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wundermonk
02 July 2012, 06:16 AM
Praise Allah, Mohammedan men are specifically running a sex ring to target white women in the UK! Alhamdulillah! Hindu/Sikh women are not alone. White women...get to know the benevolence of Mohammedans too!

Story here (http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/world/uk/Sex-grooming-cases-spark-racial-tensions-in-UK/articleshow/14592624.cms).


ROCHDALE, ENGLAND: She was lonely in the way only an adolescent girl can be: No friends, no boyfriend, not much of a relationship with her parents. So she felt special when a man decades older paid attention to her, bought her trinkets, gave her free booze.

Then he took her to a dingy room above a kebab shop and said she had to give something back in return. His demands grew: Not just sex with him, but with his friends. It went on for years, until police charged nine men with running a sex ring with underage girls.

The story of Girl A, as she became known in court, is tragic by any measure, but it has also become explosive. Because there is no getting around it: The girls are white, and the men who used them as sex toys are Asian Muslims, mostly Pakistanis raised in Britain. And it's not just Rochdale -- roughly a dozen other cases of Asian Muslim men accused of grooming young white girls for sex are slowly moving to trial across northern England, involving up to several hundred girls in all.

In today's Britain, which prides itself on being a tolerant and integrated society, the case has stripped away the skin to expose the racial sores festering beneath. It is also feeding an already raw anger against the country's Asian Muslim minority, in a movement led by far right groups at a time when the economy is stalled.

"You can't get away from the race element," says prosecutor Nazir Afzal, a British Muslim with family roots in Pakistan who ended several years of official indifference to the girls' plight and finally brought the perpetrators to trial. "It's the elephant in the room."

_______

From a distance, Rochdale looks like a picture-perfect English city, with the 800-year-old Parish Church of St. Chad perched high above the streets, and the Victorian Gothic Town Hall just below, its clock tower resembling the one that houses London's Big Ben.

Up close the flaws become clear. Like missing teeth in an otherwise sparkling smile, a fair number of downtown shops are boarded up, or have been turned into pawn shops or dueling "pound shops" where almost all items cost 1 pound ($1.60) or less.

The Pakistani community started to grow half a century ago, when the town's cottons mills were flourishing. The newcomers, most of them from poor rural villages, were drawn by the promise of steady jobs and a chance to educate their children in English schools.

A number of mosques became part of the skyline, particularly the showcase Golden Mosque, winner of several design awards. Today, Muslim men wearing beards and decorated caps and women in black robes and veils are a constant presence on the downtown streets.

Nearly 1 million Pakistanis live in England - far more than in any other European country - with about 25,000 settled in the greater Manchester area that includes Rochdale. The government's equality commission reports that more than half of the Pakistanis in Britain live in poverty, far more than the general population, with just under 75 percent having no formal savings.

They face hard times now. The closed shops are signs of a double-dip recession that has hit northern England harder than the more affluent south, which includes London, with its financial district and well-to-do suburbs.

The mills have long since closed; the local newspaper trumpets gloom and doom: A tripling in the number of homeless, a sharp rise in youth unemployment, more people seeking housing benefits.

Even the local McDonald's, long a fixture in the town center, has moved out.

It was in this environment that Girl A lost control one summer night in 2008.

After drinking heavily, the 15-year-old went to the kebab shop in nearby Heywood where she had first met her "boyfriend." She started screaming and busting the place up. When police were called, she told them she had been raped -- repeatedly -- and offered up her semen-stained underwear as proof.

Greater Manchester Police detectives concluded the girl, who was below the age of consent, was telling the truth, but Crown Prosecution Service lawyers recommended against pressing criminal charges, reasoning that the jury might not believe a troubled, hard-drinking, sexually active young girl. The case was quietly dropped after an 11-month inquiry.

The abuse intensified. The ring of predators grew; the circle of victims widened. Eventually there would be at least 47 victims or witnesses.

The girl was driven around at night, forced to have sex with more and more men, sometimes up to five a day, in cars or restaurant backrooms or grubby apartments. The men threatened her if she complained. There seemed to be no escape.

She was trapped in a secret world of sex acts that took place late at night when most people in Rochdale were safely tucked away in their homes.

_________

The Rochdale men do not fit the classic profile for sex offenders in Britain -- the majority of pedophilia crimes are committed by white men who target boys and girls via the Internet. However, there is a consensus among prosecutors, police, social workers and leading national politicians that "street grooming," which happened in Rochdale, is largely dominated by Asian men.

Ella Cockbain, a University College of London crime science specialist, says research shows that mostly Asian men make up the big groups of offenders who work together. She chooses her words carefully because the sample size is small and the topic sensitive.

"There are definite patterns emerging that would be foolish to ignore," she says.

Mohammed Shafiq, a British Pakistani who directs the Ramadhan Foundation in Rochdale, has angered some in his own community by suggesting that police at first did not pursue the case aggressively for fear of appearing racist because of an obsession "with the doctrine of political correctness."

Shafiq says that a "tiny minority" of Pakistani men feel white girls are worthless and immoral - and can be abused with impunity.

"They know if they took someone from the Asian community, it pretty quickly is going to be found out," he says. "But those white girls are available, so they think they can get away with it."

The men in the Rochdale sex ring were remarkable only in their ordinariness. They were part of British life, but on the fringes - the sort of people most Britons don't really notice when they pass them on the street.

