What do you think?

[satay]

Namaste
Imagine the following scenario.
All Hindu sastra are destroyed.
All memories of sastra are wiped from human memory
All things related to Hindus and Hinduism are wiped out ie no knowledge of it remains in this world.
All gurus fake or otherwise have no more knowledge of Hinduism


Would that be considered the end of Hinduism?

[Sahasranama]

In this case I can only parrot the shastras, but I don't need to say more.

यदा यदा हि धर्मस्य ग्लानिर्भवति भारत।

अभ्युत्थानमधर्मस्य तदाऽऽत्मानं सृजाम्यहम्।।4.7।।

Whenever there is a decline of Dharma, O Arjuna, and uprising of Adharma, then I incarnate Myself.

[wundermonk]

Namaste
Imagine the following scenario.
All Hindu sastra are destroyed.
All memories of sastra are wiped from human memory
All things related to Hindus and Hinduism are wiped out ie no knowledge of it remains in this world.
All gurus fake or otherwise have no more knowledge of Hinduism


Would that be considered the end of Hinduism?

Even in the absence of Shastras, Hinduism will survive for the following reasons:

(1)Sanatana Dharma [SD] is "eternal righteousness".
(2)SD is not based on historical occurrences or miracles that form the very foundation of other religions.
(3)SD is not based on any historical personality either.
(4)SD is a means of living in harmony with the oneself, others and nature.

All this information is innate to human beings and available on some reflection and introspection.

[MahaHrada]

Namaste
Imagine the following scenario.
All Hindu sastra are destroyed.
All memories of sastra are wiped from human memory
All things related to Hindus and Hinduism are wiped out ie no knowledge of it remains in this world.
All gurus fake or otherwise have no more knowledge of Hinduism


Would that be considered the end of Hinduism?

Yes, a good comparison would be ancient Egypt or Greece, while influences remain the religions themselves are completly wiped out on this planet. Except for a few neopagans who in recent times try to use the few hundred years of freedom of religion in the west, that are again endangered by the rise of fundamentalist Islam and Christianity, to revive these ancient religions. They will not suceed but even if they would be successful, the result would not resemble the original.
So much less than what you describe is enough to destroy a religion and culture, since a lot of knowledge, and also texts and treatises from these ancient cultures still exist and can be studied.

[Eastern Mind]

Vannakkam: How did it develop this time? Is it not plausible that that could reoccur? It might not be exactly as we see it today, but close. Aren't our truths eternal?

Aum Namasivaya

[Sahasranama]

It is mentioned that many times earlier the sacred knowledge was lost, but it is not something that human beings can reestablish themselves through their own discovery. When it does gets reestablished it is through a deva like Krishna, Shiva or Surya for example. Sometimes it is in the form of a boon after a rishi has performed tapas or when a devotee has taken refuge. The vedic samhitas we have now is only a small fraction of what was once available. The Vishnu Purana mentions the number of shakhas that was available at the time of Vyasa Krishna Dvaipayana which was more than a thousand combined from all four vedas. Now only a handful of shakhas are available and most of the shrauta tradition has also faded away.

[maraji]

Pranam

Perish the thought, such a scenario is not possible, since knowledge is never destroyed, but there remains a possibility of it being obscured just as the sun by the cloud.
The Vedas are Apurushya, the human mind is inquisitive as soon as the mind begins to question who am I, where do I come from? The answers begins to reveal it self, no doubt it would take time and effort.

[charitra]

Kalki enters the fray.

[MahaHrada]

It is mentioned that many times earlier the sacred knowledge was lost, but it is not something that human beings themselves can reestablish. When it does gets reestablished after time it is through a deva like Krishna, Shiva or Surya for example. Sometimes it is in the form of a boon after a rishi has performed tapas. The vedic samhitas we have now is only a small fraction of what was once avaiable. The Vishnu Purana mentions the number of shakhas that was available at the time of Vyasa Krishna Dvaipayana which were more than a thousand combined from all four vedas. Now only a handful of shakhas are available and most of the shrauta tradition has also faded away.

That earlier shastras had a higher number of verses and the later are digests of earlier versions, is not a historical fact but only shows that there are always limitations, distortions and degenerations to be found in whatever is written down as a shastras, and handed over to us, to prevent people from slavishly following some written words as if they are absolute truths.

The personification of the sky in ancient egypt was the hawk headed Horus one of his eyes was conceived as the sun the other as the moon, certainly there are eternal truths contained in this image which can be found also in Hinduism, but Horus is not a Hindu deity but an ancient pharaonic.

Should a similar truth to that found in Hinduism be again revealead it will be certain that this deity of the sun will not look like Surya simply because historically prior to the advent of Surya, it was the hawk headed Horus that represented the sky and the sun , so in a future revealation, the principle of the sun, when indian culture has changed, will certainly manifest in a different form if that will happen at all which is more than unlikely since in the history of mankind once a culture was destroyed and the religion forgotten it never appeared again, there is no reason to assume why, in the hypothetical fate of Hinduism being destroyed, that this should be different. Hinduism has even less political power than the ancient greek, pharaonic and babylonian empires had, which religions all vanished leaving only traces, never to appear again.

Of course it is possible to belive that the exagerated long time cycles in the puranas are to be taken literally, or that the deities are actually living on a subtle mountain , or in some other subtle planes, wearing local indian garments crowns and jewellery of a certain historical period, and if the eternal truth are revealed again they will stick to these cultural patterns, the sanskrit language, indian dresscode, and all other cultural dependent symbols, rituals and sacrifices and reveal them again in an exactly similar way.

They will again reveal themselves in that way even if not a single person on earth is still living in a similar way, dressing that way and sanskrit is unknown, and there is not a single person that lives according to any of these cultural patterns that makes Hinduism what it is today? Does that sound likely? The belief that the history of Hinduism is several millions of years long, is of course also possible and that all knowledge of human history we have is false, but to me this is as naive as beliving that the world was created in 6 days.

[satay]

namaskar,
Thank you for the replies. I was wondering.
The first Brahma Sutra is:

Athato Brahmajijnasa

Now, had I not read that or had it been wiped out of existence (the sastra that is) is not possible that this 'jijnasa' would arise in a human being by itself?

Does a human really need to read this first to have the Jijnasa? I would venture to say no.

My point is that sastra confirms what 'is' and that 'is' can be dis-covered by a person by him or herself.

[MahaHrada]

namaskar,
Thank you for the replies. I was wondering.
The first Brahma Sutra is:

Athato Brahmajijnasa

Now, had I not read that or had it been wiped out of existence (the sastra that is) is not possible that this 'jijnasa' would arise in a human being by itself?

Does a human really need to read this first to have the Jijnasa? I would venture to say no.

My point is that sastra confirms what 'is' and that 'is' can be dis-covered by a person by him or herself.

Yes of course, that truth was also known long before the Brahma sutra was written, by even more ancient cultures than the Indian, like the ancient eqyptians, can we therefore say that hindus have rediscovered and are therefore following the pharonic religion? So can we say that future generations will still be Hindus simply because they have rediscovered a similar truth? Then why not embrace Communism, Capitalism, Atheism, Christianity or Islam even in these religions or ideolgies some people have discovered some truths.

