PDA

View Full Version : Chakra systems



Shuddhasattva
05 June 2012, 07:34 AM
Namaste

Most are somewhat familiar with the concepts of chakras - spinning wheels or vortexes in the subtle body corresponding to junctures of nadis (subtle nerves). Kundalini is said to traverse upwards reabsorbing and purifying the elements until achieving union with Shiva as Parashakti.

Much of this information has, unfortunately, been watered down for mass consumption.

The source text (for the usual version given of the chakra system) seems to be the Sat-Chakra-Nirupana, first translated into English by John Woodroffe (Arthur Avalon) in The Serpent Power. This text goes over 6 major chakras leading up to the 7th, also touching on the minor chakras between Ajna and the Brahmarandra (aperture at the top of the Sahasrara). This is followed up by the Paduka Pancaka, also published in the Serpent Power, which focuses on these minor chakras.

But what about other chakra systems? What of the system of Radha Soami? of Gorakhnath? Of others? Are traces to be found in the puranas, the agamas, etc.? What about the Vedas?

My intention in starting this thread is to explore beyond the six chakra system as well as perhaps to shed additional light on it.

However, my own efforts would be entirely insufficient to the task, and therefore I humbly request the respected contribution of HDF's many knowledgeable members to build this thread.

Namaste

Shuddhasattva
05 June 2012, 08:56 AM
Namaste

"Dearest, (in the pinda exist) the chakras of five lines, 16 lines, sixty four petals, the truly beautiful 100 petal (lotus)[Agnya?] and the beautiful thousand petal lotus [Sahasrara] and above this is a very brilliant 10,000,000 petal lotus. Above the 10 million petal lotus is a 30,000,000 petal lotus, each pericarp of which is similar to a flame. Above this is the all encompassing, eternal, undivided, independent, steady lotus – pervading all, stainless. By its will (sveccha) it causes creation and dissolution. Both the animate and inaminate are dissolved in this linga."
(Kaulajnananirnaya Tantra, third chapter, attributed to Matsyendranath, 11th century CE)

[Courtesy Mike Magee's work at shivashakti.com]


An article on Gorakhnath's version of the chakras (or at least, a version) written by Gopi Nath Kaviraj is also reposted on shivashakti.com:
http://www.shivashakti.com/gorchak.htm

Excerpt of particular interest (to me, anyway):


On crossing this one comes up to the Brahmarandhra in the cranium (mUrdhasthAna), with its multi-coloured 1,000 petals. This is the so called Sahasrara of the mystic literature - the Aim and End of all spiritual progress. It is here that the Guru and the Chaitanya Sakti reside.
One would naturally expect that the series of chakras would come to an end here. But the picture on which the above account is based, mentions 6 chakras more beyond the Sahasrara, viz. (a) Urdharandhra, (b). Bhramaraguha, (c) Akunthapitha Punyagara, (d) Kolhata, (e) Vajradanda and (f) Niradhara Paramajyotischakra. The Urdharandhra, called Talu chakra in the Ms, is seated in the Talima and is a 64-lobed chakra, presided by Goraksanatha and Siddhanta sakti. This statement is interesting as it gives us an idea of what the followers of the path thought in connection with the founder of their school. The Bhramaraguha, also called Alekha, i. e. Alaksya chakra (called Brahma Chakra6 in the Ms), is the place, where samadhi-yoga ensues, and prana and manas cease to work. The lotus is described as furnished with ten millions of lobes and wonderfully brilliant. The presiding God of this centre is Alaksyanatha, the Sakti called Maya (= Mahamaya?; Akula in the Ms.) and the Rsi Mahavisnu.
The higher Chakra with an equal number of lobes has Akalanatha as Devata, Akalesvari as Sakti and as Akala as Rsi.
The Kolhata Chakra is in the Sikhamandala and corresponds to the Vaikuntha of the Vaisnavas and Kailasa of the Saivas. Both the Devata and the Sakti are named Ananta7. The Ms. calls this region a road to the Highest Void (paramashUnyamArga).
The description of Vajradanda is not very clear. It is said to be, as I understand it to be, in the form of a column, vast (mahAvishAla), lustrous (tejaHpu~njaprabhA) and long (dIrgha).
The final Chakra is in the Niralambasthana, with an infinite number of lobes, colours, matrkas, devas and worlds. This is the Highest Seat of the Gurudeva.
Beyond this is a series of 20 voids of which nothing is said. The Ms. observes that Final Liberation takes place in the Great Void (paramashUnyasthAna) above 21 Brahmandas. Transcending the great Void the Yogin becomes eternally free from 'coming and going', i. e. the wheel of birth and death: sa cha yogI tiShThati yuge yuge jyotiH sametya