Many were taxi drivers, accustomed to working all-night shifts with long down time between fares, and they frequented the late-night kebab takeout shops offering familiar lamb, chicken and falafel dishes. Their cab stands and the kebab shops were often the only businesses that remained open after the bars closed.

Most of the men were first or second generation Pakistanis raised mainly in Britain. Only one had faced previous sex charges: Ringleader Shabir Ahmed, at 59 the oldest in the group, who was accused of repeatedly raping a young girl in a separate case. Ahmed, known to the girls as "Daddy," was convicted of 30 counts of rape in that case last week.

Some of the men had families and small businesses. The ring included Abdul Rauf, 43, who would later claim to have experience as a Muslim preacher, which local Islamic leaders dismiss as a total fabrication. A few had ongoing contacts with local politicians.

The men were neither affluent nor dirt poor. They lived outwardly stable lives but had few obvious prospects for advancement.

They were finally brought to justice after health workers reported a large increase in the number of underage girls in the Rochdale area claiming to have suffered sexual abuse. The next year, Afzal, the new regional chief of the Crown Prosecution Service, reversed the earlier decision by prosecutors and decided to press the case in court, with Girl A at its core.

"It was a no-brainer," Afzal told the Associated Press. "She was immensely credible. And the police now had evidence of a wide network."

Eleven men were charged with offenses ranging from rape to conspiracy, and police suspect more were involved. The men had such psychological power over the girls that even during the trial, one girl talked of a defendant as her boyfriend.

Parliament has launched an inquiry based in part on reports that the abuse is far more widespread than originally thought. Afzal said his office is handling roughly a dozen other similar cases, including one that involves 13 men accused of operating a sex ring with 24 girls.

Afzal says that as a Muslim he is sickened by the crimes.

"Rape and alcohol and abuse are not part of Islam," he says. "Just because they have a beard and go to the mosque doesn't make them good Muslims."

_____________

As the Rochdale trial reached court, the issue of race and religion burst into the open.

One far-right protester carried a sign making reference to the meat favored by many observant Muslims because it meets strict religious guidelines. "Our girls are not Halal meat," the sign read.

Inside the court, Ahmed, a key defendant, fought back hard. He accused the all-white jury of racism. He accused one girl of thinking whites were superior, and denigrated them all as greedy money seekers. And he accused white society of neglecting its girls and tolerating, even encouraging, bad behavior.

"You white people train them in sex and drinking, so when they come to us they are fully trained," he said.

The jury found nine men guilty and set two free. Judge Gerald Clifton articulated what many felt but were reluctant to say out loud when he accused the men of treating white girls as worthless because "they were not of your community or religion." Then he sentenced them to a total of 77 years in prison.

The May verdict further polarized Rochdale. Pakistanis were horrified at the stigma on their community and enraged that the men claimed to be Muslim.

"They are playing the Muslim card, pretending they are good Muslims, but they are not," says Irfan Chishti, who runs an educational program at one of the town's mosques. "This was a great sin under Islam. If Sharia law was in place, the punishment would be very severe."

Even while he and other leaders of the Rochdale Council of Mosques were discussing the case, about 40 protesters from the far-right British National Party held an unauthorized rally on the nearby Town Hall steps. The far right has seized on the case, claiming that some British Pakistanis follow a code they believe is practiced in parts of the Islamic world that allows men to have sex with girls under 16.

Louis Kushnick, founder of the race relations resource center at the University of Manchester, said it has become convenient for white residents - including those beyond the far-right movement - to blame Muslims for the sex crimes.

"You hear people talking about this, and it becomes tied to Islam," he says. "People say they are Muslim men, they see women as inferior, they have contempt for white women, so it has nothing to do with the rest of us."

That view overlooks all the problems that left the girls vulnerable in the first place, he says, citing a deficient school system and a government-backed child care regime riddled with neglect and abuse. And he says the prolonged economic downturn has intensified resentments, with whites and Asians competing for the same "****" jobs.

"Blaming the Muslims lets us avoid addressing these questions," he says. "Once we blame 'The Other,' we think we have an explanation that makes sense."

Many in Rochdale are wary about discussing the case. Graduate student Heather Eyre, 25, says the trial has badly divided the city.

"It shouldn't have mattered that they are Pakistani," she says of the abusers. "But it's stirred up hatred. Some say they should be deported, and some parts of the Asian community say the jury was racist. Then the far-right groups came in...this case has been good for the English Defense League."

__________

The girl who first told police about the abuse, now a young woman of 19, has moved out of the area. In a brief pooled interview before she withdrew from the public eye, she refused to call the crimes against her racial in nature, but said she was shocked Muslims would commit such acts.

She said that in 2008, when the grooming began, there was no awareness of this type of crime involving Asian men and white girls.

"Now it's going on everywhere," she said. "You think of Muslim men as religious and family-minded and just nice people. You don't think...I don't know...You just don't think they'd do things like that."

When the abuse started, she said, she felt anger and shame, then became resigned and, finally, numb.

"After a while it had been going for so long and so many different men that it became like I didn't feel anything towards it anymore," she said. "It just weren't me anymore. It just became something I had to do....Once you're in it, you're trapped. I just think what they did to me was evil."

Twilightdance
02 July 2012, 06:24 AM
Praise Allah, Mohammedan men are specifically running a sex ring to target white women in the UK! Alhamdulillah! Hindu/Sikh women are not alone. White women...get to know the benevolence of Mohammedans too!