There will never be any culture that is entirely wrong about everything, everywhere partial truth have been discovered, is therefore everyone who has ever lived and discovered something valuable and correct or truthful automatically a Hindu?
By the way this is an established islamic doctrine. Muslims say Islam is the true religion and everyone is automatically born a Muslim and has become a dirty kufar only later in life, due to the influence of distorted Religions, and therefore has the duty to reverse to this only original truth. This is a dangerous idea. Hindus should not belive something similar about Hinduism.

[satay]

Just this morning, I read the following



The five great Acharyas: Sri Sankara the exponent of Kevala
Advaita or uncom promising monism, Sri Ramanuja the exponent of
Visishtadvaita or qualified monism, Sri Nimbarka the exponent of
Bhedabheda-vada, Sri Madhva the ex ponent of strict Dvaitism or
Dvaita-vada and Sri Vallabha the exponent of Suddhadvaita-vada or
pure monism agree that Brahman is the cause of this world and that
knowledge of Brahman leads to Moksha or the final emancipation,
which is the goal of life. They also emphatically declared that Brah -
man can be known only through the scriptures and not through mere
reasoning. But they dif fer amongst them selves as to the nature of this Brah man.


source: Sri Swami Sivananda, BrahmaSutras.pdf

Well, I guess that puts an end to my query. I withdraw my comments.

[maraji]

Pranam

Off course if we go by historical facts as presented, we would be forced to believe that so and so culture was before or after, and then come up all sorts of answers. Unfortunately the historical facts, keep changing the goal post from AIT to earth being flat not so long ago, I can put my faith on this historians or I can put my faith Vedic literature which survived two brutal invasion. Vedas are an oral tradition still alive and kicking, set in musical tone if a peice is missing or added the whole thing would fall. There is lot to learn from it, I would rather put my faith in it then someone looking at fossil then coming up with 2+2=5

[Mana]

Namaste Satay, All

To my mind, No. I see Hinduism as as a reflection of satya sanAtana dharma, and as such the name is just that, a word, the body and soul would remain the same no mater what language is used to describe it.

I get the distinct impression, from my limited knowledge of the shastras and saṃskṛtam that this wisdom and knowledge; evolved with our conciousness, intellect and language. We have in these works a recording of Siva's finest self expression. Though us he replicates him self, were we to lose these words of divine grace and divination, they could not be replaced with out first our losing our speech, and knowledge of the cosmos, and self.

Given a similar circumstance in which Śivas' reproduction generated another intelligent life form capable of inheriting speech and knowledge of self, then we might see the growth of a similar magnitude and importance as the self realises the Self. But for us to start a new, with the minds that we have, I should say that; I do not think that we are capable in our current condition.


The key is the process or the path its self, it is also Śiva, and time herself opens like a flower, the lotus of Viṣṇu.

The shastras are to my mind, the building blocks of God conciousness within Atman.

I believe that all the seers, see essentially the same thing, it is how that this is expressed which differs; dependent upon time and place.

But the vision, I believe, is always the same; through out the entire universe ...

praNAma

mana

[MahaHrada]

Pranam

Off course if we go by historical facts as presented, we would be forced to believe that so and so culture was before or after, and then come up all sorts of answers. Unfortunately the historical facts, keep changing the goal post from AIT to earth being flat not so long ago, I can put my faith on this historians or I can put my faith Vedic literature which survived two brutal invasion. Vedas are an oral tradition still alive and kicking, set in musical tone if a peice is missing or added the whole thing would fall. There is lot to learn from it, I would rather put my faith in it then someone looking at fossil then coming up with 2+2=5

Only two examples:

Puranas say the Sun is closer to the earth than the Moon, can that be held as a truth even today?

Yoga shastras say whether a child is male female or hermaphroditic depends on the amount of the mixed menstrual blood and sperm in the intercourse, if there is more blood it will be a girl more sperm a boy can that be held true today?

You are free to base you understanding of human history on any pramana you like, there are even people who still belive in flat earth or hollow earth with a central sun within the earth and nonetheless manage to supply their family with food and shelter.

[maraji]

Pranam

We have a saying hathi ne maan, kidi ne kaan, meaning tone for an elephant and a grain for an ant, so nothing new here.

Well thank you for granting me my freedom but then I am use it Krishna gave us that freedom, I am sure you are aware of what he said to Arjun in the end.

Coming back to Puran, you are aware that is smriti, not only that it is so Puran that it speaks not just of this kalpa but several others so take your pick as for yoga shastra I don't know much or which one you mean but it does not matter, I simply have no faith on many so call historical facts that you have brought here

[MahaHrada]

Pranam

We have a saying hathi ne maan, kidi ne kaan, meaning tone for an elephant and a grain for an ant, so nothing new here.

Well thank you for granting me my freedom but then I am use it Krishna gave us that freedom, I am sure you are aware of what he said to Arjun in the end.

Coming back to Puran, you are aware that is smriti, not only that it is so Puran that it speaks not just of this kalpa but several others so take your pick as for yoga shastra I don't know much or which one you mean but it does not matter, I simply have no faith on many so call historical facts that you have brought here

Yes of course that makes sense, i am glad you enlightened me, during the last kalpa the sun was closer to the earth, and the moon far away, one kalpa earlier the earth was flat, in the kalpa before that the amount of menstrual blood decided the gender of the child, and one before that the earth was hollow and the sun inside.

What historical facts are you referring to that i mentionend and you disagree with?

That Hinduism, like it is today, with deities dressed and attired in jewelry in a particular way, according to local customs like Shiva, Surya, Ganapati, Hanuman, Rama, Krishna and Parvati has not stayed for Millions of years always the same just like it is now?

That the pharaonic eqyptians had already texts that talk of the unity of man with the primordial deity that are of an earlier date than the Brahma sutras? Indeed existed way before Indians had used written characters?

Whatever Hindus belive about the eternality of Hinduism, and the activity of Avataras to restore the Dharma, while they sit by and watch them proceed it should not prevent them from also acting on their own and from protecting Hinduism against its enemies, and from preserving what is left of the ancient culture, religion and lifestyle of Bharata by themselves.

Everything does not depend on the deities, the deities may be eternal, but without hindus that are protecting India, hindu lifestyle, religion and culture, Hinduism will certainly be non existing. To be preserved Hinduism needs you hindus as much as it need the deities, if there are no hindus and nothing remains of Indias religious traditions and culture there will also be no need for a Kalki avatara to appear.

[maraji]

Pranam
Your sarcasm is a sign of either extreme ego or an attempt to hide your insecurity. You have completely ignored the fact, I had mentioned is that Puranas are smriti text as such not regarded as Pramanas. Even though it does hold high regards in Hindu thinking but many things in there are not fully understood, also having been tampered with by various enemies of the faith, it can not be fully relied upon unless scrutinised by dharma guru. I have not come across in the Puranas and you have failed to provide any evidence, I took your word for it, are you parroting what you have heard on the internet?


That the pharaonic eqyptians had already texts that talk of the unity of man with the primordial deity that are of an earlier date than the Brahma sutras? Indeed existed way before Indians had used written characters?
I do not know what the hack you are on about or what you are trying to prove, as I said before I have very little faith on those so called academic historical event tinged with bias. I am not denying the different culture existed and some of them may have even perish, but humanity have existed since the creation a lot longer then the academia would have us believe. New frontiers are discovered everyday, the recent find of submerged Dwarka city , will have to rewrite the history, so who is bothered? Naa, I put my faith on the living vibrant civilisation the Hindu of way of life which survived brutal occupation which I dare say will survive regardless. One thing we may agree on is Dharma Raksit Raksitha, I don’t think anyone needs lesson on this

[MahaHrada]

Pranam
Your sarcasm is a sign of either extreme ego or an attempt to hide your insecurity.

