upanishad does teach the immortality and eternality of the atman and the non duality of the jiva with the absolute. The same teaching is expressed in the Tirumantiram."

Iam talking about Mundaka , please note it if you dont mind.
What part of my post mentioned shiva or the sampradaya that preaches the same? Mundaka doesnt mention shiva or vishnu, it describes only Brahman.

"Atman is not "rejoining Brahman", it is non dual with Brahman. "

Please read the last paragraph of of my post, see the analogy of a river joining a sea, both are made of H2 O, water, it is the container or the banks and shores taht are giving us this delusion the 2 are different. It would be nice at this stage if you may please explain the 'end of journey for a jivatma', try to quote the shastras from this moment forward, for iam keen to learn the shastras, time permitting of course. Otherwise the debate will be reduced to a mere personal opinion, in which case i shall excuse myself from the discussion...Now, duality is from the seer point of view so long as as there is an impermanent annamaya kosha associated with Atman (or vice versa), in practical terms there is a 'seeming' duality that goes with it. Atman is not physically separate from Brahman, both Atman and Brahman (in this case) are nirguna or attributeless.


"Atman never "looses all identity" since the activity of shakti will continously veil and reveal the true (non dual) nature of the absolute in an ever ongoing process of expansion and contraction in cosmic cycles. Revealation or Veiling of its true nature does not change the atman or the jiva it only impacts his self reflection, since by its very nature it is beyond change."

Atman, yes indeed never looses its oneness with Brahman. Because all that is permanent has to directly originate and be part of Brahman and is otherwise inseparable or non-dual. Would like to know your definition of moksha or mukti, again quote the shastra of your choice. Namaste.
/quote]

MahaHrada
26 April 2012, 12:47 PM
What part of my post mentioned shiva or the sampradaya that preaches the same? Mundaka doesnt mention shiva or vishnu, it describes only Brahman.

Please read the thread again and argue with the shaiva "church" why they used the quote to explain their new age shaivaite teachings or adress Tandava not me. I mention this because of the topic of this thread and of the context of my posting on which you commented. Let me repeat the context for you: Tandava doubted that the eternality of the soul is common to all Hindu darshanas as was proposed by the o.p. and cited the Mundaka upanishad as quoted by an article about the teachings of an american shaiva "church." This thread and our discussion is about the Mundaka upanishad in the context of the interpretation of this american shaiva church. If you want to discuss the teachings of the Mundaka upanishad per se, you have to open another thread.


Please read the last paragraph of of my post, see the analogy of a river joining a sea, both are made....Otherwise the debate will be reduced to a mere personal opinion, in which case i shall excuse myself from the discussion...

This kind request of a discussion of my opinions about atman or the Mundaka upanishad also cannot happen in this thread for the same reason i wrote before, it is way off topic, the topic here is to discuss wether we can find "defeaters" for the following statements that are common to all Hindu darshanas, i quote the o.p.


(1)Existence of a soul/self.
(2)Existence of an afterlife for the soul/self.
(3)The universe has an infinite past. The entire universe goes through cycles of "creation" and "dissolution" but the same material cause/souls are reused across cycles. The souls have beginningless Karma.
(4)There is no "end" state for the universe.




Atman, yes indeed never looses its oneness with Brahman. Because all that is permanent has to directly originate and be part of Brahman and is otherwise inseparable or non-dual. Would like to know your definition of moksha or mukti, again quote the shastra of your choice.

My opinions about Moksha are also off topic and do not belong in this thread. The intention of my postings here is to establish that the idea that the following cited statement is common to all traditions of Hinduism, is valid.



(3)The universe has an infinite past. The entire universe goes through cycles of "creation" and "dissolution" but the same material cause/souls are reused across cycles. The souls have beginningless Karma.

If you agree with this than our discussion is about a non-issue.

I also refuted the following opinion of Tandava quoted from the american shaiva "church" that there exist traditions in Hinduism that teach that souls are created and perish. These are not hindu teachings but stem from a new age "church"



However the idea of souls being contunuosly created and destroyed is not new to Hinduism. The tirumantiram says:
2369 Jiva's Journey to Liberation is Lord's Play
In the Primal Play of Lord
Were Jivas created; ...

and:


This would not be a problem for me, in fact I think it would only be an isue for the strictest dvaita philosophy. Saiva Siddhanta teaches that souls emerge from Shiva and return to him:


If you disagree with the above statements our discussion is about a non-issue. I assume you agreed since you said that this is a semantic difference only. This is by no means only a semantic problem but most certainly one of differences in the interpretations of both the Tirumantiram and the Manduka Upanishad and since you agree that the Upanishad teaches the eternality of the atman, therefore also for you, the objective of this thread, looking for defeaters of the above thesis is valid and should not be doubted. Any discussions beyond that do not belong in this thread.

