Is HDF unnecessarily anti-non-Hindus?

[wundermonk]

Hello everyone:

This question comes up ever so often.

So, I decided to do a quick search on other forums - a Sunni forum and a Shia forum to see how those on the other side react to Hindu thought.

Note that, in general, from what I was able to see, these forums do not have active Hindu posters, per se. So, the topic of Hinduism comes up indirectly via something else, in one case via a story on Sufi celebration of Urs and in the other case via Bollywood (although I fail to see the connection between Bollywood and Hinduism, but that discussion is for another thread).

First search result (http://www.sunniforum.com/forum/showthread.php?88345-What-is-this-!!)

Some beautiful lines by posters there:


Those are hindus but I assume these people are muslims. It is sad they resemble the hindus.

freaky and i thought Pakistanis were weird

When I went to Pakistan I saw a Muslim wedding procession... I honestly could not tell the difference between it and a Hindu wedding procession.

Astaghfirullah! What horrendous acts are these? Oh Allah, protect us and our children from ignorance, from shaytaan's whisperings and the evil of dajjal!

Ok. So Sunnis are sad that Muslims resemble Hindus. I guess all of us are homo sapiens so some resemblance is inevitable. Practices of Indian Muslims are weirder than Pakistanis. Okay. Pakistani wedding processions are looking like Hindu wedding processing and that is bad (I guess) and Sufis' urs festival is horrendous and due to Shaitan's whisperings.

Let us see what Shias have to say about us.

Are Bollywood Movies Haraam? (http://www.shiachat.com/forum/index.php?/topic/235002763-are-bollywood-movies-haraam/)

Some beautiful lines by posters there:


They contain music most of the time, I used to sing a long every love song lol. I stopped watching them for a while now, ofcourse because of the music which is haraam.

Also disagree on promoting Hinduism. The whole movie industry is about promoting stupid hindu mythology, hindu supposed supremacy on Muslims, and so on. And how come the male lead cast is a Hindu by name and the female lead cast is supposed to be a Muslim name person. The kind of venom they have against Muslims and their neighboring countries is also beyond imagination.

And the English. The stupidity of their anti-English stereotypes is beyond description. I know they allowed themselves to be colonised for a few hundred years, but it might be time to let it go...

Yes, it is a Muslim ghairat (apparently hard to fathom for some) issue too, that all lead cast Males are Hindus and all lead cast, the half naked, sexually frustrated lead cast females have Muslims sounding names. Why? To revenge the Muslim supremacy of 700 yrs over Hindus?

Putting your country above your religion is very much against Islam.

But the ignorance, the cultish behavior, the servitude, the mental inferiority, the asking recognition of Islam from idol Worshippers, the over pleasing we all are on the truth but with different path, mentality is on a crisis level among Indian Muslims. Particularly those from UP and Northern India are even in dire need of gaining some self respect. Hayderabadi Indian Muslims still have some backbone as a group.

No matter what others say, with all standards of sharia, Bollywood movies are worst than watching Hollywood movies. One screws your Ikhlaq, other screws your Ikhlaq and eiman both...

We all know Prophet Mohammed made music haraam. So, Carnatic/Hindustani music should not be enjoyed. Bollywood promotes stupid Hindu mythology and spews venom against India's neighbours. We allowed ourselves to be colonized by the Brits, you see, so we make fun of the Brits but we should just forget all that. Muslims had supremacy over us Hindus for 700 years. Great! Oh, and the next post? There is a hadith which the user flashed to say that patriotism is disallowed under Islam. Excellent! Indian Muslims are asking for recognition from us Hindus - who are of course stupid idol worshippers. UP and North Indian Muslims apparently do not have any backbone but Hyderabadi Muslims do. And finally, per Shariah, Bollywood movies screw you all ends up. (But atleast on this thread, there seemed to be an Indian Muslim who stood up for India/Hinduism. Salute to him!)

Now, while I agree that Bollywood movies are mostly trash (atleast on these parts I agreed with Muslim posters there :p), I thought it may be a good idea to know the love that Hindus and Hinduism generates on other forums lest we berate ourselves a lot for being anti-non-Hindu here on HDF.

So, what do you think based on this small sample size of two threads on two Muslim forums? Of course, we are who we are, and need not necessarily drag down the discourse to the lowest common denominator. But still, are we overly antagonistic towards non-Hindus here on HDF, much more than Muslims are antagonistic towards Hindus on their forums?

[Believer]

Namaste,

You are stirring up the pot by posting such inflammatory information. ;)
First I would ask Satay to remove this post, and then to ban you for life. ;)

Pranam.

[philosoraptor]

Bollywood films promote Hinduism? Really?

Funny, but I hear nothing but complaints from my Hindu friends about how Bollywood is so pro-Muslim.

Maybe if some up-and-coming terrorist were to just bomb the Bollywood studios, that would solve all our problems. :)

[philosoraptor]

Please note that was not a serious request. I was just being flippant. Really. :)

[satay]

namaskar,
I have yet to see a bollywood movie in the past twenty years that has promoted hinduism. Please pass me the name of such a movie or maybe I will join the muslim forum and ask that poster?

