Mind and Brain

[AmIHindu]

Namaste all,

I am writing this to get some more leaning about what is called Mind and what is called Brain. We know psychiatrist treats out brain. We have all seen many photos of brain, if we go to hospitals we can get a chance to see brain, doctors operate on brain, so they have seen alive brain. Some times brain commands what we say some time it works on its own. For example, if we want to pick up a pen, then through eyes, nerves, brain, processor in brain, back to nerve again to hand and we pick pen. This is how brain obeys our commands. Now there are many functions which are done without our commands. For example, if unknowingly we put our and on gas stove, brain reacts very fast, it doesn't wait for us to follow through communication channel but it orders commands to hand to take itself off off the gas stove. This is something which I know about brain.

Now about Mind, what is mind !! I know very little about mind. I am not sure if I have seen any photo of mind, and do not know exact place of mind in head. Desires are mind !! If I have desire to eat ice-cream, so that desire is called my mind ? I got angry on someone, it is described as, I lost control over my mind and slapped him. If we try to sit down for chanting but we will not be able to pay attention to mantra because there comes thought after thought, so where those thoughts comes from ? All these thoughts originate from mind ? Brain can obeys our commands in many cases, does mind obeys any of our command ? How fear something and many things, how this fear come in our mind ? , see here I use fear some in our mind. So how and from where fear enters our mind ?
Some people are strong willed people, so they are called strong minded people ? People are practical, so how I can relation their mind to their practicality.

[devotee]

Namaste AIH,

Brain is an instrument through which the individualised consciousness operates. However, brain is not the only instrument. Some actions are performed even without involving brain like the hand-on-stove example. The instruction for removing your hand from fire doesn't come from brain here. This decision is taken within our spinal chord. Again there are various cells which function as individual entity having their own consciousness, imo, their actions too are not decided by brain.

Mind is individualised conditioned Consciousness.

OM

[kallol]

Dear AIH,

As I understand.

The 5 senses in our body are only bring the information. The brain (like CPU) is processing the data.

Now without the monitor and the user can any decision be taken ? No.

Mind is the monitir screen and the the decision maker.

Once decision is taken the signal goes back to brain to process and direct the action organs to react.

Body is the car. The driver is the mind.

Now some decisions are automated, even the mind does not know. Those are the internal functions.

Some decisions are artificially embedded by practice / teaching. That is why even though you are on phone, you can reach your home safely.

Some decisions are safety / security related where it hits the panic button. At that time it is sense and react only. The planning / analysisng part is removed.

Generally for human, it is Learn, Sense, Plan, React. The plan part relates to the mind-brain function.

Hope it helps in your understanding.

The driver of the body is mind. The enabler of the mind is consciousness.

[AmIHindu]

Namaste AIH,

Mind is individualised conditioned Consciousness.

OM

Namaste,

Please be kind enough to share some more thoughts on this.
Is it okay to understand that mind is consciousness ? I guess mind doesn't exist in our physical body it may reside in our subtle body.


kallol
Body is the car. The driver is the mind.
Some drivers/minds can open and fix car/life, this is good for car mechanics but what about some drives/mind who just drive their car in a deep valley.

[kallol]

Namaste,
Some drivers/minds can open and fix car/life, this is good for car mechanics but what about some drives/mind who just drive their car in a deep valley.

Dear AIH,

Regarding opening the car the driver is not a driver but a mechanic (analogy is a doctor).

What does deep valley imply ? Please elaborate.

Analogies are generally taken for unique feature and not all aspects.

When someone says Mr X is the pillar of his organization, it does not mean he is literally the column of the building. It means that his contribution is of utmost importance to the organisation.

When an analogy is given keep it simple and extract the essence. Going into all aspects of the example defeats the purpose.

[devotee]

Namaste AIH,



Please be kind enough to share some more thoughts on this.
Is it okay to understand that mind is consciousness ? I guess mind doesn't exist in our physical body it may reside in our subtle body.


Mind is nothing but Consciousness and it doesn't depend upon the body to function. The body is dependent on mind to function. You are nothing but mind alone. Now, this Mind works at two level : One is the Cosmic Mind i.e. the Unified undifferentiated Consciousness i.e. God which is also called the Pure Consciousness. Pure Consciousness when tinged with vibration of desires apparently creates dream-like world with infinite individualised Consciousness which manifest as "I", "you", "He", "She", "It", "They" in this phenomenal world.

Your entity as "you" is nothing but mind alone. Though apparently limited by the body, this mind of yours is not limited by the body ... it only appears as so. You are both inside and outside of this body. Before birth you were "mind" (individualised consciousness) and after death i.e.e after destruction of this body you will again be a disembodied mind. This mind takes different bodies for fulfilling its desires and for tasting the fruits of its Karmas.