No it is just for the LuLz

You have completely ignored the fact, I had mentioned is that Puranas are smriti text as such not regarded as Pramanas. Even though it does hold high regards in Hindu thinking but many things in there are not fully understood, also having been tampered with by various enemies of the faith, it can not be fully relied upon unless scrutinised by dharma guru. I have not come across in the Puranas and you have failed to provide any evidence, I took your word for it, are you parroting what you have heard on the internet?
That is standard puranic cosmology, there is no need for quotes.


I do not know what the hack you are on about or what you are trying to prove, as I said before I have very little faith on those so called academic historical event tinged with bias. I am not denying the different culture existed and some of them may have even perish, but humanity have existed since the creation a lot longer then the academia would have us believe.

Primates have lived here for 65 millon years how much more time does a Hindu need to accept academia as a valid pramana? If it is just the duration of time humanity has existed, that is bothering you, maybe we can find some arrangement. It would promote the Dharma if the claims of modern Hindus are not outrageously unlikely or ridicilously exaggerated.


New frontiers are discovered everyday, the recent find of submerged Dwarka city , will have to rewrite the history, so who is bothered?

It has been long proven to be just some natural formation, only a lunatic fringe still belives that hoax.


Naa, I put my faith on the living vibrant civilisation the Hindu of way of life which survived brutal occupation which I dare say will survive regardless. One thing we may agree on is Dharma Raksit Raksitha, I don’t think anyone needs lesson on this
How long it will survive also depends on how attractive it is to the younger urban generations , who are globalized, more educated and less repressed by outdated errors, codes of conduct, rules and regulations that are often remnants and admixture of british victorian rule and islamic repressive codes of conduct but also backward and irrational aspects of Hinduism, that run contrary to todays enhanced knowledge of science, history, medicine, astronomy and physics. Indian culture was never based on blind faith but always on yogic experience, inquiry, debate and scientific exploration. Hinduism was about Knowledge of Atman (atmajanana) and one would follow the science of Brahman (Brahmavidya) and there was never a rule to still stick to blind beliefs just because they were written down in some sacred book, even when obviously proven wrong.

[maraji]

Pranam



That is standard puranic cosmology, there is no need for quotes.
In other words you have no idea what you are talking about.


Primates have lived here for 65 millon years how much more time does a Hindu need to accept academia as a valid pramana? ------- It would promote the Dharma if the claims of modern Hindus are not outrageously unlikely or ridicilously exaggerated.
As long as we have to rely on dead all thing material this soul would never be satisfied. You are welcome to believe in many theories which includes, evolution which has long been disproved but still pass as knowledge because they have no proof of any alternative. And you want me to place my trust in them!


It has been long proven to be just some natural formation, only a lunatic fringe still belives that hoax.
That is preciously my point, it is a hoax because it is outlandish claim or was it, bbc reported it, I am not saying that makes it true. But like everything else lunatics who has nothing better to do change their minds more often then their underwear. So what is acceptable to you is scientific but others are lunatics.



http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/1768109.stm 19th jan 2002
And now some of the latest



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nQZFS9Hij0M
I do not base my faith in all these , what you call lunatics , you have not monopolised that word I hope.
　
　
　


How long it will survive also depends on how attractive it is to the younger urban generations , who are globalized, more educated and less repressed by outdated errors, codes of conduct, rules and regulations that are often remnants and admixture of british victorian rule and islamic repressive codes of conduct but also backward and irrational aspects of Hinduism, that run contrary to todays enhanced knowledge of science, history, medicine, astronomy and physics. Indian culture was never based on blind faith but always on yogic experience, inquiry, debate and scientific exploration. Hinduism was about Knowledge of Atman (atmajanana) and one would follow the science of Brahman (Brahmavidya) and there was never a rule to still stick to blind beliefs just because they were written down in some sacred book, even when obviously proven wrong.
Mixed with some truth you never fail to attack Hindus, Dharma has never been about how attractive you make for people, in fact if you read the Upanisad it discourages the student, test his resolve, it is like walking on a double edge sword not for weak minded person. Urban generation is probably a lost cause chasing material opulent. Rules and regulation are well documented nothing to do with Victorian or Islamic influence. Who said there was a rule to blind follow anything, god all you have to read is Gita last chapter and last few words will give you an idea. As I say you mix few good words here and there and pose a saviour of Hindu Dharma does not wash with me.

[MahaHrada]

Pranam
In other words you have no idea what you are talking about.

No there is no need for it since it is well known that in puranic cosmology the sun is the first planet circling the bhu mandala followed by the moon. It is basic knowledge. I won´t bother to look it up.


As long as we have to rely on dead all thing material this soul would never be satisfied. You are welcome to believe in many theories which includes, evolution which has long been disproved

Ohh, thats great news, Evolution has been long disproved ;) may i ask by whom? by the Pope, or by that crazy american evangelist who also proved that the world was created in six days and god exists because the Banana has a zipper?
http://www.myspace.com/video/gary/kirk-cameron-and-bananas/26794725

Creationists and Hindus united against Darwin. I would call this a new dimension of creative interfaith communion.


And now some of the latest ....

Yes if BBC reported it then it must be the truth :) bbc and the puranas as a pramana then what can go wrong? What about adding some articles of "the sun" . Graham Hancock, who inspired this article, is a well known Pseudoarcheologist, there are lots of others, new agers, bible archeologists, aryan supremacists and other sectarian religious fundamentalists who produce large amounts of reports, movies, books and talks on Atlantis, Lemuria, alien archeology, alternative archeology, Illuminati conspiracy and lizard men, UFOS, Area 51, flat earth , hollow earth, the new world order, the abominable snowmen, the horror of the black lagoon, godzilla, dracula and other interesting topics, deny darwinism, have found the location of the garden eden and the tree of knowledge of good and evil, and proclaim that the planet is not older than 5000 years, humans are created in test tubes by Aliens and produce masses of other fairy tales and conspiracy theories. The so called gulf of cambay "excavations" are part of this fundamentalist religiously and monetary motivated pseudo archeology.

http://www.hallofmaat.com/modules.php?name=Articles&file=article&sid=148

[maraji]

Pranam



No there is no need for it since it is well known that in puranic cosmology the sun is the first planet circling the bhu mandala followed by the moon. It is basic knowledge. I won´t bother to look it up.
 
So why quote if you are not going to back it up.
 


Ohh, thats great news, Evolution has been long disproved may i ask by whom?
 
By mere fact it remains a theory, no one can prove it, the missing link remains a missing link. No one has seen a species mutating to another
 
　


Yes if BBC reported it then it must be the truth bbc and the puranas as a pramana then what can go wrong? ----
 
You are amazing to say the least, you change my context, I never said BBC is the authority, I only presented that to prove your lunatic pramanas that the whole academia present to us, one half will agree, along will come someone else just to disprove what was agreed earlier, very scientific.
 
What was what you said, ah, only natural shapes they were, was that it? for that you call them lunatics, well they have found many artifacts, but I repeat I do not care either way.
 
As for ridiculing Puranas, I think you should desist from it immediately, you are the one quoting it, that which you cant even back it up. I had already stated my position on it and I repeat you can’t present it as pramanas if you can not back it up with srutis (although dharma guru can explain it in the absence of srutis).
 