Story here (http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/world/uk/Sex-grooming-cases-spark-racial-tensions-in-UK/articleshow/14592624.cms).

Yes this is making news in UK for quite some time now. Of course no one is exempt from Mohammedan benevolence, particularly their love for non muslim women and girls. Women, girls and girl childs must have been the biggest reason why Mr Mohammed came up with his great religion of piss [actually love]. Other men who love women also quickly bought into it - and Muslim men from ages have made it a point to show this affection for kaffer women and also share it with their brothers in the brethren.

philosoraptor
02 July 2012, 03:07 PM
Namaste,

You know, I'm obviously no big fan of either Christianity or Islam. Well, you'll have to take my word for that since some of my more critical comments of these so-called "religions" are no longer, how should we say, available for your viewing pleasure. But in any case, I'm going to take the high road on this one. I'm not at all clear on what "Islam" had to do with the sex crimes mentioned here. I can completely see a scenario in which "Hindu" men were caught doing something similar (and in fact, I have heard of similar stories in the USA), and I would hope that the reporting of such an event did not stress on the "Hinduness" of the accused as if that had something to do with their sexual crimes against underage teenagers.

The real problem is quite clear looking at the defendants' behavior:



Inside the court, Ahmed, a key defendant, fought back hard. He accused the all-white jury of racism. He accused one girl of thinking whites were superior, and denigrated them all as greedy money seekers. And he accused white society of neglecting its girls and tolerating, even encouraging, bad behavior.

"You white people train them in sex and drinking, so when they come to us they are fully trained," he said.


And there you have it - these ugly comments show that it is misogyny combined with racism that is the catalyzing factor here.

Ganeshprasad
02 July 2012, 04:04 PM
Pranam



Namaste,

You know, I'm obviously no big fan of either Christianity or Islam. Well, you'll have to take my word for that since some of my more critical comments of these so-called "religions" are no longer, how should we say, available for your viewing pleasure.

Oh i can believe that Phil, Please don't leave us in the Dark, we all love the warrior that defends, these so called religions comes in all sort of guise and it is no secret, they pray on young Kafirs,

Jai Shree Krishna

Shuddhasattva
02 July 2012, 04:39 PM
Namaste,

You know, I'm obviously no big fan of either Christianity or Islam. Well, you'll have to take my word for that since some of my more critical comments of these so-called "religions" are no longer, how should we say, available for your viewing pleasure. But in any case, I'm going to take the high road on this one. I'm not at all clear on what "Islam" had to do with the sex crimes mentioned here. I can completely see a scenario in which "Hindu" men were caught doing something similar (and in fact, I have heard of similar stories in the USA), and I would hope that the reporting of such an event did not stress on the "Hinduness" of the accused as if that had something to do with their sexual crimes against underage teenagers.

The real problem is quite clear looking at the defendants' behavior:



And there you have it - these ugly comments show that it is misogyny combined with racism that is the catalyzing factor here.

Namaste

You don't think Islam is factor at all in manufacturing that misogyny & racism?

philosoraptor
02 July 2012, 07:06 PM
Namaste

You don't think Islam is factor at all in manufacturing that misogyny & racism?

Pranams,

There is no doubt that a conservative reading of the Koran could rationalize bigotry towards non-Muslims and exploitation of women in certain contexts. However, it's not clear that fidelity to the Koran is what generated the misogyny and racism in this particular case. Bear in mind that these men were all frequenting bars and using alcohol to seduce their targets. That hardly sounds Islamic by any stretch of the imagination. Bear in mind also that people are often identified with the religious group of their birth regardless of their specific convictions. Many "Jews" and "Hindus" are in fact the atheists in terms of the belief, but are still referred to by their religious origins as a matter of cultural convenience. It would be a mistake to assume that any crimes committed by such people is somehow related to their "Hinduness" or "Jewish-ness."

Blaming such horrific behavior on "The Other" helps people to go to sleep at night. They think that these problems originated with the undesireable minority/ethnic group, and thus turn a blind eye to the fact that they likely existed prior to the unwanted immigration. The true tragedy here would be to underestimate the frequency of child sexual exploitation in populations where those evil Muslims were not so predominant, as if it were merely a Muslim problem only.

regards,

Seeker
02 July 2012, 08:57 PM
Issue here is not lack of moral preaching , but bigotted brotherhood. A Muslim can show bad behavior toward a non-muslim and can count on his community to support him by a vast majority. Islam emphasizes this preferential (read bigoted) treatment to Muslims in several places. These sort of behaviors will warrant death if displayed toward muslims , but will be justified as deserving treatment of kafirs & dhimmis.

wundermonk
02 July 2012, 11:00 PM
Pranams,

There is no doubt that a conservative reading of the Koran could rationalize bigotry towards non-Muslims and exploitation of women in certain contexts. However, it's not clear that fidelity to the Koran is what generated the misogyny and racism in this particular case. Bear in mind that these men were all frequenting bars and using alcohol to seduce their targets. That hardly sounds Islamic by any stretch of the imagination. Bear in mind also that people are often identified with the religious group of their birth regardless of their specific convictions. Many "Jews" and "Hindus" are in fact the atheists in terms of the belief, but are still referred to by their religious origins as a matter of cultural convenience. It would be a mistake to assume that any crimes committed by such people is somehow related to their "Hinduness" or "Jewish-ness."

