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ZarryT
20 May 2012, 11:06 AM
Is it plausible that someone's karma could be proportioned such that the only life they can live once they die is the same life again and so each and every time they die for all eternity they are reborn as themselves at the same time and date to the same parents?

Mana
20 May 2012, 11:17 AM
हरिः ओम्


Namaste ZarryT,


An interesting thought, but I should say ; No it is not possible.

The Universe is a highly dynamic place, one fundamental law here on earth is that water must flow in order to remain clean;
stagnant water very quickly reproduce new and differentiated life; often harmful to that which is blocking the flow, thus
eradicating the blockage or at the very least transforming it.

I don't believe for this reason that time ever replays the exact same cycle; as we can observe, for example, in the Mandelbrot set.

Just thoughts mind you; impossible to prove either way.


pranāma

mana


ॐ नमः शिवाय
Aum Namaḥ Śivāya

IcyCosmic
20 May 2012, 11:21 AM
Wow, that sure is a brain rattler. I would assume, that anything is possible basing it on the magnificent and sometimes outlandish tales within the scriptures....but then again....

For that to happen, I don't think its possible, the keyword being 'eternal', maybe once? maybe even twice? but lightning won't strike in the same place for eternity...

ZarryT
20 May 2012, 11:29 AM
Wow, that sure is a brain rattler. I would assume, that anything is possible basing it on the magnificent and sometimes outlandish tales within the scriptures....but then again....

For that to happen, I don't think its possible, the keyword being 'eternal', maybe once? maybe even twice? but lightning won't strike in the same place for eternity...

Well if the individual's karma was so arranged that every action they do leads to every other action in their lives, with all of those actions eventually leading to their own birth, then they would necessarily be born as themselves over and over again for all eternity, and there wouldn't be a first, second or last time. It would be once, but the same once forever.

IcyCosmic
20 May 2012, 11:31 AM
Well if the individual's karma was so arranged that every action they do leads to every other action in their lives, with all of those actions eventually leading to their own birth, then they would necessarily be born as themselves over and over again for all eternity, and there wouldn't be a first, second or last time. It would be once, but the same once forever.

How is it possible for every family of the member, to all have this same arranged action of patterns, and since you accumulate karma for every thought and action in any plane of existene, whether mental or physical (it being so intricate) its damn near impossible for someone to recreate the exact same karmic bank?

yajvan
20 May 2012, 11:33 AM
hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

namasté


Is it plausible that someone's karma could be proportioned such that the only life they can live once they die is the same life again and so each and every time they die for all eternity they are reborn as themselves at the same time and date to the same parents?
I have two views on this matter... how would any one know ? The person that lived life-after-life? We in the human condition can barely remember what we had for dinner yesterday, no ? So, what is possible may need to be measured to confirm the possibility. Who is to measure ?

The second idea, I will leave for a later post.

praṇām

Eastern Mind
20 May 2012, 11:43 AM
Vannakkam: Although some days it feels like it ... same old thing, same old thing, same old thing ... I believe that No, it is not possible. Maybe with each of Siva's breaths between each mahapralaya, we repeat, but that would really be taking some memory! Not just yesterday's lunch.

Aum Namasivaya

Equinox
20 May 2012, 11:54 AM
We evolve in every birth, whether for the better or for the worse, but never remain the same.

Every birth we take gives us a different set of experiences and this causes different types of karma... to be born into the same family even twice isn't quite possible.

ZarryT
20 May 2012, 12:58 PM
हरिः ओम्


Namaste ZarryT,


An interesting thought, but I should say ; No it is not possible.

The Universe is a highly dynamic place, one fundamental law here on earth is that water must flow in order to remain clean;
stagnant water very quickly reproduce new and differentiated life; often harmful to that which is blocking the flow, thus
eradicating the blockage or at the very least transforming it.

I don't believe for this reason that time ever replays the exact same cycle; as we can observe, for example, in the Mandelbrot set.