[devotee]

Namaste Wundermonk,

Somehow, I was refraining from answering to your posts seeing your strong sentiments against non-Hindus. However, I think it is better I speak my mind once again ... as there is no harm in making yet another effort to clear doubts.

I am neither asking anyone to be extra-courteous to non-Hindus nor asking anyone to become a doormat and I would never want that anyone of us get banned (BTW, who am I to decide that ??). Some of friends are using sarcastic and not-so-friendly language and remarks against me again and again. What is my fault ? What am I asking which is so painful ?

a) Muslims and Christians have done things which are abhorrent and abominable. However, is every Muslim bad ? Is every Christian bad ? I was once posted in Assam. Some Assamese passengers travelling in a train going through Hindi belt were attacked on some petty issues at one station and one Assamese girl was sexually assaulted. In trying to save that girl, one old lady (Hindi speaking) in the same train got grievously injured !

In retaliation, many poor Hindi speaking people in Assam were burnt alive, many girls were raped ... people fled in mass from Assam.

The rowdies who attacked the innocent passengers in train didn't get even a scratch but many innocent lives were lost and a strong sentiment of hatred was created between Assamese and Non-Assamese. No body took care to see that it was a Hindi speaking lady who got severely injured in trying to save the girl. Nobody thought for a second that Criminals are simply Criminals .. by giving them shelter under the name of a community, we encourage such elements to commit more crimes.

2) In 1984, a few killers belonging to Sikh community killed Indira Gandhi. I was in college at that time. Over night the Hindu and Sikhs who shared many things together became enemies. I saw one poor elderly Sikh who sold clothes in weekly market being insulted and thrashed on road ! Some people who tried to save the poor fellow too got bruised. We had one Sikh boy in our batch ... I and some boys together had a hard time in hiding him inside hostel and saving his life ! What did my Sikh friend do ? Did he kill Indira Gandhi ? Did he supported killers of Indira Gandhi ? No ! His only fault was that he was a Sikh !

3) A poor man's son became a criminal and fled to Pakistan. His very old father was beaten and attempt was made to rape his sister ! What did the old man and the poor girl do to deserve this treatment ?

Tell me, WM, if someone from another community commits a crime against our community, shall we take life of an innocent person just because he belongs to the other community ?

Do whatever you, Believer and Phil want and think right to do. I have no locus-standi to stand against any of you. I can control only myself and no other. May be my days on this forum are numbered. But that doesn't matter. Somethings are bound to happen which no one can stop. :)

OM

[Twilightdance]

Namaste Wundermonk,

Somehow, I was refraining from answering to your posts seeing your strong sentiments against non-Hindus. However, I think it is better I speak my mind once again ... as there is no harm in making yet another effort to clear doubts.

I am neither asking anyone to be extra-courteous to non-Hindus nor asking anyone to become a doormat and I would never want that anyone of us get banned (BTW, who am I to decide that ??). Some of friends are using sarcastic and not-so-friendly language and remarks against me again and again. What is my fault ? What am I asking which is so painful ?

a) Muslims and Christians have done things which are abhorrent and abominable. However, is every Muslim bad ? Is every Christian bad ? I was once posted in Assam. Some Assamese passengers travelling in a train going through Hindi belt were attacked on some petty issues at one station and one Assamese girl was sexually assaulted. In trying to save that girl, one old lady (Hindi speaking) in the same train got grievously injured !

In retaliation, many poor Hindi speaking people in Assam were burnt alive, many girls were raped ... people fled in mass from Assam.

The rowdies who attacked the innocent passengers in train didn't get even a scratch but many innocent lives were lost and a strong sentiment of hatred was created between Assamese and Non-Assamese. No body took care to see that it was a Hindi speaking lady who got severely injured in trying to save the girl. Nobody thought for a second that Criminals are simply Criminals .. by giving them shelter under the name of a community, we encourage such elements to commit more crimes.

2) In 1984, a few killers belonging to Sikh community killed Indira Gandhi. I was in college at that time. Over night the Hindu and Sikhs who shared many things together became enemies. I saw one poor elderly Sikh who sold clothes in weekly market being insulted and thrashed on road ! Some people who tried to save the poor fellow too got bruised. We had one Sikh boy in our batch ... I and some boys together had a hard time in hiding him inside hostel and saving his life ! What did my Sikh friend do ? Did he kill Indira Gandhi ? Did he supported killers of Indira Gandhi ? No ! His only fault was that he was a Sikh !

3) A poor man's son became a criminal and fled to Pakistan. His very old father was beaten and attempt was made to rape his sister ! What did the old man and the poor girl do to deserve this treatment ?

Tell me, WM, if someone from another community commits a crime against our community, shall we take life of an innocent person just because he belongs to the other community ?