Blaming such horrific behavior on "The Other" helps people to go to sleep at night. They think that these problems originated with the undesireable minority/ethnic group, and thus turn a blind eye to the fact that they likely existed prior to the unwanted immigration. The true tragedy here would be to underestimate the frequency of child sexual exploitation in populations where those evil Muslims were not so predominant, as if it were merely a Muslim problem only.

regards,

There is no need to get politically correct on HDF.

The point here is that kaafir women are "fair game" for conversion by hook or crook. This goes back to the time of old Mo in the 7th century. Do keep in mind that Taqqiya does have Quranic sanction. Many of these Mohammedans have a wet dream fantasizing about re-establishment of a worldwide Islamic caliphate. This is not a problem with a "minority" of fanaticized Mohammedans. The problem runs deeper. "Moderate" Mohammedans, if they exist, should castrate their fanaticized brothers-in-faith. This ought to be the first priority of Mohammedans. Mohammedans cannot be corrected by non-Mohammedans. We can only keep on pointing out the depravity of Islam, the monstrosity of a jealous petty God that is going to burn the Kuffar for an eternity and mercilessly mock the faith. Neither Judaism nor Hinduism pose anywhere near a threat for the earth as Islam does.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RYMQneyuPSM

Believer
03 July 2012, 01:28 AM
Namaste,

There is no need to get politically correct on HDF.
+1

Being a simple man, my head hurts when I try to intellectualize things too much. So, I keep things as simple as possible. But, others may have different opinions on the same issues.

Pranam.

Shuddhasattva
03 July 2012, 04:14 AM
Pranams,

There is no doubt that a conservative reading of the Koran could rationalize bigotry towards non-Muslims and exploitation of women in certain contexts. However, it's not clear that fidelity to the Koran is what generated the misogyny and racism in this particular case. Bear in mind that these men were all frequenting bars and using alcohol to seduce their targets. That hardly sounds Islamic by any stretch of the imagination. Bear in mind also that people are often identified with the religious group of their birth regardless of their specific convictions. Many "Jews" and "Hindus" are in fact the atheists in terms of the belief, but are still referred to by their religious origins as a matter of cultural convenience. It would be a mistake to assume that any crimes committed by such people is somehow related to their "Hinduness" or "Jewish-ness."

Blaming such horrific behavior on "The Other" helps people to go to sleep at night. They think that these problems originated with the undesireable minority/ethnic group, and thus turn a blind eye to the fact that they likely existed prior to the unwanted immigration. The true tragedy here would be to underestimate the frequency of child sexual exploitation in populations where those evil Muslims were not so predominant, as if it were merely a Muslim problem only.

regards,

Namaste

One need not adhere to the exact dogma/teachings to be counted among its ranks and influenced by it. One can miss all the positive teachings - and every system has them, even in pathetic quantities such as Islam; they need some measure of truth and righteousness to convince anyone - and imbibe only the negative teachings and inculcated attitudes stemming therefrom, yet still derive support from the community, and nourish an identity with it.

Consider, for example, Latino gangs in the US. Many of them are devout Christians, or would consider themselves to be such. Yet how do they behave?

Or the Tibetan dobdobs?

Their behavior shows an "us and them" drawn along lines marked by Islam's inability to regard the host country as truly a House of Safety.

Certainly, they are hypocrites to their religion, and have shamed their mother's milk, but this milk was poison to begin with and has seeded this hypocrisy.

philosoraptor
03 July 2012, 11:11 AM
Namaste

One need not adhere to the exact dogma/teachings to be counted among its ranks and influenced by it. One can miss all the positive teachings - and every system has them, even in pathetic quantities such as Islam; they need some measure of truth and righteousness to convince anyone - and imbibe only the negative teachings and inculcated attitudes stemming therefrom, yet still derive support from the community, and nourish an identity with it.

Consider, for example, Latino gangs in the US. Many of them are devout Christians, or would consider themselves to be such. Yet how do they behave?



Pranams,

Ok, let's take Latino gangs in the US. They engage in gang warfare, male chauvinism, drug-dealing, and all sorts of other unspeakable acts. Yet, these people are nominally Christian and may even wear symbols to indicate their religious affiliation (crucifix earrings, tattoos, etc). The analogous situation would be for a Latino population to begin growing in a non-Christian country, and for journalists to report that the increased tendency towards gang warfare is a problem associated with Christianity. Would you consider that a responsible and defendable conclusion?

This isn't a question of political correctness. I don't care much for Islam or Christianity. To me, these are false religions. But I think one has to be fair, put aside one's inherent biases, and look at the facts. It *might* be that Islam has conditioned these criminals to behave in this way towards women, but the article as written has not made a good case to support that. From the article: "Ella Cockbain, a University College of London crime science specialist, says research shows that mostly Asian men make up the big groups of offenders who work together. She chooses her words carefully because the sample size is small and the topic sensitive." Also of note, the men involved were found guilty of sexual exploitation of non-Muslim women, but strangely, not of their own women. If it were purely a misogyny thing, would they not be guilty of it towards Muslim women also? Finally, there is the fact that these men were using alcohol and other obviously forbidden acts to entice these women. And their motivation, contrary to what was claimed earlier, does not appear to have been "conversion to Islam." All of this makes it difficult to accept that Islam is what inspired them to commit these crimes. Rather, it sounds like they were sexual predators by nature, and they used Islamic arguments to rationalize their crimes after the fact.