Just thoughts mind you; impossible to prove either way.


pranāma

mana


ॐ नमः शिवाय
Aum Namaḥ Śivāya


But it could be that since in the state of death, between the death and birth of that individual, the period of forgetting wipes the slate clean; the individuals karma happens to bring about the same events again.

ZarryT
20 May 2012, 01:01 PM
hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

namasté


I have two views on this matter... how would any one know ? The person that lived life-after-life? We in the human condition can barely remember what we had for dinner yesterday, no ? So, what is possible may need to be measured to confirm the possibility. Who is to measure ?

The second idea, I will leave for a later post.

praṇām


The question of "how would anyone know" contributes greatly to the position i am speculating here.

Say you were reincarnated as someone else. You would never know that you had been the you that you are right now.

So, from your perspective, it doesn't matter whether you repeat this life or have a new one - since you'll never know that it's repeating.

ZarryT
20 May 2012, 01:02 PM
We evolve in every birth, whether for the better or for the worse, but never remain the same.

Every birth we take gives us a different set of experiences and this causes different types of karma... to be born into the same family even twice isn't quite possible.

But if the "first birth" produces the set of experiences and types of karma sufficient and necessary for producing itself, then there will only be that one life, on repeat. There would be no previous life to differentiate it from, and there would be no next life in which to have a different set of karma.

IcyCosmic
20 May 2012, 01:17 PM
I am almost sure that this isn't quite possible, Zarry. Even if it was because it is beyond us humans current comprehension, surely god will bring forth some 'divine intervention' or their shall be some fitting 'Leela' in order to bring nature back on its correct course and allow the cogs to move freely as if they were before. I understand what you're saying though, that since they recreate in exactly the same manner, that is the course of nature and god has no means to interfere with the laws of the universe, therefore leaving the individual in eternal reccurence.
Difficult to answer...I guess we shall never know

Equinox
20 May 2012, 01:35 PM
Zarry, I dont think any of us in this forum would have the ability to remember who we were in our past lives, let alone what we did then. So you wouldn't get a definite answer.

yajvan
20 May 2012, 02:00 PM
hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

namasté


Say you were reincarnated as someone else. You would never know that you had been the you that you are right now.

This question is -----> who is the real you that goes from body to body ?

If we look to the the praśna upaniṣad (2.7) it give us the insight of who comes and goes:
O, prāṇa as prajāpati you move within the wombs; you yourself are born repeatedly.These creatures in each of whom you dwell along with prāṇa-s brings offerings to you.

Note in this verse in the praśna upaniṣad, prāṇa =prajāpati = brahman. Now the point I relish is prāṇa =prajāpati = brahman = 'I'. Pure I = pure consciousness = cetana.

So as we go from body to body, who is coming and going ? For those reading this and ask, yajvan, you say isn't prāṇa life-breath, life energy. I say yes, yet in the upaniṣads and confirmed in the brahma-sūtra-s prāṇa has a ~ higher value ~ of brahman.

This insight is also supported in the bhāgavad gītā .


praṇām

wundermonk
20 May 2012, 02:07 PM
But if the "first birth" produces the set of experiences and types of karma sufficient and necessary for producing itself, then there will only be that one life, on repeat. There would be no previous life to differentiate it from, and there would be no next life in which to have a different set of karma.

There are two forms of non-existence in Hindu philosophy.

One is the non-existence such as a barren woman's son. Since this is never experienced, but a birth is experienced, this non-existence is not the correct analogy when referring to a birth.

The second form of non-existence is the non-existence of a pot when the potter has not started working on it. Thus anything that comes into being is from pre-existing material/actions/qualities. So, anything that "begins to exist", for instance a pot, exists because it has been made out of pre-existing material/actions/qualities like clay.

If there is a third form of non-existence that precedes an existence, the mechanism should be spelt out and defined so that it can be examined under logical scrutiny.