Here is another chakra system consisting of 8 chakras of 8 petals each originating from the Kaulajnana Nirnaya (note: the same source as the topmost quote regarding chakras above the sahasrara, but obviously different systems) attributed to Matsyendrenath (Gorakhnath's guru):
http://www.shivashakti.com/mat2.htm

Shuddhasattva
08 June 2012, 06:44 AM
Namaste

An additional point I'd like to raise (briefly for now) is the heart chakra(s).

Anahata (unstruck, as in unstruck sound; the pravana (AUM)) is generally regarded as the heart chakra. However, some texts mention an additional 8 petaled heart chakra (where the anahata is 12 petaled). This chakra is generally dubbed the "Hrit" chakraor refered to as the Hridaya Guha. This chakra is accorded special significance as an altar of worship, above and beyond the sahasrara or, in the systems which include them, the chakras above the head.

Amrut
26 June 2012, 09:17 AM
Namaste,

Sri Ramana Maharshi in Sri Ramana Gita says that the heart chakra is located 2 inches tot the right of anahat chakra (from center of chest) and is not connected to any body part.

This chakra even supports sahastra chakra.

Though many have not experienced it.

For Sri Ramana heart means source or Atman. When one experiences samadhi, and when mind returns to physical body, it tries to pull or rather keep that experience of bliss and first experience is at this chakra and then consciousness enters other chakras and then physical body.

This is the explanation given by Sri Ramana Maharshi when one questioned that if Atman is not the body so how can you pin point it to a point within the body.

Aum

Giza
27 June 2012, 02:32 AM
As long as we're discussing chakra systems, can anyone comment on the existence of the 7 alleged chakras below the muladhara?

The Atala in the hips said to govern fear and lust; the Vitala in the thighs, associated with anger and resentment; the Sutala in the knees, governing jealousy; Talatala in the calves bringing "confusion and instinctive wilfulness" (my sources for the names, locations and functions is Wikipedia, so I'm fully prepared to be corrected :o) the Rasatala in the ankles, bringing "selfishness and pure animal nature"; Mahatala in the feet, "the dark realm 'without conscience', and inner blindness" ; and finally Patala in the soles of the feet, "the realm of malice, murder, torture and hatred, borderings on the realm of Naraka, or Hell."

My own experience leads me to believe that the negative effects of these alleged "bad chakras" have been made up, and for good reason. In my own practice of meditation on my subtle body (not limited to my chakras) I've found that meditating on the feet, legs, hips, etc. lead to the stimulation of the muladhara chakra. I have not found any adverse effects from concentrating on the locations of these "animalistic" chakras whatsoever; quite the opposite in fact. I believe that without first having cleared blocked energy from these locations, it is very hard to stimulate muladhara effectively.

Kundalini yoga is such a powerful practice, that it is my conclusion that these "bad chakras" were a bit of propaganda put out to keep people from hurting themselves. Maybe the intention was that if someone tried to take up meditation without a guru to tell him the truth, he just wouldn't make very much progress?

Does anyone agree with my idea? Has anyone found any substance in the claims of negative effects in these chakras?

Amrut
27 June 2012, 02:43 AM
@Giza,

There are chakras at places which you have mentioned. These are all minor chakras.

I have done cources in pranic healing and as per my knowledge, minor chakras are not associated with any emotions.

I do not think they are bad for us and have negative effrct.

infact when transferring energy, we were thought not to transfer from any major chakra, but through these minor chakras.

When one is thinking or passing energy, cords are linked between both and energies are exchanged.

So some negative energy of patient might get transferred to you and may block or clog your major chakra. But if you pass is from say crown or heart through palm chakra, then only palm chakra might get affected.

It is more safe to transfer or scan energy from minor chakra than major chakra.

Again, these are not found in any shastras, Just learned them in pranic healing courses. So you may or may not agree.

Giza
27 June 2012, 03:07 AM
@Giza,

There are chakras at places which you have mentioned. These are all minor chakras.

I have done cources in pranic healing and as per my knowledge, minor chakras are not associated with any emotions.

I do not think they are bad for us and have negative effrct.

infact when transferring energy, we were thought not to transfer from any major chakra, but through these minor chakras.