OM

[Spiritualseeker]

Namaste,

Thank you Devotee for that answer. I would like to see if I am understanding correctly. From this Pure Consciousness as you said when tinged with desire makes many dream worlds and we could say dream bodies. Its this maya. It creates this "i" "You" , "we", etc.. The "i" or "mind" is before the body and thus for example a near death experience one says that "I" had this experience outside of body, yet comes back to the body. This shows that there is no bodily limitation for this mind. The mind itself is thought, thinking, and the I is thoughts believing itself to be a true entity and thus suffering occurs and the "I" am a body belief becomes firm and causes an illusion, though despite ego or non-ego the Pure Consciousness is always there as Awareness-Bliss seeing the Mind manifest. Is this a correct picture of what you are saying?


Om Namah Shivaya

[devotee]

You got it right, SS ! :)

OM

[Spiritualseeker]

Thanks devotee :)

Om Namah Shivaya

[AmIHindu]

Namaste Devotee ji,

My thinking was like when Mind end, consciousness starts. It is the same as you said, when mind gets matured it end here and consciousness start, or if I say in other word, it is the same mind whose name is changed to consciousness upon getting knowledge. Mind is covered with maya when maya is removed it becomes consciousness.

Thank to all of you for reply.

[yajvan]

hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

namasté devotee



Mind is nothing but Consciousness and it doesn't depend upon the body to function. The body is dependent on mind to function.

Let me as you for your opinion on this...
is the mind influenced by the body ?

praṇām

[devotee]

Namaste AIH,



My thinking was like when Mind end, consciousness starts. It is the same as you said, when mind gets matured it end here and consciousness start, or if I say in other word, it is the same mind whose name is changed to consciousness upon getting knowledge. Mind is covered with maya when maya is removed it becomes consciousness.


There needs a light correction, if I understand your position correctly. Mind too is "Consciousness" alone but not in its primal "pure" form. It is Conditioned Consciousness with desires/past impressions/ego etc. When this conditioning goes, the Mind ends. When the mind ends, "Self" or the Untainted Mind or Pure Consciousness shines forth.

OM

[devotee]

Namaste Yajvan,



Let me as you for your opinion on this...
is the mind influenced by the body ?

praṇām


Answering question to so much knowledgeable member on this forum has filled me with some self-doubts. :) However, my answer is :

When you use "mind" in lower case, I would assume, "Individualised Consciousness" i.e. "mind of devotee", "mind of Yajvan" etc. If we are talking of that mind, then my answer is "Yes"( to a certain extent depending upon the spiritual evolution of mind). Why ? Because this mind is born due to attachment to individuality (for satisfying its desires etc.). Stronger the attachment, more is the influence of the body on the mind. Let's us picturise some situations : When we are hungry and going to die with hunger, when we are thirsty and going to die due to intense thirst, when we are going to burn in blazing fire, being operated under knife without anesthesia (i.e. unbearable painful conditions) etc. etc. ... do our values remain the same in all situations ? Certainly not. So, the body does influence mind ... the weak mind. However, as a person progresses spiritually, the mind becomes stronger and starts looking itself separate from the body and gets lesser and lesser influenced by changing conditions of the body ... a time comes when mind is not at all influenced by the condition of the body when he person becomes fully detached from the body-mind nexus.

OM

[rkpande]

no body is talking about budhhi.
does budhhi has any control over mind?
OR ahemkara, for that matter.
is budhhi different than brain?

[devotee]

no body is talking about budhhi.
does budhhi has any control over mind?
OR ahemkara, for that matter.
is budhhi different than brain?

Buddhi and AhamkAr have no separate existence from mind. These arise within mind. Actually, "Mun" (pronounced as Sun) is not the correct translation of mind and if someone translates it like hat, I am not talking about "Mun" in this thread.

OM

[silence_speaks]

Hi Friends,
:) I am new to the forum, so first of all "Hi All ! " .

Brain is basically the physical instrument. When considering mind, we need to include the entire neural system, which is basically the neural network itself.

to understand what mind is, lets first understand whats happening in brain.
Lets say i see a flower. The light from the rose falls on my retina. When this happens a few neurons there get fired [note: light is energy and then it excites these neurons].

