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Maya3
07 June 2012, 05:43 AM
This is in the NYtimes today: http://www.nytimes.com/2012/06/07/health/tests-of-parents-are-used-to-map-genes-of-a-fetus.html?_r=1&hp


When this becomes a more common practice it will raise a lot of ethical questions in my opinion.

Do we really want to live in a "perfect" world, where (only the wealthy I assume) get to pick the perfect baby and discard the other ones.

Are we really meant to gain all this knowledge so that we have the ability to make choices like this?

I'm curious what you think?

Maya

Shuddhasattva
07 June 2012, 06:46 AM
Namaste

I find that a direct commentator on that article has hit the nail for me:

"We have wasted precious time and resources on inane abortion battles and have allowed the genuine concerns of the eugenics movement a century ago to become casualties of an unfortunate association with racist pseudoscience. The future of the human gene pool is a real moral responsibility for all of us. As technology with increasing ease and precision allows people to design the genomes of their children rather than leave them to chance, it's likely that there will be fads and irresponsible choices with unforeseen consequences much more serious than the current sex imbalances in China and India. Can we develop and propagate a rational moral system capable of dealing with these issues fast enough to avert disaster? Will it be necessary to compromise individual rights for the survival of our species?"
-"Simplicity, San Diego"

Maya3
08 June 2012, 07:31 AM
That is a very good point.

Probably not. It is most likely a very big risk to get involved with this, designer babies who will be designed to have certain looks certain traits, certain talents. It is scary, scary business.

Maya

Shuddhasattva
08 June 2012, 08:30 AM
That is a very good point.

Probably not. It is most likely a very big risk to get involved with this, designer babies who will be designed to have certain looks certain traits, certain talents. It is scary, scary business.

Maya

Namaste

I agree that it is a big risk, but as one of the other commentators on the original article said, genotype itself doesn't determine phenotype - the environment/epigenome is very important in determining gene expression.

I suppose with a complete enough understanding of the environment, and active monitoring and influence of the epigenome, then genotyping could be used to select for particular, desired traits in one's offspring.

Here's perhaps a scarier (or, depending on how you look at it, more hopeful) thought: as this technology combines with other emerging technology - nanotechnology, biotechnology, information technology - will there come a point at which individuals, by virtue of 'personal area networks' of bionanobots ambient in their bodies and interfaced with the mind can control their own DNA, and its expression? And if this point is reached, what does that mean for the future of humanity? Clearly it might mean many things, but one of the most significant in my view is the end of speciation as we know it. If each individual is self-determining their genes, there will be no single successor species to humanity or indeed, any successor species as such. It could be an age of complete 'genetic freedom' so to speak. But we'd better be very sure we know what we're reading before we dare write.

Personally what I'm most worried about with technologically is the limited foresight of those who commission its development - mostly with relatively short term profits and/or weapons as the objective, rather than true humanistic concerns. For too long have the forces of science and technology lain in the wrong hands.

Namaste

Maya3
08 June 2012, 09:08 AM
Namaste

I agree that it is a big risk, but as one of the other commentators on the original article said, genotype itself doesn't determine phenotype - the environment/epigenome is very important in determining gene expression.


Do you mind explaining what you mean by phenotype and epigenome please. I'm not familiar with these terms, maybe because I'm not very well versed in science and also because English is not my first language.



I suppose with a complete enough understanding of the environment, and active monitoring and influence of the epigenome, then genotyping could be used to select for particular, desired traits in one's offspring.


So you are saying that lets say for example, that you live in Africa even though you are not from there, you could help your offspring get more melanin in the skin so that it can handle the sun better? Would you be able to do that even if you have very pale skinned people behind you in your genetic tree?



