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IcyCosmic
29 April 2012, 04:29 PM
So I was going through the vedas and there are quotes like

"Andhatama pravishanti ye asambhuti mupaste"
"They enter darkness, those who worship the natural elements" (Air, Water, Fire, etc.). "They sink deeper in darkness, those who worship sambhuti."

Sambhuti being things like table, and such so wouldn't idol come into that?

Also in other parts of the vedas it says things similar to there is no image of him, he can not be seen, so and so forth

am I right in saying this is only referring to gods ultimate form or something similar which supercedes the tangible idols we worship not as an idol but image...
because certain islamic priests have been trying to convince me that even in hinduism it is forbidden to use idols, so and forth.

I'm pretty sure thats false but some further elaboration would be lovely, just to strengthen my knowledge

Eastern Mind
29 April 2012, 04:47 PM
Vannakkam Icy: That is my understanding as well ... 'that which is beyond form' . (Ironically) The Sivalingam is an attempt to represent this formless form, and one of the five elemental temples has 'nothing' there.

Aum Namasivaya

IcyCosmic
29 April 2012, 04:55 PM
Perplexing...makes perfect sense and no sense at the same time...
I don't know. I still have much to learn. :P

MahaHrada
29 April 2012, 05:53 PM
So I was going through the vedas and there are quotes like

"Andhatama pravishanti ye asambhuti mupaste"
"They enter darkness, those who worship the natural elements" (Air, Water, Fire, etc.). "They sink deeper in darkness, those who worship sambhuti."

Sambhuti being things like table, and such so wouldn't idol come into that?

Also in other parts of the vedas it says things similar to there is no image of him, he can not be seen, so and so forth

am I right in saying this is only referring to gods ultimate form or something similar which supercedes the tangible idols we worship not as an idol but image...
because certain islamic priests have been trying to convince me that even in hinduism it is forbidden to use idols, so and forth.

I'm pretty sure thats false but some further elaboration would be lovely, just to strengthen my knowledge

sambhUti : is used to refer to the created, manifested universe and

asambhUti : means not sambhUti. It is not in existence because it is unmanifest

It is only half of the verse translated and the meaning twisted. In the context this verse prohibits paying reverence to only one of the opposites alone, one has to realise the meaning of both. Vidya and Avidya, Sambhuti and Asambhuti to gain complete understanding and well being.

Ishaupanishad:

9. Those who worship Avidya only fall into
blind darkness. Those who worship Vidya only
fall into even greater darkness.

10. One thing, it is declared, is obtained from
Vidya and another from Avidya. Thus have we
heard from the wise who taught bodha to us.

11. He who knows simultaneously both Vidya
and Avidya overcomes death by Avidya and
attains immortality by Vidya

Here follows the twisted verse:
Andham tamah pravisantiye' sambhutu-mupsate. 
tato bhuya iva te tamo ya u sambhu-tyagm ratah

12. Those who worship Asambhuti fall into blind
darkness. Those who worship Sambhuti fall into
even greater darkness.

13. One thing, it is declared, is obtained from the
worship of Sambbuti and another from the
worship of Asambhuti. Thus have we heard
from the wise who taught us this.

14 He who worships Asambhuti and Sambhuti
simultaneously overcomes death by Sambhuti and
attains immortality by Asambhuti.

IcyCosmic
29 April 2012, 05:57 PM
I understand what is written...but forgive me I'm confused...

MahaHrada
29 April 2012, 06:10 PM
I understand what is written...but forgive me I'm confused...

It is not that hard each gives a different fruit, knowledge and worship of the formless is not complete, because we neglect and forget the blessing of that which has form, then when we only look after the temporary and that which has form, we neglect the eternal, this will also makes us suffer.

Same with knowledge and perfection and illusions and error, if we only care about perfecting knowledge and ignore the errors and imperfections we will also suffer in consequence.

Also the highest truth is beyond these human conceptions of form and formless, dharma and adharma, vidya and avidya and so forth. Sarvam khalvidam brahma – All this is verily Brahman.

Seeker
29 April 2012, 06:14 PM
IcySFX,

This could be due to the history.

The timing of the vedas coincide with aryan migration into indus valley, and they were known to worship elements (agni, vayu , varuna , indra etc..) and sacrifice animals on altar. Some Upanishads mention indra striking his enemies etc..

The pre-aryan people in Indus valley worshiped Siva in meditative form. There were several images recovered from Mohanjadaro & Harappa to this effect.

Vedas were composed during the time when the new migrants were fascinated by the natives worship and interpretations and were adapting to that.

These passages could be a result of that fusion.

MahaHrada
29 April 2012, 06:24 PM
and they were known to worship elements (agni, vayu , varuna , indra etc..) a.

But the text does not mention the worship of elements, this is an invention of the Muslims and it is a deliberate mistranslation that is viral in the net spreading from islamic and evangelical websites. The correct translation in the context of the isha Upanishad, mentions the worship or reverence of the formless (asambhuti) and that which has form (Sambhuti) of Knowledge (Vidya) and Illusions (Avidya) and criticises both types as incomplete without the other.