Seeker123
26 April 2012, 01:00 PM
It would be nice at this stage if you may please explain the 'end of journey for a jivatma'

Paramatma = Consciousness, Jivatma = reflected consciousness. Please see Swami Paramarthananda's explanation. You can google for full talk.


"The entire universe is like a big asvatha tree. Brahman is its root. Brahman is changeless, attribute less, non material consciousness which is not available for experiencing as an object. It is all pervasive like space. All pervasive consciousness Paramatma reflected in the mind is called Jivatma. Mind lends consciousness to the body. Only wise people understand that the all pervasive consciousness is available as Jivatma. Every living being should undergo certain amount of pleasures and pains. Until the exhaustion of the allotted experiences, the body and mind will be together. After that Jivatma pulls the mind out of the body and leaves the body. Jivatma travels and takes the next body."


So Moksha/Jnana is nothing but the firm realization that there is nothing but consciosness. In Nirvikalpa Samadhi thoughts cease, mind stops. The distinction between seer, seen, seeing is gone. then what is left? the reflected consciousness which is nothing but the original consciousness.

wundermonk
07 May 2012, 03:43 AM
scientists make it possible for humans to live forever without any degeneration or vigor

That would be boring no? :D

Age would lose its significance. I will be as old as my father, my mother, my son, my daughter, etc.?

wundermonk
07 May 2012, 03:46 AM
4-cloning ...cloning from body tissue apart from germ cells

In general, I think you may mean abiogenesis, yes?

Yes, I DO think that would be a defeater for Hinduism. If consciousness is an emergent property of matter, then the concept of self/soul as separate from matter can be laid to rest.

Tāṇḍava
07 May 2012, 03:57 AM
In general, I think you may mean abiogenesis, yes?

Yes, I DO think that would be a defeater for Hinduism. If consciousness is an emergent property of matter, then the concept of self/soul as separate from matter can be laid to rest.

Not necessarily. It could be a property of souls that they take presence in matter whenever it takes a suitable form.

wundermonk
07 May 2012, 04:20 AM
Not necessarily. It could be a property of souls that they take presence in matter whenever it takes a suitable form.

Possible. Yes. But is not there already a branch of science that holds that mind-body dualism is dead?

devotee
07 May 2012, 04:32 AM
Namaste WM,



Some possible defeaters that can be raised are:

(1)evolution - I cannot speak for others, but I find no reason why this would be a defeater for Hinduism. I have rudimentary knowledge of evolution but can reconcile with theistic-guided evolution. Hinduism also has the concept of various avatars of Vishnu that can be reconciled with evolution.

How does theory of evolution contradict SD ? You yourself don't agree with it. The world is the creation of MAyA and the apparent veil has to be removed to see the Truth. The Conditioned Consciousness is trying to find its way to the Ultimate Reality. It is not at all necessary that a human being must be born alogwith this creation ... Advaita doesn't claim that. However, dualists' theory does get a hit like any other dualistic philosophy.

(2)The universe does NOT have an infinite past but time itself began with the Big Bang. Now, if this is proven true, then clearly, the concept of beginningless Karma takes a hit. But proving that time itself began with the Big Bang is not that trivial. This (http://hindudharmaforums.com/showthread.php?t=8900) post may be of interest.[/quote]

What is Universe ? Science says that there is nothing which can be created out of "nothing". If that is true, there can't be an Absolute beginning of anything ... that is what Advaita says.


(3)Consciousness is an emergent property of living things. Per Hinduism, consciousness is the very essence of the soul or else it is considered a property of the soul. Hinduism accords special importance to the existence of a self and its relationship to consciousness. Now, if it is proven that consciousness is nothing sui-generis, it is indeed a defeater for Hinduism.


Here, science is far behind our Rishis. The Consciousness is not the sole property of so-called "living things". If you see analytically, even a piece of stone must have consciousness to make sure that the Laws of Universal Gravitation is observed without fail. No one knows how even the last known particles of the atomic structure behaves exactly as per the Laws governing at that level if these are not conscious. Again, when form of matter is changed to other ... how does it acquire property as per the known nature of the new form. Where is this information stored if there is no Consciousness in matter. But where is the Consciousness ? Where is it stored ? We don't know. However, if we accept the Advaita's position that Consciousness alone is everything then the seemingly impossible-to-solve-mystery gets solved.

Therefore, none of the above can be defeaters for Hinduism. :)

OM