Yoga and Drugs (Chemicals)

[Giza]

Hello everyone, I was hoping some of you might share your experiences/opinions regarding drug use as it actually facilitates the practice of any type of yoga.

For example (an example many of you will probably agree on) I find that drinking coffee helps to increase my ability to concentrate during meditation. Every time I've experienced Dhyana - the second stage of meditation as defined by Patanjali - I had previously been drinking coffee. Additionally, though I don't know what chemicals it has in it, when I eat enough celery I find my third eye is stimulated, as well as muladhara chakra.
I've never smoked weed while in meditation, but I know that is common both here in America and in India; can any of you who have tell me if indica or sativa is better?

Please share your experiences.

[Eastern Mind]

Vannakkam: I do drink coffee, as a matter of an old habit, but I'm really not sure if it has any effect. As for other chemical drugs, I would say 98% of all Hindu teachers would advise against it, as there is no permanent benefit. The drugs of Hinduism are the ones inside us produced by endocrine glands.

Welcome to these forums, and I'm sure most will answer similarly to me, and hopefully you're satisfied with that. Basically Drugs and Hinduism are a poor mix.

Aum Namasivaya

[Shuddhasattva]

Namaste


Hello everyone, I was hoping some of you might share your experiences/opinions regarding drug use as it actually facilitates the practice of any type of yoga.
Patanjali refers to the use of drugs relatively neutrally as one of the possible means of gaining siddhi. Siddhi is usually interpreted as particular 'magical powers,' which are real enough, but its real meaning is attainment of a particular perfection through a state of consciousness which absorbed into itself a shakti, or collections of shaktis.

In other words, patanjali is saying that drugs can bring one into such contact with these shaktis and may result, probably depending on how one works with them, in the attainment of siddhi.

That said, it's not something to rely on.

As far as cannabis/ganja (in my opinion, calling it 'weed' belittles this wonderful drug) sativa is generally better for an increase in mental powers and concentration, if you access savikalpa samadhi through it the effects should go on for much longer than merely being "stoned" - hours at least.

It's important not to get scattered though, concentrate your thoughts on divinity and... enjoy the ride.

I would agree, by the way, that the most important chemicals are those produced within the body, though not just by the endocrine system. Endocannabinoids for example, are extremely important. So is cerebrospinal fluid. So is DMT produced by the pineal gland and other tryptamines. So is...

This, in my opinion, is the core of the sanatana dharma, demonstrated well in the Vedas. This is soma, this is the pravargya milk of the taittirya aranyaka, this is khecari. The internal yajnas and homas to the fire framed by sun and moon, the generation of the rasas and purification through the manthana of bhairava into amrta.

Nonetheless, external sources (and more exoteric, literal interpretations of vedic rites) should not be rejected out of hand.

Hope this is helpful to you

Namaste

[Mana]

हरिः ओम्


Namaste Giza,


Some-things in life are best not rushed, firstly, you should be clear as to what exactly you are hoping to achieve and why.
The happening of realisation or awakening, is meaningless if the soul is not ready for it; do you think the soul will be
capable of understanding or even recognising samAdhi before it is ready?

I see only the rapid road to a dependence, which is not going to lead to release.

A key to realisation is independence, not dependence.

I see no benefit with drugs? This may lead to mokSa in rare incidences but I wouldn't recommend it as a path, I will
speculate that those who are helped by them will have found their way with out anyway but for most the effect is the
inverse and they become trapped by the drug with no gains at all.

With all that said, there are some interesting papers in which LSD is said to be a dramatic "cure" for alcoholism (http://www.nature.com/news/lsd-helps-to-treat-alcoholism-1.10200)
when administered in the presence of a Counsellor or perhaps one should say Guru. But this is not yoga.


The art is in the timing and the practise, to find ones posture with out props or crutches.
You will find much on these subjects here on HDF.


praṇāma

mana


ॐ नमः शिवाय
Aum Namaḥ Śivāya

[Arjuni]

Namasté,

Giza, I have no experience with drugs; in fact, I gave up alcohol and cigarettes in becoming Hindu, and am currently tapering back caffeine, too. Regarding the other two:

Have you ever been diagnosed with (or suspected to have) ADD or ADHD? I ask because for folks with that condition, caffeine often serves as a self-medication because it produces a relaxing and expanding effect, instead of the stimulating, jittery effect it usually gives. Coffee would not be a meditation aid for most people, hence the suggestion.

From my Ayurveda course, I read that celery "cleanses the mind and emotions and improves perception. It increases the element of ether, giving space for meditation." So if it agrees with your digestion and is a vegetable you enjoy, it seems like an excellent choice!

Indraneela
===
Oṁ Indrāya Namaḥ.
Oṁ Namaḥ Śivāya.

[ShivaFan]

Namaste Mr. Giza,

Durga rides on top Of a tiger. While their are some very, very advanced yogis in the Sundabarns who will ride on a wild Tiger, I would not recommend you doing so since you are not even in the same Mount Meru of Mind they are traveling on and planting wondrous spiritual herbs upon. Nor would I recommend any hallucinogenic drug or mercury based drug such as marijuana or hasheesh for you, the right question isn't being presented to even go there for you which would only open yourself to lower and even demonic forces which are actually very real and looking for rather susceptible bodily souls who are subject to very serious mistakes even if well intentioned.

With all due respect, believe me I have known a few, who started off with good intention and interest in yoga, and they thought they could build a stairway to heaven down the path of drugs, two are dead and one is in prison.

Do not let me be too rash regarding my witness to such mistakes, and my sense is you will not go their other than a cup of coffee for which there is little harm there (but try tea instead, especially Ceylon tea), but if I were to suggest to you the most powerful shakti or bliss or light or moment for you, let me be so humble to ask you to try singing some bhajans in the company of devotees of Deva and of Yoga.

A bhajan will make more of an impact than any plant or powder or pill, to your body and to your mind and soul. Shiva drank the poison and it stained his throat blue, and there may be a great yogi of His who has smoked ganja.

But are you a great yogi? You can find many false yogis who smoke ganja, but I haven't found a one Great Yogi who does yet.

A very, very small amount of snake venom is good for high blood pressure. But the purpose of a very, very small amount of snake venom is for the heart, and while a better heart may be conductive to better yoga, snake venom is in this case a medicine and not a yoga discipline. Shiva did not drink a very, very small amount, it was a very strong and potent amount. But I wouldn't want to see you try.

He is The Great Lord. Let us sing bhajans to him. You are invited!

With only loving regard, no malicious intent,
God bless you and all the best!

