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mradam83
08 June 2012, 07:16 PM
Namaste.

If this is extremely basic and silly my apologies.

However, I have been wondering lately about Yoga. I understand that Yoga has been "borrowed" by the west as a secular and non-religious health practise to the extent that most of the religious elements are purposely removed.

I am wondering how a true Hindu learns Yoga? Is it something taught by a Guru or Sadhu say in a temple to devotees?

How does it differ from commercial and secular Yoga?

I will be honest, I don't quite understand how Yoga fits into Hinduism so I'm hoping a bit of insight can help me find out.

Thanks all, and again apologies if this comes across as basic.

Eastern Mind
08 June 2012, 08:00 PM
Vannakkam Mradam: The western sense of yoga usually only refers to hatha yoga, the third stage (I think) in the classic Yoga Sutras of Patanjali. It might be helpful to know what you mean by 'yoga' before beginning any discussion, as Hindus have a very different overall sense of the word then westerners do.

Aum Namasivaya

mradam83
08 June 2012, 08:23 PM
Vannakkam Mradam: The western sense of yoga usually only refers to hatha yoga, the third stage (I think) in the classic Yoga Sutras of Patanjali. It might be helpful to know what you mean by 'yoga' before beginning any discussion, as Hindus have a very different overall sense of the word then westerners do.

Aum Namasivaya

Namaste.

Oh yes, apologies. By yoga, I am referring to the subsection of this forum and indeed what that term means.

Sadly, being from the West, I only know Yoga as Hatha Yoga or the other types people have renamed it but I'm unfamiliar beyond that it's original and true meaning.

I hope that helps. If not, let me know and I'll hopefully make it easier to describe the next time around.

Eastern Mind
08 June 2012, 08:47 PM
Vannakkam: I didn't read this whole site ... there may be a bias or errors.. http://www.expressionsofspirit.com/yoga/eight-limbs.htm out of laziness and the fact I'm tired from a long drive, but essentially Patanjali is considered by many the classic starter/father of yoga. Note that Yama and Niyama come before Asana. Some consider the limbs progressive in nature. So from that POV, hatha yoga practitioners skip the first two limbs, which would be quite untraditional to put it mildly. The first Yama is ahimsa.

Aum Namasivaya

Arjuni
08 June 2012, 08:49 PM
Namasté,

As a very general and simplified explanation - as I understand it, if Hinduism is "the talk," think of yoga as the method of "walking the walk." It consists of all of the practices by which a spiritual seeker "yokes" him/herself to the Divine, working to serve That with purity and joy, and/or realise That within him/herself.

There are different parts of this which work together. There is karma yoga, for example, whereby one serves God by rendering service to others and to the world. There is bhakti yoga, the practice of loving devotion and the meditation upon/praising of God's glories, grace, and wonder. The hatha yoga physical postures that you know, are part of raja yoga, another aspect. Some seekers choose one sort of yoga upon which to focus - seeing all they do as Divine service, for example, or practicing the love of God in loving and embracing all things and beings.

The physical yoga practice that we know in the West is only a hollowed-out version of something much deeper. These postures, for a Hindu devotee, are meditative and disciplining. They serve to increase the body's suppleness and flexibility, granting a long life of health and strength - a longer life and energy through which to seek the Divine - as well as aligning the seeker with Divine energies. (Many of these postures are named after Gods, stories, etc.) Western yoga studios teach these poses for fitness only, eliminating the sacred elements intrinsic to them, and arguing that "yoga" belongs to the world and is not specifically "Hindu." (To give an idea of why this upsets many Hindus, imagine if I opened a restaurant called "Eucharist" and served different breads and wines there, and argued - amidst allegations of disrespect and sacrilege - that food is universally human, and that there's nothing specifically Christian about eating and drinking!)

One certainly may learn these practices from a Guru - a special teacher who embodies the Divine and guides the student closer to the Divine therefore. One may also learn at an ashram, a community of yoga practitioners/devotees, which is similar to a monastery in that it consists of folks who live and work together, to serve and realise God. There are also many books out there that can be excellent guides to Yoga (provided that they are written by Hindus, and not by fitness magazine editors or the like).

An excellent first step is to begin adherence to the behavioral and social disciplines called yamas and niyamas. If you search "yama" and "niyama" on this forum and/or Google, you will find several discussions of these practices.

Indraneela
===
Oṁ Indrāya Namaḥ.
Oṁ Namaḥ Śivāya.

mradam83
08 June 2012, 09:04 PM
Vannakkam: I didn't read this whole site ... there may be a bias or errors.. http://www.expressionsofspirit.com/yoga/eight-limbs.htm out of laziness and the fact I'm tired from a long drive, but essentially Patanjali is considered by many the classic starter/father of yoga. Note that Yama and Niyama come before Asana. Some consider the limbs progressive in nature. So from that POV, hatha yoga practitioners skip the first two limbs, which would be quite untraditional to put it mildly. The first Yama is ahimsa.

Aum Namasivaya

Namaste.

Excellent, thank you. I've got that now on my reading list so I can digest it. One thing that strikes Me is how simple yet how difficult the first Yama is especially for someone like me whos mind is never quite at peace. I feel if I could get to grips with that, I could actually achieve something.

EM, as always, thank you my friend. :-)

mradam83
08 June 2012, 09:12 PM
Namasté,

As a very general and simplified explanation - as I understand it, if Hinduism is "the talk," think of yoga as the method of "walking the walk." It consists of all of the practices by which a spiritual seeker "yokes" him/herself to the Divine, working to serve That with purity and joy, and/or realise That within him/herself.

There are different parts of this which work together. There is karma yoga, for example, whereby one serves God by rendering service to others and to the world. There is bhakti yoga, the practice of loving devotion and the meditation upon/praising of God's glories, grace, and wonder. The hatha yoga physical postures that you know, are part of raja yoga, another aspect. Some seekers choose one sort of yoga upon which to focus - seeing all they do as Divine service, for example, or practicing the love of God in loving and embracing all things and beings.