Hindus have know the science of eclipse long before the academia knew how to change nappies, this knowledge does not come blindly following anything, whatever puranas speak on bhu mandla is a mystery, no one of us have any knowledge what they mean. who is Surya who is Chandra, what is their relation, weather the purans are talking of the same moon that orbit’s the earth or Chandra that is some place else. That is all beyond me and I dare say far beyond some, who thinks we might come from apes.

[MahaHrada]

Pranam
So why quote if you are not going to back it up. 

No need to backup when all Puranas agree on this, and it is only one minor example there are so many other subjects where our knowledge has improved and the content of puranas or ancient texts on Ayurveda, Astronomy, Yoga, Tantra contain errors that have to be corrected, human knowledge continually improves, we can see that everyday, so why stick to obvious errors and shortcomings?

 
You are amazing to say the least, you change my context, I never said BBC is the authority, I only presented that to prove your lunatic pramanas that the whole academia present to us, one half will agree, along will come someone else just to disprove what was agreed earlier, very scientific.

If we want to improve our knowledge certainly that will never have an end, knowledge will continually improve, unless the dark ages return and fundamentalist theists who oppose the quest for knowledge will force blind beliefs down our throat and again violently oppose inquiry and exploration.
 

What was what you said, ah, only natural shapes they were, was that it? for that you call them lunatics, well they have found many artifacts, but I repeat I do not care either way.
 
There are only a few articles and web pages on this subject, no archeologists ever took any of these so called artifacts serious, except people on the lunatic fringe like Graham Hancock who was the one who inspired the few articles that exist.
 

As for ridiculing Puranas, I think you should desist from it immediately, you are the one quoting it, that which you cant even back it up. I had already stated my position on it and I repeat you can’t present it as pramanas if you can not back it up with srutis (although dharma guru can explain it in the absence of srutis).
 
I am not ridiculing the Puranas, i have a large collection of Puranas and i have spent quite a long time comparing the content and researching their relationship with other shastras such as upanishads, agamas and tantras. But Hinduism is not a dead religion, it has been adapting to changes for several thousand of years, and in this process of adapting and improving it has of course also discarded errors and elements that have proven to be not as useful in a changed environment. Hindus will continue to engage in this process of change, improvement and adaption, inspite of your desire to hold on to obvious errors and shortcomings.

  

Hindus have know the science of eclipse long before the academia knew how to change nappies, this knowledge does not come blindly following anything, whatever puranas speak on bhu mandla is a mystery, no one of us have any knowledge what they mean. who is Surya who is Chandra, what is their relation, weather the purans are talking of the same moon that orbit’s the earth or Chandra that is some place else. That is all beyond me and I dare say far beyond some, who thinks we might come from apes.

First the Sun was closer to the earth in another Yuga, now Chandra is not the Moon and Surya not the Sun, and thats why they can change their position as regards to the bhu mandala as they wish, which bhu mandala of course is not the earth but something else also quite mysterious.

Now thats sounds like a good idea, now i am convinced, of course it would be ridiculous and anti hindu to assume that at the times the Puranas were written the knowledge of astronomy could have been slightly inferior than today with the hubble space telescope, manned spacecrafts and the international space station and huge arrays of radio telescopes. Of course none of this can match the knowledge of Astronomy contained in the Puranas. Thanks for taking the time explaining this to me in such a rational manner. Can you forgive me my blasphemous "shirk"? ;)

[devotee]

Namaste Satay,



All Hindu sastra are destroyed.
All memories of sastra are wiped from human memory
All things related to Hindus and Hinduism are wiped out ie no knowledge of it remains in this world.
All gurus fake or otherwise have no more knowledge of Hinduism


God is supposed to do something, right ? I think it is his job to take care of these things. I am of firm opinion that if it ever happens, He would make sure that this knowledge is revealed again by whatever means.

OM

[maraji]

Pranam
Let me highlight your statements




Puranas say the Sun is closer to the earth than the Moon, can that be held as a truth even today?


I am not ridiculing the Puranas, i have a large collection of Puranas and i have spent quite a long time comparing the content and researching their relationship with other shastras such as upanishads, agamas and tantras. But Hinduism is not a dead religion, it has been adapting to changes for several thousand of years, and in this process of adapting and improving it has of course also discarded errors and elements that have proven to be not as useful in a changed environment. Hindus will continue to engage in this process of change, improvement and adaption, inspite of your desire to hold on to obvious errors and shortcomings.
 
 
You build your own straw man and shoot it down, you can not have it both ways, I had not quoted the puranas, have a look at what I said about it below, how can you accuse me off holding on to obvious error.





Coming back to Puran, you are aware that is smriti, -----------
I had mentioned is that Puranas are smriti text as such not regarded as Pramanas. -------also having been tampered with by various enemies of the faith, it can not be fully relied upon
 
 
　
　

If we want to improve our knowledge certainly that will never have an end, knowledge will continually improve, unless the dark ages return and fundamentalist theists who oppose the quest for knowledge will force blind beliefs down our throat and again violently oppose inquiry and exploration.
 
You are one very confused person, you lump other religion and their dogma to tar the Hindus. SD had never been against inquiry or forcing, no one get their head chopped off or get sent to hell because you do not believe in it, only Karma determines that. Enquiry is a central part of dharma, athatho Brahm jigyasa.
 
　
　
　
　


First the Sun was closer to the earth in another Yuga, now Chandra is not the Moon and Surya not the Sun, and thats why they can change their position as regards to the bhu mandala as they wish, which bhu mandala of course is not the earth but something else also quite mysterious.
Now thats sounds like a good idea, now i am convinced, of course it would be ridiculous and anti hindu to assume that at the times the Puranas were written the knowledge of astronomy could have been slightly inferior than today with the hubble space telescope, manned spacecrafts and the international space station and huge arrays of radio telescopes. Of course none of this can match the knowledge of Astronomy contained in the Puranas. Thanks for taking the time explaining this to me in such a rational manner. Can you forgive me my blasphemous "shirk"?
 
Here we go again, completely misrepresent me, I never said sun was closer to earth.
As to the rest you are letting your imagination getting the better of you, good luck in your quest through hubble, havens forbid if I were to stop you, happy finding your self, athatho Brahm jigyasa.

[MahaHrada]

 
You build your own straw man and shoot it down, you can not have it both ways, I had not quoted the puranas, have a look at what I said about it below, how can you accuse me off holding on to obvious error.

When you agree with me then what is your problem?
 

You are one very confused person, you lump other religion and their dogma to tar the Hindus.

I am not accusing the Hindus of anything, on the contrary, i trust in their ability to discard what is obviously wrong and outdated, besides that i just read that 85 % of Hindus belive there is enough evidence in support of Evolution and lots of spiritual teachers and Hindu academics cooperated already for a long time with western academics and scholars to enhance their knowledge for example of history, Yoga or Ayurveda etc. with methods of modern science.

  

Here we go again, completely misrepresent me, I never said sun was closer to earth.

I already asked you, i will ask you again. If you agree in all points with me please, what is it exactly that you are objecting to?