Seeker
29 April 2012, 06:47 PM
Thanks MH.

Appreciate the clarifications you have provided.

MahaHrada
29 April 2012, 06:59 PM
Thanks MH.

Appreciate the clarifications you have provided.

No problem you are welcome ;) i have no lexicon of sanskrit roots on my desk but i guess the roots are: bhuta is element and sam means union-compound, so sambhuta is an object compounded from elements or element-atoms that means a manifest object. Asambhuti means something which is not compounded from elements. But there are some other translations also Aurobindo for instance translates more poetical "born" and "unborn".

devotee
29 April 2012, 07:34 PM
Namaste Icy,


So I was going through the vedas and there are quotes like

"Andhatama pravishanti ye asambhuti mupaste"
"They enter darkness, those who worship the natural elements" (Air, Water, Fire, etc.). "They sink deeper in darkness, those who worship sambhuti."

Sambhuti being things like table, and such so wouldn't idol come into that?

Also in other parts of the vedas it says things similar to there is no image of him, he can not be seen, so and so forth

am I right in saying this is only referring to gods ultimate form or something similar which supercedes the tangible idols we worship not as an idol but image...
because certain islamic priests have been trying to convince me that even in hinduism it is forbidden to use idols, so and forth.

I'm pretty sure thats false but some further elaboration would be lovely, just to strengthen my knowledge

Please don't learn translation of our scriptures from an ignorant and arrogant Muslim like Zakir Naik. The translation that you have provided is actually a mistranslation done by that Self-declared-pundit i.e. Zakir Naik.

MH has given correct translation.

Sambhoot = which has come into being i.e. anything that we can perceive in this universe.

Asambhhot = Unmanifest ... which has not come into being

Moreover, IsA Upanishad is one of the most difficult Upanishads to understand correctly. These verses talks of the two paths that people choose for attaining the Absolute. The first one is worshipping the manifest i.e. Saguna Brahman in form and with attributes as the seekers of the Bhakti Yoga. There are others who choose the JnAna yoga and meditate on the Unmanifest Brahman. The Upanishad advises not to discard any path completely as both together present the Right Path.

OM

rog
29 April 2012, 07:58 PM
I understand what is written...but forgive me I'm confused...


me too Icy or we wouldn't be 'human':) {for now anyway}

I think the problem for me is to keep in mind that every description of god is destined to fall short when attempting to convey the reality of 'Him'. Even this word I use, "Him" is insufficient..... as it holds that there may then be a 'her' or a 'me'

The most 'pure' attempt is simply "OM" The most 'eloquent' attempt is the ancient Hindu writings in spoken form.

If we try to picture 'God' we use the images of Gods and Goddesses and their recorded actions as visual images. For me the images of the gods equates to the writings, as brilliant white light equates to 'OM'

....... we human beings can't hold that place of attention for long before we are distracted.... but actually its the other way around.....it is because we get distracted that our current state of awareness 'decodes' as 'human'

The day to day practical implication of this is that we complicate the sound OM into a billion sounds - and 'brilliant white light' into a billion images because of our current mind condition. Within the human 'band' on the 'spectrum of enlightenment', 'OM' as a sound is still conceptual and not truly understood.

Some choices are so clear and some take a little thought......... but with billions of other subtle choices that we make, consciously and subconsciously, it is so hard to discern what one 'pleases Brahman' and I think that to train your subconscious or instinctive choices is hardest of all and it takes actual divine guidance to work all this out over what we currently describe as 'eternity' or 'wheel of rebirth'

I'm sure reincarnation and Brahman is real world stuff but we just keep misunderstanding each other in our attempt to describe the structure of reality.

I believe the Hindu texts are sacred because full pursuit of their meaning and taking the subsequent action will eventually lead to a real world rebirth in a higher state of awareness not suited to be experienced as human. It may be on this planet or another or in a different universe but the challenge will be the same in some magnificent higher plane.........

OR,

I fall back in to human delusion slowly gravitating into more and more wrong choices resulting in countless human lifetimes, each more miserable than the last growing more angry and restless and ignorant until my condition is no longer suitable for rebirth as human but something more ignorant.

This is my understanding of God(s) and levels of heaven and hell in an expanded real world view.

Please never think I am trying to be authoritative in knowledge. I only try to share the thoughts because I welcome observations from any POV. I'm trying to say; this is what I think is true??

I'm moving my own POV so often at the moment I know I will be wrong on many levels but I hope the words I use convey the feelings and ideas I have.

devotee
29 April 2012, 09:06 PM
Namaste,

This sentence "Na tasya PratimA Asti" has been translated as "Of Him there is no image" and the "image" has been equated with "Idols" and therefore, has been concluded that Idol-worship is not endorsed by the VedAs !

This sentence says something much deeper. "PratimA" means image not only gross but subtle too. It exactly means "like the original object" etc. From this word has come "Apratim" which means "having nothing equal to the original". So, Brahman is "Apratim" ... there is nothing with which it can be compared. It is true that Brahman is not the idol that we worship but it is also not the Allah (having his likes and dislikes, who is sometimes merciful and sometimes angry) of the Q'uran. As when you say that God is such and such ... you are superimposing some attributes on Brahman which is attributeless to make an image of Him in your mind. He is not like that even otherwise He cannot be called, "Apratim" in true sense.