The physical yoga practice that we know in the West is only a hollowed-out version of something much deeper. These postures, for a Hindu devotee, are meditative and disciplining. They serve to increase the body's suppleness and flexibility, granting a long life of health and strength - a longer life and energy through which to seek the Divine - as well as aligning the seeker with Divine energies. (Many of these postures are named after Gods, stories, etc.) Western yoga studios teach these poses for fitness only, eliminating the sacred elements intrinsic to them, and arguing that "yoga" belongs to the world and is not specifically "Hindu." (To give an idea of why this upsets many Hindus, imagine if I opened a restaurant called "Eucharist" and served different breads and wines there, and argued - amidst allegations of disrespect and sacrilege - that food is universally human, and that there's nothing specifically Christian about eating and drinking!)

One certainly may learn these practices from a Guru - a special teacher who embodies the Divine and guides the student closer to the Divine therefore. One may also learn at an ashram, a community of yoga practitioners/devotees, which is similar to a monastery in that it consists of folks who live and work together, to serve and realise God. There are also many books out there that can be excellent guides to Yoga (provided that they are written by Hindus, and not by fitness magazine editors or the like).

An excellent first step is to begin adherence to the behavioral and social disciplines called yamas and niyamas. If you search "yama" and "niyama" on this forum and/or Google, you will find several discussions of these practices.

Indraneela
===
Oṁ Indrāya Namaḥ.
Oṁ Namaḥ Śivāya.

Namaste Indraneela.

Your post was extremely helpful, many thanks.

What has been your experience with Yoga and how has it entered your life?

Arjuni
08 June 2012, 10:33 PM
Namasté,

"Personal experiences in Yoga practice" might be a better topic for a new message-thread? I suggest that because I wouldn't want your original question to be muddled and/or neglected, because the discussion veered off onto a tangent. :)

Indraneela
===
Oṁ Indrāya Namaḥ.
Oṁ Namaḥ Śivāya.

mradam83
09 June 2012, 05:20 AM
Namasté,

"Personal experiences in Yoga practice" might be a better topic for a new message-thread? I suggest that because I wouldn't want your original question to be muddled and/or neglected, because the discussion veered off onto a tangent. :)

Indraneela
===
Oṁ Indrāya Namaḥ.
Oṁ Namaḥ Śivāya.

Namaste.

I liked the suggestion, so I have took that on board. ;-)

Vasa
31 July 2012, 05:05 PM
Namaste.

This is an interesting topic. I'm sure if you ask 50 different people you will get 50 different answers.

My personal experience with Yoga over the past year brought me to Hinduism, and, in a roundabout way, here to HDF. I started with the common western misconceptions, I.e. asana and pranayama is the entirety of Yoga, that it was primarily a health practice, etc. I did basic Hatha Yoga for a couple of months, and started noticing a huge improvement in my health, complexion, tonality of muscle, even my singing was effected.

I fIgured I should learn more about it, and this is when I began my journey to Kriya Yoga and Hinduism in general. Suddenly I realized that my deepest thoughts and understanding of the world was shared by others.

Anyway, as I posted in another thread, I was initiated into Kriya Yoga tradition of Paramahamsa Prajnanananda last weekend and have been faithfully practicing my Kriya several times per day. As someone who regularly meditated for 2 or 3 hours a day using various techniques (Bhagavan Maharshi self-enquiry, Ham-Sa technique, release technique, etc.) I have already seen a difference in my ability to quiet the mind as well as maintain the quiet after meditating. I have more energy, and have been sleeping less and more restfully than I did previously. I have not stopped my other meditations, rather Kriya has enhanced them and their effectiveness.

I will comment back here after a month, having not had much chance yet to incorporate the Yoga into my daily life but already seeing a difference after such a short time.

Pranam.

Eastern Mind
31 July 2012, 06:15 PM
Vannakkam: One thing here http://www.yogabusinessacademy.com/2011/02/15-facts-to-know-about-yoga-industry/ really caught my eye. Number 4 ... the number of people who practice yoga in the US increased by 25% per year. That's just amazing. I also thionk we have a tendency top lump them (yoga studios) all together, when as Vasa has said with 50 people, 50 answers, it has to be diverse. I also think its leaning more and more towards a more non-exercise meditative view. We passes one in a small town called Sadhana Yoga. A almost felt like dropping by.

Aum Namasivaya

ShivaFan
31 July 2012, 07:29 PM
Vannakkam: One thing here http://www.yogabusinessacademy.com/2011/02/15-facts-to-know-about-yoga-industry/ really caught my eye. Number 4 ... the number of people who practice yoga in the US increased by 25% per year. That's just amazing. I also thionk we have a tendency top lump them (yoga studios) all together, when as Vasa has said with 50 people, 50 answers, it has to be diverse. I also think its leaning more and more towards a more non-exercise meditative view. We passes one in a small town called Sadhana Yoga. A almost felt like dropping by.

Aum Namasivaya



You would be AMAZED at how many people at the office have the experiece of Vasa, and among people we meet, who have this interest in yoga, of which so many are springing up, as a first step to yet a deeper yearning, and then they later step towards Hinduism. One example was a supervisor at work. There was a new and very thriving Yoga Center, complete with Indian temple look to the building, that opened just a few streets away.

And now, in the same area I just had the most amazing discovery! Literally both my wife and myself were stunned. There before our eyes were two residential streets where new homes are being built.

One street was called RAM. The other was called SITA.

I am not kidding when I say, it really took my breath away, it was sort of hard to hold back the tears.

Yoga even if taught as a secular way, is bringing Westerners to Hinduism. Just like Vasa.

I hope they will be welcomed. They are coming.
Om Namah Sivaya

MahaHrada
01 August 2012, 06:54 AM
Namaste.

If this is extremely basic and silly my apologies.

However, I have been wondering lately about Yoga. I understand that Yoga has been "borrowed" by the west as a secular and non-religious health practise to the extent that most of the religious elements are purposely removed.

Yoga involving physical postures, besides a few seated positions, is called Hatha Yoga, and in its modern form it has not been "borrowed" by the west, it has been developed by a small group of Hindus that have been dedicated to explore the health and spiritual benefits of the postures and breath control and meditations of traditional Hatha Yoga.