Do whatever you, Believer and Phil want and think right to do. I have no locus-standi to stand against any of you. I can control only myself and no other. May be my days on this forum are numbered. But that doesn't matter. Somethings are bound to happen which no one can stop. :)

OM

You make the fundamental fallacy of trying to find the evil Muslim. Muslims are humans, and all humans have possibility of displaying behaviors we dub as "Evil". Nothing new there. However, with all the inter-regional and linguistic tensions in India, do you ever see the possibility that regionalism can create an Afghanistan, or Pakistan out of India? Can regionalism create the necessary circumstances for stoning women to death because they were seen singing in a video, or a rape victim being put in jail as punishment for provoking the rape by being a woman? Or organized genocide against other communities whenever feasible? (1984 sikh riot was organized by a political party and gandhies are no less than gods in India. And if you have lived in Assam you should know assamese separatism has a significant muslim problem embedded which is hushed under the carpert - but the specifics aside).

So the general lack of civility among Indians (the examples you bring in) is a completely different issue (but by no means less important! I have in past got the heat for criticizing openly racist behaviors of some of the posters here) from the problem of Islam. General criminal behavior among Indians is not a simple anecdote to the grand apocalyptic vision of Islamic Jehad and Martyrdom of Islamic ideology. And Islamic terrorism or rioting is not just general bad behavior of a few rowdy Muslims but most times enactments of this ideology and the vision of world domination & apocalypse they are driven by. Equating these two is either suicidal or being plane lazy to accept or look into facts.

After living all your life in India if you still find the numerous bombings, terror incidents, terror plots to be still fundamentally same as a bunch of hindi speaking thugs attacking non-hindi speaking Assamese passengers, then perhaves me saying the contrary won't matter.

Do all Muslims believe this grand vision of world conquer and apocalypse? Probably not (at least not seriously). But does that help? Absolutely not. All Muslims may not be Jehadis, but neither they are against it! And that is a very dangerous proposition. Not every German killed Jews, but most didn't think Hitler was wrong at the time. So did it help that all Germans didn't killed Jews? Did it avert the terrible tragedy and a world destroying war? Not all of us Indians are corrupt, but India is one of the most corrupt countries as neither are we sufficiently against corruption. Not all of us want dowry or torture women, yet India ranks behind Saudi Arabia on atrocities committed against women. Why?

One needs to understand that problem with Islam and Muslims is not a good muslim vs the evil muslim issue. It is simply Islamic ideology and lack of any inner reflection or opposition to its deadly elements within Muslim community. And it is also about Hindus or non Muslims taking steps to protect their religion, culture and way of living from this aggressive and destructive ideology.

As I have said, being aware and prepared about Islam is one issue. There are plenty of inner problems with hindu society, lack of civility being one of them. Believing in conspiracy theories left and right is another. Vedic supramacism is possibly another. We should not use the one as an anecdote to neutralize the other threat. Both are threats to Hindus.

[McKitty]

Not every German killed Jews, but most didn't think Hitler was wrong at the time.

Hello, sorry, I just wanted to add some things. I am from europe and my country suffered the war like many others, we deeply study WWII in school and I would like to clarify some things:

Hitler promised germans food, work in a country where the people were worried and lacking of it. Nobody though he was dangerous at this time, he was just talking about giving what his people lacked, so the people trusted him.
During WWII, yes, many germans engaged in the killing spree of Hitler...Many others protected Jews at the cost of their lives. Many others did nothing because they were afraid. Hitler killed Germans too.

During the meetings of Staline, when the people were asked to applause, the first to stop applause were killed. It was the Russian people, and they were afraid.

That's what I think about the muslims too. My country suffered from fear during this war, and it's the same for them. Under a strong governement, beetween the unfair leader and the ones following him, your neighbour who can tell lies about you to protect himself...It's not good to say out loud that you do not agree.
You get killed for a little step out of the path.
That does not mean you agree with them. That mean you are afraid to get killed, you are afraid you wife is beaten to death, you are afraid of your child taken and raised by bad people and becoming Jihadis.

I live with muslims. My country live in the constant memory of this war. Please, don't do the same mistakes...It will be most painful for your childrens than for you.


Aum~

[Ganeshprasad]

Pranam Devotee ji


Namaste Wundermonk,

I have no locus-standi to stand against any of you. I can control only myself and no other. May be my days on this forum are numbered. But that doesn't matter. Somethings are bound to happen which no one can stop. :)

OM

I do not know why you feel this way, i have not read any post that has been directed at you, may be i am wrong, you should continue to stand by your convictions. i like to think i am not sectarian and do not hate people who follow their religion, well live and let live that use to be my moto but increasingly i am getting disillusioned by this one sided acceptance. our wanting to live peacefully is being perceived as a weakness, over the centuries time and again we have been trampled by this very people we are trying to appease. they come here in disguise and we are suppose to be nice to them, answer their silly questions that are designed to put a wedge between us, i am not at all surprised by the reactions on display.
You know the worst thing i find in today's India, the word Hindu has become a dirty word, draws an immediate reaction of being fanatic, these secularism is a curse we need to address, we need to change this perception not by further being weak but be strong and stand for truth for what it is and if we need to speak stark truth about those who give us pain so be it, otherwise we will be missing the message that is in the Gita, stand up and be counted.