When one is thinking or passing energy, cords are linked between both and energies are exchanged.

So some negative energy of patient might get transferred to you and may block or clog your major chakra. But if you pass is from say crown or heart through palm chakra, then only palm chakra might get affected.

It is more safe to transfer or scan energy from minor chakra than major chakra.

Again, these are not found in any shastras, Just learned them in pranic healing courses. So you may or may not agree.
What you're saying is consistent with my personal experience, thank you.

Twilightdance
27 June 2012, 03:23 AM
My own experience leads me to believe that the negative effects of these alleged "bad chakras" have been made up, and for good reason. In my own practice of meditation on my subtle body (not limited to my chakras)

Not just the "badness" but these chakras are also made up. Atala vetala etc are names of puranic lower worlds - somebody was ingenuous to link them to "animal chakras". I will be grateful if anyone can show me where in yoga texts these "animal chakras" are mentioned even passingly. Older reference to chakras are much simpler with few 4 to 5 chakras as spoked wheels rather than colorful lotuses. The only place where these lower points are referenced and used for physical healing is Chinese Tao, I believe - they are certainly not "bad" and may not be part of Yoga, but Tao [which I think is a fairly advanced and deep system - but credit should got to Tao, and we need not call them chakras].


I've found that meditating on the feet, legs, hips, etc. lead to the stimulation of the muladhara chakra. I have not found any adverse effects from concentrating on the locations of these "animalistic" chakras whatsoever; quite the opposite in fact. I believe that without first having cleared blocked energy from these locations, it is very hard to stimulate muladhara effectively. I think focusing anywhere on the gross body is always good, particularly when mind is disturbed.

Giza
27 June 2012, 04:02 AM
I will be grateful if anyone can show me where in yoga texts these "animal chakras" are mentioned even passingly.

Well, I believe I have read of the "bad chakras" in the sat chakra nirupana actually, but I have no idea how credible that scripture is. If I have time I'll look for the specific location of the reference.

Giza
27 June 2012, 04:28 AM
Well, I believe I have read of the "bad chakras" in the sat chakra nirupana actually, but I have no idea how credible that scripture is. If I have time I'll look for the specific location of the reference.
For the life of me I can't find it. I must have made it up.:dunno:

Shuddhasattva
27 June 2012, 07:18 AM
Namaste

The above concerns correspondence between lokas (worlds, or planes of existence) and chakras, a correspondence not without shastric support.

Here is John Woodroffe on the subject of Lokas from his Introduction to Tantra Shastra:

THE WORLDS (LOKAS)
THIS earth, which is the object of the physical senses and of the knowledge based thereon, is but one of four- teen worlds or regions placed “above” and “below” it, of which (as the sūtra says1) knowledge may be obtained by meditation on the solar “nerve” (nāḍi) suṣumṇā in the merudaṇḍa. On this nāḍ i six of the upper worlds are threaded, the seventh and highest overhanging it in the Sahasrāra-Padma, the thousand-petalled lotus. The sphere of earth (Bhūrloka), with its continents, their mountains and rivers, and with its oceans, is the seventh or lowest of the upper worlds. Beneath it are the Hells and Nether World, the names of which are given below. Above the terrestrial sphere is Bhuvar- loka, or the atmospheric sphere known as the antarikṣ ā, extending “from the earth to the sun,” in which the Siddhas and other celestial beings (devayoni) of the upper air dwell. “From the sun to the pole star” (dhruva) is svarloka, or the heavenly sphere. Heaven (svarga) is that which delights the mind, as hell (naraka) is that which gives it pain.2 In the former is the abode of the Deva and the blest.
These three spheres are the regions of the conse- quences of work, and are termed transitory as compared

1 Bhuvanajnānaṃ sūrye saṃ yamāt, Patanjali Yoga-Sutra (chap. iii, 26). An account of the lokas is given in Vyāsa’s commentary on the sūtra, in the Viṣ ṇ u-Purāṇ a (Bk. II, chaps. v-vii): and in the Bhāgavata, Vāyu, and other Purāṇ as.
2 Viṣ ṇ u-Purāṇ a (Bk. II; chap. vi). Virtue is heaven and vice is hell, ibid, Narakamināti = kleśaṃ prāpayati, or giving pain.