There are only very few notable personalities that have developed modern Hatha Yoga, first of all Swami Kuvalayananda of Lonavla, then Sri Tirumalai Krishnamacharya and his disciple BKS Iyengar, Pattabhi Jois, and also Swami Shivananda his disciples Vishnudevananda, Satyananda Sarasvati from Bihar school of Yoga and Dhirendra Brahmachari and his disciples.

All of the different schools or modern "traditions" of Hatha Yoga existing in the west and east, ultimately all go back to one of these people.

At the time Hatha Yoga was beginning to be popularised, (in the 1920ies) with a focus on the mental and health benefits, this method was in bad repute, and still partly is frownend upon by some Hindus, because it was only practised by itinerant mendicants and ascetics, mostly of the Dasnami and Ramanadi orders of Sadhus, that were looked down upon as drug addicts and beggars by mainstream Hinduism, and Hatha Yoga is denigrated as merely a physical exercise without much spiritual benefits. But the Hatha Yoga did not originate from the Dasnami and Ramanadi orders but the origin of Hatha Yoga goes back to the Nath order of Yogis, and was only assimilated into the other orders of ascetics, and is nowadays rarely practised by the original teachers of this system.


I am wondering how a true Hindu learns Yoga? Is it something taught by a Guru or Sadhu say in a temple to devotees?

It is traditonally in our time taught mainly to Dasnami and Ramanadi sadhus and still a few Nath Yogis as part of their ascetic lifestyle, but not taught to the lay public. A lay hindu wanting to learn Hatha Yoga would also go to a teacher of Yoga who could ultimately be traced back to one of the founders of modern yoga, that i mentioned above, just like any westerner.


How does it differ from commercial and secular Yoga?

Modern Hatha Yoga has been improved by adding innovative postures, (sometimes even adapted from western gymnastic sources), lots of research has also gone into verifying medical and mental benefits of the postures and breath control, and meditations by scientifc means, also harmful practices have been eliminated, Krishnamacharya for instance added his knowledge of Ayurveda. His disciple Iyengar is perfecting the anatomical knowledge, while Kuvalyanandas effort was to put yoga on a sound medical and scientifc basis and integrate it into broader efforts to improve health and mental benefits for the whole society for instance promoting teaching it in schools, while Shivananda developed an universal system of yoga that included bhakti and Vedanta that was open for all castes and races in a non traditional way. The focus is of course on improving health and mental stability, development of insight, purity, relaxation and clarity of mind for everybody and not so much on other more extreme aspects of Hatha Yoga, that are more fitting for a mendicant (tapasvin) lifestyle of the sadhu.



I will be honest, I don't quite understand how Yoga fits into Hinduism so I'm hoping a bit of insight can help me find out.

Thanks all, and again apologies if this comes across as basic.

No not at all i hope i could help, if you have any questions feel free to ask. Also i like to refer you to a recent posting: http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showpost.php?p=89666&postcount=13

MahaHrada
01 August 2012, 09:40 AM
The physical yoga practice that we know in the West is only a hollowed-out version of something much deeper.

That is not doing justice to the dedication and sincerity of the founders of modern Hatha Yoga and their earnest and devoted disciples in east and west. Please inform yourself about the work and life of people like Swami Kuvalayanada, Krishnamacharya, Iyengar, Shivananda and others who laid the foundation of modern Hatha Yoga before you accuse others of hollowing out a tradition. They were interested to benefit lay persons and therefore it was necessary to adapt the practises of ascetics to the needs of a householder,


Western yoga studios teach these poses for fitness only, eliminating the sacred elements intrinsic to them, and arguing that "yoga" belongs to the world and is not specifically "Hindu."
This is not correct, most certified teachers of Yoga have been through a sound education, based on the principles that have been established by knowledgable people like Kuvalayanada, Shivananda, Iyengar or Krishnamacharya and others. Modern Hatha Yoga is not only about fitness. It is true though that modern Hatha Yoga is non sectarian and practice is not restricted by birth, caste, race or creed. But this is nothing new, modern or western, it has been the case since the very beginning of that tradition.

You and other Hindus that follow an orthodox vedantic achara may dislike the tradition of non sectarian Yoga, and the non casteist attitude of the ancient Siddhas and modern Hatha Yoga practicioners, who, even if they do not belong to that lineage, have nonetheless, to a great part, based their practice on the ancient shastras of Natha Yoga .

We do respect this opinion, but ask you to also respect that we dislike to submit to your rules and all off a sudden start discriminating between people based on gender, color, creed or caste and if we stick to our tradition, face vile verbal attacks by Hindus who look at these things from another viewpoint. Most of those that attack modern hatha yoga have never in their whole life practised a single Asana, they probably wouldn´t be able to do so, but they are fairly well able to pontificate about the shallowness. So what is your experience with Hatha Yoga? Oh well, i forgot we have to open a new thread for that:)

Hatha Yoga, originating from the Nath parampara was always non sectarian, it is not at all casteist like the vedic tradition. It did not know any creed, race, caste or gender restrictions, the practice never was restricted to a certain religion, not at the time of the founders and not today. Already at the time when Hatha yoga was formulated, Nath Yogis, besides Hindus also freely taught Buddhists , Muslims, Taoists and Confuzians. The Siddhas like Gorakshanatha, Matsyendranath, Virupa etc. are revered still today as saints by Buddhists, Hindus, Taoists and Muslims. Natha Siddhas were also worshipped as taoist immortal masters of Yoga in China, and as Pirs in muslim regions , or buddhist tantric masters in the Himalayas. The non sectarian nature of Hatha Yoga is nothing new, it is not western, instead it is based on the age old principles of non sectarianism of the Siddha Yoga parampara of the Nath Order.

Hatha Yoga, like other methods of yoga, can be practiced by all, regardless of sex, caste, class, or creed. Many texts explicitly state that it is practice
alone that leads to success. Sectarian affiliation and philosophical inclination are of no importance. The texts of Hatḥa Yoga, with some exceptions,
do not include teachings on metaphysics or sect specific practices. To speak of “yoga philosophy” is to miss the point: yoga is a practical discipline
aimed at attaining liberation. If duly practiced, it will work, irrespective of the practitioner’s beliefs.
The lack of sectarianism in texts on yoga has made them readily adoptable by traditions other than those of their authors. Thus texts composed in a
Nāth milieu could be used to compile the later Yoga Upanisạds, and others were translated intoPersian to satisfy Mughal interest in yoga.