Thus, as things stand now, there is no "first birth" for the self. There would ALWAYS be a previous life to differentiate it, and there would ALWAYS be a next life in which to have a different set of karma. There really is nothing illogical about an infinite regress of beginningless Karma. :)

ZarryT
20 May 2012, 02:59 PM
Zarry, I dont think any of us in this forum would have the ability to remember who we were in our past lives, let alone what we did then. So you wouldn't get a definite answer.

Which in a sense also means that it doesn't matter - so we might as well live the same life again, rather than a new one, thus keeping all the same loved-ones and loved events...

Aum namah Śivāya
20 May 2012, 03:04 PM
Namaste,

Even if this happened, it is the freely-chosen thoughts, words and actions that create karma. So in two different lifetimes, the same situation might have you responding in a different way due to your free will. Even one slightly different response would be enough to change the karma just enough to change the set of experiences you have.

For instance, let's say you are insulted by a friend. One person might take offense and use physical violence against the friend. One person will feel hurt and say some angry words to the friend. Yet another person wouldn't say anything but would have angry thoughts for a while afterwards. Finally, another person would not take offense at all.

Each of these responses would result in very different karma, or no karma at all. Since your reactions are not 100% directed by your karma, you would likely make a different decision somewhere along the way, and so break out of the cycle.

OM

Aum namah Śivāya
20 May 2012, 03:07 PM
Which in a sense also means that it doesn't matter - so we might as well live the same life again, rather than a new one, thus keeping all the same loved-ones and loved events...

Namaste,

That's not really your conscious decision, though. Even if you lived the same lifetime, as others have pointed out, not all of your loved ones and friends would also be stuck in this cycle along with you. So you would encounter different souls, anyway, or some of the same souls in very different circumstances.

OM

Kismet
20 May 2012, 11:38 PM
Is it plausible that someone's karma could be proportioned such that the only life they can live once they die is the same life again and so each and every time they die for all eternity they are reborn as themselves at the same time and date to the same parents?

If so, then everyone within their karmic sphere (parents, acquaintances, people on the street, even animals and insects) would have to recur along with them. But since this seems unlikely we could only posit that there are an infinite number of dopplegangers in an infinite number of universes whose karmas somehow manage to synchronize in just the right way. Sounds like a stretch unless like me you're into talk of possible worlds. :P

..Or perhaps everyone you meet is a simulacrum, who knows?:D

ZarryT
21 May 2012, 06:53 AM
Let's try a slightly different thought experiment then.

Could there be a set of typical experiences, which, while not generating identical events, still guarantee the recurrence of a theme?

So in the way that James Cameron's Avatar, Pochahontas and Dances With Wolves all tell roughly the same story, but with different character names / places and so on, could reincarnation work for each individual in the same way?
Such that, whilst not living the same experiences twice, the story works in the same way?

In the same way the cycles of the universe have the same theme each time - there is always a kali yuga, for example.

What do you think?

Eastern Mind
21 May 2012, 08:00 AM
Vannakkam: I would think of this in one sense only, and that is in the way the soul learns. Sometimes the lesson needs to be repeated until we get it, just as a student learning math may need repetition. But them once that life lesson is learned, we can move on. So I can see it applying is some sort of temporal way.

Aum Namasivaya

ZarryT
21 May 2012, 11:33 AM
Vannakkam: I would think of this in one sense only, and that is in the way the soul learns. Sometimes the lesson needs to be repeated until we get it, just as a student learning math may need repetition. But them once that life lesson is learned, we can move on. So I can see it applying is some sort of temporal way.

Aum Namasivaya

What if a particular soul existed which simply never learns its lesson, and thus is stuck in the same place forever?

Aum namah Śivāya
21 May 2012, 11:48 AM
What if a particular soul existed which simply never learns its lesson, and thus is stuck in the same place forever?

Namaste,

If you touch a hot stove enough, you'll eventually learn that it is unwise to do so.

The more you reject a lesson, it generally becomes more intense the next time around until you have to learn it.

OM

Eastern Mind
21 May 2012, 11:53 AM
What if a particular soul existed which simply never learns its lesson, and thus is stuck in the same place forever?

