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Elizabeth108
23 June 2012, 05:11 PM
Is Buddhism theistic or atheistic? Can you backup your view?

Spiritualseeker
23 June 2012, 05:32 PM
Namaste,

I would say Buddhism is neither Theistic nor atheistic.

Buddhism accepts that there are multiple gods and devas. They do not worship them. The Buddha says: Verily, there is an Unborn, Unoriginated, Uncreated, Unformed. If there were not this Unborn, Unoriginated, Uncreated, Unformed, escape from the world of the born, the originated, the created, the formed, would not be possible"

This is God.

Om Namah Shivaya

Shuddhasattva
23 June 2012, 05:57 PM
Namaste

Depends on the variety of Buddhism.

Vajrayana Buddhism is transtheistic/thesistic.

Transtheism has varying definitions. I like Paul Tillich's "the ground of being." His basic point is that God is beyond the question of existence or non-existence, being or non-being, and is the very power of being that being and becoming possible.


"Existence - Existence refers to what is finite and fallen and cut of from its true being. Within the finite realm issues of conflict between, for example, autonomy (Greek: 'autos' - self, 'nomos' - law) and heteronomy (Greek: 'heteros' - other, 'nomos' - law) abound (there are also conflicts between the formal/emotional and static/dynamic). Resolution of these conflicts lies in the essential realm (the Ground of Meaning/the Ground of Being) which humans are cut off from yet also dependent upon ('In existence man is that finite being who is aware both of his belonging to and separation from the infinite' (Newport p.67f)). Therefore existence is estrangement."That said, Vajrayana Buddhism upholds an infinite, eternal, unthinkable, ineffable reality that is the source, and final destination, of all provisional constructs falsely construed as reality by the mind bound in assumptions of concrete, reified existence.

Moreover, vajrayana is philosophically identical, or nearly identical to the mahayana. The difference is means of practice, and those means consist of the deity and guru yoga.

The deities are directly drawn from the Hindu deities though there are of course differences in iconography, practice, etc., the essence is identical.

These deities nominated as supreme have all the attributes of saguna brahman. Yet they are the form of the void, manifestations of the attributeless, transcending the attributes, the attributeless, and the attributer.


Buddha taught 3, some say 4, turnings of the wheel. The first was the nikayas, the basic doctrine of personal discipline in ethics and meditation leading to personal liberation. The second expanded deeply on the concept of pratityasamutpada ("dependent origination" - ie, how transient causes generate transient effects, ad infinitum, with no trace of the eternal to be found in the play of maya) into the fullblown doctrine of shunyata (emptiness, which was only briefly covered in the nikayas and mostly in a psycho-emotional context). This emptiness is stated explicitly to be pure consciousness. In otherwords, nirguna brahman.

In the third turning of the wheel, the tathagatagarbha sutras taught a doctrine of an eternal self-nature, indistinguishable from the void, or the self-natures of all beings as a single nature.

For 'backing it up,' you're going to have to do some legwork and reading, may I suggest:

Mother of the Buddhas - Lex Hixon, abridged (but excellent, truly excellent) translation of the 8,000 line Prajnaparamita sutra (there are many prajnaparamita sutras, this is generally considered by scholars to be the original.)
Tathagatagarbha sutras
-Lankavatara
-Mahayana Mahaparinirvana (in which the Buddha talks about, amongst other things, the Satya-Atman, and its identical nature with the Void. He talks as well of the eternal, stainless dharmakaya (transcendental, eternal body of the Buddhas))
Uttara Shastra - Discusses yogacara madhyamaka, an emptiness philosophy replete with fullness.
The Essence of Zhentong - Jetsun Taranatha, zhentong is a Tibetan philosophy fusing tathagatagarbha and prajnaparamita teachings; an emptiness empty of all but the True Self, itself a complete emptiness.
Sovereign All-Creating Mind - Translation of Sarva Dharma Mahahanti Bodhichitta Kulaya Raja, a part of the Semsde (mind-cycle) tantras of the nyingma (ancient school).The 4th turning is said to consist of the Vajrakaya teachings.