Hatha Yoga James Mallison.

Believer
01 August 2012, 03:31 PM
Namaste Maha,

This is not correct, .......
You accuse me of forgetting to take my daily Prozac, what happened to YOU today?
The Admin forgot to tell us that he had appointed you as the final arbiter of yoga issues in this forum. Please don't try to lord over poor, meek Hindus with your high handedness.

Pranam.

PS, Western Hath Yoga = One legged downward facing dog, dog dancer pose, downward facing dog move and more.;)

MahaHrada
01 August 2012, 03:35 PM
Namaste Maha,

You accuse me of forgetting to take my daily Prozac, what happened to YOU today?
The Admin forgot to tell us that he had appointed you as the final arbiter of yoga issues in this forum. Please don't try to lord over poor, meek Hindus with your high handedness.

Pranam.

Not only in this forum but up to and above Brahma Loka. I am the arbiter.

Believer
01 August 2012, 03:40 PM
Namaste,

Nah, just leave the forum members alone. Go and try to kick some butt in Brahmaloka and above, so you would know what you are made of.

Pranam.

Eastern Mind
01 August 2012, 03:58 PM
Vannakkan:

What's a loka?

Aum Namasivaya

MahaHrada
01 August 2012, 04:34 PM
Vannakkan:

What's a loka?

Aum Namasivaya

A world, a level of existence same linguistic root as in english location or latin "Locus"

MahaHrada
01 August 2012, 05:51 PM
PS, Western Hath Yoga = One legged downward facing dog, dog dancer pose, downward facing dog move and more.;)

There is no explicit "western" modern Hatha Yoga, what is taught in the west has been developed and inspired by either Swami Kuvalayananda of Lonavla, Sri Tirumalai Krishnamacharya and his disciple BKS Iyengar and Pattabhi Jois, Swami Shivananda and Dhirendra Brahmachari and their respective disciples from the east or west.

Why is that so? Why are the teachers of Hatha Yoga so few? Because the practice of Hatha Yoga has almost died out in India at that time!

There exists no other modern Hatha Yoga on this planet that does not go back to one or the other of these Gurus or their disciples. Traditional Hatha Yoga is restricted to Sadhu Orders, except for a handful western Nath Sannyasins that began to teach lay people mainly in eastern europe.

If you don´t like western Hatha Yoga you would not like Indian Hatha Yoga because it is the same procedure, sometimes taught by the same and sometimes by other disciples of the same Gurus, just happening in a different location.

Believer
01 August 2012, 06:43 PM
Namaste Maha,

As much as we would like to have a dialog with you, it is possible only through a two way street. We hear you, that it was inspired by some Indian Gurus. What Indra and I have told you is that essentially the yoga taught in the West is separated from the original gurus by at least 50 degrees and hence is completely devoid of any spirituality. When the names of the asanas are associated with positions of a dog 'doing his business', how could there be any spirituality involved in there. If the real Sanskrit names are used, and there is chanting of Sanskrit shalokas before and after the the Hath yoga class, then all the Xitians leave and don't show up for the following classes. Why is it so difficult for you to understand that? We are trying very hard to tell you where we are coming from. The yoga inspired by the gurus from India has been watered down by degrees of separation of the current yoga teachers in the yoga studios who look to a dog to give the names of poses of the asanas. What more could we say? If the intent is to totally ignore our side of the story and to ridicule us because you are holding God's hand, then there is no solution. You win.

Pranam.

Eastern Mind
01 August 2012, 07:26 PM
A world, a level of existence same linguistic root as in english location or latin "Locus"

Vannakkam: Please accept my apologies. I have this darned habit of 'playing dumb' as humour, and sometimes it backfires. Sometimes when people start telling me everything there is to know about everything, I roll my eyes and play dumb. Its a nasty habit I'm working on, and I hope I don't do it again. Runs in my family, Dad had it, sons have it. Its only cute for awhile, and doesn't work on forums.

Yes I know what lokas are. Sorry to have put you through the explanation.

Aum Namasivaya

Sahasranama
01 August 2012, 11:17 PM
Namaste Maha,
When the names of the asanas are associated with positions of a dog 'doing his business', how could there be any spirituality involved in there.
Pranam.
Downward facing dog comes from the Sanskrit name adho (downward) mukha (facing) shvAnAsana (dogpose).

MahaHrada
02 August 2012, 04:35 AM
Namaste Maha,
We hear you, that it was inspired by some Indian Gurus. What Indra and I have told you is that essentially the yoga taught in the West is separated from the original gurus by at least 50 degrees

Beliver!

The teacher training and yoga classes are 100% identical in India and the West.

Whether you are trainend to become a Yoga Teacher let´s say near Rishikesh (Rudraprayag) in the Shivananda Ashram or in his Ashram in Geneva, Switzerland, you will be going through the exact same motions: Wake up at 5:00 am in the morning, a few hours bhajans, Pranayama, Meditation, Asanas before lunch, vegeterian of course, you learn Vedanta, study Bhagavadgita, Vivekachudamani and Yoga theory, medical as well as metaphysical background. In the afternoon again Asana classes, in the evening, lectures bhajan and meditation , thats about it in a nutshell.

The other modern Yoga schools don´t reallly differ too much from that schedule, there is a little more bhakti Yoga and Bhajan singing in Shivananda classes, you have to like that, if you don´t want to spent hours with Satsang, singing bhajans every day, Shivanandas or Vishnudevanandas teacher training is not for you. If you are inclined towards bhakti you will love it.

The same goes for all the other teachers, these are global organisations, the curriculum is the same all over the world, the standard Yoga classes taught are also identical. If they offer living in an Ashram or retreats, life in the retreats and ashrams is also 100% identical in India and the West.

The vast majority of Yoga Teachers in the West and in India are certified by one or the other Organisation that either goes back to these Gurus i mentioned, or their disciples.

I don´t know where you got the idea that the Teacher Training or Yoga classes in the West are different from those in India. Who told you this? Or is this opinion just a "gut feeling" and due to your dislike for dogs?