The religion of the Koran is abominable. It preaches the willful destruction of non-Muslim places of worship, prejudice against Jews, Christians, and "polytheists," and was spoken by a "prophet" who has a known history of subjugating women (especially the women of conquered tribes). That being said, there are many Muslims today who, despite their claims to fidelity to Islam, don't really subscribe to all of what it teaches. I am hard-pressed to believe that most Muslim men in spite of education and professional standing secretly fantasize about sexually exploiting young girls. I could be made to believe that, if there was objective data to support such a conclusion. Until then, I see serious problems with the idea of projecting child sexual abuse as a problem seen primarily in other ethnic groups. Oh no, it can't happen to us, and so we look the other way when it does...

Believer
03 July 2012, 11:20 AM
Namaste P/Raptor,

I commend you for being the lone voice of reason, but the central issue here is the concerted attack of Islam on non-Islamic women - be they Xitian or Hindu/Sikh. Everything else is a sideshow and a distraction.

Pranam.

philosoraptor
03 July 2012, 12:05 PM
Namaste P/Raptor,

I commend you for being the lone voice of reason, but the central issue here is the concerted attack of Islam on non-Islamic women - be they Xitian or Hindu/Sikh. Everything else is a sideshow and a distraction.

Pranam.

I agree that this is a huge problem, especially in places like Pakistan and other Islamic states. I'd even agree that it can be a problem in Western countries where Islamic proselytizing is carried out under a banner of secular protection. I am reminded in particular of a trend in British universities where Muslim males are reported to be actively targetting Hindu females for seduction, then reveal their Islamic fundamentalist streak after ruining the girls chastity and insist on marriage.

But.... I'm not sure that is really what is illustrated by this specific case of child predators from Rochedale, Britain.

wundermonk
03 July 2012, 12:17 PM
I agree that this is a huge problem, especially in places like Pakistan and other Islamic states. I'd even agree that it can be a problem in Western countries where Islamic proselytizing is carried out under a banner of secular protection. I am reminded in particular of a trend in British universities where Muslim males are reported to be actively targetting Hindu females for seduction, then reveal their Islamic fundamentalist streak after ruining the girls chastity and insist on marriage.

Why? What is the reason we have a "huge problem, in places like Pakistan and other Islamic states." What is the root cause? Can we identify a pattern? I wonder what is common among the problem places you identified - Pakistan and other Islamic states. Possibilities are:

(a)race
(b)language
(c)religion

Hmmm...this is going to be very difficult. :(

philosoraptor
03 July 2012, 12:32 PM
Why? What is the reason we have a "huge problem, in places like Pakistan and other Islamic states." What is the root cause? Can we identify a pattern? I wonder what is common among the problem places you identified - Pakistan and other Islamic states. Possibilities are:

(a)race
(b)language
(c)religion

Hmmm...this is going to be very difficult. :(

Pranams,

As I had indicated, I don't doubt that religion is the problem in those places and with regard to those situations. I've been most critical of both Christianity and Islam when I've been allowed to be (I can't help but note that it's usually other Hindus who get uncomfortable when I criticize those "religions"). However, I don't agree that all problems in which people nominally identified as Muslims are involved are ipso facto problems due to Islam. Child sexual exploitation has been going on in many countries and quite possibly for centuries. The article does not present a convincing case that child sexual exploitation in the UK has specifically increased due to the presence of Islam. Perhaps that is the case, and I'm sure we would all like to believe it, but the data is not there to show it yet.

Sadly, it is human nature to project social tragedies as problems primarily pertaining to "other" cultures. Some years ago, an Indian woman (not Muslim) committed suicide by jumping in front of a train in the UK. The newspapers were quick to point out that, being Indian, it could only be that she was the victim of age-old, Indian pressures specifically targetted against women.

Note the implicit journalistic double-standard here: White, Christian women can become depressed and suicidal without any external stimuli to explain it - we simply say they had a chemical imbalance of the brain. But when a Brown, Hindu woman becomes depressed and suicidal, then it can only be that she has a bad husband who is forcing tradition down her throat.

Similarly, when a White Christian man engages in child sexual abuse, then he is simply a criminal, and no one invokes his ethnicity or religious beliefs to explain it. But when a Brown, non-Christian man does it, then suddenly the crime acquires a sensationalist, minority-cultural underpinning in the eye of the dominant majority culture.

regards,

wundermonk
03 July 2012, 12:38 PM
As I had indicated, I don't doubt that religion is the problem in those places and with regard to those situations.

Thank you. Here is a non-Hindu perspective on the problem

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LfKLV6rmLxE

PARAM
03 July 2012, 12:48 PM
It is hard to believe that Islam is a religion, I accepts that Christianity is a religion but it is much corrupted. But Islam is a complete terrorism sponsored by zombies influenced by kuran virus.

When somebody is influenced by the Kuran Virus, this transforms them into Zombie Muslim and the Muslim spread terror Islam. These real live non fictious Zombies are not only thirsty of blood but also hungry of flesh.