Here's perhaps a scarier (or, depending on how you look at it, more hopeful) thought: as this technology combines with other emerging technology - nanotechnology, biotechnology, information technology - will there come a point at which individuals, by virtue of 'personal area networks' of bionanobots ambient in their bodies and interfaced with the mind can control their own DNA, and its expression? And if this point is reached, what does that mean for the future of humanity? Clearly it might mean many things, but one of the most significant in my view is the end of speciation as we know it. If each individual is self-determining their genes, there will be no single successor species to humanity or indeed, any successor species as such. It could be an age of complete 'genetic freedom' so to speak. But we'd better be very sure we know what we're reading before we dare write.


What do you mean with the end of speciation? That we could actually affect our genetic offspring that we could be hybrids of humans and other mammals? Or non mammals even?

It'd be a very interesting planet for sure. :)

What is interesting to me from a Hindu perspective is that we are supposed to become Self Realized, understanding that we are the same as God.
If we can do all this, then we are really acting as God (I know, I know, God is doing a pretty good job of it him/herself, without us unenlightened people trying to mess with it). Anyway, maybe this IS Self Realization?
Or no?



Personally what I'm most worried about with technologically is the limited foresight of those who commission its development - mostly with relatively short term profits and/or weapons as the objective, rather than true humanistic concerns. For too long have the forces of science and technology lain in the wrong hands.

Namaste

That too, especially the part about weapons. It is extremely scary.

Namaste

Maya

Shuddhasattva
08 June 2012, 09:44 AM
Namaste


Do you mind explaining what you mean by phenotype and epigenome please. I'm not familiar with these terms, maybe because I'm not very well versed in science and also because English is not my first language.

Phenotype is the organism's specific physiological structure and appearance from the range of variation possible. Put simply, it's how you actually look.

Your genes give you the blueprint to build many different houses, with many different interior design schemes, depending on which genes are expressed, and how, in your developmental process, which of course begins in gestation.

While the genome itself is only extremely slightly influenced by environmental factors, the epigenome is like an antenna sensitive to even the slightest environmental differences.

So what is the epigenome? It's... an abstract 'layer' or 'record' of biochemical interactions which influence gene expression and other related things. Gene expression is exactly that - which genes are expressed, and how they're expressed. Thus two individuals with the same DNA can appear extremely different due to epigenomic/environmental factors.


So you are saying that lets say for example, that you live in Africa even though you are not from there, you could help your offspring get more melanin in the skin so that it can handle the sun better? Would you be able to do that even if you have very pale skinned people behind you in your genetic tree?


Yes, within the limits of the parental DNA.


What do you mean with the end of speciation? That we could actually affect our genetic offspring that we could be hybrids of humans and other mammals? Or non mammals even?


What I mean is if everyone has sufficient control of their genes to do what they want with them, the next generation is not going to be the same species as eachother, or their parents. Speciation itself will have come to an end - at least, as we know it. Each individual will be a species unto themselves if they so wish.



What is interesting to me from a Hindu perspective is that we are supposed to become Self Realized, understanding that we are the same as God.
If we can do all this, then we are really acting as God (I know, I know, God is doing a pretty good job of it him/herself, without us unenlightened people trying to mess with it). Anyway, maybe this IS Self Realization?
Or no?


This, I believe, is the goal of [temporal] life; to refine the planet's capacity to support god-consciousness with its lifeforms until reaching a perfected state, which may entail sublimation out of gross material forms altogether.

We might liken this to a collective yoga drawn out through the ages, but now accelerating faster and faster (and scarily) with the advance of technology.


Namaste

Maya3
08 June 2012, 08:01 PM
This, I believe, is the goal of [temporal] life; to refine the planet's capacity to support god-consciousness with its lifeforms until reaching a perfected state, which may entail sublimation out of gross material forms altogether.

We might liken this to a collective yoga drawn out through the ages, but now accelerating faster and faster (and scarily) with the advance of technology.

That is what is so amazing and interesting. It sure is moving a lot faster now then ever before and we understand more and more of who we are and our place in the universe.

Not sure if I think there is a goal like that though. The planet functioned pretty well, maybe even better, before we began being so advanced that we can change things. But again maybe this IS enlightenment?
And then maybe it IS the goal?

Maya