MahaHrada
02 August 2012, 04:55 AM
Vannakkam: Please accept my apologies. I have this darned habit of 'playing dumb' as humour, and sometimes it backfires. Sometimes when people start telling me everything there is to know about everything, I roll my eyes and play dumb. Its a nasty habit I'm working on, and I hope I don't do it again. Runs in my family, Dad had it, sons have it. Its only cute for awhile, and doesn't work on forums.

Yes I know what lokas are. Sorry to have put you through the explanation.

Aum Namasivaya

No Problem, but i don´t really understand why this specific posting made you to show this allergic reaction. Too much non fictional stuff maybe? Next time i promise i add flying monkeys, all knowing Gurus, glowing chakras, lots of temples and 10 headed monsters abducting young woman :)

Vasa
02 August 2012, 07:12 AM
Namaste Maha.

As always, I learned something new from your insights and the subsequent discussion. Thank you.

Pranam.

Believer
02 August 2012, 11:00 AM
Namaste,

I don´t know where you got the idea that the Teacher Training or Yoga classes in the West are different from those in India. Who told you this? Or is this opinion just a "gut feeling" and due to your dislike for dogs?
I did not get the idea by talking to a whole bunch of people, my fiery friend. I found this out by attending yoga classes conducted by different American teachers. They dare not introduce even a whiff of Hinduism into the practice, whereas the ones I attended at my temple, made liberal use of reciting some prayers/verses where applicable. It was like entering the sterile environment of a hospital Vs. a pleasant, fragrant park. Actually taking yoga classes from different teachers in the West - native Hindus and yoga studio Westerners - might be educational for you.

Pranam.

MahaHrada
02 August 2012, 11:31 AM
Namaste,

I did not get the idea by talking to a whole bunch of people, my fiery friend. I found this out by attending yoga classes conducted by different American teachers. They dare not introduce even a whiff of Hinduism into the practice, whereas the ones I attended at my temple, made liberal use of reciting some prayers/verses where applicable. It was like entering the sterile environment of a hospital Vs. a pleasant, fragrant park. Actually taking yoga classes from different teachers in the West - native Hindus and yoga studio Westerners - might be educational for you.

Pranam.

That your Experience was not as you wished for is indeed unfortunate for you, it is of course in India as well as in the West good to learn more about the education and attitude of the individual teachers, before you visit a class. But your own unfortunate personal experience is not characteristic of modern Yoga, whether western or eastern. If we want to compare individual experiences, i had good as well as bad experiences with both Indian and western Teachers.

For my own preferences there is often too much indiscriminate communal reciting of Mantras and bhajan singing as a part of modern western Yoga classes and also in teacher training and i do not like it.For instance when Gayatri or Pranava is sung with a group of people that have received no mantra diksha, and are not involved in sadhana or upasana i do not like to attend such a meeting. It is just my personal preference but for me that would be a reason to not attend a class.

Today it has almost become normal to use Mantras straight from the book and where i live-in the west- no one is afraid of, or is running away when Mantras and shlokas are recited, except me. I also would not say that in Indian classes you hear more shlokas and mantras, quite the contrary, i attended a yoga class with an excellent indian Yoga teacher who fortunately did not use any mantras or shlokas on me.

Sahasranama
03 August 2012, 04:11 AM
Speaking from my own experience, Indian teachers of yoga have instructed me for free and told me how to practice at home every morning, while western instructors have always encouraged me to attend class every week. Their goal is to always keep you coming back for more, even though what they are teaching is fairly simplistic. I am not denying that there are also a lot of Indian instructors inspired by the western business model who teach yoga solely out of commercial interest. In contrast, the revival of hatha yoga by people like Kuvalayananda, Shivananda and Krishnamacharya was not centered around creating business opportunities for certified instructors. They were trying to revive Hinduism and the national spirit in a time when colonialism had done much damage to the self image of Hindus.

The practices of hatha yoga, like asana and pranayama that are now so popular in modern postural yoga did not originate in a vacuum in the natha sampradaya, but were practised in some form or another in the dharmic traditions of India and have even reached China through the medium of Buddhism. The foundational philosophy of yoga comes from the larger context of Hinduism. The modern slogan of all practice and no theory serves only to accommodate more costumers. Personally, I would rather practice yoga at home than to pay a small fortune for weekly yoga classes, $600 workshops and $2000 yoga retreats in India or somewhere else. Yes, knowledge of anatomy is important, but this isn't rocket science. It can be learned easily and doesn't justify financing the pension of some certified instructor.

Regarding mantra chanting in yoga classes. I have had to correct a few yoga instructors who were giving imaginary new age meanings of fairly simple Sanskrit mantras.

MahaHrada
03 August 2012, 05:56 AM
Speaking from my own experience, Indian teachers of hatha yoga have instructed me for free and told me how to practice at home every morning, while western instructors have always encouraged me to attend class every week. Their goal is to always keep you coming back for more, even though what they are teaching is fairly simplistic. I am not denying that there are also a lot of Indian instructors inspired by the western business model who teach yoga solely out of commercial interest. In contrast, the revival of hatha yoga by people like Kuvalayananda, Shivananda and Krishnamacharya was not centered around creating business opportunities for certified instructors. They were trying to revive Hinduism and the national spirit in a time when colonialism had done much damage to the self image of Hindus.

The practices of hatha yoga, like asana and pranayama that are now so popular in modern postural yoga did not originate in a vacuum in the natha sampradaya, but were practised in some form or another in the dharmic traditions of India and have even reached China through the medium of Buddhism. The foundational philosophy of yoga comes from the larger context of Hinduism. The modern slogan of all practice and no theory serves only to accommodate more costumers. Personally, I would rather practice yoga at home than to pay a small fortune for weekly yoga classes, $600 workshops and $2000 yoga retreats in India or somewhere else. Yes, knowledge of anatomy is important, but this isn't rocket science. It can be learned easily and doesn't justify financing the pension of some certified instructor.

Regarding mantra chanting in yoga classes. I have had to correct a few yoga instructors who were giving imaginary new age meanings of fairly simple Sanskrit mantras.

