What do YOU think?

[Eastern Mind]

Vannakkam: Forty years ago, about 2 years into the exploration of Sanatan Dharma, I encountered a well respected pundit 15 years my senior, whom I asked questions of. Still in the exploratory stage of my coming home to SD, it was a common occurrence to ask questions of the elders, just as new folks come to HDF and ask questions.

After some time spent with this man, a former monk in the Ramakrishna order, and a local pundit, I began to realise that all his answers were quotes. He knew the words of Ramakrishna well, the Gita, some Upanishads, etc. So I'd ask, "What do you think of reincarnation?" etc, and he'd say, "Well, the Gita says ... " etc. , never ever telling me directly what he personally thought.

He was a hard core Smarta in the traditional way, so I became curious as to who his Ishta was. I never did find out, despite my youthful pestering. To this day I don't know. It was always some vague answer like 'They're all the same", etc. Still he did insist he indeed had an ishta. Just who, it wasn't clear. Perhaps he thought he'd be insulting me.

It struck me as odd, this learned gentleman not actually knowing what he thought. After all, I had some very strong concepts of God's nature, and the like before ever encountering SD, just from reflecting on it. But SD confirmed who I was, philosophically.

Ultimately the poor fellow's actions spoke louder that any words, as he was unable to repay a small financial debt he owed me, despite 2 or 3 reminders.

Aum Namasivaya

[Believer]

Namaste,

Ultimately the poor fellow's actions spoke louder that any words, as he was unable to repay a small financial debt he owed me, despite 2 or 3 reminders.
Was it a debt or personal consulting fees which he did not have to repay? ;)

The best way for a priest to keep his job at a temple in North America is to not say anything, not have any opinions and when pressed, quote the scriptures. It is all about job security.

Pranam.

[surrenderindailylife]

Ultimately the poor fellow's actions spoke louder that any words, as he was unable to repay a small financial debt he owed me, despite 2 or 3 reminders.



Namaste EM

To me, someone who practices teachings of scriptures day in day out - especially when not watched by others (or society at large) is the need of the times that we live in. Even a few principles practised deeply would leave behind a profound impression (on society) rather than preaching of scriptures without any personal example to set.

Om Namah Shivay

[Eastern Mind]

Vannakkam: It was just a story to illustrate a point. My friend was not a full time priest, but an engineer. He was an excellent volunteer pundit before the society he was affiliated with had the money to hire a full time priest. Believer, it was one of those "I'll pay you later, I don't have the money just now," deals, in regard to something I'd bought for him as a request to pick it up for him, not to pay for it too.

So rather than trying to illustrate by a story, I'll be more direct: :)

What do YOU think? When we have discussions on HDF or in real life, what is it that YOU think? Are you a follower, only capable of regurgitating another's thoughts, or can you think for yourself? Do you have to cut and paste, in reality or metaphorically, or have you independently on your own accord via observation or insight, arrived at the same conclusions?

In the political arena, how many people vote for the party their father voted for? "I'm a Republican because my Dad was a Republican." I voted for Congress because that's what Dad told me to do." How often is it, "Well I carefully read each of the party's platforms, and this one made the most sense to me, so I voted for them."

We just had a provincial election here and that is exactly what my 21 year old daughter did, hence canceling out my vote! I'm proud of her.

That's the point. :)

Aum Namasivaya

[wundermonk]

So I'd ask, "What do you think of reincarnation?" etc, and he'd say, "Well, the Gita says ... " etc. , never ever telling me directly what he personally thought.

I find this frustrating too.

I think it goes back to the fact that in an orthodox sense, ONE of the definitive pramanas [epistemologies] for nearly all schools of Hinduism is Sabda/Sruti.

Perhaps this is a problem that plagues all religions.

Nearly every religion has ultimate scriptures and regardless of how one may feel about a topic, one is forced to defend the scripture even though in some cases, the scripture in question may seem quite bizzare.

It would be something like the following - "Rationally, X seems to be true of subject Z. But my scripture says Y is true of subject Z. Me being a believer, I am forced to defend Y when asked about subject Z."

[kallol]

Dear EM,

Each one of us fits unto different layers or karma and gyan. If I go to a factory and ask the worker in the shopfloor about the intricacies of the design of a system, he will be limited by his knowledge and will try to borrow from the knowledge he heard from his boss.

But the same question if I ask to a designer, he will be able to give the details from basic. Much of the rest is all in between. there are lower parts that the workers.