Vannakkam: It's a hypothetical only, and I personally find little use in discussing such things. Sorry. But if you want to imagine that Groundhog Day is real, that's up to you.
:)
Aum Namasivaya

wundermonk
21 May 2012, 12:25 PM
What if a particular soul existed which simply never learns its lesson, and thus is stuck in the same place forever?

Per Samkhyan metaphysics, the action in this world is via the interaction of Sattva, Rajas and Tamas - which are together called Prakriti.

It is only during Pralaya [dissolution] that there is complete stillness in these entities. In states other than Pralaya, the attribute of these three gunas [qualities] is to constantly interact with each other. Thus, there is always action and motion in states other than Pralaya.

Given this metaphysical foundation, a soul will never be stuck - for the Karma of the soul accumulates/withers away due to the very identification/discrimination of the self from the non-self [Prakriti]. As sattva, rajas and tamas constantly interact with one another, and the self's role is one of manifestation, the self is ALWAYS cognizant of the action in the gunas - either via misidentification or discrimination. Thus, the Karma of a soul is never "stuck".

ZarryT
21 May 2012, 02:56 PM
Vannakkam: It's a hypothetical only, and I personally find little use in discussing such things. Sorry. But if you want to imagine that Groundhog Day is real, that's up to you.
:)
Aum Namasivaya

Hahah, Groundhog day is a pretty similar scenario i guess, except that takes place on one repeating day, and the subject is aware of it; with the eternal return, the subject forgets, and it is a whole lifetime which repeats.

Kismet
21 May 2012, 09:54 PM
No offense, but why the pessimism?

Or perhaps its not pessimism... if the story on repeat is a lovely one anyway... Still, even the best story gets tiresome (this is from someone who watched Jurassic Park over a hundred times as a kid).

..And yes, the story wouldnt be tiresome from the POV of the "recuree" but there's still something, third-personally perhaps, disagreeable about the whole situation...

brahman
22 May 2012, 12:46 AM
Is it plausible that someone's karma could be proportioned such that the only life they can live once they die is the same life again and so each and every time they die for all eternity they are reborn as themselves at the same time and date to the same parents?





Dear ZarryT,

“One who has understood this truth beyond doubt – he is not born again; nor does he die.”

Thus Katha Upanishad (कठ उपनिषद्)

Read full (http://www.vedarahasya.net/katha.htm) especially the chapters I & II.

Love:)

ZarryT
22 May 2012, 05:25 AM
No offense, but why the pessimism?

Or perhaps its not pessimism... if the story on repeat is a lovely one anyway... Still, even the best story gets tiresome (this is from someone who watched Jurassic Park over a hundred times as a kid).

..And yes, the story wouldnt be tiresome from the POV of the "recuree" but there's still something, third-personally perhaps, disagreeable about the whole situation...

Let's assume that the story is perfectly balanced in terms of its drama: just enough love, hate, friendship, betrayal, joy, tragedy, despair etc.

As for the story getting tiresome, if at the birth the recuree doesn't remember that they have done it all before, then it would be the same as watching a new story - seeing jurassic park for the first time, every time you watch it.

ZarryT
22 May 2012, 05:42 AM
Dear ZarryT,

“One who has understood this truth beyond doubt – he is not born again; nor does he die.”

Thus Katha Upanishad (कठ उपनिषद्)

Read full (http://www.vedarahasya.net/katha.htm) especially the chapters I & II.

Love:)

These chapters don't really deal with this question that much, but:

"“This syllable (OM) is the (lower aspect of) Brahman; this is the highest aspects of Brahman as well. If one understands this, he gets all his desires fulfilled. Whatever he desires for becomes his immediately.”
"


I would posit a reading of this whereby the immediate fulfillment of desire isn't something attained or acquired through understanding om, but rather understanding of om makes it most obvious to them that their desires have always been fulfilled, immediately; that this is the case for everyone, but those who do not understand om will simply not realise. (This would entail that when we suffer, it is merely because we want to suffer).