You will find lots of Teachers, and organisations also in the west who are charging minimum fees, allow people to attend classes for free or with less charges when they have monetary issues against "karma yoga" done on the premises etc. and are not centered around creating business opportunities for certified instructors, but have introduced certification to guarantee that a minimum standard of education can be maintained, and i personally have never met a single teacher in the west who is teaching yoga solely out of commercial interest, if you want to earn money there are better opportunities than teaching yoga, infact all instructors i know are barely able to maintain themselves by teaching yoga. It was in in India that i have first met people with no personal interest or knowledge at all of the philosophy and background of yoga and ayurveda but nonetheless teaching classes and offering massages in resorts and hotels purely as an opportunity to earn money.

I am not trying to give the impression that there is nothing wrong with modern Yoga, in my opinion a lot is wrong with modern Yoga but in the West as well as in India.

If you say Hatha Yoga has originated outside of the Nath Sampradaya, it is not based on facts, it is a a wrong statement. That it is often repeated does not make it true. Name me one shastra not associated with that Parampara, that is mentioning several poses, Mudras, Bandhas, Shatkarmas, Kundalini and Satchakravedha related Yoga and Nadanusandhana, involving sets of postures and a physical regimen that go beyond the 4-5 seated postures used for meditation we commonly know as part of the Yoga taught in Patanjali Yoga Sutras or Upanishads, Agamas and Tantras.

Though in modern times Patanjali Yoga sutras are mixed up with Hatha Yoga that is a grave error, a lot of the misunderstandings about Hatha Yoga today are due to mixing up Patanjalis teachings indiscriminately with Hatha Yoga, or even associating Patanjali with being one of the founders or the original founder of Hatha Yoga. Patanjali is teaching Yoga, but not teaching Hatha Yoga. Simple as that.

Asanas Mudras, Bandhas Shatkarmas as a regimen of physical exercises that make up Hatha Yoga cannot be found in other shastras, that do not originate from the Nath Sampradaya. Practically all of Hatha Yoga Asanas are based on the Hatha Yoga Pradipika, Gheranda Samhita etc. these are the seminal texts used by modern practicioners.

This is the Hatha Yoga Parampara according to Svatmarama:

AdinAthadi matsyendra shAbara AnandabhairavAH |
chauraNgI mIna gorakSha virUpAkSha bileshayAH ||
manthAnabhairavo yogi siddhabuddhishcha kanthaDiH |
kauraNTakaH surAnandaH siddhapAdashcha charpaTiH ||
kAnerI pUravapAdashcha nityAnAtho niranjanaH |
kapAlI bindunAthashcha kAkachaNDIshwarAdayaH ||
allamaprabhudevashcha ghorAcholI cha TiNTiNiH |
vAsukI r nAgabhodashcha khaNDaH kApalikastathA ||
ityAdayomahAsiddhA haThayogaprabhAvataH |
khandayitvAkAladandam brahmAnde tu caranti te ||
1.9 hathapradIpikA
svAtmArAma

Of course the Philsosophy of Nath siddhas is based on earlier Traditions, notably there is Kaula Influence influence of early tapasvins of the shramana traditions, and Pashupata and Kapalika ascetic shaiva orders. That some Asanas of the standing varietey can be traced back to tapas exercises of early Munis does not allow us to equal Tapasvins with Hatha Yogis.

Mudras and Bandhas an important part of Hatha Yoga were also taught by Dattatreya, who, especially in the Mahahrastrian Nath Tradition was also one of the Nathas but is as well associated with the Muni-Tradition going back to Kapila and Yajnavalkya, so we know only of very few shastras that mention Mudras and Bandhas, not even Asanas, and therefore have some association with Hatha Yoga, that are as well early, and originate from a different tradition, but even those sources are indirectly connected with the Natha Siddhas via the Nath Guru Dattatreya, like the Sandilya Upanishad and the Dattatreyayogashastra.

As i said later Hatha Yoga was taken up by Ramanadi and Dasnami sadhus and also there we find some related shastras but originating from a later time than the Hathayogapradipika and the Natha Shastras.

That theoretical knowledge and practical experience are considered almost oppossites to each other and also their non sectarianism, has been one of the pillars of the Nath Siddha Sampradaya and can hardly be called modern, most Nathas in the past and also today are opposed to conventional patterns of religion.

I can look up some shastra pramana for you if you have doubts about that. Also for all the other statements. i can give you more detailed explanations if you like, i can prove what i write.

Sahasranama
03 August 2012, 08:08 AM
It was in in India that i have first met people with no personal interest or knowledge at all of the philosophy and background of yoga and ayurveda but nonetheless teaching classes and offering massages in resorts and hotels purely as an opportunity to earn money.
I don't mean to create a false dichotomy between western and Indian yoga. I have seen all the advertisements of Indian yogis with their expensive resorts and nonsense certifications. What I mean is that there is a shift of mentality from how yoga was taught in the days of Shivananda. I have read an old book about the journey of a Dutch yogini who went to India and was able to learn yoga for free at ashrams including accommodation and food. If you go now you will have to lay down thousands for retreats and workshops. The people I learned yoga from when I was in my teens were not full time yoga instructors, but priests who studied at a gurukula. The mentality they had about teaching yoga was very different. They even gave me a free copies of yoga instruction books in Hindi and they taught how to incorporate asana and pranayama practice into a daily ayurvedic routine. I think that is closer to the way Krishnamacharya, Kuvalayananda and Shivananda intented yoga to be practised.


If you say Hatha Yoga has originated outside of the Nath Sampradaya, it is not based on facts, it is a a wrong statement.I am not saying that Hatha yoga originated outside the Nath Sampradaya, only that it wasn't created in a vacuum within the Nath sampradaya. I am no expert on Nath sampradaya, but as you are saying, it was influenced by other Indian traditions. The practice of asana in hatha yoga also could not have developed in complete isolation of the postural practices of the tapasvins and yogins who practiced seated, standing, balancing, upside down and hanging poses.

It would also be interesting to see how much influence the dhanur veda (martial arts) and natya shastra (dance) have exerted on hatha yoga. Then there is also the question that postures similar to hatha yoga asanas were practised in China and Tibet in Buddhist monasteries even before scriptures like the Hatha yoga pradipika were written. According to the Chinese they were brought to China from India through Buddhist missionaries like Bodhidharma. It is interesting to note that the yoga of Krishnamacharya, who studied in the himalayas, is very similar to the yoga practised in Chinese forms of yoga with all its flowing vinyasa. Some form of postural yoga must have been practiced in India before it could have been transmitted to China.