with the three highest spheres, and the fourth, which is of a mixed character. When the jīva has received his reward he is reborn again on earth. For it is not good action, but the knowledge of the Ātmā which procures Liberation (mokṣ a). Above Svarloka is Maharloka, and above it the three ascending regions known as the janaloka, tapoloka, and satyaloka, each inhabited by various forms of celestial intelligence of higher and higher degree. Below the earth (Bhah) and above the nether worlds are the Hells1 (commencing with Avichi), and of which, according to popular theology, there are thirty-four2 though it is elsewhere said3 there are as many hells as there are offences for which particular punishments are meted out. Of these six are known as the great hells. Hinduism, however, even when popular, knows nothing of a hell of eternal torment. To it nothing is eternal but the Brahman. Issuing from the Hells the jīva is again reborn to make its future. Below the Hells are the seven nether worlds, Sutala, Vitala, Talātala, Mahātala, Rasātala, Atala, and Pātāla, where, according to the Purāṇ as, dwell the Nāga serpent divin- ities, brilliant with jewels, and Dānavas wander, fasci- nating even the most austere. Yet below Pātāla is the form of Viṣ ṇ u proceeding from the dark quality (tamo- guṇ ah), known as the Seṣ a serpent or Ananta bearing the entire world as a diadem, attended by his Śakti Vāruṇ ī,4 his own embodied radiance.

Shuddhasattva
27 June 2012, 07:26 AM
Namaste

From the Devi Bhagavatam:

There are the 350,000 nâdis in this body of man; of these, the principal are ten. Out of the ten again, the three are most prominent. The foremost and first of these three is Susumnâ, of the nature of the Moon, Sun, and Fire, situated in the centre of the spinal cord (it extends from the sacral plexus below to the Brahmaradhra in the head at the top where it looks like a blown Dhustûra flower). On the left of this Susumnâ is the Idâ Nâdî, white and looking like Moon; this Nâdî is of the nature of Force, nectar-like. On the right side of the Susumnâ is the Pingalâ Nâdî of the nature of a male; it represents the Sun. The Susumnâ comprises the nature of the all the Tejas (fires) and it represents Fire.
31-41. The inmost of Susumnâ is Vichtrâ or Chitrinî Bhûlingam nâdî (of the form of a cobweb) in the middle of which resides the Ichchâ (will), Jñâna (knowledge) and Kriyâ (action) S'aktîs, and resplendent like the Millions of Suns. Above Him is situated Hrîm, the Mâyâ Vîja Harâtmâ with "Ha" and Chandravindu repesenting the Sound (Nâda). Above this is the Flame, Kula Kundalinî (the Serpent Fire) of a red colour, and as it were, intoxicated. Outside Her is the Âdhâra Lotus of a yellow colour having a dimension of four digits and Comprising the four letters "va", "s'a", "sa", and "sa". The Yogis meditate on this. In its centre is the hexagonal space (Pîtham). This is called the Mûlâdhâra for it is the base and it supports all the six lotuses. Above it is the Svâdhisthâna Chakra, fiery and emitting lustre like diamond and with six petals representing the six letters "ba", "bha", "ma", "ya", "ra", "la". The word "Sva" means "Param Lingam" (superior Male Symbol). Therefore the sages call this "Svâdhisthân Chakram. Above it is situated the "Manipura Chakram" of the colour of lightning in clouds and very fiery; it comprises the ten Petals, comprising the 10 letters da, dha, na, ta, tha, da, dha, na, pa, pha. The lotus resembles a full blown pearl; hence it is "Manipadma." Visnu dwells here. Meditation here leads to the sight of Visnu, Above it is "Anâhata" Padma with the twelve petals representing, the twelve letters Ka, Kha, Gha, m###, (cha), (chha), (Ja), (Jha,) Îya, ta, and tha. In the middle is Bânalingam, resplendent like the Sun. This lotus emits the sound S'abda Brabma, without being struck; therefore it is called the Anâhata Lotus. This is the source of joy. Here dwalls Rudra, the Highest Person."