Now, as for the eternal return, this would imply that it is possible - should that soul's desire be to repeat this one life once more and evermore, then so it would be the case.


Also, to look at the full quote that you truncated:

“One who has understood this truth beyond doubt – he is not born again; nor does he die. This Atma is not given birth to or produced by something. Nothing else is produced from this Atma also. This (the Atma) is birth less, ever existent and immortal. It precedes everything else and it is not destroyed even when the physical body (where it resides) is destroyed.”


This seems to describe an Atma in the eternal return; if it is an eternal atman "precedes everything else" and "is not given birth to or produced by something", then there is no "first time round" - there is no birth for it as such.


Is this why you posted the reference? Or did you have something else in mind?


(both above quotes are from Katha II)

devotee
22 May 2012, 06:17 AM
Namaste Zarry,

The answer is "NO". The Karmas produce results which depend upon time and environment. So, the results, though might be similar in effect to the subject, (the Jeeva) may not be exactly the same in different environment. So, once the environment is changed, there will be different stimulations for creating different Karmas. This creates infinite possibilities for Karmas to produce results and infinite possibilities to produce "child karmas". So, first of all, doing exactly same karma in every birth is not possible due to the uncertainties involved and further due to infinite possibilities related with environment, the results are most likely to manifest differently. It is like a person who was born in Dark Ages due to some Karma will perform something different due to environment prevailing at that time and a person with same karma today would be born in a totally different environment with different possibilities to do different Karmas. There is effect of Time (Kaal) and space (sthAn) on the Karma and its results.

There is another thing to remember, the "i" is not the same all the time and doesn't identify itself with its previous births' "i"s unless it can see from awakened state. This "i", which arises from conditioned Consciousness, that you are, keeps changing with environment. So, there is continuity in births to births but not in the way we may like to believe.

OM

brahman
22 May 2012, 06:26 AM
This seems to describe an Atma in the eternal return; if it is an eternal atman "precedes everything else" and "is not given birth to or produced by something", then there is no "first time round" - there is no birth for it as such.


Is this why you posted the reference? Or did you have something else in mind?


(both above quotes are from Katha II)




Dear ZarryT,

Is this why you posted the reference?

Yes

Or did you have something else in mind?

No


In addition to it: Yama’s statement on how the soul fares after death is actually confined to only one verse. The rest of the section is wholly devoted to the birthless and deathless reality of Brahman. It is clear that the statement on Life After Death will be taken seriously by the ignorant, and that of Wisdom will be taken seriously by the true seeker. Both cannot be true for the same person! Unless we approach these verses with such discrimination we will surely be misled.

Yama makes it clear and satisfy the ignorant thus:
“Some enter into a womb for embodiment; others enter stationary objects according to their deeds and according to their knowledge”

Love:)

ZarryT
22 May 2012, 06:28 AM
Namaste Zarry,

The answer is "NO". The Karmas produce results which depend upon time and environment. So, the results, though might be similar in effect to the subject, (the Jeeva) may not be exactly the same in different environment. So, once the environment is changed, there will be different stimulations for creating different Karmas. This creates infinite possibilities for Karmas to produce results and infinite possibilities to produce "child karmas". So, first of all, doing exactly same karma in every birth is not possible due to the uncertainties involved and further due to infinite possibilities related with environment, the results are most likely to manifest differently. It is like a person who was born in Dark Ages due to some Karma will perform something different due to environment prevailing at that time and a person with same karma today would be born in a totally different environment with different possibilities to do different Karmas. There is effect of Time (Kaal) and space (sthAn) on the Karma and its results.

There is another thing to remember, the "i" is not the same all the time and doesn't identify itself with its previous births' "i"s unless it can see from awakened state. This "i", which arises from conditioned Consciousness, that you are, keeps changing with environment. So, there is continuity in births to births but not in the way we may like to believe.

OM


But if Karma is eternal and uncreated, then how can an environment create different karma?