The shatkarmas of hatha yoga are very similar to the ayurvedic practices of vamana, virecana, basti and nasyam. Even though they are perfomed slightly differently, it's likely they influenced the hatha yoga purification practices. The practice of mudras is very common in tantra, it is even used in Sandhyavandana before and after gayatri japa by some people and pranayama is also practiced commonly in various forms. The practice of bandhas is perhaps something that is completely original to the Natha yogis, I am not sure.

There is also a mention of hatha yoga in the aparokshanubhuti, a work attributed to Shankaracharya:
143. By the connection of these fifteen limbs, Raja Yoga is explained. Those who are not yet spiritually ripe for this knowledge should take up Hatha Yoga.



That theoretical knowledge and practical experience are considered almost oppossites to each other and also their non sectarianism, has been one of the pillars of the Nath Siddha Sampradaya and can hardly be called modern, most Nathas in the past and also today are opposed to conventional patterns of religion.I don't know how the Natha's thought about philosophical knowledge as opposed to practical knowledge, but they must have had some justification to practice yoga, some underlying reason to do this instead of using their time on something else, even if they say they didn't. That must have been part of their philosophy which must have been motivated by some sort of Hindu ideal about liberation.

MahaHrada
03 August 2012, 11:32 AM
I don't mean to create a false dichotomy between western and Indian yoga. I have seen all the advertisements of Indian yogis with their expensive resorts and nonsense certifications. What I mean is that there is a shift of mentality from how yoga was taught in the days of Shivananda. I have read an old book about the journey of a Dutch yogini who went to India and was able to learn yoga for free at ashrams including accommodation and food. If you go now you will have to lay down thousands for retreats and workshops.

I think commercialisation depends on where you look, where i live, in a country in Europe,there is one ashram led by westerners, going back to Shivananda, it is done in the same spirit, when people are willing to live and work in the ashram they get food and accommodation and yoga education for free, and on top of that permanent residents even get pocket money from the ashram, of course non resident students have to pay, but a small and reasonable amount, compared to what they get and even if sincerely interested in studying yoga as a non residents who cannot afford to pay the rates, the residents find ways to nonetheless accomodate and teach them for reduced rates or for free if they ask. I am not as much informend on how ashrams in other countries are run.
I think nowadays certifications are very important, especially in the west since they help to maintain or establish a minimum standard of knowledge and experience. The requirements are not very high and it is barely the minimum you must know to not harm people with your classes. That is done as a help to prevent Yoga from getting a bad reputation because of fraudulent uneducated practicioners. The certifications have helped to establish a standard that allows people to attend yoga classses with certified teachers while the costs are paid by health insurances. Without certifications that would have not been possible. Certainly there is also a commercialisation of Yoga due to its rising popularity, but there are many westerners who selflessly dedicate their lives to promote Yoga in the form it was taught by people like Kuvalayanada or Shivananda, in a non commercial way, and the vast majority of Yoga teachers do it because it is for them part of an alternative lifestyle or an alternative non invasive form of health care not because it is an easy way to generate money, because it isn´t.


I am not saying that Hatha yoga originated outside the Nath Sampradaya, only that it wasn't created in a vacuum within the Nath sampradaya. I am no expert on Nath sampradaya, but as you are saying, it was influenced by other Indian traditions. The practice of asana in hatha yoga also could not have developed in complete isolation of the postural practices of the tapasvins and yogins who practiced seated, standing, balancing, upside down and hanging poses.

I have a problem when talking about the Nath tradition since naturally i will be territorial and have avoided writing in HDF about it since it has to preserved from guru to shisya only not by publicising.
Yes, we can trace some of the Hatha Yoga postures to tapasvins, but though you are right that it has not developed in a vacuum, it is a very unique teaching of its own, and one cannot criticise modern Hatha Yoga of lacking so called "religious or spiritual" elements that were important in other forms of Yoga.

I admit that modern Yoga has made itself vulnerable to that criticism since it wrongly appropriated Patanjalis Yoga sutras into its canon, of course now one can say that Hatha Yoga is focussing too much on the physical aspects, compared to what is taught in the Yoga sutras.

The second drawdown regarding modern Yoga is that they never had access to the Nath teaching and no knowledge of their internal practices but instead integrated the exercises of the Nath Siddhas into a framework of Vedanta and Vaishnava bhakti. This was only partly succesful, and though i defend the dedication and sincerity of modern yoga, looking at it from the viewpoint of a nath siddha, i do not like the result of mixing vedanta, patanjali yoga and Hatha yoga since it is not doing justice to any of the systems.

Regarding Kundalini, the pancha vyomas and panchamahabhutas, six adhvans, 16 adharas, three lakshyas and the Yogangas like dharana dhyana and samadhi and how this knowledge is integrated into a graded path culminating in shatchakrabheda and nadanusandhana, these central higher practices of hatha yoga are non existing in modern Yoga. Dharana, Dhyana, Samadhi is interpreted according to Patanjali but not practised according to the way it was intended by Hatha Yoga which is a very different procedure. The reason for this is that the tantric or Kaula background, that is central in Nath teachings, is entirely missing from modern Yoga. Satyananda Sarasvati (of Bihar school of Yoga) has tried to integrate tantric teachings into the vedanta based yoga of Shivananda, but was in my opinion only marginally successful.

In Nath Tradition there is also the upasana of Yogesvari, the shaktipat of the Guru Parampara and the knowledge of the aims of the Kaya sadhana, these are misising from modern yoga. In authentic Nath yoga, Hatha yoga is only a part that must eventually lead to a purified immortal Body that is made similar or of one taste as the siddhas say (samarasya) to the Mahasakarapinda, the universal cosmic body of Adinath Shiva, which is a union of the principles of Shiva and shakti or Kamakala, one with the Guru existing beyond the physical body. When one is activating the 16 and 17 parts of the moon, the chandrakalas, which contain the fluid of Immortality, the goal of the Nath yoga is achieved, These are practices of internal alchemy, and these are the central goals of Hatha Yoga as well as those of the Kaula Dharma. There is also a focus on the void nature of the ultimate state that is closer to shramana and chinese concepts of the ultimate than vedic, These are very obscure teachings that are outside the pale of mainstream Hinduism and closer to taoist teachings than to Vedanta.