[maraji]

Pranam
Have a look at your post no 9 in answer to Sahasranama, and my post no 13, I could be wrong in my assessment but you seems to be batting for Egyptian myth but ready to ridicule puranas and then you keep saying how wonderful puranas are. What ever our differences are in our perception, I don’t need to go on, it is there if you care to see. As for figure 85% you quote really has no value, we can produce all this statistics would amount to nothing . How scientific is it, does the question reflect what are the implications in accepting such bogus claim, what pramans are presented if at all? As for academia agreeing with each other is a big joke, it is well known how everything west is beautiful and the sun shines from the neither region to a lot of them.
I think I have said enough, no need to regurgitate what has already been said, with that I shell retire from this discussion.

[MahaHrada]

Pranam
Have a look at your post no 9 in answer to Sahasranama, and my post no 13, I could be wrong in my assessment but you seems to be batting for Egyptian myth but ready to ridicule puranas.
What I say is that the ancient Egyptian religion is gone from this planet and and was not revealed again, babylonian religion is gone from this planet not to be revealed again, why should this be different for Hinduism? What is gone is gone, it will not come back by a miracle, you have to protect Hindu Dharma yourself, when you do not want that it perishes. You cannot sit back and hope some God will do that for you. No miraculous resurrection of other advanced cultures and religions has happened in the past, so why should that happen in the future? I have never ridiculed puranas only said that one must be able to improve ones knowldege and not stick to beliefs that are obviously proven wrong by valid pramana.


... it is well known how everything west is beautiful and the sun shines from the neither region to a lot of them.
I have never mentioned the situation in the west with one word what are you talking about? Neither can I understand where you exactly disagree with me when you refuse to tell me.

[Believer]

Namaste,

......if it ever happens, He would make sure that this knowledge is revealed again by whatever means.We will all be reciting the Koran and that will become the de facto revealed knowledge.

What is gone is gone, it will not come back by a miracle, you have to protect Hindu Dharma yourself, when you do not want that it perishes.
+1

Many of us don't believe in the maxim that God helps only those who help themselves. We want to bury our heads in the sand and put the burden of sustaining the dharma on Him alone. Guess what, He has the responsibility to protect other religions too. ;)
So, you have to rise and take the lead in protecting your own.
That is, if you care about it at all.

Pranam.

PS,
Bolo, Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupad ki jai.
This should get some people riled up.:)

[Aum namah Śivāya]

Namaste,

There is no need to fear. As lon gas there is at least one master in the world, Go's Truth shall be known, as they see the Truth with perfect clarity, better than we could ever ourselves hope to until the vistas of Truth are opened to our eyes as well.

God is ever present. Why fear?

OM

[Mana]

Namaste

Paradoxically; it is fear that creates the problem in the first place. How does one know that it is not ones own fear, simply reflecting back?


praNAma

mana

[Believer]

Namaste,

Paradoxically; it is fear that creates the problem in the first place. How does one know that it is not ones own fear, simply reflecting back?There is a pragmatic view and there is a pacifist/new age/do-nothing view.
'Paradoxically' is a big word and I will have to look up the difinition in the dictionary. But when the Muslim population of India has increased from 8% to about 15% and the Hindu population has declined due to poaching by Islamists and Xitians, it does not take a genius to figure out that the problem is REAL and not arising out of fear. For someone totally insulated from the problem and sitting somewhere in the comfort and safety of ones home in the West, everything is hypothetical and the result of fear mongering. But for people in the midst of it, it is real and it is happening now, as we speak. One just has to remove the blinders and see the reality of it all.

Pranam.

[Aum namah Śivāya]

Namaste,
There is a pragmatic view and there is a pacifist/new age/do-nothing view.
'Paradoxically' is a big word and I will have to look up the difinition in the dictionary. But when the Muslim population of India has increased from 8% to about 15% and the Hindu population has declined due to poaching by Islamists and Xitians, it does not take a genius to figure out that the problem is REAL and not arising out of fear. For someone totally insulated from the problem and sitting somewhere in the comfort and safety of ones home in the West, everything is hypothetical and the result of fear mongering. But for people in the midst of it, it is real and it is happening now, as we speak. One just has to remove the blinders and see the reality of it all.

Pranam.

Namaste,

We must have faith. As I said, the Truth will never fail to shine, no matter what humans may do.

Fear-based consciousness only leads to more fear. I choose to trust in God.

OM

[Believer]

Namaste,

Namaste,

We must have faith. As I said, the Truth will never fail to shine, no matter what humans may do.

Fear-based consciousness only leads to more fear. I choose to trust in God.

OM
We must not bury our heads in sand and hope the problem goes away.
As I said, the violent religions will always decimate the pacifist ones.
Their TRUTH will shine, but it will not be the truth.
Hollow philosophical BS based consciousness only leads to annihilation.
God called me and told me to make an effort to save myself, only then He will help.
God does not care much about lazy a$$, do nothings.
The US presidents did not trust in God either, that is why they sent our troops to Iraq and Afghanistan to provide you the safety under which you can make your grandiose statements.
Please get real!

Pranam.

PS Even the Buddhists have taken up arms against the Hindus in Sri Lanka.

[Eastern Mind]

Vannakkam: I'm with Believer. We have to do what we can. It's our duty.

We have to vote for the most tolerant of politicians - the kind that will stand up in their own countries and send representatives to the UN who can stand up for what is right.

In India, we have to vote and campaign for politicians and parties who speak out against discrimination against Hindus, including unfair subsidies for minority religions, and taking of money from our temples for government coffers. We have to vote and campaign for a abolition of proseletysing and conversion under the guise of charity.

We have to educate ... send money to Indian and Hindu publications that speak of the glory of Hinduism, never degrading it. We have to spread the word that a Hindu society is a just society, a beautiful society, a loving society, and all of mankind's ultimate destiny. We have to speak out against quotas in universities, and any other discriminatory policies we may come across.

We have to open our pocketbooks and give hefty donations to Hindu groups to renovate temples, provide free food and housing to the impoverished. We have to speak out against caste based discrimination, and practice what we preach. We need to set examples by being dharmic stewards of the faith. Who but us has this duty? Certainly not someone else. To the newcomers ... it is your job too, this is not a religion of take but not give. It's your duty to give back in proportion to what you have received by being taken within the fold of SD. If its changed your life, then say thank you!

In America, and the west, it is our duty to guide interested souls back to dharma, not by being condescending or narrow, but by being gentle greeters at the door, not by force, but by common sense and our own enthusiasm.

We must resolve to set aside petty differences and restrain from combative argumentation within dharma. Save that energy for the adharmic blind ones who may come to our doors.

Aum Namasivaya

[Aum namah Śivāya]

Vannakkam: I'm with Believer. We have to do what we can. It's our duty.

We have to vote for the most tolerant of politicians - the kind that will stand up in their own countries and send representatives to the UN who can stand up for what is right.

In India, we have to vote and campaign for politicians and parties who speak out against discrimination against Hindus, including unfair subsidies for minority religions, and taking of money from our temples for government coffers. We have to vote and campaign for a abolition of proseletysing and conversion under the guise of charity.

We have to educate ... send money to Indian and Hindu publications that speak of the glory of Hinduism, never degrading it. We have to spread the word that a Hindu society is a just society, a beautiful society, a loving society, and all of mankind's ultimate destiny. We have to speak out against quotas in universities, and any other discriminatory policies we may come across.

We have to open our pocketbooks and give hefty donations to Hindu groups to renovate temples, provide free food and housing to the impoverished. We have to speak out against caste based discrimination, and practice what we preach. We need to set examples by being dharmic stewards of the faith. Who but us has this duty? Certainly not someone else. To the newcomers ... it is your job too, this is not a religion of take but not give. It's your duty to give back in proportion to what you have received by being taken within the fold of SD. If its changed your life, then say thank you!