Let me ask the question in a different way.

Begin with the assumption that it is actually the case for one individual in history. What would that imply about the way their karma is structured?

It seems to me that it would imply a perfect balance - one such that no further life is needed for learning - that it has learnt all through one life. This life would contain all punishment and reward for the agent's actions within this one life. It would also imply that there is little to no causality involved in the sequence of events in that life.

What do you think? Can you think of any other implications?

ZarryT
22 May 2012, 06:30 AM
Dear ZarryT,

Is this why you posted the reference?

Yes

Or did you have something else in mind?

No


In addition to it: Yama’s statement on how the soul fares after death is actually confined to only one verse. The rest of the section is wholly devoted to the birthless and deathless reality of Brahman. It is clear that the statement on Life After Death will be taken seriously by the ignorant, and that of Wisdom will be taken seriously by the true seeker. Both cannot be true for the same person! Unless we approach these verses with such discrimination we will surely be misled.

Yama makes it clear and satisfy the ignorant thus:
“Some enter into a womb for embodiment; others enter stationary objects according to their deeds and according to their knowledge”

Love:)


So would you be in agreement with the idea that this life is its own life-after-its-death?

ZarryT
22 May 2012, 06:32 AM
Thus, the Karma of a soul is never "stuck".

I think perhaps you have misunderstood the way i have used "stuck". I don't mean that it is static, but that it is paradoxical and self-sustaining; that an individual's life happens to manifest karma which ultimately is responsible for that being's incarnation as itself!

brahman
22 May 2012, 06:47 AM
So would you be in agreement with the idea that this life is its own life-after-its-death?





Dear ZarryT,

You still see some ‘life’, which is against what I have been taught, What real is Brahman alone, Real cannot have any variety as such as, birth, life and death etc.

Yet the fixed idea of reincarnation has a positive value of its own. Since Birth and death are real in the eyes of the ignorant, the idea of reincarnation helps them maintain a belief in the immortality of the self while at least giving the hope of attaining it sometime in the unknown future. Also this theory compels its believers to live their lives by doing good karmas; I don’t deny the potent ethical value it Zarry. Love:)

ZarryT
22 May 2012, 06:55 AM
Dear ZarryT,

You still see some ‘life’, which is against what I have been taught, What real is Brahman alone, Real cannot have any variety as such as, birth, life and death etc.

Yet the fixed idea of reincarnation has a positive value of its own. Since Birth and death are real in the eyes of the ignorant, the idea of reincarnation helps them maintain a belief in the immortality of the self while at least giving the hope of attaining it sometime in the unknown future. Also this theory compels its believers to live their lives by doing good karmas; I don’t deny the potent ethical value it Zarry. Love:)

For me, "life" is not something distinct from Brahman, but instead is an activity for brahman. It is a thing to do, and it gets the name "life"
- rather than life itself being an entity or a location or something like that.

In my understanding, birth and death are simultaneously real and not real - ultimately, they are not real, but they are still as real as they could ever be.

There are a lot of ethical considerations to the eternal return which flip a lot of traditional ideas about karma and preparing for a future life completely on their heads!

devotee
22 May 2012, 06:57 AM
But if Karma is eternal and uncreated, then how can an environment create different karma?

Karma is not uncreated or eternal. Karma means "action" ... so Karma has to be performed by some agency. Someone has to own a Karma. How can it be uncreated and eternal ?



Begin with the assumption that it is actually the case for one individual in history. What would that imply about the way their karma is structured?
It seems to me that it would imply a perfect balance - one such that no further life is needed for learning - that it has learnt all through one life. This life would contain all punishment and reward for the agent's actions within this one life. It would also imply that there is little to no causality involved in the sequence of events in that life.

There is need to have a shift on such line of thinking. Though there is learning involved in living a life ... there is "really" no learning needed. This life is not for learning ... it actually is not a school ... though it apparently appears to be so. You are not in the cycles of births and deaths because you need some lessons (what lessons can be learnt who is Consciousness Itself) ... it is because you are not free from samskArs of desires, fears etc.