It would also be interesting to see how much influence the dhanur veda (martial arts) and natya shastra (dance) have exerted on hatha yoga.

According to my studies there arent any similarities, it is more that we should look to china and Qigong there is a mutual influence.


Then there is also the question that postures similar to hatha yoga asanas were practised in China and Tibet in Buddhist monasteries even before scriptures like the Hatha yoga pradipika were written. According to the Chinese they were brought to China from India through Buddhist missionaries like Bodhidharma.

The Nath siddhas taught buddhism as well as taoism as well as islam. Virupa nath for instance appears in the Hatha pradipika list of Gurus and is also prominent in the chakrasamavara/Vajrayogini (Chinnamasta) based tantric lineage of Vajrayana buddhism, the siddhas are known with the same or similar names in all these religious traditions, that is due to the unique non sectarian nature of this tradition. Siddha Boganatha is known to have taught alchemy in China for instance, while Matsyendranath is worshipped as the Incarnation of Buddha Lokeswara by the nepali buddhists but also as an enlightened pir in the chistiya silsila of Sufism.


The practice of mudras is very common in tantra, it is even used in Sandhyavandana before and after gayatri japa by some people and pranayama is also practiced commonly in various forms. The practice of bandhas is perhaps something that is completely original to the Natha yogis, I am not sure.

Mudras in Hatha Yoga are not hand postures but body postures, these are shared by and may go back to the Kaula Tradition like other aspects of Hatha yoga as kAlavancana, (cheating, or evading time), utkranti , (yogic death) , or parakayapravesha.(entering other bodies)
These Mudras of Hatha Yoga, the body postures are related to certain high developed states of the Mind, or trances, the siddhas are grouped into different categories according to which Mudra they primarly belong to, or assume, these relate to certain samadhis, the body freezes into these postures when the samadhis occur and vice versa.


There is also a mention of hatha yoga in the aparokshanubhuti, a work attributed to Shankaracharya:
143. By the connection of these fifteen limbs, Raja Yoga is explained. Those who are not yet spiritually ripe for this knowledge should take up Hatha Yoga.

This does not sound plausible since the first mentioning of the term hatha yoga in the yogashastras themselves appears around the 15th century not earlier. But i will try to check out the validity of that quote.


I don't know how the Natha's thought about philosophical knowledge as opposed to practical knowledge, but they must have had some justification to practice yoga, some underlying reason to do this instead of using their time on something else, even if they say they didn't. That must have been part of their philosophy which must have been motivated by some sort of Hindu ideal about liberation.


Underlying this idea is the primal importance that the Guru has in these traditions, and that without the grace of the Guru Parampara true understanding will not occur no matter how much you practice and study, important aspects will be sealed because your body is not ripened (pakva) to receive knowledge, and the other reaosn is the focus on the stage of para and pashyanti vac which is a state of knowledge prior to verbalisation.
Para and Pashyanti vac are also aspects of Nada (sound vibration) and Kundalini and therefore important in authentic Hatha Yoga. They are also the adesh or ajna the command (of the Guru) that the Nath siddha follows. If he does that properly he will be automatically carried into a pre-language state. Thats why the Siddha greets the siddha with the word "Adesh" When Kundalini rests in coiled form she is language prior to speech or manifestation as name and form.

MahaHrada
03 August 2012, 09:13 PM
This does not sound plausible since the first mentioning of the term hatha yoga in the yogashastras themselves appears around the 15th century not earlier. But i will try to check out the validity of that quote.


Aparokshanubhuti:

"In its subordinate role Hathayoga was most often overshadowed by Rajayoga. A good example of this is the medieval Vedantic text called the Aparokshanubhuti, which has been attributed to Adi sankaracharya. It is unlikely that this text dates back to the eighth century, but it would predate the fourteenth century if the “Vidyaranya” who wrote a commentary on it called the Dipika is the same Vidyaranya who wrote the Jivanmuktiviveka"

"It is worth digressing here to point out that in the history of medieval Yoga the term rajayoga rose to prominence at approximately the same time as hathayoga (i.e., twelfth to fitfteenth century), in texts such as the Aparokshanohuti, the Amanaskayoga, the Dattatreyayogasastra, the Amaraughaprabodha, the Sarngadharapaddhati, the Yogabija,and the Hathapradipika."

Jason Birch Hatha Yoga


Other scholars like Alston also deny the authorship of Adi Shankaracharya. Like i suspected it is very unlikely that this work predates other well known Hatha Yoga shastras.

Sahasranama
04 August 2012, 01:19 AM
I know that the authorship of Shankaracharya of the aparokshanubhuti is uncertain, but since the advaita scholar Vidyaranya who was born in 1268CE wrote a commentary on the work, the text must have existed before that time.

MahaHrada
04 August 2012, 03:38 AM
I know that the authorship of Shankaracharya of the aparokshanubhuti is uncertain, but since the advaita scholar Vidyaranya who was born in 1268CE wrote a commentary on the work, the text must have existed before that time.

Yes that date fits well within the range of the appx.date of formative period of Hatha Yoga 12th century is also suggested as the appx. date of the life of Gorakshanatha, from Gorakshanatha to Svatmarama i think are about 30 Gurus , if we take 30 years time diifference for each Guru we arrive in the 13th century for Hathapradipika which is reasonable. A lot of concepts of Hatha Yoga can also be found in the buddhist Kalachakratantra which goes back to the 10th. - 12th. century.

Matsyendranath and the beginning of the Kaula Tradition and also the beginning of buddhist Vajrayana Tantra is dated earliest around the 6th century. He is also credited with the founding of the Vajrayana tradition under the name of Luipa. All these dates are within schedule of what scholars assume as the period, Kaula and buddhist tantra was formulated in writings and that later these traditions gave rise to Hatha Yoga and the Natha Sampradaya. Before that we have no written records and we can only speculate. There also is a few hundred years time gap between the founder of the Kaula Tradition, Matsyendranath and his disciple Gorakshanath, which is not accounted for.