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yajvan
02 July 2012, 05:36 PM
hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

namasté

I always found this statement interesting... the universe is expanding. I think, well what can it be expanding into ? If I take a balloon and blow it up, it expands into existing space, it has room to expand. Yet what of the universe - where can it expand into ?

For anything to expand it needs ākāśa (space) with its property of avakāśa to make room, space, for things to exist. So if the universe is made up of objects and space, the space must not be expanding because it is there already, no ?
What one is talking about then is the objects ( or galaixes and gases) that are continuing to expand. As I understand it ( and always look for corrections) , this expansion is 71Km\sec\Mpc which says 71 kilometers per second per mega-parsec. For those using English or Imperial measures 71 Km = 44.1 miles; A mega-parsec = 3.2 million light years ( as a distance).
So for each second that ticks by object-groups are moving away from other objects by 71 Km (+/- 5% as I understand it).

Also , if my facts are correct , this number of 71Km\sec\Mpc is also accelerating. It has been called the Hubble Constant, yet this ~ constant~ is speeding up. I do not know the acceleration rate, but that is what the scientists tell us, an expanding and accelerating universe.

You would think with all this expansion, I'd be able to look up and say, hey wasn't the group of stars over there just last year ?

Now my question,
Yet what of the universe - where can it expand into ?

praṇām

JaiMaaDurga
02 July 2012, 07:57 PM
Namaste yajvan,

This video only addresses the scientific perspective, and does not delve into
anything philosophical or metaphysical, but perhaps you may find it
interesting:

What Is The Universe Expanding Into? (http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/www.youtube.com/watch?v=kV33t8U6w28)

JAI MATA DI

yajvan
02 July 2012, 09:29 PM
hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

namasté


Namaste yajvan,

This video only addresses the scientific perspective, and does not delve into
anything philosophical or metaphysical, but perhaps you may find it
interesting:

What Is The Universe Expanding Into? (http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/www.youtube.com/watch?v=kV33t8U6w28)

JAI MATA DI

I tried the link offered, yet it did not work.

praṇām

saidevo
02 July 2012, 09:44 PM
namaste Yajvan.

Don't our scriptures speak about manifest and unmanifest Brahman and say that Brahman manifests only a part of itself? Could then be the universe expanding into new space manifest by Brahman?

Well, if that be the case, we can't call AkAsha--space infinite. This is logical because if Brahman is the only infinite entity and space is only a part of his manifestation, then that space itself cannot be infinite.

wundermonk
02 July 2012, 09:46 PM
"What is the universe expanding into?"

This is a question related to the philosophy of the Big Bang. I have never found a satisfying answer to this. The proponents provide the following analogy.

Consider an infinite number line made up of the integers alone - extending to infinity on both sides.

Now, add the point halfway between every successive line segment (x, x+1). "Expand" the already-infinite number line to place these half-way points on top of the integers, ad infinitum. Voila, the infinite universe is expanding similarly!

JaiMaaDurga
02 July 2012, 10:28 PM
Namaste,

My apologies for the non-working link, hopefully posting the link as
text will work:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kV33t8U6w28

JAI MATA DI

brahman
03 July 2012, 03:37 AM
hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

namasté

I always found this statement interesting... the universe is expanding. I think, well what can it be expanding into ? If I take a balloon and blow it up, it expands into existing space, it has room to expand. Yet what of the universe - where can it expand into ?

For anything to expand it needs ākāśa (space) with its property of avakāśa to make room, space, for things to exist. So if the universe is made up of objects and space, the space must not be expanding because it is there already, no ?
What one is talking about then is the objects ( or galaixes and gases) that are continuing to expand. As I understand it ( and always look for corrections) , this expansion is 71Km\sec\Mpc which says 71 kilometers per second per mega-parsec. For those using English or Imperial measures 71 Km = 44.1 miles; A mega-parsec = 3.2 million light years ( as a distance).
So for each second that ticks by object-groups are moving away from other objects by 71 Km (+/- 5% as I understand it).

Also , if my facts are correct , this number of 71Km\sec\Mpc is also accelerating. It has been called the Hubble Constant, yet this ~ constant~ is speeding up. I do not know the acceleration rate, but that is what the scientists tell us, an expanding and accelerating universe.

You would think with all this expansion, I'd be able to look up and say, hey wasn't the group of stars over there just last year ?

Now my question,
Yet what of the universe - where can it expand into ?

praṇām







Dear Yajvan et al.

THE actuality of this expansion explained is experienced only when we perceive it through some means of the so called advanced studies of its related sciences.

This perception or ‘knowledge’ of this particular event called expansion is an external aspect of existence.

Simultaneously there is a corresponding experience of this expansion of the universe, as conceptual counterpart, takes place within everyone who observes it, as an internal experience.

Usually modern science denotes only the external gross aspect of expansion alone, neglecting the conceptual internal experience uncounted. They say the perception is a quality of our mind which is a formation of the physical objects or substances in our brain.

The existence of the gross world is a direct experience common to all, equally real is the internal experience of the events takes place in our mind.

Both these events takes place in one consciousness and that is the Cit aspect of Brahman, which is unconditioned consciousness.

Now let's see the questions,



Now my question,
Yet what of the universe –

Thought of the universe



where can it expand into ?

It should be expanding into the deeper Realm of creative imagination of our own mind.


This POV is from the standpoint of Vedanta.


Love:)

yajvan
03 July 2012, 11:15 AM
hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

namasté


Thank you all for your contributions. I hope more conversation continues on this subject.

Let me offer a few ideas. I am not the final authority on this matter and offer some additional viewpoints, that may move the conversation ahead.

Saidevo writes,


Don't our scriptures speak about manifest and unmanifest Brahman and say that Brahman manifests only a part of itself? Could then be the universe expanding into new space manifest by Brahman?
Yes, this is true, yet too the upaniṣad-s inform us that this ākāśa is the body of brahman. I can see why they say this as it gives one the notion of its vastness (vyāpana¹).
And as you say creation is just a part of its manifestation. Some say 1/4th part, others say 1/16th part.

Yet there has been some thought of brahman as manifest and unmanifest. This unmanifest ( some like the term transcendent) suggest a seperation , or being ~beyond~, some place else. This is not the case as this brahman is fullness; the word that applies is paripūrṇānuttara¹.
So, why do I mention this. If brahman is absolute, ultimate fullness, then there can be no place it is not. So where ever expansion occurs (it seems) , it is only expanding into more of brahman.



Well, if that be the case, we can't call AkAsha--space infinite. This is logical because if Brahman is the only infinite entity and space is only a part of his manifestation, then that space itself cannot be infinite.
Let's say this is true... what then is beyond ākāśa? That is, if it is finite, then it has some end. If at this juncture of ākāśa ending, what then is one millimeter past this end ? If we say nothing, then we arrive back at ākāśa which is nothing or śūnya (hollow, empty, void).

Yet the conundrum - if brahman is all that there is, it too must be at the end of ākāśa, which is śūnya, but now we call it brahman. I just do not see how to dis-connect ākāśa from brahman, without flowing into the conversation of consciousness, and that too is viewed as cid-ākāśa.

Hence the wonderful world of the infinite where all can be seen as full and as empty in one stoke.

praṇām

words

vyāpana -spreading though , pervading , penetration , covering , filling
paripūrṇānuttara = pari+pūrṇa+anuttara or fully whole, Supreme and unsurpassable.
pari = fully , abundantly , richly
pūrṇa = full, whole
anuttara = unsurpassable, Supreme