The "vibration" in consciousness which is basically "desires" creates this multitude. The gross-body existence (in waking State) and subtle-body existence (in Dreaming state) is for fulfilling these desires. However, fulfilling these desires comes with a cost as per Laws of Nature within these two states. So, you go through alternating pleasures and pains arising out of various Karmas. These Karmas don't take you to a definite direction. That is Buddha said, "Getting another life in human body and getting such chances for enlightenment" is an extremely rare possibility. Shankara too says similar to that. So, if the Karmas are not roasted within this lifetime and you do good Karmas you would get a favourable opportunity in the next birth no doubt ... but how the Karmas will go in new life is not guaranteed.

OM

ZarryT
22 May 2012, 07:03 AM
Karma is not uncreated or eternal. Karma means "action" ... so Karma has to be performed by some agency. Someone has to own a Karma. How can it be uncreated and eternal ?



There is need to have a shift on such line of thinking. Though there is learning involved in living a life ... there is "really" no learning needed. This life is not for learning ... it actually is not a school ... though it apparently appears to be so. You are not in the cycles of births and deaths because you need some lessons (what lessons can be learnt who is Consciousness Itself) ... it is because you are not free from samskArs of desires, fears etc.

The "vibration" in consciousness which is basically "desires" creates this multitude. The gross-body existence (in waking State) and subtle-body existence (in Dreaming state) is for fulfilling these desires. However, fulfilling these desires comes with a cost as per Laws of Nature within these two states. So, you go through alternating pleasures and pains arising out of various Karmas. These Karmas don't take you to a definite direction. That is Buddha said, "Getting another life in human body and getting such chances for enlightenment" is an extremely rare possibility. Shankara too says similar to that. So, if the Karmas are not roasted within this lifetime and you do good Karmas you would get a favourable opportunity in the next birth no doubt ... but how the Karmas will go in new life is not guaranteed.

OM


I posit that a life without desire and fear is a life not worth living, and that even the liberated will willingly subject themselves to desire and fear for the sake of experiencing a dramatic story. If Brahman wanted to sit in blissful contemplation 100% of the time, there would be no need to be born in the first place.

This is to say that freedom from suffering is not identical with no longer experiencing suffering; the freedom just implies that the suffering is no longer a big deal; the agent is the master of their suffering. They still suffer, but they recognize that they want to suffer, and they understand why they want to suffer. The unliberated suffer, thinking that they don't want to; so they are not free from it - it happens to them and they don't think they are in control of it. To tell the unliberated that they suffer because they want to suffer doesn't make sense to them.

brahman
22 May 2012, 07:17 AM
For me, "life" is not something distinct from Brahman, but instead is an activity for brahman. It is a thing to do, and it gets the name "life"







Dear ZarryT,

‘Life’ is a good terminology, but the sastras (scriptures) term it differently, the creative urge abides in Brahman is called 'Karma'

“The specific creative urge that causes the emanation of all beings is to be understood by the term Karma”. BG: III-27

Love:)

ZarryT
22 May 2012, 07:35 AM
Dear ZarryT,

‘Life’ is a good terminology, but the sastras (scriptures) term it differently, the creative urge abides in Brahman is called 'Karma'

“The specific creative urge that causes the emanation of all beings is to be understood by the term Karma”. BG: III-27

Love:)



I'm terming the activity "life". The sastra 'Karma' as the creative urge of brahman is more like the fundamental principles which establish what exactly the activity of 'life' actually is; that which determines the character and nature of a life

devotee
22 May 2012, 10:31 AM
I posit that a life without desire and fear is a life not worth living, and that even the liberated will willingly subject themselves to desire and fear for the sake of experiencing a dramatic story. If Brahman wanted to sit in blissful contemplation 100% of the time, there would be no need to be born in the first place.

Brahman is not some being. It is neither being nor non-being. So, your concept of Brahman needs change before you can proceed correctly.