The neurons are all in networks. Between two neurons there may be either a positive correspondance or a negative correspondance. That means, imagine a network of nodes , each node representing a neuron. between two nodes there is a weight which is either positive or negative.

so when a neuron n1 is excited, and weight between n1 and n2 is positive, n1 excites n2 also.
if weight between n1 and n2 is negative, n1 inhibits n2 from firing.

so neurons keep exciting some neurons and inhibiting some other neurons... and so on. this goes on for some time until the neural network finally converges to a "Stable State" --- where some neurons are excited and some others are not excited.

this state is when we say "Oh! its a Rose".

The neural state ... which is set of all neurons that are excited is the physical thing... and "Oh! its a rose" is mental recongition. There is a one-one correspondance between these two.

now. neuro scientists dont know what mind is. they only know brain. And then the feeling "i saw a rose" is in some way associated with the neural state. The neural state is simply static and the feeling associated with this is called qualia. neuro scientists still have no clue abt what this is.

While this is so, whats also not clear is ... whether mind functions and its functions are reflected in the physical equipment or vice versa :) -- or may be both ways !!

The same problem is seen with reference to consciousness also. Science is yet to arrive at what consciousness is.
They are investigating by saying that when a certain portion of the brain is "awake or ignited, ie, the neurons are active", there is consciousness and when they are not, there is no consciousness :).

But then, they are not sure as to if the consciousness, when its reflected in brain those areas are active or vice versa :)

ITs like : there is a bulb, thats on some tiems and off some otehr times. What scientists are saying is when ever the bulb's filament is connected, there is electricity.
what vedantins say is when there is electricity, if the filament is connected there is light, and electricity is not created by the interconnection of the filament.

[yajvan]

hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

namasté devotee



When you use "mind" in lower case, I would assume, "Individualised Consciousness" i.e. "mind of devotee", "mind of Yajvan" etc. If we are talking of that mind, then my answer is "Yes"( to a certain extent depending upon the spiritual evolution of mind). Why ? Because this mind is born due to attachment to individuality (for satisfying its desires etc.). Stronger the attachment, more is the influence of the body on the mind. Let's us picturise some situations : When we are hungry and going to die with hunger, when we are thirsty and going to die due to intense thirst, when we are going to burn in blazing fire, being operated under knife without anesthesia (i.e. unbearable painful conditions) etc. etc. ... do our values remain the same in all situations ? Certainly not. So, the body does influence mind ... the weak mind. However, as a person progresses spiritually, the mind becomes stronger and starts looking itself separate from the body and gets lesser and lesser influenced by changing conditions of the body ... a time comes when mind is not at all influenced by the condition of the body when he person becomes fully detached from the body-mind nexus.

I believe you have done a fine level of reasoning in your answer.. the body affects the mind, and the mind affects the body. This is the human condition. And as you mention, as one evolves the influence becomes less when the person associates and identifies with the Self.

praṇām

[kallol]

hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

namasté devotee



Let me as you for your opinion on this...
is the mind influenced by the body ?

praṇām


As all the minds contribute towards the mind of God, the minds of the cells contribute towards the mind of organ and minds of organ contribute towards the mind of Human.

This phenomemnon moves on to society to country to region to world and beyond.

So yes, as per my understanding, mind and body influence each other.

[AmIHindu]

Namaste AIH,



There needs a light correction, if I understand your position correctly. Mind too is "Consciousness" alone but not in its primal "pure" form. It is Conditioned Consciousness with desires/past impressions/ego etc. When this conditioning goes, the Mind ends. When the mind ends, "Self" or the Untainted Mind or Pure Consciousness shines forth.

OM


Till my last post I was thinking that there is only one thing, either mind or consciousness. Let me explain with example. In thermometer when it show -25 degree it is called cold and when it shows 120 degree it is hot. So when it is, we call mind when we are on -25 degree on scale of our spirituality and when it it hits 120 degree it is consciousness. So when -25 - cold it can not be consciousness - hot. so both mind and consciousness do not co-exits

But since today morning I was thinking about this only, now I think mind and consciousness co-exits. I read somewhere that mind has a tremendous power. when we get those power, we also have consciousness. I also read that how our mind should be, if we pour water from one vessel to other, and check the flow of water, now pour oil from one vessel to other and check the flow of water. So our mind should be like flow of water.

But it was nice discussion about mind.

Do we experience mind or do we get to see mind when we get consciousness or realization ? May be this is stupid question.

[devotee]

Till my last post I was thinking that there is only one thing, either mind or consciousness. Let me explain with example. In thermometer when it show -25 degree it is called cold and when it shows 120 degree it is hot. So when it is, we call mind when we are on -25 degree on scale of our spirituality and when it it hits 120 degree it is consciousness. So when -25 - cold it can not be consciousness - hot. so both mind and consciousness do not co-exits

But since today morning I was thinking about this only, now I think mind and consciousness co-exits. I read somewhere that mind has a tremendous power. when we get those power, we also have consciousness. I also read that how our mind should be, if we pour water from one vessel to other, and check the flow of water, now pour oil from one vessel to other and check the flow of water. So our mind should be like flow of water.