Allah of the Q'uran is a peculiar God. He has no image and he gets damn angry by worshiping an image. He desires that everyone should worship Him. He gets angry with people who don't believe in Q'uran or the Mohammad and also puts them into eternal hell. He hates/loves/desires all like a common human being. This God having so many qualities unbecoming of a God but is considered superior by people like Zakir Naik just because it has no form. Being formless is the greatest attribute of this concept of God otherwise He is pretty human in every sense.

OM

yajvan
29 April 2012, 09:51 PM
hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

namasté

the īśāvāsya upaniṣad , 9th śloka informs us of the following:
andhaṁ tamaḥ praviśanti ye avidyām upāsate |
tato bhūya iva te tamo ya u vidyāyṁ ratāḥ ||

Those who worship (upāsana) ignorance (avidyā) enter/move forth (praviśanti) into blind darkness (andha-tamaḥ);
yet ( 'u' or on the other hand) those that delight (ratā or are enamored) with knowledge ( vidyā or vidyāyṁ) in the same manner (iva) fall into or are possessed ( r become i.e. bhūya) by darkness (tamas).

If one is interested in this, we had a very good discussion on the various śloka-s of this most profound upaniṣad. You can find it here, at the HDF post: http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showthread.php?t=4677

praṇām

Mana
30 April 2012, 12:10 AM
Namaste Icy, All,

Thank you for highlighting this passage.

Could this be a description of an approach for learning, thus also practising meditation. Direct knowledge of God burns the aspirant, they are left in the darkness of depression afterwards, with desire for moksha. With out that vision, blinded by the imagination running freely. In occurrence; with a slow gradual exposure could it be that balance is found peacefully? Might this also equate to the meditation of universal Siva?

Thank you kindly for posting, I shall return to the Upanishads for further thought. I love it when returning to the old favourites after a certain period of time; it is encouraging to notice when ones perspective or clarity of vision has changed, evolved or moved on.

Such a rich tapestry.

praNAma

mana

Believer
30 April 2012, 09:16 AM
Namaste,

....... aryan migration into indus valley, .....
Did that migration/invasion really happen?
http://www.stephen-knapp.com/solid_evidence_debunking_aryan_invasion.htm

Pranam.

maraji
30 April 2012, 10:15 AM
Pranam beliver

There has always been migration and invasion throughout the history of mankind. But is their a conspiracy and deceit here? The answer is resounding yes. Those who peddle this rediculus theory of AIT should there really is no race called Aryan neither here in India or more importantly from where ever they were suppose to have come from.

Aryan= noble

IcyCosmic
30 April 2012, 12:27 PM
Namaste Icy,



Please don't learn translation of our scriptures from an ignorant and arrogant Muslim like Zakir Naik. The translation that you have provided is actually a mistranslation done by that Self-declared-pundit i.e. Zakir Naik.

MH has given correct translation.

Sambhoot = which has come into being i.e. anything that we can perceive in this universe.

Asambhhot = Unmanifest ... which has not come into being

Moreover, IsA Upanishad is one of the most difficult Upanishads to understand correctly. These verses talks of the two paths that people choose for attaining the Absolute. The first one is worshipping the manifest i.e. Saguna Brahman in form and with attributes as the seekers of the Bhakti Yoga. There are others who choose the JnAna yoga and meditate on the Unmanifest Brahman. The Upanishad advises not to discard any path completely as both together present the Right Path.

OM

Ah, thanks for clearing that up. That quote was indeed given to me by a muslim friend who I assume got this from a source with zakir naik's work.

IcyCosmic
30 April 2012, 12:28 PM
Namaste Icy, All,

Thank you for highlighting this passage.

Could this be a description of an approach for learning, thus also practising meditation. Direct knowledge of God burns the aspirant, they are left in the darkness of depression afterwards, with desire for moksha. With out that vision, blinded by the imagination running freely. In occurrence; with a slow gradual exposure could it be that balance is found peacefully? Might this also equate to the meditation of universal Siva?

Thank you kindly for posting, I shall return to the Upanishads for further thought. I love it when returning to the old favourites after a certain period of time; it is encouraging to notice when ones perspective or clarity of vision has changed, evolved or moved on.

Such a rich tapestry.

praNAma

mana

You make a valid point - therein lies the beauty of hinduism too me, so complex, so much to explore, so much depth, yet at the same time so beautifully simple and divine.

IcyCosmic
30 April 2012, 12:32 PM
me too Icy or we wouldn't be 'human':) {for now anyway}

I think the problem for me is to keep in mind that every description of god is destined to fall short when attempting to convey the reality of 'Him'. Even this word I use, "Him" is insufficient..... as it holds that there may then be a 'her' or a 'me'



Indeed. There is no word strong enough to describe the beauty of the supreme, and no image or statue beautiful enough to embody his glory..therefore they are merely a door, or a starting point, a path, or a visual aid in your journey to become one with the divine.