This is to say that freedom from suffering is not identical with no longer experiencing suffering; the freedom just implies that the suffering is no longer a big deal; the agent is the master of their suffering. They still suffer, but they recognize that they want to suffer, and they understand why they want to suffer. The unliberated suffer, thinking that they don't want to; so they are not free from it - it happens to them and they don't think they are in control of it. To tell the unliberated that they suffer because they want to suffer doesn't make sense to them.

It is not what you think. I think you need some time to strike at the root of concepts which stop us from progressing. There is no 'i', no 'you', no 'they' but yet 'i', 'you' and 'they' arise ... not because someone wants ... not because Brahman wants (it would be ridiculous) but because It is like that ! There is no valid ultimate answer to "why"s of this Reality. It is like Laws of Nature. It is as It is. There is no reason why It is so.

Best wishes ....

OM

ZarryT
22 May 2012, 10:38 AM
Brahman is not some being. It is neither being nor non-being. So, your concept of Brahman needs change before you can proceed correctly.



It is not what you think. I think you need some time to strike at the root of concepts which stop us from progressing. There is no 'i', no 'you', no 'they' but yet 'i', 'you' and 'they' arise ... not because someone wants ... not because Brahman wants (it would be ridiculous) but because It is like that ! There is no valid ultimate answer to "why"s of this Reality. It is like Laws of Nature. It is as It is. There is no reason why It is so.

Best wishes ....

OM


I already understand Brahman as being neither a being or not-being; brahman is all that which is; it is not a distinct and separate entity. This is already my understanding.

I disagree that there is no valid answer to the "whys" of this Reality. I think the "whys" are, in fact, quite simple and obvious. But we're at very different places on very different paths, i think... I'm not working towards enlightenment, for a start...

brahman
23 May 2012, 12:02 AM
I'm terming the activity "life". The sastra 'Karma' as the creative urge of brahman is more like the fundamental principles which establish what exactly the activity of 'life' actually is; that which determines the character and nature of a life





Dear ZarryT,


I'm terming the activity "life".

‘Life’ is a western terminology; equivalent used in Advaitha Vedantha is Jiva, which is the erroneous product of ignorance(Adhyasa/maya/avidya..).



The sastra 'Karma' as the creative urge of brahman is more like the fundamental principles which establish what exactly the activity of 'life' actually is; that which determines the character and nature of a life.

If you agree to this and have a proper understanding of the context of karma, what is the significance of this question?

OP reads
Is it plausible that someone's karma could be proportioned such that the only life they can live once they die is the same life again and so each and every time they die for all eternity they are reborn as themselves at the same time and date to the same parents?

Love:)

ZarryT
30 May 2012, 09:42 AM
Dear ZarryT,



‘Life’ is a western terminology; equivalent used in Advaitha Vedantha is Jiva, which is the erroneous product of ignorance(Adhyasa/maya/avidya..).



If you agree to this and have a proper understanding of the context of karma, what is the significance of this question?

OP reads

Love:)


My understanding of jiva is that it refers to a life. I use the term life as a name, like "chess" or "football". It's the name of the game, nothing more. I'm not referring to living as such; living is like footballing or chessing.

As for the question, it appears there shouldn't be any conflict between karma and the notion of eternal recurrence, though it would be a very particular case...

brahman
31 May 2012, 07:14 AM
My understanding of jiva is that it refers to a life. I use the term life as a name, like "chess" or "football". It's the name of the game, nothing more. I'm not referring to living as such; living is like footballing or chessing.

As for the question, it appears there shouldn't be any conflict between karma and the notion of eternal recurrence, though it would be a very particular case...




Dear ZarryT,


Vedantha examines reality under three categories viz. Sat Cit and Anadana, it is not mere ontology that affirms factors concerning the existence. epistemology as well as axiology to be weighed.

No mixing up of philosophical terminologies and 'frame of references'; I am happy as long as you are happy. Please carry on..

Love:)