Kuran+Muslim+Islam = Virus+Zombie+Terror

Shuddhasattva
03 July 2012, 12:59 PM
Namaste



Ok, let's take Latino gangs in the US. They engage in gang warfare, male chauvinism, drug-dealing, and all sorts of other unspeakable acts. Yet, these people are nominally Christian and may even wear symbols to indicate their religious affiliation (crucifix earrings, tattoos, etc). The analogous situation would be for a Latino population to begin growing in a non-Christian country, and for journalists to report that the increased tendency towards gang warfare is a problem associated with Christianity. Would you consider that a responsible and defendable conclusion?
Yes, absolutely. They have a religion that lets them get away with it. Sin, confess & take mass, rinse, repeat. Some of the Catholic Church's individual members may at some time oppose this sort of superficial Christian identity - often ending up in priests who speak out against gang violence getting shot or otherwise silenced. The Church is much more concerned with making sure fertility rates stay high - ammunition in the war for souls (and mo money), if you will, their interests lie more along lines of extracting money, influencing politics to its advantage - namely retaining tax exempt status, currying political influence, silencing scandals of all kinds, etc.,

I hope you understand that at various times a large percentage of contributions to the Catholic Church in the US have been made by Catholic organized crime gangs - Irish, Italian, Mexican - especially after the prohibition made narcotics trade lucrative.

If the host country was honest about what it was experiencing, it would certainly conclude that Christianity is a factor.

Now, modern Christianity, partially tamed by secular humanism (which, though in the Indian context, is nigh a curse word in how it's manipulatively applied was, in the European context, an unparalleled blessing which delivered man's mind there from the shackle of Christianity) is not nearly as misogynistic as Islam, though it can often be more racist. Islam might, with some accuracy, be called the religion of misogyny. It is the price one pays for denying female divinity, and fostering the idea of a god who sets up the universe as an arbitrary torture machine, besides for scripting for aggressive attitudes against other cultures. Islam even allows one to sexually enslave the women (and children) of the nations one is at war at. Fundamentally, Islam breeds an "us and them" mentality, it allows one to separate oneself, and one's ilk, sharply from those defined as unbelievers. One's morality in regard to the unbelievers is held a separate affair from the morals taught in regards to the faithful.

Many of these immigrants aren't coming to contribute to their nation, they're coming to feed off of it.

It is not the House of Safety to them.


islam is more a factor in these people's behavior than Christianity is in the case of Latino gangs, where it certainly is a factor.

But my point is that beyond the ink-and-paper teachings of Islam is the religious community built up around it which 'serve' to orchestrate Muslim society around them, they have an absolute vested interest in keeping their Islamic ghettoes a separate, insular society in which they have the supreme power and its goodies often supplied to them by such people as these parasites, the likes of which are often well-respected in their communities, contributors to it even. Their activites may be known about, but not checked, because after all, aren't they exploiting the enemy to the gain of the faithful?

Islam is a major problem here. Without Islam to culturally isolate them with its sense of separation from everything "not-Islam" these people could assimilate and become valuable members to society as a whole.

Namaste

Shuddhasattva
03 July 2012, 01:38 PM
Namaste

One last thing before I depart from this thread: it is not that Islam somehow makes otherwise decent souls to fantasize about enslaving non-Islamic women; but it, and its society, give succor and justification to those who would, rather than reining them in.

Namaste

charitra
03 July 2012, 02:20 PM
The mention of latino groups I think on this thread is a bad idea, the analogy is flawed, if I may say so. Latinogroups, black and white groups have no religious fervor or flavor. Its everything to do with the race and types of crimes they engage themselve sin, for they are all Christians and they don’t go after non Christians. The OP clearly and rightly identifies one religious group poaching on the other religions.

During 90s I lived in England, and observed that the muslim men were clearly going after hindu and sikh girls in the name of love and romance and the latter were forced to convert when the day of wedding approached.There was no way around it. The blackmail was planned right in the mosques, the clerics say,’ go after the hindus and Sikhs etc, convert them, that’s your religious duty’. That was the mantra then and possible now. Parents were scared that their liberal upbringing was the biggest mistake and as a result their daughters are victims of Islamic militancy. I think, thanks to London bombings and many more subsequent open venomous assertions by muslims, awareness has risen considerably about the scheme hatched in mosques. As was already pointed out above, the religion sanctions atrocities on adherents of other faiths. Nonmuslim women are an easymeat, without any doubts. Some of you must read the blog of Ali sina, amil Imani, wafa sultan etc. Also, please google faithfreedom. org for some interesting analysis, most conclude good people are turned into bad people by the manuals recited by the mullahs. It is not people making religion bad there, instead, it is the religious texts that make people bad in Islam.

philosoraptor
03 July 2012, 03:01 PM
Pranams. Many remarks here, let me try to address all of them.


Thank you. Here is a non-Hindu perspective on the problem

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LfKLV6rmLxE

Thanks for this. But I don't need to be told that Islam is not a religion of peace. I figured that out a long time ago. I'm glad the speaker did not make the mistake of claiming that the true religion of peace is Christianity, as that would have been blatantly delusional. I agree with his point that people like Osama Bin Laden are not necessarily bad Muslims, and that extremism and fundamentalism per se are not necessarily bad - it's the values about which one is fundamental or extreme that make the difference.

The point I think you might be missing is that how a religion is practiced evolves/devolves over time, in many cases straying frequently from its original scriptural roots. Islam, as defined in the Koran, is a violent, xenophobic, misogynistic religion. However, many people who call themselves "Muslim" don't necessarily follow these values. In particular, the growth of an educated, "moderate" Muslim community in Westernized countries is ample evidence of this. These people would rather have their comfortable lifestyle rather than burn it all up out of religious animosity. I would argue that they are not "true Muslims," but in the end, they still call themselves Muslims and are referred to by the dominant culture as such.



It is hard to believe that Islam is a religion, I accepts that Christianity is a religion but it is much corrupted. But Islam is a complete terrorism sponsored by zombies influenced by kuran virus.