Namaste

wundermonk
24 June 2012, 02:31 AM
Is Buddhism theistic or atheistic? Can you backup your view?

Buddha was agnostic. He forbade his followers from speculating emptily on the origin of the universe, whether God exists or not, whether the self exists or not, etc. He said all such speculation is futile and would ultimately lead to vexation and madness.

Regarding Buddhism, I am not so sure. Buddhism, just like Hinduism, diversified after the Buddha into a heady concoction of differing and sometimes contradictory beliefs...some believe in reincarnation, some do not, some are realists, some are idealists, etc., etc.

shiv.somashekhar
25 June 2012, 02:00 AM
Is Buddhism theistic or atheistic? Can you backup your view?

Depends on how one defines theism and atheism. The term atheism does not have a clearcut meaning and contradicting views exist.

From an Indian view, the term nastika (non-believer) can mean one of the following -

1. non-believer in God [Gita]
2. non-believer in other worlds [Panini]
3. non-believer in the Veda [Manu Smriti]

Based on the third definition, Buddhism and Jainism have sometimes been categorized as nastika systems by orthodox Hindus.

jih elt
25 June 2012, 06:17 PM
I have recently come along a good paper about the exact topic you are investigating:

http://alanwallace.org/Is%20Buddhism%20Really%20Nontheistic_.pdf

The link above will open up a pdf. I could not find the original website which has this linked.

shian
26 June 2012, 01:34 AM
is according to which Guru (lineage or school) you follow
off course some lineage of Buddhism is also use Veda's teachings
anyway,
all Buddhist sect cosmology and demigods name in their scripture is originaly from Hindu cosmology and deities.

Some Buddhist is claim they are not believe in God and Deva is not God.

But some Buddhist (like me) is believe in God
but all Buddhist not believe in one point of creation, i think many Hindu also not believe creation is from one point,
creation is a proces like a cycle, create - preserver - destroy , no beggining and no end
this process is doesnt mean not believe in creation

Mahayana - Tantric Tripitaka have The Sutra of Causal Ground of Shiva
The Sutra of 12 Devas etc
these sutra is proof that Buddhism also believe Buddha (The highest consciousnes) is manifest in form of Devas to do creation - preserver and destruction, Buddha also manifest in many form of Buddha and Bodhisattva to teach different sentient beings .

Mahayana also believe Buddha also appear in form of Shiva etc to teach sentient beings
so myself as Buddhist, dont have any problem to said that i am proud to be Hindu. And i everyday is doing puja to Lord Shiva, Ganesh, Sarasvati etc

How about Buddha refuse some peoples who always ask for creation etc,
yes offcourse that is also appear in our text !
But we know Buddha is teach different peoples in different way (according to their state etc) ,
but Buddha have explained about creation , cosmology etc to another student.
Not all diseases you can cure only with one influenza medicine ;)

savithru
30 December 2012, 12:35 AM
Is Buddhism theistic or atheistic? Can you backup your view?

The Vajrayana tradition do take the existence of deities very seriously and they should be considered in an emanation sense.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Padmasambhava

Padmasambhava said:

My father is the intrinsic awareness, Samantabhadra (Sanskrit; Tib. ཀུན་ཏུ་བཟང་པོ). My mother is the ultimate sphere of reality, Samantabhadri (Sanskrit; Tib. ཀུན་ཏུ་བཟང་མོ). I belong to the caste of non-duality of the sphere of awareness. My name is the Glorious Lotus-Born. I am from the unborn sphere of all phenomena. I act in the way of the Buddhas of the three times.


http://www.rigpawiki.org/index.php?title=Hundred_peaceful_and_wrathful_deities

Jetavan
30 December 2012, 04:57 PM
Is Buddhism theistic or atheistic? Can you backup your view?
Please define the "theos" referred to in "theism" and "atheism".

rainycity
09 August 2013, 12:04 AM
Namaste,

I would say Buddhism is neither Theistic nor atheistic.

Buddhism accepts that there are multiple gods and devas. They do not worship them. The Buddha says: Verily, there is an Unborn, Unoriginated, Uncreated, Unformed. If there were not this Unborn, Unoriginated, Uncreated, Unformed, escape from the world of the born, the originated, the created, the formed, would not be possible"

This is God.

Om Namah Shivaya

Buddha is not referring to God here

Necromancer
09 August 2013, 03:39 AM
Is Buddhism theistic or atheistic? Can you backup your view?
Namaste.

Okay, I shall support the 14 month necro-bump of this topic (if you should ever return to read this) just to give my totally unsupported views. ;)

For many years, I believed that Buddhism was 'Atheistic' because Lord Buddha is not a 'God' per se.

He is only a sage...and 'Enlightened One'...a teacher.

Many Buddhists pray to Buddha, but what's that all about? are they really worshiping their 'God' when they do that?

Up until very recently, I thought that Buddhism was just like Advaita Vedanta, without a 'God' but with a 'Goal'...Nibbana (Nirvana), Satori, 24/7 'Mindfulness', Samadhi, 'Self-Realisation'...'union with Brahman' or whatever anybody wants to call that experience.

The problem I am having in my Sadhana, is that I am totally stuck making the distinction between God (Lord Shiva) with a form and without a form. The mind knows that there's no difference between Saguna and Nirguna Brahman...yes, the MIND knows it...but I am still stuck here nonetheless.

So, are Buddhists Atheists? No, they are not. They may worship a Saint instead of a 'God' but why worship a Saint like Lord Buddha? What did Buddha do? Why, he realised God! Why do people worship Buddha? So they can do likewise through his amazing teachings, devotions to him and prayers...it's like when we worship our Guru, right?

I could also go into the 'Celestial Buddhas' like Avalokiteshwara...who is Maha Kala....who is Virocana....who is Bhairava...who is Lord Shiva Himself (see what I did there)?

So, in one way or another, Buddhism is totally Theistic...up to a point (as everything really is).

Aum Namah Shivaya

realdemigod
09 August 2013, 10:18 AM
All schools of Buddhism don't believe in a Creator God but some schools believe in demigods..planes of hell and heaven.

Jeff08
09 August 2013, 10:55 PM
Namaste

As I was raised in Theravada Buddhist. I had studied Theravada Buddhist since I was a child. We NEVER mention to God even only once. I would say again in Theravada Buddhist perspective. We refer the Lord Buddha is the founder of the Buddhist religion. He is the person can enlightenment on the Dharma. So, the Theravada Buddhist is sticky believe in Three Jewels which contains Buddha, Dharma and Sangha(monk). So totally, Theravada Buddhism does not believe in God. But they believe in heaven, hell and Karma.

They also believe in angel. I don't know how exactly of that point but some Thai Buddhist they refer our deity like Lord Indra as the angel who listen and acknowledge Lord Buddha's Dharma. But I won't mention on this because that might be only some Thai Buddhist believe that.

In Mahayana Buddhist, they mention in many deity of them but I don't know much in this sect. But as I know, they also never refer God. just only their deity or angel.
Totally, that depends on the sect too. But if my previous religion which is Theravada Buddhist is atheistic.

Om Shanti

Aryavartian
10 August 2013, 12:47 PM
See this link. :)

http://historum.com/asian-history/60795-early-buddhism-brahmanism.html

rainycity
30 August 2013, 01:50 AM
Regarding Buddhism, I am not so sure. Buddhism, just like Hinduism, diversified after the Buddha into a heady concoction of differing and sometimes contradictory beliefs...some believe in reincarnation, some do not, some are realists, some are idealists, etc., etc.

All schools of Buddhism teach rebirth. It's only recently in western countries that there have been Buddhists have denying post-mortem rebirth.


All schools of Buddhism don't believe in a Creator God but some schools believe in demigods..planes of hell and heaven.


As above, all schools of Buddhism believe in devas and planes of hell and heaven.

Lakshmidevi
30 August 2013, 12:00 PM
Having grown up Buddhist, it's kind of complicated. In Pure Land Buddhism, Amitabha plays a theistic role as creator of Sukhavati, savour of beings in the saha world and teacher of those reborn in Sukhavati.

There is also the trikaya doctrine in Mahayana. The physical body is nirmanakaya, this is Gautama Buddha. Then there is the celestial body of the Buddha or sambhogakaya, Amitabha Buddha. Finally there is the Dharmakaya or truth body, Mahavairocana Buddha. The Dharmakaya is the ground of being from which everything arises and returns.

Mahayana shares a lot of similarities with Sanatana Dharma. The Yogacara philosophical school is very similar to Advaita Vedanta and makes Dharmakaya the "Clear Light" of pure consciousness. It is not different to Brahman.

In terms of personal deities, Shiva, Tara, Kali, Vishnu, Brahma, and Indra all have their place. Some of them are transformed into Buddhist deities while others remain distinct.

As an aside when I was at university I went to a Thai (Theravada) temple and there were far more out right theists than I ever expected. They talked about God and Buddha.

For further readings check out:
Lankavatara Sutra
Sukhavativyuha Sutra
Tathagatagarbha Sutra
Mahaparinirvana Sutra
Mahavairocana Sutra
Suvarna Sutra
The 25th Chapter of the Lotus Sutra
Nilakantha Dharani (complete version)
Kshitigarbha Sutra and Dharani
Bhaisajyaguru Sutra

Aum Hari Aum!

Jeffery D. Long
30 August 2013, 07:36 PM
Namaste Lakshmidevi,

A very helpful posting indeed! In my studies of Buddhist texts, but even more so in my interactions with Buddhists (mostly in Japan, though also in the USA where I reside), I find there is far more affinity than differentiation between Buddhist (especially Mahayana) and Hindu (especially Advaita Vedanta) traditions. The "atheism" of Buddhism is, I would say, exaggerated (and not even correct to assert if one takes "atheism" to include its usual contemporary connotations, such as a materialist metaphysics--which the Buddha explicitly rejected--and a general disregard of spiritual pursuits as delusory).

Lakshmidevi
31 August 2013, 12:17 AM
Namaste Lakshmidevi,

A very helpful posting indeed! In my studies of Buddhist texts, but even more so in my interactions with Buddhists (mostly in Japan, though also in the USA where I reside), I find there is far more affinity than differentiation between Buddhist (especially Mahayana) and Hindu (especially Advaita Vedanta) traditions. The "atheism" of Buddhism is, I would say, exaggerated (and not even correct to assert if one takes "atheism" to include its usual contemporary connotations, such as a materialist metaphysics--which the Buddha explicitly rejected--and a general disregard of spiritual pursuits as delusory).

Vannakkam Jeffery,

Thank you. Yes Buddhism in the US (where I also live) has taken an interesting turn. It seems to be that western converts (which my family was) are far more interested in the God vs no god idea than native born Buddhists. There is a strong movement in post modern American Buddhism to completely brush aside deities, theism, literal rebirth and karma etc.

Buddhism in it's Asian form tends to be (although not always) more flexible with theism as long as it doesn't hurt one's path to liberation. If it takes one from the path of dharma then it becomes problematic.

Aum Hari Aum!

Jeff08
31 August 2013, 01:44 AM
Buddhism in it's Asian form tends to be (although not always) more flexible with theism as long as it doesn't hurt one's path to liberation. If it takes one from the path of dharma then it becomes problematic.

Aum Hari Aum!

Your point is right! As I was Theravada Buddhist by born in Asian. I would confirm that as you told us is happening now in my country. In Theologically, our school always teach about Theravada Buddhist way which is atheistic. No god talks in this sect. The philosophy of it does not talk about god or supreme being. But some of Buddhist is more flexible with theism as Lakshmidevi said. They believe in heaven which has angel and hell has devil. And many stories refer to deities.

Quite some Buddhist in my country also worship Hindu deity too. They've just worship only our Hindu deity for their desired but they don't follow Sanatana Dharma as we're proceeding now. That's why if any members here have been Hindu temple in Thailand and see many Thais join the ceremony and if you ask, "Are you Hindu?" Some of them probably says "No, I'm Buddhist"

OM Shanti

charitra
31 August 2013, 08:50 AM
There is also the trikaya doctrine in Mahayana. The physical body is nirmanakaya, this is Gautama Buddha. Then there is the celestial body of the Buddha or sambhogakaya, Amitabha Buddha. Finally there is the Dharmakaya or truth body, Mahavairocana Buddha. The Dharmakaya is the ground of being from which everything arises and returns.

Mahayana shares a lot of similarities with Sanatana Dharma. Aum Hari Aum!


Namaste Laxmi ,
Informative post
The buddhist classification of kaya or‘bodies’ appear to be analogous with the hindu scriptural classification of our physical and metaphysical bodies that are associated with each one of us.
Consider the below given pancha (five) koshas (bodies) typically described by hindus:
According to Hindu dharma, we have 5 bodies called kosha-s, पञ्च कोश (five sheaths) :

अन्नमय कोश (physical body, anatomical structure), Anna maya kosha

प्राणमय कोश (physiological body, energy body, aura) , Prana maya kosha

मनोमय (mental sheath), manomaya kosha
विज्ञानमय कोश (intellectual sheath), vijnana maya kosha
आनन्दमय कोश (bliss sheath). Ananda maya kosha.


Buddhism, right from its inception, and spreading over many centuries later borrowed heavily from Hinduism, in fact the faith borrowed their founder himself from an hindu family. My tone may sound accusatory, which it is not, instead it only stems from academic curiosity on my part. Some of the experts in both the above faiths must bring out the similarities for the benefit of the readers. Dissimilarities also must be highlighted at the same time. All Dharmic faiths have some common doctrines that bind them to Hinduism inseparably. That's my perception at least.

Jetavan
31 August 2013, 10:51 AM
Greetings,

The word "atheism" is so embedded within Western assumptions of theism, that it doesn't help to apply it to Buddhism.

Lakshmidevi
31 August 2013, 11:04 AM
Namaste Laxmi ,
Informative post
The buddhist classification of kaya or‘bodies’ appear to be analogous with the hindu scriptural classification of our physical and metaphysical bodies that are associated with each one of us.
Consider the below given pancha (five) koshas (bodies) typically described by hindus:
According to Hindu dharma, we have 5 bodies called kosha-s, पञ्च कोश (five sheaths) :


अन्नमय कोश (physical body, anatomical structure), Anna maya kosha

प्राणमय कोश (physiological body, energy body, aura) , Prana maya kosha

मनोमय (mental sheath), manomaya kosha
विज्ञानमय कोश (intellectual sheath), vijnana maya kosha
आनन्दमय कोश (bliss sheath). Ananda maya kosha.


Buddhism, right from its inception, and spreading over many centuries later borrowed heavily from Hinduism, in fact the faith borrowed their founder himself from an hindu family. My tone may sound accusatory, which it is not, instead it only stems from academic curiosity on my part. Some of the experts in both the above faiths must bring out the similarities for the benefit of the readers. Dissimilarities also must be highlighted at the same time. All Dharmic faiths have some common doctrines that bind them to Hinduism inseparably. That's my perception at least.

Yes I agree, Buddhism took a lot from Hinduism as it developed. This is especially true in Tantric Buddhism as well as the worship of Avalokiteshvara and the development of Yogacara philosophy. The dissimilarities are much smaller than then the similarities imho. Although I am biased coming from the Hindu side of things ;)

Aum Hari Aum!