42-43. Above it is situated the Vis'uddha Chakra of the sixteen petals, comprising the sixteen letters a, â, i, î, u, û, ri, ri, li, lri, e, ai, o, ar, am, ah. This is of a smoky colour, highly lustrous, and is situated in the throat. The Jîvâtmâ sees the Paramâtmâ (the Highest Self) here and it is purified; hence it is called Vis'uddha. This wonderful lotus is termed Âkâs'a.
44-45. Above that is situated betwixt the eyebrows the exceedingly beautiful Ajñâ Chakra with two petals comprising the two letters "Ha," and Ksa. The Self resides in this lotus. When persons are stationed here, they can see everything and know of the present, past and future. There one gets the commands from the Highest Deity (e. g. now this is for you to do and so on); therefore it is called the Ajñâ Chakra.
46-47. Above that is the Kailâs'a Chakra; over it is the Rodhinî Chikra. O One of good vows! Thus I have described to you all about the Âdhâra Chakras. The prominent Yogis say that above that again, is the Vindu Sthân, the seat of the Supreme Deity with thousand petals. O Best of Mountains! Thus I declare the best of the paths leading to Yoga.
48. Now hear what is the next thing to do. First by the "Pûraka", Prânâyâma, fix the mind on the Mulâdhâra Lotus. Then contract and arouse the Kula Kundalinî S'aktî there, between the anus and the genital organs, by that Vâyu.
49. Pierce, then, the Lingams (the lustrous Svayambhu Âdi Lingam) in the several Chakras above-mentioned and transfer along with it the heart united with the S'akti to the Sahasrâra (the Thousand petalled Lotus). Then meditate the S'aktî united with S'ambhu there.
50-51. There is produced in the Vindu Chakra, out of the intercourse of S'iva and S'aktî, a kind of nectar-juice, resembling a sort of red-dye (lac). With that Nectar of Joy, the wise Yogis make the Mâyâ S'aktî, yielding successes in Yoga, drink; then pleasing all the Devas in the six Chakras with the offerings of that Nectar, the Yogi brings the S'aktî down again on the Mûlâdhâra Lotus.
52. Thus by daily practising this, all the above mantras will no doubt, be made to come to complete success.


[Tr.: Swami Vijñanananda]

Twilightdance
28 June 2012, 04:07 AM
Arthur Avalon's intro is not good enough - I also know the linking of the vedic sapta vyahritis with chakras through my root guru, but believe such association is a late link up. Same with respect to puranic lower worlds.

But Abhinavagupta & KS links each chakras to bhuvanas and their adhipatis as well as the more well known tattvas and tattvadhipatis.

Anyway, you have partly misunderstood what I was requesting for - I was asking for the mention of these lower or "animal" chakras in yogic texts. There may be some, and in that case I would like to know. If the sapta chakras can be linked to vedic seven worlds, no doubt sevel lower chakras can be linked to puranic lower worlds. But would like to know about the 7 lower chakras first.

Adhvagat
01 July 2012, 03:19 AM
The chakras are organs of consciousness they are located in the body just like consciousness is also located in the body: in a paradoxal non-linear manner.

Amrut
01 July 2012, 04:29 AM
Thank you @Shuddhasattva

That's really enlightening. I always wondered, where exactly are the explanation of chakras and their lokas are given. I had heard them in a lecture, but at that time, the source was not given, or I do not remember them.

Namaste

Aum

IS

Eastern Mind
01 July 2012, 08:16 AM
Vannakkam: This knowledge came through from mystics, who, in deep meditation, were able to see the chakras. Personally, I will never truly believe in them until I 'see' them in the same way, confirming what others have seen before me. Scripture does come from somewhere, not just some vivid imagination, and then is verified independently.

Aum Namasivaya

Amrut
01 July 2012, 01:35 PM
@Eastern Mind

Vannakkam

Shastras are colection of experiences of innumerable Realized saints since time immemorial. They can be definitely applied in today's time. They can be applied in practical life.

Faith is, `To believe what you do not see', the reward of which is, `you see what you believed'. - Swami Chinmaya.

:)

Aum

IS

Amrut
01 July 2012, 01:56 PM
Vannakkam @Eastern Mind

another analogy

Q: I want to learn to swim

A: Alright then go ahead and jump in water

Q: No, first I will learn to swim and then jump in water

A: If you want to learn to swim, then jump in water.

Q: No but I want to learn first and then jump in water

A: How can you learn if you do not jump?

:)

Aum

Eastern Mind
01 July 2012, 05:31 PM
Vannakkam Indiaspirituality: I think you may have misunderstood. The icing on the cake is experience. Right now I am at 99.999 % belief. Either that or you are saying you have seen the chakras in their resplendent many-petalled glories within the spine via the ajna chakra, or some other.

The scriptures are a guide, the teacher is a guide. Nobody does the realisation for you. If that were the case, libraries wouldn't be libraries, they'd be temples.

Aum Namasivaya

Twilightdance
02 July 2012, 01:36 AM
The chakras are organs of consciousness they are located in the body just like consciousness is also located in the body: in a paradoxal non-linear manner.

Organs of consciousness are the jnanendriyas, manas, chitta [omitted some times], aham and buddhi. Chakras may be centers or locations in the subtle bodies from where our internal organs of consciousness function at various points, encountered during a samhara process.

But I doubt chakras are really colourful lotuses, vajrayana description is quite different.

In reality, I believe, the chakra systems in vogue are mnemonic devices to re-start a journey back to source. Mnemonic devices [and not just chakras but most things concerning adhyatma] cannot be taken as literal truths and without the guide of a true inner and outer guru it is hard to put these devices to actual use except for fantasizing - which we see is often the case. Actual chakra unfolding can possibly be different for different individuals.

Amrut
02 July 2012, 03:57 AM
Vannakkam Indiaspirituality: I think you may have misunderstood. The icing on the cake is experience. Right now I am at 99.999 % belief. Either that or you are saying you have seen the chakras in their resplendent many-petalled glories within the spine via the ajna chakra, or some other.

The scriptures are a guide, the teacher is a guide. Nobody does the realisation for you. If that were the case, libraries wouldn't be libraries, they'd be temples.

Aum Namasivaya

Vannakkam Eastern Mind,

+1

I agree with you.

What I mean to say is that the first step is to believe and have faith. Even though you have complete faith in shastras and your Guru, and you strongly believe in shakras or any thing in general, still as time, passes doubts creep from backdoor. Only realization or direct experience can uproot the doubt completely.

Again when you experience, it is not in your hands. It's in the hands of God to make you experience, directly or indirectly through an external Guru in Meditation or sometimes with open eyes when you are not meditating. Some things are not in control of ourselves. Spiritual progress and experiences during meditation are one of them. You get experiences according to your prakruti (mindset). Not everyone feels or experiences chakras, but that does not mean they are by any means inferior or not advanced.

Afterall, everything, includng chakra, comes under Maya and one has to go beyond Maya.

But if you do not have faith in yourself, shastras, Guru and God, then you will not be able to experience this.

You have to take first step. If you look at shadow and then you should not complain that I cannot see the sun.

There may be many experiences. But if they are in tune with those mentioned in shastras, then it confirms that you are not right track. When you suddenly experience brilliant white light or experience a vibration of heart chakra or pressure on your top of head, sahastra chakra, then you know that this is the feeling of chakra. Here the knowledge of shastras help us.

If am on advaita path. So when I got such experience, I know it is chakra or a subtle body. So I calm down and do not try to explore it, as advaita do not give importance to these experiences. You have to neglect them, be aware of AUM / OM and find the source, or ask 'Who am I' if I am not chakra, then neglect it and find the source.

But if I do not know that such and such thing exists, then I may think that since this has happened in meditation, it is the grace of God and I should explore it and worse, I think hope that this experience should be repeated.

I have passed from this states, so I can tell you that Shastras are pointers, but are very important. So is Guru. He is necessary, though you will have to meditate for your own salvation. There is also something called as Grace. Grace of Guru and God. I have also experienced this.

Not all days are same. Meditation is not same on all days. So when I am stuck up sometimes, before I feel that I cannot come out of it instead of repeated attempts, immediately, in a second or two, my mind is cleared adn I can effortlessly meditate on mantra, which a moment ago, I found it extremely difficult to keep away the thoughts. Suddenly, where did thoughts dissappear.

I hope you are getting my point.

I understand and completely agree with what you say :)

The thing is not many people meditate - seriously, sincerely and regularly.

Aum

IS

Adhvagat
04 July 2012, 08:01 PM
Organs of consciousness are the jnanendriyas, manas, chitta [omitted some times], aham and buddhi. Chakras may be centers or locations in the subtle bodies from where our internal organs of consciousness function at various points, encountered during a samhara process.

But I doubt chakras are really colourful lotuses, vajrayana description is quite different.

In reality, I believe, the chakra systems in vogue are mnemonic devices to re-start a journey back to source. Mnemonic devices [and not just chakras but most things concerning adhyatma] cannot be taken as literal truths and without the guide of a true inner and outer guru it is hard to put these devices to actual use except for fantasizing - which we see is often the case. Actual chakra unfolding can possibly be different for different individuals.

Well, semantically speaking, those are the organs per se, but you can't dissociate the postulation of chakras (centers of consciousness) from organs of consciousness/actions/karma.

But the term organs of consciousness makes more sense to me, because the chakras are more related to levels of consciousness and how consciousness relates to one's body in a physiological, psychological way.

The thing about being a literal truth or not is kind of a mind game.

One may say that a thing only exists in subjective sense, but saying that to devalue it makes no sense, since subjectivity is an objective part of existence.

Complex realm of existence we're located at... :p

Shuddhasattva
05 July 2012, 10:38 AM
Namaste

May I suggest that you are both essentially right.

The bhutas/tanmatras/etc are correlated to the first 5 major chakras.

Moreover, chakras represent gateways to senses beyond the 5 grossly physical ones.

Namaste

Twilightdance
05 July 2012, 11:45 AM
The thing about being a literal truth or not is kind of a mind game.

It is not about mind games but attaching false objective certitudes to things which are essentially just indications causes lot of confusion - a syndrome from which Hindus particularly suffer from. We speculate about "ultimate" with such brazen confidence as if it was set on stone. Subjectivity basically means the truth is beyond objective characterization in our consciousness. It does not mean subjectivity is itself the nature of truth. Rather it is just the error of measuring device [subject] by which we are left to communicate the deeper aspects of consciousness. Buddhists for example are much more clear about this and the fallacy of deterministic certitude concerning what ultimate reality is.

Twilightdance
05 July 2012, 12:26 PM
Moreover, chakras represent gateways to senses beyond the 5 grossly physical ones.

Namaste

?? ... what super senses are you talking about? On contrary it is by the group of 5 by which we can cognize anything. Problem is not with senses or sense organs or their number, but how we cognize the sensual experience. So when Malas are gone the yogi doesn't end up with 7,9 or 13 sense's over the existing 5 - but rather, what he/she cognizes through 5 is "complete" in some sense, than it was in "ordinary" experience. Pancikaran or making it five is the essential part of a ritual which symbolizes and reinforces this very fact where the arghya nectar is relished through the 5 senses [displaying of 5 mudras].

Since you also follow buddhism, this aspect is again made explicitly clear in buddhism where in the heart sutra [prajnaparamitahrdaya sutra] as it triumphantly declares that not only that form is emptiness - but emptiness is form.
Oh, Sariputra, Form Does not Differ From the Void,
And the Void Does Not Differ From Form.
Form is Void and Void is Form.

Further clarified in the mulamadhyamaka karika that experience of nirvana is not different from experience of samsara.
There is no difference at all between Samsara and Nirvana! There is no difference at all between Nirvana and Samsara!

The spirit is no different in kaula tantrism. If one however reads excessively into the exaggerated synthetic system of trika - one can draw wrong conclusions. JMO. My opinions are not set on stone also and continuously changing. But I do think Trika is guilty of idealizing a practical system [kaula], by synthesizing with shaiva siddhanta and other philosophies, aesthetics to build the ultimate philosophy. But till I can read the entire tantraloka - I cannot draw very solid conclusions as well, but that won't be any time soon.

Shuddhasattva
05 July 2012, 01:02 PM
it is by the group of 5 by which we can cognize anything.Namaste

I do not believe this is supported by shastra save in the most abstract sense, insofar as the 5 base elements are also the microcosm which contain in their subtle form additional, non-material senses - to put it in Buddhist perspective, the 5 pure lights / Dhyani Buddhas.

Only by these 5 can gross, 3 dimensional form be cognized by gross, embodied consciousness. However, perception of higher dimensional constructs, and the non-constructed, non-processual is inherently parasensory.

As you have seen fit to quote the heart sutra, the astasahasrika prajnaparamita, which is likely the source text for all prajnaparamita sutras, mentions many mystical doors of perception.

The different samadhis enumerated in Buddhism are different subtle senses.

Namaste

Twilightdance
05 July 2012, 01:33 PM
samdhis or mental states or intermediate states are many - but it may not be [is not in my opinion] correct to label them as having anything to do with having additional sense organs. Would be glad if you could enumerate other senses than the group of 5s [in their gross & subtle forms] from shastras you mention. What else knowledge senses [or means of knowledge a.k.a surya mandala] apart from seeing, touching, tasting, smelling & hearing +mind & intellect is mentioned and where [not enumeration of samadhis which is an union of subject-object-means of knowledge and can be many many]? Thanks in advance.

Twilightdance
05 July 2012, 01:37 PM
The different samadhis enumerated in Buddhism are different subtle senses.

Namaste

This is quite possible though in buddhist terminology, I concur.

Adhvagat
05 July 2012, 10:00 PM
It is not about mind games but attaching false objective certitudes to things which are essentially just indications causes lot of confusion - a syndrome from which Hindus particularly suffer from. We speculate about "ultimate" with such brazen confidence as if it was set on stone. Subjectivity basically means the truth is beyond objective characterization in our consciousness. It does not mean subjectivity is itself the nature of truth. Rather it is just the error of measuring device [subject] by which we are left to communicate the deeper aspects of consciousness. Buddhists for example are much more clear about this and the fallacy of deterministic certitude concerning what ultimate reality is.

I agree. Thank you.

Twilightdance
06 July 2012, 12:55 PM
I agree. Thank you.

Now others also expressing same views.

http://www.kamakotimandali.com/blog/index.php?p=1144&more=1&c=1&tb=1&pb=1


Dr. Valerie Hunt is easily one of the most charismatic speakers I have heard in a long time, Dzongsar Khyentse Rinpoche being another. Unfortunately I haven't been able to keep up with the ever growing work of this dynamic young lady lately. Her exposition of a fractal model of consciousness is quite a delight to study. When we speak of Kundalini, Chakras etc., we seem to have very set notions on how they are, how they should be, what they transform into through spiritual practice etc. Considering the etheric or energetic structure of humans to be extremely complex, such handling of Kundalini and chakras seems to rigidly embrace a rather linear model quite inappropriately. Dr. Hunt argues effectively - though not in the context of Chakras or Kundalini - that the variables in this system are more than numerous and a rigid approach based on textbook symbolism is quite limiting. I was reminded of her today when I heard two of my students argue endlessly on whether Svadhishthana chakra is seat of fire or Manipuraka is. I probably confused them further, and intentionally, by bringing in the Chakra theory of the Guhyasamaja. Those hopelessly stuck at symbolism would benefit from Dr Hunt's work.

However I am not sure of this Ms Hunt - cursory look at her reviews suggests she is more likely to be a new age quack doctor than an actual scientific researcher - having discovered mind is sometimes located out of the body in the human aura through 30 years of research on "human energy fields" [I am pretty sure there isin't any scientific claim like that, the semantics is more familiar with Maharshi Mahesh Yogi].

yajvan
06 July 2012, 08:48 PM
hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

namasté

Many have arrived at our HDF site in the last weeks and we welcome you all. Many have the desire of learning this culture and the desire to know its ways, pūja-s, etc.

One simple thing you can consider for infusing this cuture into your actions is starting here with your posts. A 'hello' or namasté , or a saluation of greeting. And at the end a thank you, or praṇām , or dhanyavāda. Why do so? It sets the tone for the conversation.

We're simple people and we greet each other with respect. These are our customs.

praṇām

krish43
07 July 2012, 01:19 AM
Dear Friends,

I am delighted to get admitted as a member in your esteemed forum and thank you very much for the same. I am a stronge Hindu, Tamil Brahmin and I Love Hinduism. I am a retired engineer and I stay with my spouse at Coimbatore. My 2 daughters are married and well settled in life. I spend most of my time in learning more about Hindu Philosophy, about the puranas and tantras I am a Maa Kali upachak and I take great pleasure in travelling to ancient temples all over India. I love The Himalays.

I once again thank the almighty and all you for providing me an oppurtunity to be one amongst you.

With Pranams.

Krishnan ts

Twilightdance
07 July 2012, 02:48 AM
These are our customs.

Good that some people maintain these things. But many others may not regard their own posts as 6:00 AM Akash Vani to earthly mortals and consequently may don't feel the necessity of wrapping the yoda-talk in animated humility.

Aakashvani: Voice from sky. Celestial voice. Divine voice.

Yoda-talk: http://www.yodaspeak.co.uk/

Suhita
29 April 2016, 07:01 AM
Namaste

Well, chakras (http://www.chakrayog.in/Articles/about_chakrat.aspx) are basically the energy points in subtle body which starts from base of spine and to crown of head. Moreover these chakras attract all the universe energy as well as govern overall well-being. However it is extremely important that chakras should be balanced to maintain proper balance of mental, physical, emotional and spiritual health of body.

Suhita
10 May 2016, 06:42 AM
To know the chakra systems of human one needs to understand that chakras are integral parts of body internally. In fact chakras are energy centre of physical body. Furthermore Chakra Yog (http://www.chakrayog.in/Articles/about_chakrat.aspx) is the process through which one can achieve self-consciousness by chakra balancing.