In America, and the west, it is our duty to guide interested souls back to dharma, not by being condescending or narrow, but by being gentle greeters at the door, not by force, but by common sense and our own enthusiasm.

We must resolve to set aside petty differences and restrain from combative argumentation within dharma. Save that energy for the adharmic blind ones who may come to our doors.

Aum Namasivaya

Namaste,

Indeed, but all that will be for nought if we do not first establish a foundation of inner Peace and freedom in God. That will do far more good for all of humanity than anything that could be done outwardly. Without God, we are nothing. God is first, always. Otherwise, we act blindly. Let fear not dictate our actions, nor human judgment, but a firm foundation in the Divine.

OM

[Eastern Mind]

Namaste,

Indeed, but all that will be for nought if we do not first establish a foundation of inner Peace and freedom in God. That will do far more good for all of humanity than anything that could be done outwardly. Without God, we are nothing. God is first, always. Otherwise, we act blindly. Let fear not dictate our actions, nor human judgment, but a firm foundation in the Divine.

OM

Vannakkam: Fear is a western concept. What you say goes without saying. Its a given, just like reincarnation is. Of course we have to be religious and peaceful as a foundation. But from that base we have to act. Hindus don't just sit in caves and feel peaceful. (Some do, but that's not the path for most of us.) I'm talking about duty.

Aum Namasivaya

[MahaHrada]

Namaste,

Indeed, but all that will be for nought if we do not first establish a foundation of inner Peace and freedom in God. That will do far more good for all of humanity than anything that could be done outwardly. Without God, we are nothing. God is first, always. Otherwise, we act blindly. Let fear not dictate our actions, nor human judgment, but a firm foundation in the Divine.

OM

You preach just like a run of the mill american evangelical fanatic, maybe spice that up with some more hindu flavour next time?

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-b3clF-ustQg/TZHzfmENMmI/AAAAAAAABm8/V17MkyKuHs0/s1600/progressive-soup.jpg

[Aum namah Śivāya]

You preach just like a run of the mill american evangelical fanatic, maybe spice that up with some more hindu flavour next time?

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-b3clF-ustQg/TZHzfmENMmI/AAAAAAAABm8/V17MkyKuHs0/s1600/progressive-soup.jpg

Namaste,

What in my post was not Hindu?

OM

[Believer]

Namaste,

There are two things required for a religion to continue to exist:
People of that faith must practice it.
People of that faith must defend it.

Failing on either point results in the decline of that religion.
For someone to raise his consciousness by sucking the marrow out of Hindu theology and then saying 'I am not going to do anything to stand up for it' and leave it to God to do that is the highest form of selfishness - living in a house rent free, because God will pay the rent.
I am not sure how many different angles have to be pursued to make people understand that it is your duty to defend what you use every day to benefit you.
God is the front, center and rear of any existence. But having said that, it does not mean that we should give up our duty to protect what He has given us. Reluctance to scream when you are under attack will not get God's attention. He does need to hear your petition for help.

Pranam.

[Seeker]

Namaste
Imagine the following scenario.
All Hindu sastra are destroyed.
All memories of sastra are wiped from human memory
All things related to Hindus and Hinduism are wiped out ie no knowledge of it remains in this world.
All gurus fake or otherwise have no more knowledge of Hinduism


Would that be considered the end of Hinduism?

Yes it would be end of Hinduism.

But it would not be end of humanity or end of its quest for union with the Divinity.

I have read somewhere the following 'If the span of life on the earth is compressed to a day , then human beings havent appeared well into the last second.'. For a similar analogy, Vedas & Scriptures would have appeared in the last millisecond. It is just a matter of time another group of people will find the truth in another timeframe , and everyone will get a chance to know about the truth in their reincarnation cycles.

Hinduism so far has offered the best tool for the job. There could always be other tools for realizing the Self , which could even be better in the future.

[Seeker]

Namaste,

What in my post was not Hindu?

OM

ANS,

May be MH is satirical.

[Mana]

Namaste All,

I do understand the concerns that you express, from my Western point of view. I see the west at a tipping point, Science is about to admit its affinity with sanAtana dharma, all is becoming very clear to any who chose to look. The materialists are losing their minds, some find a path the others well they burn up.

I have sat and watched this develop over the last 20 years, all very predictable.

Britain and England are 10 years behind America, France is 10 years behind England. It would appear that India is about 50 years behind America; with Bollywood and TV just taking its role in the prime. I don't mean behind in a pejorative manor, only in regard to this cultural shift.

This cycle which is created by wealth is only just starting in India, however, I am not so sure that it can be diverted without major changes. It is created by a rift between generations a gap which opens to split dharma.

But why this split, what might cause this dryness?

I would say that your biggest concern is the rift, and not other religions.

These are just a symptom; cure the problem and they will go away.

I hope that you will not take any offence by my words, that you can see that my observation and perspective is one of a concerned friend, who has found his only thread of solace and lucidity in a very disturbed world in Hinduism and the mathematical forms of sanAtana dharma.

praNAma

mana

[devotee]

Namaste friends,

By reading your responses so far, I am sure, God is doing well and will be able to do His job perfectly well in future even if it happens what Satay has suggested. EM, Believer and other forum members are already planning to do something in this regard and God is already working through them and others in the world.

So, I can relax ! Thank you friends. I am sure SD is in safe hands. :)

OM

[MahaHrada]

Namaste,

What in my post was not Hindu?

OM

If i look at this posting and look at the terminology it already has the sound and feel of a sunday school sermon: foundation of inner peace, We must have faith, freedom in god, I choose to trust in God, Without God, we are nothing. God is first, always. Let fear not dictate our actions, nor human judgment. etc.

None of these points is part of Hindu doctrine, but all of it is christian mainstream and could have been broadcasted as it is on any christian network. Just add Family and and it will immediately remind one of the style and terminology of Rick Santorums campaign "Family Faith freedom"

Actually praising faith as superior to human judgement is one of the hallmarks of Christianity, "credo est quia absurdum" "I belive because of it being absurd" this is pure unadultered fideism ( a system of philosophy or an attitude of mind, which, denying the power of unaided human reason to reach certitude, affirms that the fundamental act of human knowledge consists in an act of faith, and the supreme criterion of certitude is authority. (Catholic Encyclopedia).)

Already the roman Emporer Julianus who tried to revive ancient paganism and sadly failed, mocked in his criticism of Christianity the insistance that the beliver has to become dumb as a child and must prefer faith over reason.
His book "The arguments of the emperor Julian against the Christians" http://archive.org/details/argumentsempero00romegoog
is enlightening to read even today.

Hindu dharma teaches the opposite: human judgement, discrimination or reason called in sanskrit " Viveka" or "Tarka" is considered way superior to "shraddha" trust or faith, shraddha or trust in the teachings and the teacher is just the first step while the human ability of correct Discrimination or Judgement, between what is real or unreal, is the most important instrument we have to reach atma Jnana, Moksha or Brahmavidya.

That means the christian concept that faith is superior to human judgement, that you preached in your sunday school sermon is the exact oppositte of what Yoga and Vedanta teaches.

Actually the same can be said of almost every sentence. For instance, you say: we have to be established in "freedom in God" that again is a purely christian concept based on the idea that Jesus saves because he died for our sins and therefore can free us from the consequences of our own actions (karma) free us from fear etc.

In Hinduism you do not get any "freedom in God" you have to work out your karma yourself. Indeed Hindu dharma does not at all teach freedom and self expression or whatever rights or privileges one imagines one can get for making "faith" or belief an important aspect in life, here as before Hinduism teaches the opposite not freedom but doing ones duty (dharma) is the pivot of life.

God is always first is another concept that is very important in abrahamic religions. Neither Vedanta and Yoga or Hinduism as such puts the devata or God first, but dharma and moksha, duty and liberation comes first, the concept of God is secondary worship and Japa or Meditation on the devas can help you either by devata anugraha (act of grace) or chitta shuddi, if you are a vedantin (act of purification of ones own mind) to attain the goals of life which are Artha (art, prosperity) Kama (pleasure) Dharma (duty) and finally Moksha, (liberation) also called Atma Jnana (knowledge of the self) or Brahmavidya (science of Brahman). There are even darshanas (philosophies) and paths where there is no necessity to belive in God to accomplish these aims. So the Question is not what is not Hindu about your sermon but what is Hindu, and the answer is not too much.

[kallol]

Namaste
Imagine the following scenario.
All Hindu sastra are destroyed.
All memories of sastra are wiped from human memory
All things related to Hindus and Hinduism are wiped out ie no knowledge of it remains in this world.
All gurus fake or otherwise have no more knowledge of Hinduism


Would that be considered the end of Hinduism?

Dear Satay,

This is nothing new. The TRUTH or what we call as Sanatana Dharama has been discovered by human or equivalent beings again and again. This human race will also end and again there will be new begining.

It comes in cycles of human evolution or at higher level Universe creation. So by design it is supposed to be rediscovered again and again.

It is true for everything - the material science and other sciences or knowledge

[Aum namah Śivāya]

If i look at this posting and look at the terminology it already has the sound and feel of a sunday school sermon: foundation of inner peace, We must have faith, freedom in god, I choose to trust in God, Without God, we are nothing. God is first, always. Let fear not dictate our actions, nor human judgment. etc.

None of these points is part of Hindu doctrine, but all of it is christian mainstream and could have been broadcasted as it is on any christian network. Just add Family and and it will immediately remind one of the style and terminology of Rick Santorums campaign "Family Faith freedom"

Actually praising faith as superior to human judgement is one of the hallmarks of Christianity, "credo est quia absurdum" "I belive because of it being absurd" this is pure unadultered fideism ( a system of philosophy or an attitude of mind, which, denying the power of unaided human reason to reach certitude, affirms that the fundamental act of human knowledge consists in an act of faith, and the supreme criterion of certitude is authority. (Catholic Encyclopedia).)

Already the roman Emporer Julianus who tried to revive ancient paganism and sadly failed, mocked in his criticism of Christianity the insistance that the beliver has to become dumb as a child and must prefer faith over reason.
His book "The arguments of the emperor Julian against the Christians" http://archive.org/details/argumentsempero00romegoog
is enlightening to read even today.

Hindu dharma teaches the opposite: human judgement, discrimination or reason called in sanskrit " Viveka" or "Tarka" is considered way superior to "shraddha" trust or faith, shraddha or trust in the teachings and the teacher is just the first step while the human ability of correct Discrimination or Judgement, between what is real or unreal, is the most important instrument we have to reach atma Jnana, Moksha or Brahmavidya.

That means the christian concept that faith is superior to human judgement, that you preached in your sunday school sermon is the exact oppositte of what Yoga and Vedanta teaches.

Actually the same can be said of almost every sentence. For instance, you say: we have to be established in "freedom in God" that again is a purely christian concept based on the idea that Jesus saves because he died for our sins and therefore can free us from the consequences of our own actions (karma) free us from fear etc.

In Hinduism you do not get any "freedom in God" you have to work out your karma yourself. Indeed Hindu dharma does not at all teach freedom and self expression or whatever rights or privileges one imagines one can get for making "faith" or belief an important aspect in life, here as before Hinduism teaches the opposite not freedom but doing ones duty (dharma) is the pivot of life.

God is always first is another concept that is very important in abrahamic religions. Neither Vedanta and Yoga or Hinduism as such puts the devata or God first, but dharma and moksha, duty and liberation comes first, the concept of God is secondary worship and Japa or Meditation on the devas can help you either by devata anugraha (act of grace) or chitta shuddi, if you are a vedantin (act of purification of ones own mind) to attain the goals of life which are Artha (art, prosperity) Kama (pleasure) Dharma (duty) and finally Moksha, (liberation) also called Atma Jnana (knowledge of the self) or Brahmavidya (science of Brahman). There are even darshanas (philosophies) and paths where there is no necessity to belive in God to accomplish these aims. So the Question is not what is not Hindu about your sermon but what is Hindu, and the answer is not too much.

Namaste MahaHrada,

Let me ask you, then, who are you without God? For myself, if i am merely an expression/manifestation of God, then my thinking that I am separate and can act independently of God would be rather foolish and only strengthen the illusion.

OM

[Eastern Mind]

Namaste MahaHrada,

Let me ask you, then, who are you without God? For myself, if i am merely an expression/manifestation of God, then my thinking that I am separate and can act independently of God would be rather foolish and only strengthen the illusion.

OM

Vannakkam: You asked. MH went out of his way and put a lot of effort into a long and detailed explanation of why he considered your comments more Christian than Hindu. I expected you were going to toss it out regardless. Such is the pointlessness of such debates. Too many people come along proposing they are interested in Hinduism, and then when they get answers they don't like, or ones that don't fit into their world, its all discarded as invalid somehow.

If you have questions about Hinduism, many here would like to answer, and will even take a lot of effort to explain as well as they can the Hindu (at least a Hindu POV, as we do differ from sect to sect) but then you're not satisfied with the answers. So what do you expect from us?

Hindus are nice people, but not so easily swayed into thinking along Abrahamic lines.

Aum Namasivaya

[Aum namah Śivāya]

Vannakkam: You asked. MH went out of his way and put a lot of effort into a long and detailed explanation of why he considered your comments more Christian than Hindu. I expected you were going to toss it out regardless. Such is the pointlessness of such debates. Too many people come along proposing they are interested in Hinduism, and then when they get answers they don't like, or ones that don't fit into their world, its all discarded as invalid somehow.

If you have questions about Hinduism, many here would like to answer, and will even take a lot of effort to explain as well as they can the Hindu (at least a Hindu POV, as we do differ from sect to sect) but then you're not satisfied with the answers. So what do you expect from us?

Hindus are nice people, but not so easily swayed into thinking along Abrahamic lines.

Aum Namasivaya

Namaste EM,

I had no interest in debating, and had no questions about Hinduism per se. I'm quite happy with my path and following my guru's teachings, so it's rare that I look for outside advice now.

I never said it was invalid. It is his opinion of course, and I disagree with it, but that's also my right. I didn't see the need to respond to his points, though I did read them and take them into consideration.

I have nothing but love for everyone here, but I don't agree with everything that is said, especially when other religions are called "garbage." Unfortunately, I see the same intolerance in many here that they rail against in people of other faiths. So no, I cannot agree with that.

But we are all on the same path, even if it has different expressions. For me, what matters most is what God and guru guide me to do in life, and that is all.

OM

[Eastern Mind]

But we are all on the same path, even if it has different expressions.
OM

Vannakkam: You may believe this, but many here would beg to differ ... like me for instance.
:)
What is your goal in life, for example?

Most definitely your concept of 'guru' differs with most as well. Generally, just because you read a swami's book doesn't mean he has taken you on as a sishya, which by definition in most cases indicates a guru-sishya relationship. Forgive me if you have met your guru and he has taken you on as a student.

Aum Namasivaya

[Believer]

Namaste,

When somebody talks like a broken record and would not even consider another POV supported by long explanations, it is fruitless to carry on the conversation. 'All paths lead to the same divine', or 'we are all on the same path' is the new age mumbo jumbo that has been discussed to death before. Same attitudes, new people. First it was only God, today it is God and guru. Tomorrow there may be a third element in the equation. It is a meaningless open ended back and forth with no convergence.

Pranam.

[Aum namah Śivāya]

Vannakkam: You may believe this, but many here would beg to differ ... like me for instance.
:)
What is your goal in life, for example?

Most definitely your concept of 'guru' differs with most as well. Generally, just because you read a swami's book doesn't mean he has taken you on as a sishya, which by definition in most cases indicates a guru-sishya relationship. Forgive me if you have met your guru and he has taken you on as a student.

Aum Namasivaya

Namaste EM,

Your first question is easy. I took what is called the Pilgrim Vow in Swami Kriyananda's Nayaswami order. Every day I repeat that vow, and the first sentence reads thus:


I understand, and intend from now on to live by my understanding, that life is a pilgrimage, of which the final goal is to find and merge back into God.

It can't be said better than that. :D

As for my guru, that is between he and I alone, so I will not say anymore on that matter. However, I think that you have some very incorrect assumptions about me. :)

OM

[wundermonk]

After having throught through the question in the OP of this thread, I think IF all Shastras, etc. were destroyed, Hindus are wiped out, etc. Hinduism IN ITS CURRENT FORM [couched in Indian cultural mores, based of Sanskrit, etc.] will not reemerge.

But, for a theist, the philosophy of Hinduism can be established purely on rational grounds by answering the following questions:

(1)What was God doing before creation?
(2)What is the material cause of the universe?
(3)Why does God create if she is all blissful?
(4)Can Hitler go to heaven?
(5)Why is the world evil/partial?
(6)Why did God not create the universe 5 minutes before when she actually did?
(7)How many souls did God create?
(8)What algorithm does God use to allocate souls to newborns?

Of course, an atheist will not even admit the existence of an afterlife/soul. So, these questions are useless in debates with an atheist.

But if a theist thinks about these questions rationally [without already conceding his heart and mind to his religious scripture of choice], it will lead to the philosophy of Hinduism whether the theist is Chinese, African or Indian.

:)

[MahaHrada]

Swami Kriyananda's Nayaswami order.
OM

This explains a lot, this man (James Donald Walters) is a convicted criminal former disciple of Yogananda expelled from self realisation fellowship for reasons wikipedia: desire for personal power, ulterior motives in his service, and setting himself up as the new guru.[14] SRF gave as a reason "specific actions of his–his basic pattern of behavior."[15] and later also brought to court:
wikipedia:
Self-Realization Fellowship brought charges against Kriyananda and Ananda over various copyright and trademark issues. The litigation lasted for around twelve years (1990-2002).
furthermore:
In 1997–98, Anne-Marie Bertolucci, a former resident of Ananda filed suit against Ananda, Ananda minister Danny Levin, and Swami Kriyananda. In the course of the trial, eight women testified under oath that Kriyananda had used his power as the leader of Ananda to obtain sexual gratification from them when they were in their 20s.[28] Kriyananda admitted sexual contacts with most of the women but with full consent[29] but denied it constituted sexual abuse.

The jury found the church (Ananda), and Kriyananda liable for "constructive fraud", with a finding of "malice and fraudulent conduct". The church, Kriyananda and Levin were found liable for "intentional infliction of emotional distress" with a finding of "malice" and a finding of "despicable conduct" against the church. The church was found liable for "negligent supervision" of Kriyananda, with a finding of "malice and fraud" on the part of the church.

[n March, 2004, Italian authorities raided the Ananda colony in Assisi, responding to allegations of a disgruntled former resident who accused Ananda Assisi of fraud, usury and labor law violations. Nine Ananda residents were detained for questioning. They also had a warrant for Kriyananda's detention, but Kriyananda was in India. A seven-year long investigation followed.[32] In March 2009 the judge ruled that the case was "non luogo a procedere perché il fatto non sussiste" (not to be continued as the matter is without substance).

More info
http://www.anandauncovered.com/IndexENG.htm seems to be done by srf
http://www.anandainfo.com/services/index.htm former disciples
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swami_Kriyananda wikipedia

I think there is no need of any further debates or replys, obviously in a mind control cult, one´s own reasoning, Viveka or Tarka is discouraged. What is going on here is obvious. Same old sad story.

[Aum namah Śivāya]

This explains a lot, this man (James Donald Walters) is a convicted criminal former disciple of Yogananda expelled from self realisation fellowship for reasons wikipedia: desire for personal power, ulterior motives in his service, and setting himself up as the new guru.[14] SRF gave as a reason "specific actions of his–his basic pattern of behavior."[15] and later also brought to court:
wikipedia:
Self-Realization Fellowship brought charges against Kriyananda and Ananda over various copyright and trademark issues. The litigation lasted for around twelve years (1990-2002).
furthermore:
In 1997–98, Anne-Marie Bertolucci, a former resident of Ananda filed suit against Ananda, Ananda minister Danny Levin, and Swami Kriyananda. In the course of the trial, eight women testified under oath that Kriyananda had used his power as the leader of Ananda to obtain sexual gratification from them when they were in their 20s.[28] Kriyananda admitted sexual contacts with most of the women but with full consent[29] but denied it constituted sexual abuse.

The jury found the church (Ananda), and Kriyananda liable for "constructive fraud", with a finding of "malice and fraudulent conduct". The church, Kriyananda and Levin were found liable for "intentional infliction of emotional distress" with a finding of "malice" and a finding of "despicable conduct" against the church. The church was found liable for "negligent supervision" of Kriyananda, with a finding of "malice and fraud" on the part of the church.

[n March, 2004, Italian authorities raided the Ananda colony in Assisi, responding to allegations of a disgruntled former resident who accused Ananda Assisi of fraud, usury and labor law violations. Nine Ananda residents were detained for questioning. They also had a warrant for Kriyananda's detention, but Kriyananda was in India. A seven-year long investigation followed.[32] In March 2009 the judge ruled that the case was "non luogo a procedere perché il fatto non sussiste" (not to be continued as the matter is without substance).

More info
http://www.anandauncovered.com/IndexENG.htm seems to be done by srf
http://www.anandainfo.com/services/index.htm former disciples
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swami_Kriyananda wikipedia

I think there is no need of any further debates or replys, obviously in a mind control cult, one own reasoning, viveka or tarka is discouraged. What is going on here is obvious. Same old sad story.

Namaste MH,

You cannot believe everything you read. The allegations were made up by SRF in order to ruin Kriyananda's reputation and bankrupt Ananda. In reality, Ananda won 95% of the charges brought against them, and the court has agreed with its right to spread Yogananda's teachings, which would not have been possible if SRF had its way.

Please get both sides of the story before spreading such misinformation.

OM