[Giza]

I can tell I'm going to like it here. All intelligent and thought provoking replies! It seems that many of you have tried to tailor your replies to suit me personally, for which I thank you. I hope you will consider it permissible then for me to use this as an excuse to introduce myself a little further. Indeed, as many of you have guessed, I'm not a great yogi. But neither am I a "druggie". I've never done anything harder than alcohol. I've never smoked ganja (apologies to Shuddhasattva for calling it weed), or done any other drug whatever (excepting some antihistamines for my allergies).

So, for a little background information: I'm 21, and I've been consistently practicing meditation on my chakras since August 2009. Only a few months ago, I got out of jail. I spent a total of 6 years there, since I was 15. I was convicted of manslaughter and therefore charged as an adult. While there I got very deep into yogic meditation. Essentially my technique was to focus on the physical location of any given chakra and do breathing techniques, especially kumbhaka or retaining the breath. I would do this in Shavasana (lying flat on my back) as I found it was more conducive to eliminating physical tension; I did not have the problem many have experienced of losing concentration and falling asleep. As my practice progressed I found that I intermittently exhibited some interesting, if useless, "talents". Seeing auras, hearing peoples subvocalizations (a subvocalization is when a person "speaks" in their mind, as when reading a book or when they've got something "on the tip of their tongue"; as I understand it according to my experiance, this is not what people rightly call "clairaudiance" but rather is in fact telepathy and has more to do with ajna chakra than vishuddha) and maybe a few other things that I'm forgetting. All of which are cool, but not really that helpful to me or anyone else, especially uncontrolled. Where was I? Well, I've been out of jail for a few months now. My practice has slowed down, I don't have the time to try to concentrate for hours at a time anymore. I wish I did. I really liked my life in jail, at least the yoga part. I kept to myself and did my best to make it all one big "yoga part". I was denied parole twice on purpose - I presented myself poorly because I didn't want to leave. I thought I could raise my kundalini safely if I just had the time, intelligence, patience, skill, and perseverance. I changed my mind because my family was suffering to see me locked up, and I wanted to look for a guru.

On that note, I've been in contact with the Kuai Aadheenam, but they won't accept me because I will be 25 by the time I can legally leave the state, which is too old by their policy. I've only found out today, sadly. I'm also interested in the Bihar Yoga School, but I have no idea about how they run their organization, only that the books Swami Satyananda Saraswati has written are brilliant.

If anyone is interested this is a link to a short thread I started on Yoga Forums.com regarding a personal experience I had hurting myself through meditation, it may clarify anything I've left out here (again I'm Giza): http://www.yogaforums.com/forums/f20/chakra-pain-9167.html

I have to say one more time, thank you all for the intelligent answers!:D
I'm happy to answer any questions.

[Giza]

Have you ever been diagnosed with (or suspected to have) ADD or ADHD? I ask because for folks with that condition, caffeine often serves as a self-medication because it produces a relaxing and expanding effect, instead of the stimulating, jittery effect it usually gives. Coffee would not be a meditation aid for most people, hence the suggestion.

No, in fact, quite the opposite. I'm introverted, and I would describe my concentration as very good. But I agree with you that most people find that the stimulating, jittery effect that coffee gives them is not conducive to meditation. It has that effect on me, in fact. But, if you wait long enough, that effect wears off. I've found that once I have just the right amount of caffeine in my system - not too much, not too little - my ability to concentrate effectively will multiply exponentially, even to the point where I can hurt myself. (see the link in my last post)

[Spiritualseeker]

Namaste,

Giza I feel that it all depends on one's ability to focus. For example. Some people smoke Ganja and have difficulty concentrating. This is usually, because a lot of thoughts may arise. This is something that is interesting about Ganja is it magnifies what is going on in your inner world. Not everyone is able to focus. I feel if people use Ganja and if a storm of thoughts and emotions arise they can look into them, because that is the whole reason. It is sort of as if the Ganja is revealing your problems for you to look at. If you feel fully usually the thoughts quiet and you actually work through some attachments. Ganja has an affect of allowing you to also feel the inner vibrations of the body. This is good for the cells and the body in general. It also quiets the mind when you feel that energy swimming through you. I say if someone smokes Ganja they need to be disciplined in remaining in the Present moment. This is a challenge, but if one makes this intention firmly I feel they can achieve it.

I use Caffeine, but I feel that I need to drink plenty of water as I drink caffeine to allow for hydration and for the caffeine to actually help you be more awake. I think if it becomes an addiction, perhaps it should be made aware by your attention.

I rambled too much and its 6:38am. I think ill nap.

Om Namah Shivaya

[Shuddhasattva]

Namaste

I would just like to add that use of cannabis is what brought me back to Hindu dharma. I was raised Hindu, and in my adolescence when reason and logic became more strongly developed, the simple faith of my childhood was scrutinized, along with everything else I found unreasonable in the world, and found wanting. I drifted away into weak panentheism/agnosticism.

Some years later, I had been legally prescribed cannabis for medical issues - which is why I started using it initially, though I found I also enjoyed the mental high very much. Thoughts would become much more vibrant, it was easier to 'think more deeply' "about life, the universe and everything," as well as recognize faults in my thinking, attitudes, behavior, etc., and make resolutions to change.

It was a period of great personal growth for me.

This, in of itself, would only have led into a good life marked by cycles of enjoyable, insightful in a limited fashion, if ultimately fruitless, mental speculations - though I hold this to be better than the common life devoid of philosophical/spiritual interest altogether.

However, one day, after I had been smoking for awhile, having built up a tolerance, a very unexpected thing happened - an altered state so strong I lost control of my body and passed out.

This occurred after smoking a relatively small amount of very potent cannabis. I had never passed out before, even after smoking large amounts of equally potent cannabis.

This happened because the effect this ganja had was radically different than effects I had experienced before - heightened mental powers, in the main, altered perception of the body - as Spiritualseeker put it, a feeling of subtle vibrations., etc.

What I experienced instead was my first mystical experience and still to this day one of the strongest I have experienced - it is not a usual effect of cannabis.

Having read up on this topic from a neuroscience/neuropsychology perspective as well, trying to understand what had occurred, and I believe what happened is that the phytocannabinoids, having crossed the blood-brain barrier, interacted with the CB1 receptors there - the cannabinoid receptors in the brain & nervous system govern the secretion and uptake of many other neurotransmitters and hormones. I believe what happened in this case, is that due to some matrix of factors, the cannabinoid system activated a large increase in the production of DMT by the pineal gland, and its uptake by the 5-HT receptors, along with other chemicals which modulate the effects thereof.