So my take is that the Pundit is there to do the puja. He has limited knowledge. Not all are Ramakrishna. That is why he takes refuge in Gita and other scriptures or may be the kathamrita.

The big players in Ramakrishna Mutt are reknowned for their profound knowledge and discourses.

[satay]

namaste,


and he'd say, "Well, the Gita says ... " etc. , never ever telling me directly what he personally thought.



I have also noticed the same with some people. They can recite the sastra like a parrot but can't explain how to apply this in practical life.



Ultimately the poor fellow's actions spoke louder that any words, as he was unable to repay a small financial debt he owed me, despite 2 or 3 reminders.

Aum Namasivaya

Well, I think you should let that debt go now and forgive him. Possibly you owed him some in last life. :p

[Eastern Mind]

Well, I think you should let that debt go now and forgive him. Possibly you owed him some in last life. Vannakkam Satay: Yes you make me laugh. Since this was 40 years ago, I think he's been forgiven for about 39 years and 11 months. Aum Namasivaya

[Sahasranama]

I do not think it is bizarre at all that someone quotes the scriptures when asked about a subject like reincarnation. There is no other pramana for such subjects and I would rather listen to someone who speaks from scriptural knowledge than someone who is using his personal fantasy. If we didn't consult shastras for such topics, we could all join the new age movement and start making up our own chakras and avataras. I couldn't care less about what someone personally thinks about reincarnation. EM said one time that he didn't believe that humans can reincarnate as lower beings like insects and I of course respect that personal belief. But without any reference to shastras, one cannot claim that this is an accepted view in Hinduism or Agamic Shaivism in particular. Without shastra there would be nothing that prevented people presenting their personal fantasies as Hinduism.

[wundermonk]

I do not think it is bizarre at all that someone quotes the scriptures when asked about a subject like reincarnation. There is no other pramana for such subjects and I would rather listen to someone who speaks from scriptural knowledge than someone who is using his personal fantasy. If we didn't consult shastras for such topics, we could all join the new age movement and start making up our own chakras and avataras. I couldn't care less about what someone personally thinks about reincarnation. You said one time that you didn't believe that humans can reincarnate as lower beings like insects and I of course respect that personal belief. But without any reference to shastras, you cannot claim that this is an accepted view in Hinduism or Agamic Shaivism in particular. Without shastra there would be nothing that prevented people presenting their personal fantasies as Hinduism.

I did not specifically have reincarnation or even Hinduism in mind when I used the term "bizarre". Reincarnation is not empirically observable and clearly in matters supersensible, scriptures are the only authentic source.

[Believer]

Namaste,

I too have trouble with asking a pujari about his personal views on any of the issues. And here is why: Shashtras are the divine word, and Acharyas are the ones who translate them for us. To ask a pujari to adulterate/dilute the divine knowledge with his 'personal' comments just does not sound right. If it is the personal views that one needs, why ask a pujari? Why not any Joe on the street?

If a Hindu does not believe in the Hindu scriptures, then he has disassociated himself from the essence of his religion. And the only authorities who can/should write commentaries about the scriptures are the Acharyas, who have directly experienced divinity. Mixing personal views of laymen with scriptural knowledge, or replacing the shashtric knowledge with our intuitive philosophical conclusions is dangerous. When we do that, we cease to be associated with the shashtras and are Hindus no more. But that is just me, others may have different opinions.

Pranam.

[Eastern Mind]

Vannakkam: Perhaps reincarnation was a bad example.

I also think this 'think for yourselves' idea is more prevalent in the west than the east. Certainly children tend to become more independent faster here. Having taught in the western education system, many of the teaching methods grew from rote memorization to deciding for yourself, or a problem solving model. In other words the goal was to get kids how to think, not what to think. So you got questioning minds, at a relatively low age like at the onset of formal thought, according to Piaget`s model, which is at a par time-wise with the onset of adolescence.

Of course, much would depend on the topic at hand. I consulted the priest here just today on why limes are used for car pujas, which is much less important than whether of not one believes in reincarnation.

But I must say I did believe in reincarnation soon after I encountered it as a concept, and I can`t honestly remember where that was ... maybe just in the World Book encyclopedia at school. Compared to the òther`alternative, it just made a great deal of sense to me.