Jai Shree Krishna

[philosoraptor]

In what I hope most will take as a humorous aside, I can't help but note that those who most emphatically insist that the world is illusion, are also the same ones who seem most concerned about the opinions of illusory members on this illusory forum. :)

[Eastern Mind]

In what I hope most will take as a humorous aside, I can't help but note that those who most emphatically insist that the world is illusion, are also the same ones who seem most concerned about the opinions of illusory members on this illusory forum. :)

Vannakkam: Hinduism's middle name is Irony.

Aum Namasivaya

[Seeker]

Namaste Wundermunk Ji,

Answer to your OP from my POV - certainly some members are hostile to non-hindus. Some are hostile to even 'western hindus'.

"Hindu' is looked at in this forum both as a religious community (more in a tribal sense, since many hindus do not care about dharma traditions) and as a group of seekers exchanging common ideas w.r.t sanatana dharma.

The first group certainly has angst against muslims. It is a historical fact the India went thru terrible genocides and her dignity was stripped for hundreds of years.Muslims may quote the 'peaceful' nature of their religion and challenge us to show violent verses in QUran. But facts prove otherwise. Whenever I read these I get depressed , helpless and my blood boils. But these are the emotions I am striving to bring under control and I walk away from any such discussions for the sake of my own spiritual growth.

The second group has things to teach me - that scriptures say will help me progress in my path. They dont talk about their 'bucket lists' of vain , but rather expound on scriptures and their interpretations.This is highly unproductive to name call and ridicule these folks. I have seen them being called 'one generation hindus' , 'doormats' or 'high priests'.

[Believer]

Namaste,


You know the worst thing i find in today's India, the word Hindu has become a dirty word, draws an immediate reaction of being fanatic....
That is the ONLY central theme of so many of my posts. Somehow the meaning gets distorted/mutated/brutalized by some of the native Hindus who never ever want to think about it and by some of the Western Hindus who lived in India for a month and become 'experts' on the complexities of the ethnic/religious/caste relations. This issue gets jumbled with a long list of social/religious/criminal clashes and diluted to a degree where the central theme is totally ignored and tangential issues become more important. When we have one central issue, why bring out the million different problems that YOUR head is filled with and mix them all up.

Western Hindus would do better to leave such threads alone as they have no concept of the history or the ground reality, no constructive contribution to make, and blabbering as experts does more harm than good. Just an observation. Of course everyone is free to screw around with every issue that comes up, and bring in Hitler and Mussolini and European religious crusades and the Moors taking over Spain and the French invasions of England and the British colonialism and turn the thread into a meaningless history class, where everybody writes and nobody reads. Projecting 'your experiences with your history' and your past 'experimentation with Xitianity/Islam' onto such Hindu issues leads to a downward spiral.

In what I hope most will take as a humorous aside, I can't help but note that those who most emphatically insist that the world is illusion, are also the same ones who seem most concerned about the opinions of illusory members on this illusory forum. :)
The illusory opinions of the illusory members in this illusory forum will change the course of history.;) Great observation.

Pranam.

[philosoraptor]

Wow. Godwin's law in only 13 replies.

:)

[philosoraptor]

Well, maybe that's not an accurate assessment. After all, Believer was just pointing out that other people who don't know what they are talking about invoke Hitler - he himself did not invoke Hitler to make the other party back down.

There are, in my observation, two interpretations of the application of Godwin's law to internet discussions. The first holds that the law is satisfied only when one party unfairly denounces the other party or its ideas by invoking a Hitler comparison. The second interpretation holds that *any* mention of Hitler satisfies the condition of the law being true.

But, let us not get caught up in these differences. They are all illusory anyway. :)

[ShivaIsLord]

Heh, I feel special. Wundermonk linked to my thread on ShiaChat (Are Bollywood Movies Haraam?). I created that thread because I was always being told that they were, but I really don't see the issue. Other Muslims are watching American movies, so why can't I watch Indian movies? Indian movies aren't more indecent (in dress) than American movies! And, at least the one's I've watched, don't actively promote Hinduism. They have elements of many religious traditions. They show Hinduism, Sikhism, Buddhism, Islam, etc. As far as I can see, they don't promote one above the others. But then again, I don't really speak Hindi . . . so . . . :p

Personally, I don't think there is a problem with Bollywood movies. I know some Muslim will come along and say that it's Bollywood's fault that I am learning about Hinduism or that I've become "desensitized" to "idol-worship", but in reality it's the other way around. The only reason I watched my first ever Bollywood movie was because I was already interested in India's culture and religion.

Unfortunately, a lot of my fellow-Muslims are very close minded about other cultures and belief systems. It's really sad, actually, because they will miss out on a great amount of beauty in this world.

[Believer]

Namaste,

The second interpretation holds that *any* mention of Hitler satisfies the condition of the law being true.
With that interpretation, the law was proven with the 7th post (4th paragraph).

Pranam.

[wundermonk]

Heh, I feel special. Wundermonk linked to my thread on ShiaChat (Are Bollywood Movies Haraam?).

Howdy Jafar. I kinda suspected you may be here after your PM to me on SC. ;)

We are a bit rough on Islam here, unfortunately, but that is the way it is. We feel, justifiably if I may add, we have been rubbed the wrong way by Abrahamic faiths.