What resulted was something very similar to a 'near death experience' described in clinical literature often associated with research on the role of DMT.

I had just inhaled the cannabis vapor, and stood up. The motion of standing up probably caused a change in the amount of available blood & oxygen, causing this peculiar priming of the pineal in relation to the cannabinoid system (whether stimualted by endocannabinoids or phytocannabinoids) in way that might otherwise be caused by breathing practices and proper attention to bandha and mudra.

I was then rapidly overcome by the experience: I felt my consciousness and sense of personality implode inwards, and I was propelled into an internal tunnel down which I was 'speeding' - there was a sensation of great velocity.

The surface of this "tunnel" appeared coated with what looked like giant gems: huge faceted structures of various colors, growing out from the tunnel wall which they composed rather like fractals.

Each facet contained within it an experience from my life, and so while I was traveling down the tunnel, wherever I looked - and it seemed I could look many places simultaneously, where looking was akin to re-experiencing the event.

The facets/events were organized from the present time, going back, so as I traveled further down the tunnel, I was going backwards through my life, revisiting many experiences in perfect memory simultaneously.

And then after reaching the beginning ('end') of my life, it kept going - life, after life, after life. From the beginning, the mind had been reduced of its capacity to accept or reject the experiences, consciousness consisted of witnessing in a mood of awe and wonder.

Finally, the very 'end' was reached, or the beginning of the atman's projection into the material reality, and what I saw there made the feeling of any remaining tension, or struggle for meaning, evaporate; it was the funniest thing I had ever felt/seen, insofar as 'it' was even a 'thing,' it was a cosmic joke that by the grace of its humor and benevolence dispelled the pain of existence, redeeming it all. I then blacked out laughing. This experience of time - I don't know how much time, millions, billions of years was compressed into the period of me falling to my knees, and then onto the floor.

My friends who were there at the time, said that I had collapsed and had a seizure on the floor for about 10 seconds, before coming to and asking what had happened.

I remember little to nothing of the content of those experiences, and could tell you nothing of either my past lives or the 'cosmic joke' as a result, only the impressions it made on the residual mind commenting on the experiences like a crude level of recording overlaying the actual true memory.

I believe this occurred as a combination of my state of mind the previous several days before that, in a very inquisitive and open space, as well as the bodily factors.

After this experience, I was very much drawn back to Hindu dharma in a way I'd not been before - for reasons which I think are readily apparent. This led me into seeking a guru and reading the scriptures, neither of which contradicted my use of ganja.

Indeed, most of the yogis I have met since that time whom I consider accomplished are users of ganja. Not all of them, but most.

I think the scope of human history tells a very different tale than the modern, inculcated attitude of prohibition, regarding widespread human use of, and benefit from, cannabis. The fact of the cannabinoid receptor system suggests a long co-evolutionary relationship. It was one of the first plants to be influenced by human breeding, for instance.

My story and two cents.

Namaste

[Twilightdance]

My story and two cents.

Namaste

The story is worth more than that, thanks for sharing.

[charitra]

May it be 2012 BCE or 2012 ACE, may one wears saffron robes and recites vedas or not, a substance abuser is called as such and remains one until and unless one mends ones ways. No, anything doesn’t go with Hinduism, and one maynot try to hide behind a comforting religion and all. Granted they were not stoned in the past, it doesn’t mean they are accepted as role models either. None of the Brahmacharya, Grihastha, Vanaprastha, Sanyasa ashramas have allowed this practice :rolleyes: . No well respected hindu acharya or swami used/ uses any chemical substances. But whats my business here again? Since there are some teens on this forum it is prudent of you to scale back your stand and ease out. Namaste.

[Believer]

Namaste,

May it be 2012 BCE or 2012 ACE, may one wears saffron robes and recites vedas or not, a substance abuser is called as such and remains one until and unless one mends ones ways. No, anything doesn’t go with Hinduism, and one maynot try to hide behind a comforting religion and all. Granted they were not stoned in the past, it doesn’t mean they are accepted as role models either. None of the Brahmacharya, Grihastha, Vanaprastha, Sanyasa ashramas have allowed this practice :rolleyes: . No well respected hindu acharya or swami used/ uses any chemical substances. But whats my business here again? Since there are some teens on this forum it is prudent of you to scale back your stand and ease out. Namaste.
+1

First thing: Quit using Hinduism as a cover for your habit

Pranam.

[Spiritualseeker]

May it be 2012 BCE or 2012 ACE, may one wears saffron robes and recites vedas or not, a substance abuser is called as such and remains one until and unless one mends ones ways. No, anything doesn’t go with Hinduism, and one maynot try to hide behind a comforting religion and all. Granted they were not stoned in the past, it doesn’t mean they are accepted as role models either. None of the Brahmacharya, Grihastha, Vanaprastha, Sanyasa ashramas have allowed this practice :rolleyes: . No well respected hindu acharya or swami used/ uses any chemical substances. But whats my business here again? Since there are some teens on this forum it is prudent of you to scale back your stand and ease out. Namaste.

Namaste,

Charitra I am having difficulty understanding what you are saying. Firstly I want to say that Ganja is in no way similar to cocaine, meth, or any other of those types of drugs. Cannabis is only considered a drug due to the psychoactive compounds. It is also no way similar to Alcohol. So all this fuss about drugs are bad has no bearing on Ganja.

I could go into vast details about this, but I doubt anyone would care to understand each aspect of the plant and its flower. As mentioned earlier in the thread there is a co-evolutionary relationship between humans and cannabis. Cannabis existed before we even evolved as we are now. This is very fascinating and very auspicious. To consider it a drug as one would cocaine or other substances is in no way accurate and really just shows ones ignorance to the reality of what Cannabis is.

With that said you cannot take away from the fact that the Naga Sadhu lineage reveres Cannabis. Some worshipers of Kali revere Cannabis. The aghoris also use Cannabis.

It is very interesting to see how deep rooted the propaganda has affected people when it comes to understanding cannabis. We can thank the United States government for that. But its sad that it also causes Hindus to insult others for using Cannabis.

My Lord Shiva smokes Cannabis. If you think there is a greater saint then that who condemns it, then by all means quote them, but I will reside with my Lord. I have no problems with people not smoking Ganja. It doesnt matter to me, but I dislike to see people belittle others and think that only teenagers are interested in this. But regardless I cannot change anyones opinion nor is it my duty, all I can do is practice my way. I meditate without Ganja and I meditate with Ganja. If its a burden for you, then by all means do not try it, but for me it is Okay. Even Ramana Maharshi took Cannabis when offered by a student. But then again who is Ramana right?

Just my useless ramblings

Om Namah Shivaya

[Believer]

Namaste,

Do I have a deal for all the American weed smokers: If you stop using Hinduism as a cover for your habit, I will petition Obama to legalize it. ;)

Maybe, we can induct Bob Marley into the Hindu pantheon so that the ganja crowd will have a Hindu deity as a cover, but please don't associate Bhagwan Maheshji with this habit. Fair enough?

Pranam.

[Giza]

Namaste,

Charitra I am having difficulty understanding what you are saying. Firstly I want to say that Ganja is in no way similar to cocaine, meth, or any other of those types of drugs. Cannabis is only considered a drug due to the psychoactive compounds. It is also no way similar to Alcohol. So all this fuss about drugs are bad has no bearing on Ganja.

I could go into vast details about this, but I doubt anyone would care to understand each aspect of the plant and its flower. As mentioned earlier in the thread there is a co-evolutionary relationship between humans and cannabis. Cannabis existed before we even evolved as we are now. This is very fascinating and very auspicious. To consider it a drug as one would cocaine or other substances is in no way accurate and really just shows ones ignorance to the reality of what Cannabis is.

With that said you cannot take away from the fact that the Naga Sadhu lineage reveres Cannabis. Some worshipers of Kali revere Cannabis. The aghoris also use Cannabis.

It is very interesting to see how deep rooted the propaganda has affected people when it comes to understanding cannabis. We can thank the United States government for that. But its sad that it also causes Hindus to insult others for using Cannabis.

My Lord Shiva smokes Cannabis. If you think there is a greater saint then that who condemns it, then by all means quote them, but I will reside with my Lord. I have no problems with people not smoking Ganja. It doesnt matter to me, but I dislike to see people belittle others and think that only teenagers are interested in this. But regardless I cannot change anyones opinion nor is it my duty, all I can do is practice my way. I meditate without Ganja and I meditate with Ganja. If its a burden for you, then by all means do not try it, but for me it is Okay. Even Ramana Maharshi took Cannabis when offered by a student. But then again who is Ramana right?

Just my useless ramblings

Om Namah Shivaya

What you're saying is quite interesting. For my part, I won't rule out the use of ganja until/unless I find it ineffective. But, as I said, I've never smoked it, so I cannot draw any such conclusion at this time. I hope everyone will put their emotions aside for the purpose of this discussion, as emotion has always been a flimsy ground to support logic. I, for one, remain open. (But I'll have to try singing those bhajans as well! Thank you, ShivaFan.)

[Spiritualseeker]

Namaste,

Who has a habit? Which one of us here has a habit? Out of curiosity so we know who you are talking about my dear friend believer. As far as Obama, we already see his track record. None of these politicians care about you or I. But politics is a never ending dialogue.


Om Namah Shivaya

[Believer]

namaste,

As far as Obama, we already see his track record. None of these politicians care about you or I.
That is news to me.
The president is sworn to protect the constitution which guarantees us the pursuit of happiness. If our happiness lies in smoking weed, then he has to legalize it. That is his sworn duty. But let us do it in the name of the new Hindu deity Bob Marley, instead of anyone else.

Pranam.

[Spiritualseeker]

Namaste,

Bob Marley wasn't the only cannabis smoker. Your insults are funny though. I do not take you too serious so don't think I am offended. You are still my Dharma friend.


Om Namah Shivaya

[Giza]

Off topic, can anyone tell me why there is no sub-forum for Mantra under the Yoga forum?:headscratch:

[Believer]

Namaste,

Bob Marley wasn't the only cannabis smoker. Your insults are funny though. I do not take you too serious so don't think I am offended. You are still my Dharma friend.
We are more than Dharma friends, we are Dharma brothers. I apologize for the impression that I was throwing out insults. In my own twisted way, I am seriously asking for Bhagwan Maheshji to be left alone. If somebody does need to associate a ritual/ceremony/habit with divinity to justify using it themselves, I am asking for his favorite cannabis smoker to be elevated to the divine level to provide the association. Bob Marley was just a name I threw out. I know there are others and you have a choice. All I am asking again, as respectfully as I can, is to leave Bhagwan Shivji out of this association.

Pranam.

[Shuddhasattva]

From where has come the idea that Hinduism is being used to justify a habit? Is this a weapon of denigration?

[Eastern Mind]

Off topic, can anyone tell me why there is no sub-forum for Mantra under the Yoga forum?:headscratch:

Vannakkam Giza: I would suggest you ask this in the feedback section. Aum Namasivaya

[Spiritualseeker]

Namaste,


We are more than Dharma friends, we are Dharma brothers. I apologize for the impression that I was throwing out insults. In my own twisted way, I am seriously asking for Bhagwan Maheshji to be left alone. If somebody does need to associate a ritual/ceremony/habit with divinity to justify using it themselves, I am asking for his favorite cannabis smoker to be elevated to the divine level to provide the association. Bob Marley was just a name I threw out. I know there are others and you have a choice. All I am asking again, as respectfully as I can, is to leave Bhagwan Shivji out of this association.

Pranam.Thank you Dharma brother. Once again though it seems that there is a negative association with Cannabis when we speak about it. No one is saying Lord Shiva is Smoking Ganja with baggy jeans and a gun on his hip. It is used in spiritual discipline. I can only speak for myself, but I can go for months without Ganja. But I am not asking anyone to call me a Hindu. As a matter of fact many Hindus will not accept me, because of my skin color. They would suggest to me to stay in the religion I was born into, which I feel is quite absurd. So I do not call myself a Hindu, due to this, so perhaps that releases some tension concerning this issue. In other words I do not go around masquerading as a Hindu, because I am simply not accepted, but regardless I attempt to practice the teaching, because I feel this is my way.

Ganja is a sacrament and no one can deny this. It is to be used with disciplined if used at all. Ganesh Baba would ask his students that if they smoke Ganja they need to keep their backs straight and take the name of Shiva. This was his requirement of his students when they smoked cannabis. He was known to consume large amounts of Cannabis and yet appear as if unaffected at all. This is the discipline. I have the understanding that everything that comes and goes cannot be the truth, but there are pointers to the truth. I remember one time smoking with a companion. Suddenly I had a realization that I was that person and that i was looking from another place. This experience left me, so it is only temporary and this is duly noted, but the point is pointers occur. Just like when doing breathing practices. Breathing practices can place you in an altered state of consciousness. Even sadness is an altered state of consciousness. These are not the natural state of consciousness. So our lives are like this and we miss the ever so simple truth of I am. Tools such as the Mala beads, the Murti, pranayama, Ganja, and other tools are just supports along the way. The actual goal of any practice is just to realize who we have always been. If we get attached to the beads we may miss the point. I remember experiencing this before. I forgot my wrist mala at home and when I was at work I felt that I was unable to stay focus on saying the name of Shiva, but in reality it was just revealing my attachment to the beads. One can keep the name of Shiva without wooden beads on a string. So with anything you have to watch out for attachment.

I do not think anyone here is suggesting that Shiva is a low life lazy bum. Quite the contrary, when Shiva is intoxicated with Ganja he is in a sober state of seeing things as they are. When one feels anxious and recites a mantra to push away their anxiety, they are trying to get rid of a feeling and do not have the right state of mind when practicing. It is better to feel the anxiety fully (without indulging in the thoughts around it). Ganja should not be used to get rid of problems. Also like I mentioned before sometimes when you Smoke Ganja you may experience that you start to see all the things that are bothering you. This is not always so happy and fun as a lot of people suggest. Sometimes you have to feel whatever emotions come up and deal with them. I have seen non-hindus non-religious people smoking cannabis and suddenly they start speaking about how the mind is an illusion. This is very enlightening for one who is mainly materialistic. It is simply a tool. I am not asking anyone to throw a party and drink liquor, have sex with strangers, and smoke ganja. I am not even asking people to smoke Ganja to meditate or do japa. I am simply showing my point of view. It can be accepted or rejected. I am nothing but words on an internet forum. What substance do I really have? So it makes no difference to me, but I feel that there needs to be made evident the difference between getting a group of friendly women to smoke ganja with you and have orgies and one that smokes Ganja in their sadhana.

http://www.chillums.net/wp-content/uploads/2011/05/Sadhu-Chillum_pipe-Demographics_of_India-Religious_and_spiritual_use_of_cannabis-Smoking-image.jpg
I do not think the Sadhu above is going to a disco or looking to have orgies. Discipline. For those with an open mind that want to learn more about Ganja I suggest studying what Ganja does and how our bodies are wired to accept Ganja and mainly THC in the body. As was already mentioned this mysterious plant has co-evolved with humans to form this intimate relationship.

Om Namah Shivaya

[Believer]

Namaste,

If you are a native Hindu, sensitive to ethnic jokes, please skip this post.
I apologize in advance for writing it, but it is part of the narrative and I don't mean to disparage any ethnic group.

Recently I heard an Indian standup comedian, as part of his schtick, deliver a line that Indian people can be associated with 3 D's:If you are from the South, you are Dark, if you from Gujrat, you are Dirt cheap, and if you are from the North, you are Drunk. The only reason I repeat this line is to bring out the fact that in India, Northerners, who imbibe more intoxicants than people of other areas, are the only ones to support this myth of the association of Lord Shiva with weed. All the 'Babas' and their 'akharas' thrive only in the North. So, only the Shiv-pujaris of North India need weed to focus and achieve that higher state of consciousness. Shiv pujaris from the rest of India do fine without it. Also, Ram bkaktas and Krishna bhaktas and Shakti followers are fine with their sadhana without any aids?

If slowing down mental activity is what is termed as higher consciousness, then, may I be bold enough to question why alcohol is bad, if it serves the same purpose. Some of the tantaric traditions stress the use of sex as a tool. During orgasm, all the blood drains out of your brains and one feels that thoughtless state which is considered the moment of bliss and connecting to gods. OMG, is that what spirituality is?

Hinduism is a vast ocean with millions of unstructured/uncontrolled traditions, many of which are off-nominal and practiced by fringe groups. Why hang your spirituality hat on a fringe group's pole? If someone feels that weed gives them focus, why bring it to the Hindu forum? Why not discuss it in the canteen section rather than in the SD section? Why have these Babas as the cheerleaders? Above all, why associate Hindu divinity with this human need/desire. And if you must, why frown upon alcohol and sex used for one's sadhana?

I am sure many of my dharmic brothers see things differently. And that is fine. I just felt compelled to request everyone to not look down upon me, should I choose to use alcohol and sexual promiscuity as means to get to that elusive 'higher consciousness'. Don't try to take my crutches off the table, or be judgemental about them.

Pranam.

[Eastern Mind]

Vannakkam: Just to confirm, reiterate, or add to what B said, in my 6 weeks or so of travel in TN, and Karnataka, I never once smelled the sweet scent of bhang. I was in a lot of crowded places too.

Aum Namasivaya

[Shuddhasattva]

Namaste


Northerners, who imbibe more intoxicants than people of other areas, are the only ones to support this myth of the association of Lord Shiva with weed.
True enough, but the North has no monopoly on cannabis. Some of the best landraces (traditionally cultivated strains, unique to certain areas, rather than modern hybrids) come from South India.



All the 'Babas' and their 'akharas' thrive only in the North.
The South has its own breeds of ganja-smoking Babas.


So, only the Shiv-pujaris of North India need weed to focus and achieve that higher state of consciousness. Shiv pujaris from the rest of India do fine without it.It's not so much as need for, but a use of. And yes, one can do fine without it, even if one does use it. Though the use is overwhelmingly more common in the North, it is not at all unknown in the South.


Also, Ram bkaktas and Krishna bhaktas and Shakti followers are fine with their sadhana without any aids?I don't believe this is accurate. Of the two sadhus I am most familiar with, one is a Maharashtran varkari, the other is a Nepali Ram bhakta, and they both smoke.


If slowing down mental activity is what is termed as higher consciousness, then, may I be bold enough to question why alcohol is bad, if it serves the same purpose.Cannabis, depending on the subspecies (indica, generally slowing, and sativa, generally speeding), and user's mentality and current state, can either speed the mind, or slow it, either positively or negatively in both contexts. The mind can become dull and slow, if infatuated with material musings and attachments, or slow and quiet, paving the way for samadhi. It can become anxious and overactive, whirling the mind around in confusion, or it can become vigorous and accomplishing in dhyan.

The effects of cannabis are completely different from that of alcohol. Also, alcohol is not necessarily bad. The shaktas and shaivas, and even some vaishnava "a"sampradays use it in their sadhanas at times, and not just the vamacara crowd, which mostly these days, is not even the real cinacara but a perversity justifying itself with misinterpreted sandhya bhash.

Yes, the panchamakara, like its mirror the panchamrita, is symbolic. But why are these symbols chosen? Because they are evocative of important aspects of human life, and all aspects of human life, regardless of the imposition of Victorian moralities, are to be purified and subsumed in the divine.

One should pray for one's next rebirth to be in the womb of a woman who unites with her husband in worship of God, and whose husband likewise upholds the ragadharma and viragadharma in equal measure. It is an auspicious birth.

Should one uphold worship in every area of one's life but the sexual? Is this really a complete worship?


Some of the tantaric traditions stress the use of sex as a tool. During orgasm, all the blood drains out of your brains and one feels that thoughtless state which is considered the moment of bliss and connecting to gods. This is not accurate. The blood does not drain out of the brain, in fact bloodflow to the brain can be stimulated, as well as different brainwaves. The lassitude that accompanies orgasm is mostly an effect of a massive release of oxytocin, which is also known as the bonding hormone functioning between parentsand children, especially mothers (stimulated through breastfeeding, although interestingly, fathers are also anatomically capable of breastfeeding, with probably the same result).

The vast majority of tantric sex techniques (I do not like using this phrase, as it feeds into mistaken neo-tantric conceptions of what exactly the agama shastra consists of, but nonetheless it is appropriate in this context) are not ones that sanction orgasm at all, but the conservation of semen (or the 'female seed') and its sublimation into tejas - urdhavretas, the same goal of brahmacharis everywhere.

The idea is not to get entrapped in the transient experience of this transcendental, sadhanic sexual encounter (whether grossly physical, or subtle dhyan) or that reverential substance administration, but to carry the core of these experiences throughout one's life, anointing the triple world with them 24/7.


OMG, is that what spirituality is?Yes, amongst other things.



Hinduism is a vast ocean with millions of unstructured/uncontrolled traditions, many of which are off-nominal and practiced by fringe groups.
Why hang your spirituality hat on a fringe group's pole?Because sometimes those not on the fringes can't see the forest for the trees, regardless of how their detractors seek to style them by conflating the number of adherents with the truth of doctrine, as if universal truths are governed by mass appeal.


If someone feels that weed gives them focus, why bring it to the Hindu forum?
Why not discuss it in the canteen section rather than in the SD section? Because it's part of the scriptural, medical and living traditions of Hinduism.

Let me put it to you differently. If someone feels that a vast number of hindus aren't actual hindus, because of their Northern status or somesuch, and that their babas, pujaris, pandits, sampradayas, paramparas and akharas are false, why bring it to a Hindu forum?


Why have these Babas as the cheerleaders? Above all, why associate Hindu divinity with this human need/desire. And if you must, why frown upon alcohol and sex used for one's sadhana?
Desire is the root of the universe. From the universe, the devas are made manifest along with the jivatmans. Are we now to deny that kama, or rati, are gods? Do we deny the vast host of devas, high and low, associated with sexuality and desire, though the fruit of their upasana is the eradication of all cyclical and incomplete forms of desire?

I do not suggest that alcohol and sex be frowned upon either, in the appropriate context of sadhana.



I am sure many of my dharmic brothers see things differently. And that is fine. I just felt compelled to request everyone to not look down upon me, should I choose to use alcohol and sexual promiscuity as means to get to that elusive 'higher consciousness'. Don't try to take my crutches off the table, or be judgemental about them.
Neither shall I attempt to take your keyboard off your desk, your job from your life, your house from over your head, and force you into a renunciation complete enough to, without any trace of hypocrisy, decry the use of all external aids in the fourfold path of life.


Namaste

[Shanti29]

Close this thread. It is an insult to Mahadev to use him as as excuse for your vile habit. He is a divine paradox; the great celibate and fertile, the cosmic dancer and the meditator, the giver of boons and the great ascetic, the destroyer and the recreator. You lack control and seek only instant gratification. Your posts are so long winded. Who are you trying to convince? Many young people are finding their way to Hinduism, I would hate for them to be led astray this nonsense.

[Shuddhasattva]

He is a divine paradox; the great celibate and fertile, the cosmic dancer and the meditator, the giver of boons and the great ascetic, the destroyer and the recreator.

Beautiful. But not the intoxicated and the sober?


You lack control and seek only instant gratification. Your posts are so long winded. Who are you trying to convince? Many young people are finding their way to Hinduism, I would hate for them to be led astray this nonsense.

I will bow to your arguments if you can give just one shruti verse that decries ganja or those who use it. Not alcohol, nothing ambiguous.

[Mana]

हरिः ओम्


Namaste Giza,


Your post has touched my heart, I have at times said to myself that prison would be arguably the best place for me.
I have a strongly visual memory, I need to see things fully in order to memorise them, this mean that the normal
ways of Western studys and exams are really not practical for me at all.
Another "symptom" of this visual memory is extremely high emotional reactivity; which translates as hypersensitivity.
I also feel prana in the body and am aware of its preasance in others, I go slow on speaking of this as most think that
I have been taking drugs or that I am crazy if I do, but basically I have a very emotive memory.
As if the emotion welds the memory in to my vision of the understanding of something. (This is said to be ultimately
longer for memorisation but once memorised 8 times more efficient, dhyAna helps direct the memory process and
guide the path).

I currently hold no real qualifications and find day to day living quite tricky at times.

Thus the thought that prison rather than being abused by the overly competitive people about me, whilst I study,
could have been an option (I no longer think like this).

Spiritual practis is my bread and butter for dealing with this in a meaningful way, to live and function in society,
I am even now managing to take some more direction in my studies. Strangely, mAyA leads those around me to
think that I am a high flyer. They just do not see the same world.

If you look into Kashmir Shavism, you will find that it differs somewhat from Advaita and Hinduism in regards
to Karma yoga.

Karma yoga is seen as living within your state of meditation, all day, in daily life. As you interact with the world
about you, you may find that your prana is related to time universally in ways which are most profound.

It is my feeling that you may benefit greatly from this practis, if you are as sensitive to your body as you have said.
It will be of much greater benefit to you on your path, than any more time spent in prison.

I hope that these words are of meaning and value to you, I just kind of thought they might resonate with you, not
to worry if they don't.


praṇāma

mana


ॐ नमः शिवाय
Aum Namaḥ Śivāya

[Giza]

हरिः ओम्


Namaste Giza,


Your post has touched my heart, I have at times said to myself that prison would be arguably the best place for me.
I have a strongly visual memory, I need to see things fully in order to memorise them, this mean that the normal
ways of Western studys and exams are really not practical for me at all.
Another "symptom" of this visual memory is extremely high emotional reactivity; which translates as hypersensitivity.
I also feel prana in the body and am aware of its preasance in others, I go slow on speaking of this as most think that
I have been taking drugs or that I am crazy if I do, but basically I have a very emotive memory.
As if the emotion welds the memory in to my vision of the understanding of something. (This is said to be ultimately
longer for memorisation but once memorised 8 times more efficient, dhyAna helps direct the memory process and
guide the path).

I currently hold no real qualifications and find day to day living quite tricky at times.

Thus the thought that prison rather than being abused by the overly competitive people about me, whilst I study,
could have been an option (I no longer think like this).

Spiritual practis is my bread and butter for dealing with this in a meaningful way, to live and function in society,
I am even now managing to take some more direction in my studies. Strangely, mAyA leads those around me to
think that I am a high flyer. They just do not see the same world.

If you look into Kashmir Shavism, you will find that it differs somewhat from Advaita and Hinduism in regards
to Karma yoga.

Karma yoga is seen as living within your state of meditation, all day, in daily life. As you interact with the world
about you, you may find that your prana is related to time universally in ways which are most profound.

It is my feeling that you may benefit greatly from this practis, if you are as sensitive to your body as you have said.
It will be of much greater benefit to you on your path, than any more time spent in prison.

I hope that these words are of meaning and value to you, I just kind of thought they might resonate with you, not
to worry if they don't.


praṇāma

mana


ॐ नमः शिवाय
Aum Namaḥ Śivāya

Very interesting. But in jail there is certainly no lessening in "overly competitive people" around you while you study. You are wise not to think this way anymore. In fact, jail is very violent, at least here in California; and if you cannot hold your own, if you yourself are not violent in some ways, they will have you for breakfast. It is also VERY loud, all day, every day. But it's not impossible to get used to it. I often had to use intimidation - psychological violence - to keep myself from being drawn into physical violence. But once I became known as someone to fear, they left me to my sadhana. Eventually you can learn to stop hearing the noise. It's always there, a lot like living under a raging waterfall, but your own mind becomes quiet. Also, if you happen to be Caucasian like I am, you should know that about 90% of whites in the jails I've been in have been sex offenders. Sex offenders are really not very well liked in jail (understatement of the year). You would naturally be a target. But I never got into a fight, in 6 years, so it's possible not to. (of course, everyone knew about my manslaughter charge because it was very high profile, which may have helped project the, "Nah brah, that white boy's crazy. You gonna get hurt brah. Leave him alone." attitude onto the way people saw me.)

I sympathize with your problems, but I'm glad you don't think of jail unrealistically anymore (although it may be different elsewhere). The only good thing it gave me was hours and hours and hours and hours and hours of free time to meditate, read Hindu scriptures (when I could get the books mailed to me), and exercise.

The idea that, "Karma yoga is seen as living within your state of meditation, all day, in daily life." does indeed resonate with me, as I tried to maintain that state even in jail, with decent success. I was a painter in there. On hot days I would try to send all of my concentration to my Vishuddha chakra, even while painting at work, and was able to cool off that way.

My experience has taught me that Pratyahara is a condition of the mind as well as the body. When my concentration deepened on the single goal of developing my chakras, suddenly everything that had previously bothered me was unable to "stick" in my mind anymore. (Something like Arjuna at Drona's archery challenge.)

Thank you for your words of wisdom, Mana.:)

[Spiritualseeker]

Namaste,


Vannakkam: Just to confirm, reiterate, or add to what B said, in my 6 weeks or so of travel in TN, and Karnataka, I never once smelled the sweet scent of bhang. I was in a lot of crowded places too.

I still do not think that this means Cannabis does not have a place in Sanatana Dharma. There are many other places in India you can go and have Bhang or smoke from a chillum.




If slowing down mental activity is what is termed as higher consciousness, then, may I be bold enough to question why alcohol is bad, if it serves the same purpose. Some of the tantaric traditions stress the use of sex as a tool. During orgasm, all the blood drains out of your brains and one feels that thoughtless state which is considered the moment of bliss and connecting to gods. OMG, is that what spirituality is?

With all due respect, these are very weak arguments. Why cant you just accept that there are differences. Much of your post wreaks of sectarianism of what you feel is 'true' Hinduism. Malas help us calm the mind, should we now break them and throw them away, because they are something "outside" or "material"?


Hinduism is a vast ocean with millions of unstructured/uncontrolled traditions, many of which are off-nominal and practiced by fringe groups. Why hang your spirituality hat on a fringe group's pole? If someone feels that weed gives them focus, why bring it to the Hindu forum? Why not discuss it in the canteen section rather than in the SD section? Why have these Babas as the cheerleaders? Above all, why associate Hindu divinity with this human need/desire. And if you must, why frown upon alcohol and sex used for one's sadhana?

Why not discuss it on Hindudharmaforums? This forum is not ran by Nazis. It is a very nice forum to come to where many people can exchange their views. Why shut out our views? Shiva has much to do with Ganja. This is a well known fact. If you want to follow a tradition that does not accept Ganja, then by all means do so. But our tradition uses Ganja. If you want to think we are 'addicts' or have vile 'habits' then leave us to what you think of us. From my perspective I see you as being judgmental while we who smoke Ganja are accepting that you have your views, but we also have ours. We are not forcing our beliefs on anyone, we are simply clarifying our position, because we are being judged by others and considered to be basically 'western non-hindus' you just have been nice enough to disguise this phrase with your softer insults.


Why have these Babas as the cheerleaders?

You will insult a Sadhu it is no wonder that you would also insult us.


I am sure many of my dharmic brothers see things differently. And that is fine. I just felt compelled to request everyone to not look down upon me, should I choose to use alcohol and sexual promiscuity as means to get to that elusive 'higher consciousness'. Don't try to take my crutches off the table, or be judgemental about them.

Ganja has nothing to do with alcohol or sexual promiscuity. So I do not understand where you are going with this. No one is saying that one needs to have Ganja to attain enlightenment. Its a tool along with many others.


Close this thread. It is an insult to Mahadev to use him as as excuse for your vile habit. He is a divine paradox; the great celibate and fertile, the cosmic dancer and the meditator, the giver of boons and the great ascetic, the destroyer and the recreator. You lack control and seek only instant gratification. Your posts are so long winded. Who are you trying to convince? Many young people are finding their way to Hinduism, I would hate for them to be led astray this nonsense.

Uncle Sam would be proud to see what he has done to the minds of westerners and non-western hindus. After all is this not what Uncle Sam wants?

To say that Ganja has no basis in Hinduism is absurd. India is the birthplace of Ganja.

Outside of Hinduism it is the same for me, because my ancestors smoked Ganja and I will continue to smoke Ganja. If someone doesn't like that I will simply put my hands together and offer them peace. So please do not make war on us for using Ganja.

Om Namah Shivaya

[Giza]

Finally Arjuna was called. When he was ready to shoot and was standing with his bow drawn in a semicircle, Drona said, "Tell me what you see. Can you see myself, your brothers, and the tree?"

Arjuna replied, "I see only the bird. I cannot see you or my brothers, nor the tree."

Drona was pleased. He waited a moment and asked, ""If you see the bird, please describe it too me."

Arjuna responded, "I see only the birds head. I cannot see its body."

Drona's hair stood on end. He said, "Shoot!".


Such is the power of true concentration that it may block out our sensory perceptions (inducing Pratyahara). If you haven't read this by the way, naturally he hits the wooden bird's eye, right on target.:)

[Mana]

हरिः ओम्


Namaste All,


It is worth noting that Hemp is excellent for making rope, possessing one of natures strongest fibres, even if for no other reason;
humans and our history are bound to this plant. It does have a reputation for triggering psychosis.

As well as obvious medical uses, for which it is prescribed in many countries.

What does this have to do with pursuing ones path, even if it makes you realised, one must sill actually get up and function in
order to work. No one ever furthered any path by sitting around stoned all day, and I'm not so sure that it is really very good
for upholding dharma.

I wonder if Parvarti would come looking for Siva if he if he is smoking refer all day long. If she did as to whether he would really
notice her.

Yet, each to their own I say.

praṇāma

mana


ॐ नमः शिवाय
Aum Namaḥ Śivāya

[Spiritualseeker]

Namaste,

I understand where you are coming from Mana, but who is saying to sit around and be stoned all day? See all these negative views on Cannabis comes back to the same old excuses we were taught by the west to hate cannabis. We were told that you will be lazy etc.. As Joe Rogan says the people who are lazy are going to smoke cannabis and still be lazy. Its just the way it is. There are many people who have very respected jobs that smoke cannabis throughout the day. Just get to know people around you. It is not hard to find Cannabis smokers in America. Not all of them are lazy bums. Yes I have met some that smoked cannabis and do not have jobs, but that is their life. I smoke ganja and I go to school (I am about to graduate with a Bachelors degree in Alternative medicine), I also work as a supervisor at a company, I am a husband, and I train in ninjutsu. This is not laziness.

In one of the stories Parvati actually bring Shiva Cannabis. Smoking ganja doesnt have to be just sitting around being lazy. Do not let someones bad habits make you think that this is what ganja does to you.

Once again no one is saying one needs to consume Ganja to be enlightened.

Om Namah Shivaya

[Shanti29]

I won't waste anymore time here. No one is giving me a straight answer, must be the effect of those drugs.

[Spiritualseeker]

I won't waste anymore time here. No one is giving me a straight answer, must be the effect of those drugs.


Please google Cannabis or Ganja. Read a book on it at your local bookstore. Go on youtube. Find some way of getting information on it, because it seems like you are confusing Ganja with some type of synthetic drug. This is very common for people who have no clue what Ganja really is. They just bark the same obscenities against it that Ronald Reagan did.


Om Namah Shivaya

[Shuddhasattva]

A straight answer to which question? Oh, that's right. You didn't bother to ask any, just assumed you knew enough to condemn without question.

[Believer]

Namaste,

Thank you my dharmic brothers on the other side of the fence, for educating me, for enabling me to look at things from a different perspective, and above all for letting me know that I sound very judgemental and that this is the right place to discuss these complex issues.

This can had enough worms to make a fisherman happy for a whole fishing season. ;)

Pranam.

[Seeker]

Hello everyone, I was hoping some of you might share your experiences/opinions regarding drug use as it actually facilitates the practice of any type of yoga.

For example (an example many of you will probably agree on) I find that drinking coffee helps to increase my ability to concentrate during meditation. Every time I've experienced Dhyana - the second stage of meditation as defined by Patanjali - I had previously been drinking coffee. Additionally, though I don't know what chemicals it has in it, when I eat enough celery I find my third eye is stimulated, as well as muladhara chakra.
I've never smoked weed while in meditation, but I know that is common both here in America and in India; can any of you who have tell me if indica or sativa is better?

Please share your experiences.

Namaste Giza Ji,

These experiences may vary from person to person , and many in this forum might have never tried cannabis - that includes me. Hence lots of response may be from bookish knowledge of moral inclinations.

But I can comment on your coffee observation. For me , it had the opposite effect. I used to drink 6-8 cups of coffee everyday , but now I have limited to 1 cup , with an intention to cut it down in a year. Coffee being a stimulant , i found that it was difficult to calm the mind when I was primed with caffeine.

Apparently you had the opposite effect. Cannabis might have similar opposing effects on people.

[Vasa]

I won't waste anymore time here. No one is giving me a straight answer, must be the effect of those drugs.

Namaste,

Not to reopen this "can of worms" but Shuddasattvaji specifically asked for someone to point to any scriptural reference decrying the use of this herb, and so far I have not seen it. I am neither lauding or decrying the use of said herb but it seems that the burden of proof is on those decrying it. If there is another thread revealing this scriptural evidence please link it here.

[Shanti29]

Why reopen the issue if u claim to take neither side? Don't quote me. I already said I would not waste anymore time on this matter.


Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law. - Aleister Crowley
Some of you might enjoy Crowley's teachings.

[Vasa]

Namaste.
I take whatever side the scriptures are on. I didn't mean to offend you by quoting you, but since you were one of the people calling foul it made sense to quote you. I have seen many debates (vegetarianism for example) on this forum and in most instances there is a scriptural basis.

I have seen a lot of debate on this issue but I have yet to see a scriptural basis, for either view. I am interested to see if either side can support their claims, but again, the burden of proof lies with the people who call it "a vile habit" and quote irrelevant things as a thinly veiled and not very effective insult to others.

[Shanti29]

*Sigh* And yet you still quote me. It wasn't a thinly veiled insult and I won't apologise if you see it that way. It was a friendly bit of advice and it remains, do as thou wilt.
I don't see the need for you to try to insist on a debate with someone. What is it a need to win or a sense of superiority?
These things don't interest me. I have already said my part. I rarely engage in discussions and I won't make an exception for your ego.

[Vasa]

Nobody is asking you to debate, I could care less if you or someone else provided scriptural evidence, for either view. I just want to see the evidence. Personally I don't smoke the stuff, but I also don't project that view onto everyone else as if I am some kind of spiritual authority without any basis, or the ability to provide evidence when my view is scrutinized.

Also, I didn't take it as an insult but you were Implying that people who don't believe exactly as you do are less-than Hindu. There is no other logical reason to make such a statement, since it is entirely irrelevant to the topic. You can deny it all you want, but the fact that you continue to respond even after saying several times "I'm done with this discussion" shows the real ego.