Aum Namasivaya

[devotee]

Namaste EM,


I consulted the priest here just today on why limes are used for car pujas

Does it bother you ? You should have consulted me ! :D

Actually, to ward off evil, Chillies and Lemons are used. They are considered to absorb the evil energy directed towards you. So, when you drive a Car and cruh the Lemons first, you have crushed the evil energy that was directed against you Car !

Sounds, so simple, no ? BTW, you may not find this explanation in some scriptures. Why ? Because, it is all made up by me and my intuition tells me that this version should be 90% correct ! :)

OM

[satay]

Vannakkam Satay: Yes you make me laugh. Since this was 40 years ago, I think he's been forgiven for about 39 years and 11 months. Aum Namasivaya

imagine the interest on that for 40 years.

[satay]

namaste Sahas,
I agree with you. However, I do think that it is nice to see people make the connection of sastra to practical life instead of just parroting sastra.

I can simply pick up a translation and become a parrot myself. Without understanding how to apply the knowledge in practical life there is no point.



I do not think it is bizarre at all that someone quotes the scriptures when asked about a subject like reincarnation. There is no other pramana for such subjects and I would rather listen to someone who speaks from scriptural knowledge than someone who is using his personal fantasy. If we didn't consult shastras for such topics, we could all join the new age movement and start making up our own chakras and avataras. I couldn't care less about what someone personally thinks about reincarnation. EM said one time that he didn't believe that humans can reincarnate as lower beings like insects and I of course respect that personal belief. But without any reference to shastras, one cannot claim that this is an accepted view in Hinduism or Agamic Shaivism in particular. Without shastra there would be nothing that prevented people presenting their personal fantasies as Hinduism.

[Mana]

I do not think it is bizarre at all that someone quotes the scriptures when asked about a subject like reincarnation. There is no other pramana for such subjects and I would rather listen to someone who speaks from scriptural knowledge than someone who is using his personal fantasy. If we didn't consult shastras for such topics, we could all join the new age movement and start making up our own chakras and avataras. I couldn't care less about what someone personally thinks about reincarnation. EM said one time that he didn't believe that humans can reincarnate as lower beings like insects and I of course respect that personal belief. But without any reference to shastras, one cannot claim that this is an accepted view in Hinduism or Agamic Shaivism in particular. Without shastra there would be nothing that prevented people presenting their personal fantasies as Hinduism.

Namaste Sahasranama All,

I quite agree with you Sahasranama, this brings up an interesting point; how do we know when someone truly experiences 2nd birth, or when this is ego based lies, rather fanciful adaptations of bookish knowledge with liberal use of artistic licence? Some of which the pro claimant actually comes to believe them selves through repetition and group reinforcement; such is the delusional power of the human mind.

Reincarnation is a logical conclusion, given the nature of nature; the nature of Siva.

I do not believe that second birth is designated by first birth, else it would be called first birth. It is to my mind, a recessive gene (this could mean a combination of hundreds of genes) most likely having, epigenetic triggers. Recessive genes are genes which show only if both parents have them somewhere in their last 3 generations or so. The combination coming from both mother and father make the gene active, else it lays dormant; even then, it may need the epigenetic trigger, or, otherwise said a bump or coercing out.

When this quality becomes active, it does not mean that the native will have the character required to deal with it with out dying in the process; in natures filter (see Patanjali for help in surviving this). If the native does survive, they may have the intellect vision and foresight required to decipher the shastras, to a language more readily understandable in the current age and time; we are all aware by now, that this knowledge is transient and transcendental; needing regular deciphering as language and universal understanding shifts.

Just a few thoughts that I have forming.

praNAma

mana

[satay]

namaste,


Namaste EM,



Sounds, so simple, no ? BTW, you may not find this explanation in some scriptures. Why ? Because, it is all made up by me and my intuition tells me that this version should be 90% correct ! :)

OM

I was going to say that where is the specific quote from a sastra that mentioins this? Scripture police is going to be after you now...:p

[Mana]

namaste Sahas,
I agree with you. However, I do think that it is nice to see people make the connection of sastra to practical life instead of just parroting sastra.

I can simply pick up a translation and become a parrot myself. Without understanding how to apply the knowledge in practical life there is no point.

Namaste satay,

I couldn't agree with you more!

Changing tact just a little as this might be of notable interest; this is also true, of many walks of life today, especially in the delusional West! It is to my mind, also common place, and highly dangerous within modern science and engineering!

I work with an Architect from time to time, he is better described as a politician or a sales man; having very little understanding of the laws of physics, which one would have thought important for this type of profession.

The cycle continues ...

praNAma

mana