But it was nice discussion about mind.

Do we experience mind or do we get to see mind when we get consciousness or realization ? May be this is stupid question.

When you say, I am conscious, what do you really mean ?

OM

[kallol]

My understanding is that all states of experience are step approach. The substratum step is the consciousness. That has independent existence. Next is the subtle matters and it's universe. This is a dependent state. It has consciousness and subtle matter. Next state is gross matter and gross universe. This is another dependent state, which has consciousness and subtle world to sustain it.

So all these states stay together and gets to this manifested universe.

[AmIHindu]

When you say, I am conscious, what do you really mean ?

OM

When I say I am conscious, I mean to say self realized.

[devotee]

Namaste AIH,


When I say I am conscious, I mean to say self realized.

No, you have gone a little ahead of the stage. Conscious is simply what is aware . How do we cognise anything whether gross or subtle ? We do it because of consciousness within us. How do you differentiate yourself from "other" ... because of consciousness. This Consciousness that I am talking about is Mind and has three distinct aspects : Mun, Buddhi and AhamkAr. "Mun" is simply the Cogniser and retains impressions. Buddhi is Intellect which analyses and takes decision based on its analysis. AhamkAr is the feeling which makes you feel different from the other. If this AhamkAr is not there, your existence as you ceases to exist.

Self-realisation is something different. We can discuss it sometime later.

OM

[kallol]

Namaste AIH,



No, you have gone a little ahead of the stage. Conscious is simply what is aware . How do we cognise anything whether gross or subtle ? We do it because of consciousness within us. How do you differentiate yourself from "other" ... because of consciousness. This Consciousness that I am talking about is Mind and has three distinct aspects : Mun, Buddhi and AhamkAr. "Mun" is simply the Cogniser and retains impressions. Buddhi is Intellect which analyses and takes decision based on its analysis. AhamkAr is the feeling which makes you feel different from the other. If this AhamkAr is not there, your existence as you ceases to exist.

Self-realisation is something different. We can discuss it sometime later.

OM

Devoteeji,

When you say buddhi, do you mean to say physical brain ? If yes how can brain take decision ?

If you say buddhi as the subtle buddhi, then it becomes part of mun as mun is the subtle world comrpising of many elements (like the drivers for senses, drivers for buddhi, characteristics, etc).

We can compare the system to any intelligent system we build, where there are sensors, processors, actuators, controls, intelligence, power, etc.

Power is the consciousness, the soft part has drivers for all (physical part, logics, processors, actuators, etc) - this is the mind, then we have the physical system, which is the body.

[devotee]

Namaste Kallol,



When you say buddhi, do you mean to say physical brain ? If yes how can brain take decision ?

No. Brain is just an instrument through which the Buddhi operates. This Buddhi (like Mun and AhamkAr) survives death but the brain doesn't.


If you say buddhi as the subtle buddhi, then it becomes part of mun as mun is the subtle world comrpising of many elements (like the drivers for senses, drivers for buddhi, characteristics, etc).

Mun, Buddhi and AhamkAr have been traditionally considered the vital elements which make this Jeeva or the individualised Consciousness. These are not essentially different from each other because all the three are nothing but Consciousness alone. However, due to their different functions these have been described differently giving them three different names.


We can compare the system to any intelligent system we build, where there are sensors, processors, actuators, controls, intelligence, power, etc.

Power is the consciousness, the soft part has drivers for all (physical part, logics, processors, actuators, etc) - this is the mind, then we have the physical system, which is the body.

Let's consider CPU of a computer. This Computer is the artificial entity like Jeeva and its mind is CPU. This CPU can be seen as one entity CPU and can also be seen as combination of Memory, Arithmetical and Logical Unit and Control.

OM

[kallol]

If i see what is happening. Then i do not see my brain processing. I can only percieve when it comes to my mind and mind puts the analysis in some form which are supposed to be outcome of 5 senses. That is why the cpu part might be the brain. This is what i could understand.

The monitor and the person using the computer becomes the mind.

I understand that everything is consciousness but at purest form it cannot perform anything. It remains only as enabler.

The lower form of conciousness which are subtle and gross bodies have different charatrisctics. Just like when energy becomes different elements and elementals.

Mind comprises of many parts which moves from one body to another. How the same mind works when in inert body and when in plants or lower creatures or higher creatures also are interesting areas for analysis.