When somebody is influenced by the Kuran Virus, this transforms them into Zombie Muslim and the Muslim spread terror Islam. These real live non fictious Zombies are not only thirsty of blood but also hungry of flesh.

Kuran+Muslim+Islam = Virus+Zombie+Terror

I'm afraid I can't agree with this. Christianity at its root is every bit as xenophobic and violent as Islam. While Christians started out as a persecuted minority (unlike Muslims who started out as a violent rebellion), the reality is that Christianity quickly became violent and oppressive once the Roman Empire became a Christian theocracy. Under Christianity, the population of pagans and druids within Europe quickly disappeared, and at least some of this was the direct result of military conflicts. The same pattern was seen in the United States during the 18th-19th centuries which witnessed frank genocide of the Native American populations. That Christianity has acquired a "moderate" image today compared to Islam has nothing to do with its doctrine. It has everything to do with the fact that Christendom, compared to other religious communities, enjoys a dominant share of the world's lands, resources, and wealth, thanks in no small part to its prior history of ongoing military conquest. In contrast, Muslim countries have been the victims of Western Imperialism as recently as several decades ago, continue to depend on foreign powers to supply them with technology, and are no longer able to expand through military conquest. If Christian society had evolved as Islamic society had, I would have no doubt that it would be Christianity that is associted with most incidents of international terrorism.



Yes, absolutely. They [Latino gangs in the US] have a religion that lets them get away with it. Sin, confess & take mass, rinse, repeat. Some of the Catholic Church's individual members may at some time oppose this sort of superficial Christian identity - often ending up in priests who speak out against gang violence getting shot or otherwise silenced.

In that case, we should observe that wherever Christianity makes inroads into a non-Christian culture, we must necessarily observe increased gang violence attributed to Christian minorities. But we do not invariably observe that.

On the other hand, there is another perfectly legitimate explanation that does not require that we falsely invoke Christian doctrine as a cause. Latino gangs recruit almost exclusively from socioeconomically-disadvantaged sections of society. These people turn to crime as a quick and easy way of acquiring wealth. They use their ties within the Latino community and within the churches to recruit more people into their gangs - these existing social networks provide an easy way to communicate with others in the fold, and have nothing to do with religiously-inspired violence. As you yourself have noted, these people murder Catholic priests who speak out against their activities. That hardly seems consistent with violence inspired by Christian belief.

regards,

Shuddhasattva
03 July 2012, 03:08 PM
Namaste


In that case, we should observe that wherever Christianity makes inroads into a non-Christian culture, we must necessarily observe increased gang violence attributed to Christian minorities. But we do not invariably observe that.

I feel like you're not really listening to my arguments, but reading in strawmen. The problem with Christianity is not so much that it inspires the violence, it's that it excuses it, and takes benefit from it in its social form - the Church and its dependents.

Nonetheless, in many places, you'll find that whenever Christians come as an outside force - whether as immigrants or invaders, to the extent that there is a difference, there is tremendous bloodshed, subjugation, coercion, etc.

What are we to say, for example, of violent and coercive Christian activity ? Those are things directly inspired by Christianity, rather than merely finding their basis and justification in identifying with it.

Islam is far more justificatory of violence and separatist parasitism, both through its scriptural form, and its actual social form as explained previously.

It both conditions people in ways that will later contribute greatly to this sort of behavior later in life, and provides them succor as a social structure, even if they are only 'external display Muslims.'


Namaste

philosoraptor
03 July 2012, 03:51 PM
Namaste

I feel like you're not really listening to my arguments, but reading in strawmen. The problem with Christianity is not so much that it inspires the violence, it's that it excuses it, and takes benefit from it in its social form - the Church and its dependents.

Nonetheless, in many places, you'll find that whenever Christians come as an outside force - whether as immigrants or invaders, to the extent that there is a difference, there is tremendous bloodshed, subjugation, coercion, etc.

What are we to say, for example, of violent and coercive Christian activity ? Those are things directly inspired by Christianity, rather than merely finding their basis and justification in identifying with it.

Islam is far more justificatory of violence and separatist parasitism, both through its scriptural form, and its actual social form as explained previously.

It both conditions people in ways that will later contribute greatly to this sort of behavior later in life, and provides them succor as a social structure, even if they are only 'external display Muslims.'


Namaste

Pranams,

I'm sorry that you feel that way.

Christianity (like Islam) can be used to justify violence, that is true. I've never disagreed with that. But not all violence that occurs due to Christian people has a religious dimension. This is the difference.

There is a difference between "Christianity" and being "Christian." Similarly, there is a difference between "Islam" and being a "Muslim."

The Latino gang example you brought up is not violence in the name of religion. It is violence for economic reasons which sometimes takes advantage of church social networks for recruiting purposes.

The dangers of giving child sexual abuse a specifically Muslim connotation are multiple. First, it can mislead people into thinking that, minus the Muslim presence, it isn't a significant problem. That would be a tragic misunderstanding. Second, it could inspire oppressive behavior by legal authorities against people solely based on their ethnic affiliations. The British authorities admitted that they didn't have the data to specifically associate increased rates of child-sexual-abuse with Muslims. Yet, one almost gets the impression that we should be monitoring Muslims more, simply by virtue of their being Muslim.

The lesson here is, always, always, question biased journalistic reporting of ethnic violence.