So, watch yourself as you tread here. ;)

[ShivaIsLord]

Howdy Jafar. I kinda suspected you may be here after your PM to me on SC. ;)

We are a bit rough on Islam here, unfortunately, but that is the way it is. We feel, justifiably if I may add, we have been rubbed the wrong way by Abrahamic faiths.

So, watch yourself as you tread here. ;)

Hey! Yeah, I was thinking about telling you, but I figured you would find out anyway :P

I understand. Abrahamic faiths tend to do that to people. Divide and conquer is all we know, unfortunately.

[philosoraptor]

Namaste,

With that interpretation, the law was proven with the 7th post (4th paragraph).

Pranam.

oops! you're right. thanks for the correction. Godwin's law in 7 replies is pretty amazing.

[mradam83]

Namaste.

As someone who is now embracing what a Hindu is and what it means, I can give you an Ex- Christian post on it.

I think in about 85-90% of cases, the criticism is spot on. What I find is that Christians in general, even of they're extremely liberal, tend to really talk about their religion a lot. I think subconsciously it's an ingrained way of trying to bring people "to god" and a way of justifying belief.

That was a criticism I used to get a lot when I was a Christian about Proselytising, and I could never see the harm. Now I'm free of it and can look on "the other side of the coin" and not of the faith I can see why it's so criticised. Islam is the same too - but in the case of Islam it is much more regemented and aggressive in terms of trying to bring people to the faith. To me, that way of thinking is like the antithesis to Hinduism and other Dharmic religions and it is just so alien.

"I'll pray for you" is a classic example of why I think the criticism is justified of Abrahamic religions. Assuming their way is right and telling someone they'll get them "help" reinforces a lot of bad feelings and makes people go to extremes to put the religion down.

Not a short answer there, but an honest one.

[UniversalLove]

To be honest, yes I do think that HDF (overall) is often unnecessarily anti-non-Hindu.
In this online community, it seems that whichever religion you adhere to is the measure of how "good" a person you are. For example, if you are Christian or Muslim, you are most likely thought of as being immoral or a "terrorist." And this offends me personally not only because I value the respect of all religions, but also because I have family and friends who are Christians, some are Muslims. And these people are very good-hearted and kind to others. When people say bad things about others of a particular religion, that is not only an attack on the adherents themselves, but also on those who love and are close to them.

There also seems to be the notion of a "supreme religion." Hinduism (Sanatana Dharma) is, of course, sacred and central to this community. It is cetainly a very beautiful religion. But I wouldn't say it is the "supreme religion," just as that title also wouldn't fit Christianity, Islam, Judaism, Buddhism, etc.
It isn't that one religion is better than another. They're just different ways of thinking and living.

In the end, is it really about which religion you adhered to? Or is it rather about how you practiced your beliefs and treated others?

[philosoraptor]

If I'm an atheist but treated everyone else nicely, will that secure for me a good place in the next life?

[UniversalLove]

If I'm an atheist but treated everyone else nicely, will that secure for me a good place in the next life?

I wasn't trying to say that treating people well will send you to heaven. I was trying to make the point that, in the end, being kind to people and practicing your beliefs/values are far more important than what religion you adhere to (if you do adhere to one).

If you're an atheist, Christian, Hindu, etc. and treat people nicely, that's wonderful. :)

[Eastern Mind]

Vannakkam UL: The problem with this view, from my POV, is that there is no definition of dharma or adharma contained in it. Are you saying that if my religion involves cannibalism, child exploitation, misuse of the planet, but since as long as I practice what I personally believe, I'm still going to make progress on the path?

I hope this isn't what you're saying, but that's how it could be interpreted.

Aum Namasivaya

[McKitty]

If I'm an atheist but treated everyone else nicely, will that secure for me a good place in the next life?

http://cdn.onelargeprawn.co.za/wp-content/uploads/2010/11/Philosoraptor_template.jpg

[UniversalLove]

Hi EasternMind,

I meant that being kind to people is fundamentally important.
I wasn't advocating any of the things you mentioned, because all of those contradict treating people well.

It just troubles me that some people on this site get nervous or upset just because a person may call him/herself a "Christian" or a "Muslim." That person may be moral and principled and not fit any of the common stereotypes on HDF, like Christians and Muslims being "terrorists". As it's said, actions speak louder than words.

[Eastern Mind]

Vannakkam: And herein lies the problem: Some people believe it is an act of pure kindness to bring a particular message that includes, "My way (read 'religion') is the only way!"

Then the troubles start. But I'm out of this thread now. Lets just say I can predict the future, and where this discussion will go.

Aum Namasivaya

[UniversalLove]

Yes, it is true that people define kindness differently. I was thinking of it in light of not trying to force religion on others, for example. Christians or Muslims coming to this site might not try to force their beliefs on others. They may simply want to learn about Hinduism because they're open-minded individuals, and they may even value diversity.
The bottom line is: Please don't judge others. And, beneath all of our differences, we are all human beings who have the potential to be kind people.

[philosoraptor]

I wasn't trying to say that treating people well will send you to heaven. I was trying to make the point that, in the end, being kind to people and practicing your beliefs/values are far more important than what religion you adhere to (if you do adhere to one).
:)

For someone who considers the end of life a serious issue, and wants to secure one's future (if any) after that, it's far more important to know what the truth is than to simply assume that one's path practiced faithfully is sufficient.

There is of course, no reason why one can't be kind while doing it.

Thanks to McKitty for posting my portrait. The artist definitely captured my good side, don't you think?

[UniversalLove]

[quote=philosoraptor;86354]For someone who considers the end of life a serious issue, and wants to secure one's future (if any) after that, it's far more important to know what the truth is than to simply assume that one's path practiced faithfully is sufficient. quote]

That's a good point, but who actually knows the truth about what happens after the end of life? Different religions teach different things regarding the afterlife.

[philosoraptor]

That's a good point, but who actually knows the truth about what happens after the end of life? Different religions teach different things regarding the afterlife.

Very true. That's why both radical acceptance of contradictory doctrines and stubborn, unquestioning adherence to a single doctrine are useless in the grand scheme of things. One has to progress from immature faith to mature conviction in the correctness of the correct path, whatever that is.

[Believer]

Namaste,


Thanks to McKitty for posting my portrait. The artist definitely captured my good side, don't you think?
You handsome devil! ;)

That's a good point, but who actually knows the truth about what happens after the end of life? Different religions teach different things regarding the afterlife.
I wonder if a person does not accept the Hindu philosophy, why is he here arguing with people? Why not visit a Xitian or a Muslim forum and tell them you are a Hindu and want to be a peace loving participant. Let us see how long will you last there. Being a troll who does not accept Hindu principles/theology is just wasting his time. The meaningless back and forth with everyone might be your entertainment for the day, but there are several programs on TV that could perhaps provide better entertainment.

Pranam.

[philosoraptor]

Namaste,


You handsome devil! ;)


Do you mean that Believer? Really? I get self-conscious about my looks sometimes. It's like, people look at me and think I have really dry skin or something...

[UniversalLove]

I wonder if a person does not accept the Hindu philosophy, why is he here arguing with people? Why not visit a Xitian or a Muslim forum and tell them you are a Hindu and want to be a peace loving participant. Let us see how long will you last there. Being a troll who does not accept Hindu principles/theology is just wasting his time. The meaningless back and forth with everyone might be your entertainment for the day, but there are several programs on TV that could perhaps provide better entertainment.

Pranam.


Ok. I'm sorry. It's just that I have family and friends who are Christians, some are Muslims, and I've seen nasty posts around this site. And no, I'm not trying to be a troll nor do I get entertainment from any of this.

[Believer]

Namaste,

It's just that I have family and friends who are Christians, some are Muslims, and .............
I am sorry to hear that. Please go and hug them all, and when you are ready to talk about Hinduism, kiss them good bye and come back here. ;)

Pranam.

[Mana]

हरिः ओम्


Namaste,


Believer, Wow, your 1008th post was a flamer! Speaks volumes.


Namaste,

I am sorry to hear that. Please go and hug them all, and when you are ready to talk about Hinduism, kiss them good bye and come back here. ;)

Pranam.

That was disgusting!

philosoraptor, you have settled into the pack very quickly! I think your name speaks a 1000 words also.

In response to the question at hand: "Is HDF unnecessarily anti-non-Hindus?" I would say that on the whole no,
but that unfortunately, recently a group or "pack" of very "linear minded" unfeeling individuals, have started scaring off any
new members who don't show the same rigid linear nature as their own.

This is a forum guys, where people come to learn about sanAtana dharma. Why do you always have to behave like the
worst elements of any religion?

This is plainly visible, and frankly; most embarrassing.


praṇāma

mana


ॐ नमः शिवाय
Aum Namaḥ Śivāya

[Mana]

हरिः ओम्


Namaste UniversalLove.



... but who actually knows the truth about what happens after the end of life? Different religions teach different things regarding the afterlife.


A key aspect of sanAtana dharma is to my mind, that on becoming whole hearted, when one finds knowledge of the self;
one no longer fears death nor feels the need to ask what happens next, it becomes a non issue. Allowing one to live fully,
wholly, free from the constraints that those thoughts and fears place upon us.

Do you see how greatly this differs in perspective?


praṇāma

mana


ॐ नमः शिवाय
Aum Namaḥ Śivāya

[Believer]

Namaste,

हरिः ओम्


Namaste,


Believer, Wow, your 1008th post was a flamer! Speaks volumes.



That was disgusting!

philosoraptor, you have settled into the pack very quickly! I think your name speaks a 1000 words also.

In response to the question at hand: "Is HDF unnecessarily anti-non-Hindus?" I would say that on the whole no,
but that unfortunately, recently a group or "pack" of very "linear minded" unfeeling individuals, have started scaring off any
new members who don't show the same rigid linear nature as their own.

This is a forum guys, where people come to learn about sanAtana dharma. Why do you always have to behave like the
worst elements of any religion?

This is plainly visible, and frankly; most embarrassing.


praṇāma

mana


ॐ नमः शिवाय
Aum Namaḥ Śivāya

One thing I have learned is to not make a post in anger. That is when most of your faculties shut down and you tend to say things that you will be sorry for later on.

I can explain everything in my post about this 'flaming'. But your post is another story. Just read it again and maybe you might feel ashamed of yourself for making it. And that too couched between हरिः ओम् and ॐ नमः शिवाय. I would seriously be doing some introspection if I made a post like this against a 'pack' who have not wronged me personally.

Pranam.

[Mana]

हरिः ओम्


Namaste Believer,


... I would seriously be doing some introspection if I made a post like this against a 'pack' who have not wronged me personally.


Wow, I'm speechless ...

I did not write in anger, and I don't feel any shame upon rereading. I think that you might underestimate the determination of my posture.

I am quite simply expressing my views, formulated from my perspective as one does in a free society. These days in HDF, it would seem
that freedom of speech is going out of the window and the pack mentality is becoming firmly established, as opposed to any guided dharma.
Fortunately there are excellent contributions to this website also, I would suggest some of our more self estimated members take some notes
upon reading the thread titled "Utter basics. (http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showthread.php?goto=newpost&t=9649)"

When Surya burns far to brightly; with no flow of water to cool his frown; the landscape rapidly becomes torrid desert.


praṇāma

mana


ॐ नमः शिवाय
Aum Namaḥ Śivāya

[Believer]

Namaste,

हरिः ओम्


Namaste Believer,



Wow, I'm speechless ...

I did not write in anger, and I don't feel any shame upon rereading. I think that you might underestimate the determination of my posture.

I am quite simply expressing my views, formulated from my perspective as one does in a free society. These days in HDF, it would seem
that freedom of speech is going out of the window and the pack mentality is becoming firmly established, as opposed to any guided dharma.
Fortunately there are excellent contributions to this website also, I would suggest some of our more self estimated members take some notes
upon reading the thread titled "Utter basics. (http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showthread.php?goto=newpost&t=9649)"

When Surya burns far to brightly; with no flow of water to cool his frown; the landscape rapidly becomes torrid desert.


praṇāma

mana


ॐ नमः शिवाय
Aum Namaḥ Śivāya

How does one go on after becoming speechless?

Pranam.

[UniversalLove]

I am sorry to hear that. Please go and hug them all, and when you are ready to talk about Hinduism, kiss them good bye and come back here. ;)

Why are you sorry? I'm not sorry at all. Because I understand that just because one calls themself a Christian or a Muslim doesn't necessarily mean they're a terrorist. You don't know who my family or friends are, so don't tell me that you're "sorry" please.

I am sorry, however, for any injustice that was done towards you, your family, or friends in the name of those religions. But contributing to the tension between your religion and theirs will not heal any pain. And remember that there will always be someone who will disagree with your way of life, and would perhaps even go as far as to persecute you. That is universal.
Persecutors are also not limited to just one (or, in this case, two) religion(s). I wouldn't doubt, for example, that there are persecutors who "follow" Sanatana Dharma, Buddhism, Sikhism, etc.

The moral is this: There are both good people and bad people in every religious tradition.

[Eastern Mind]

Vannakkam UL: It's difficult to understand such wide ranging POV's without having lived it, just as an onlooker on a school playground has difficulty understanding any bully-victim relationship, because the whole story and the personal ramifications are not heard.

I took a look at some of your previous posts here, and am wondering now, a year later, how your stance has changed, if at all. Back then you seemed almost keen on joining the ranks of Sanatana Dharma. I wonder if there have been any changes in the past year, and if the nature of your curiousity has changed in any way.

Basically, I see two types (this is a vast oversimplification) of newcomers who come here. Some are with open mind, and over many discussions, they slowly change. They see through the 'hatred' they perceive here, and continue along, because they really know somewhere deep inside that SD is for them. They make it to temples, read more, and really make an effort of trying to understand SD and its many ramifications. Even if they leave, I think we have helped in some way to deepen their understanding of the place.

Others come with a strong perceived idea of what SD is already, either from their reading, or experience, or both. They are 'set' and the subconscious is already molded. So although many of us here do our best to try and help out, it becomes tedious and a labour, because we don't really see any changes in attitude. I taught for many years and this personality type was never easy, by the end of the year, at my wit's end, I practically gave up on them. Some probably interpreted my indifference as 'hatred'. So even on these forums, I'm seen by some as 'an intolerant old hardlined fool.'

Rather than get into these kinds of arguments with the people you perceive as 'hating' you, why not ask questions of others, put such people on ignore for your own sanity and get what you can out of it.

If all you have is a small cup to drink from, why not use it?

Best wishes.

Aum Namasivaya

[Believer]

Namaste,

All that is respectfully requested is that members talk about Hinduism in the Hindu forum. If you have family or friends who are non Hindus, there is no need to bring that up here. Just adore them and then come here to talk Hinduism. If you yourself are a non-Hindu, please feel free to learn and contribute about Hinduism. Most problems come up either from trolls who want to talk jeebus/alla, or from people who insist on bringing up anti-Hindu/non-Hindu issues. If however we do detect negativity in a thread, we can walk away from it, put the person on 'Ignore' for good, or get down on the floor for a rough and tumble debate. The choice is yours. In your defense, a member lumped me with some other forum members and collectively called us a 'pack', as in a 'pack of dogs'. , and 'linear minded' as in 'lowest common denominator'. I chose to walk away from these insults and he became speechless:) , but still kept talking/posting. So, as you see, the reaction from others depends on our behavior. By and large there is peace and tranquility in the room. It is disturbed either by trolls, or by some of the well meaning Hindus who come to the defense of trolls and want to turn the forum into a Universal/New-age lovey-dovey forum. And I have no qualms with that either, if the moderator wishes to go that route and have the forum operate as a free for all, Universal Love/brotherhood forum, so be it.

I hope I made myself abundantly clear, and NO, I don't speak on behalf of, or in conjunction with others. So calling me a dog from a pack disgraces the writer. I am unaffected and it is business as usual. I just hope that my comments are not mutated, or taken out of context to boost someone else's agenda.

Pranam.

[UniversalLove]

Hello EasternMind,


It's difficult to understand such wide ranging POV's without having lived it, just as an onlooker on a school playground has difficulty understanding any bully-victim relationship, because the whole story and the personal ramifications are not heard.

I completely understand. I am aware that Hindus have wrongfully been facing persecution. I'm not at all trying to take sides; just as I'm upset about how Christians and Muslims are spoken of on HDF, I'm also equally upset about how Hindus are being treated. I wholeheartedly support everyone's right to follow the path they choose.


I took a look at some of your previous posts here, and am wondering now, a year later, how your stance has changed, if at all. Back then you seemed almost keen on joining the ranks of Sanatana Dharma. I wonder if there have been any changes in the past year, and if the nature of your curiousity has changed in any way.

I am still very interested in exploring Sanatana Dharma and communicating with people who follow it.

You're right, though; I shouldn't get too caught up in these arguments. I'm very sorry.
Thanks. :)

[Eastern Mind]

I am still very interested in exploring Sanatana Dharma and communicating with people who follow it.



Vannakkam: Ask away then! Full steam ahead. :)

Aum Namasivaya

[UniversalLove]

Hello Believer,

I understand. And I did come to HDF to discuss Hinduism, not to promote anything or bring things from other religions into it. I just come across comments about people of other religions which I think are hurtful, and I wanted to talk about it. But I know I can't really change people's perceptions of others, especially (in this case) from what I've heard has happened in India.
All I want is for there to be forgiveness in our hearts and peace.

[Mana]

हरिः ओम्


Namaste All,


EM, very wise words and observation, this really is playground antics, problems start when money land and power come in, so
not an issue here in a Forum, but the same energy's and emotions.

Believer, with all due respect. Couldn't you concentrate on teaching, of that which you do know about sanAtana dharma? Rather
than getting all worked up about other faiths all the time, and it is all the time. Your are stressing your self out and the other
folk who read here myself included. It is becoming, above all else, repetitive and boring.

I was actually thinking of velociraptors, and not dogs, and dogs are wonderful animals; if you would like me to go back
and edit my post to fit your fantastic story; I will gladly oblige. I am so very sorry, I know that I shouldn't have said that :duel:...

Have you never noticed a pack instinct amongst humans?
Oh well I thought that was obvious. We do after all is said and done have greatly differing perspectives.
Fortunately most of us are more like Cows.

UniversalLove, definitely avoid the arguments there is so much wisdom to absorb and learn from here; note to self avoid
arguments and absorb more wisdom.


praṇāma

mana


ॐ नमः शिवाय
Aum Namaḥ Śivāya

[Believer]

Namaste,

My respectful explaining of my position in relation to this topic, and the name calling by certain individuals, all got deleted from the forum. Who is protecting whom? I sure would like to see my last post spared. But maybe, others with authority have better judgement.

Pranam.

PS Restoration of the above post is appreciated!

[philosoraptor]

How many of us have had the experience of Christians coming to the doorstep to explain to us about their religion? I've seen this end in several ways:

1) Christian: "Sir, is it ok if I tell you about the Bible?" Philosoraptor: "Sure, but can I first talk to you about Bhagavad-gita, and the importance of accepting spiritual knowledge from a source that is unauthored and hence flawless?" Christian: "Oh, I'm so sorry to inconvenience you. Have a nice day!" (runs away)

2) Christian: "Sir, is it ok if we pray for you?" Philosoraptor: "No, but I'll be happy to pray for you. Here is a prayer I read in the Bhaagavatam in which the devotee, shedding tears out of ecstatic love of Narayana, praises Him for His divine qualities, compassion, and.... hey, where are you going? Come back!"

3) Christian: "Sir did you know that in the Bible, it says 'thou shalt have no other gods besides me, for I am the Lord thy God?'" Philosoraptor: (wearing sandalwood paste and vermillion from my morning puja) "Yes, we Hindus agree. That's why I can't worship a false god from a desert tribe who threatened to kill his own prophet unless he got a circumcision done."

[satay]

namaskar,

Is HDF unnecessarily anti-non-Hindus?

No, not unnecessarily.

Hindu hai jo, agar mangi kisi ne tu de dega apni shirt aur ho jaiga nanga,
jaida usko tang kiya tu marega danda. :)