Believer
03 July 2012, 09:06 PM
Namaste,

Since people seem to be talking past each other without any convergence and it is a matter of 'winning the debate', may I suggest keeping the pointers in the following link in mind for a successful outcome:

http://hindudharmaforums.com/showthread.php?t=6417&highlight=dharmic+discussions

Pranam.

PARAM
04 July 2012, 12:55 AM
It is not people making religion bad there, instead, it is the religious texts that make people bad in Islam.

I already mentioned that in small words, nobody is Muslim Zombie without being infected by Koran Virus. Good people badly need complete security of Dharma, Hindutva anti-virus is what they need, but Zombies are promoting the bug of secularism to prevent anti-virus to cure them.

philosoraptor
04 July 2012, 10:36 AM
My point all along is simply that we should be wary of journalism that portrays non-ethnic crimes as if they are mostly or exclusively ethnic problems. We may want to agree with the UK case because it serves our purposes as Hindus. However, the same biased reporting used against Muslims can just as easily be used against Hindus. Most people in the Western world (sadly) cannot even distinguish between Hindus and Muslims.

Believer
04 July 2012, 11:11 AM
Namaste,

I was amused to see you calling yourself a 'spurious Hindu' :), which you are not.

My point all along is simply that we should be wary of journalism that portrays non-ethnic crimes as if they are mostly or exclusively ethnic problems. We may want to agree with the UK case because it serves our purposes as Hindus. However, the same biased reporting used against Muslims can just as easily be used against Hindus. Most people in the Western world (sadly) cannot even distinguish between Hindus and Muslims.
All your points are well taken, but in this case it is not a fabricated or embellished account of events by the 'dirty' journalists. Your conscious seems to be bothered by some unrelated events? Arise O Arjun, why are your knees buckling?

Pranam.

wundermonk
04 July 2012, 12:20 PM
Even fellow Pakistani Muslims are admitting that this is a problem that needs to be talked about and not simply dismissing the newsreport as a piece of substandard hit journalism.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-18117529

Phew, we dodged a bullet there, did we not? I was thinking that we here on HDF may like to discredit the newsreport and claim that Islamic culture has nothing to do with this issue on the one hand, while on the other hand, FELLOW MUSLIMS are arguing that religion/culture does have something to do with this.

This would be similar to the following:

NDTV's Barkha Dutt arguing that Islam is a benevolent religion VERSUS
ex-Muslim Salman Rushdie arguing that Islam is a satanic religion.

Ganeshprasad
04 July 2012, 12:33 PM
Pranam


However, the same biased reporting used against Muslims can just as easily be used against Hindus. Most people in the Western world (sadly) cannot even distinguish between Hindus and Muslims.

If this was the point you wanted to convey all along, i don't think most Hindu here would disagree with you. Sad fact of life here in the west, we get lumped here as Asians, though there has been some acknowledgement within the general populace, there is a gulf off difference but it serves it purpose for media to lump us together, keep us down.

Jai Shree Krishna

kamala
08 July 2012, 07:16 PM
The people are pretty stupid to fall for the tricks that the muslims do..

Believer
08 July 2012, 09:45 PM
Namaste,

The people are pretty stupid to fall for the tricks that the muslims do..
I would not say that too loud in the forum. We have some people here who even "love" the muslim trolls, and when I try to deal with the trolls my way, these 'hijras' call me all kinds of names and threaten me with their resolve ;); can you imagine being threatened on the internet with nothing but their resolve?

Pranam.

PARAM
11 July 2012, 09:09 AM
I'm afraid I can't agree with this. Christianity at its root is every bit as xenophobic and violent as Islam. While Christians started out as a persecuted minority (unlike Muslims who started out as a violent rebellion), the reality is that Christianity quickly became violent and oppressive once the Roman Empire became a Christian theocracy. Under Christianity, the population of pagans and druids within Europe quickly disappeared, and at least some of this was the direct result of military conflicts. The same pattern was seen in the United States during the 18th-19th centuries which witnessed frank genocide of the Native American populations. That Christianity has acquired a "moderate" image today compared to Islam has nothing to do with its doctrine. It has everything to do with the fact that Christendom, compared to other religious communities, enjoys a dominant share of the world's lands, resources, and wealth, thanks in no small part to its prior history of ongoing military conquest. In contrast, Muslim countries have been the victims of Western Imperialism as recently as several decades ago, continue to depend on foreign powers to supply them with technology, and are no longer able to expand through military conquest. If Christian society had evolved as Islamic society had, I would have no doubt that it would be Christianity that is associted with most incidents of international terrorism.

I don't disagree with you, it was first Christian Missionaries which started wrong translations of Dharma Grantham and they made all Dharma Grantham to feature bible like fascism. They claimed Meat (including beef), alcohol in Vedas and they made Aryan invasion theory all this is now a fashion for Adharmis to use, even lesser learned Hindus are accepting this just because they support drinking alcohol and eating flesh.

Everyone knows what these Christians did in their History after council of Nicea, but ultimately it is still Islam which is the biggest Zombie of the present time. Even in Christian Nations Hindu scriptures are not that badly treated and courts also accepts most of the pleas, all because they are clever and do not want to show their hate against Dharma openly, but this is not same with Islamic Nations, they destroy everything that is non Islamic and continue even if they depends on financial support by non Muslim countries, they are clear Zombies

dhyandev
14 July 2012, 09:53 AM
can you imagine being threatened on the internet with nothing but their resolve?

Pranam.

Hahahaha.:Roll: