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madhavpr
02 July 2012, 08:56 PM
Namaste and pranaams..

As you all know, the Anugita is the 2nd discourse by Shri Krishna to Arjuna in the epic Mahabharata. Though not as lucid and beautiful as the Bhagavad Gita, it contains quite a lot of information about the nature of Brahman. The text of the Anugita can be found here.

http://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/m14/m14016.htm

'Vasudeva said, 'I made thee listen to truths that are regarded as mysteries. I imparted to thee truths that are eternal. Verily, I discoursed to thee on Religion in its true form and on all the eternal regions. It is exceedingly disagreeable to me to learn that thou didst not, from folly, receive what I imparted. The recollection of all that I told thee on that occasion will not come to me now. Without doubt, O son of Pandu, thou art destitute of faith and thy understanding is not good. It is impossible for me, O Dhananjaya, to repeat, in detail, all that I said on that occasion. That religion (about which I discoursed to thee then) is more than sufficient for understanding Brahma. I cannot discourse on it again in detail. I discoursed to thee on Supreme Brahma, having concentrated myself in Yoga. I shalt now, however, recite to thee an old history upon the same topic.

My questions are:

1) Why was Krishna unable to recollect the Bhagavad Gita ?

2) What does He mean by "I discoursed to thee on Supreme Brahma" ? Is He indirectly saying that He is not Brahman? Why doesn't He say, " I discoursed to thee on MYSELF" ?

3) Did Krishna act as a messenger of Brahman in the Kurukshetra war ?

4) Could Anugita may be a later addition or an interpolation in the epic?

My sincere apologies if I have hurt the beliefs of any member.. Krishna is my God as well, but this passage in the Mahabharata makes me question His absoluteness. :( :(

Regards,
Madhav

shiv.somashekhar
09 July 2012, 09:38 AM
Namaste and pranaams..

As you all know, the Anugita is the 2nd discourse by Shri Krishna to Arjuna in the epic Mahabharata. Though not as lucid and beautiful as the Bhagavad Gita, it contains quite a lot of information about the nature of Brahman. The text of the Anugita can be found here.

http://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/m14/m14016.htm

'Vasudeva said, 'I made thee listen to truths that are regarded as mysteries. I imparted to thee truths that are eternal. Verily, I discoursed to thee on Religion in its true form and on all the eternal regions. It is exceedingly disagreeable to me to learn that thou didst not, from folly, receive what I imparted. The recollection of all that I told thee on that occasion will not come to me now. Without doubt, O son of Pandu, thou art destitute of faith and thy understanding is not good. It is impossible for me, O Dhananjaya, to repeat, in detail, all that I said on that occasion. That religion (about which I discoursed to thee then) is more than sufficient for understanding Brahma. I cannot discourse on it again in detail. I discoursed to thee on Supreme Brahma, having concentrated myself in Yoga. I shalt now, however, recite to thee an old history upon the same topic.

My questions are:

1) Why was Krishna unable to recollect the Bhagavad Gita ?

2) What does He mean by "I discoursed to thee on Supreme Brahma" ? Is He indirectly saying that He is not Brahman? Why doesn't He say, " I discoursed to thee on MYSELF" ?

3) Did Krishna act as a messenger of Brahman in the Kurukshetra war ?

4) Could Anugita may be a later addition or an interpolation in the epic?

My sincere apologies if I have hurt the beliefs of any member.. Krishna is my God as well, but this passage in the Mahabharata makes me question His absoluteness. :( :(

Regards,
Madhav

Number #4 is the key question and the answer is Yes. The Anu gita has never received the kind of attention and importance as the Bhagavad Gita.

While we do not have direct evidence of the spurious nature of the Anu Gita, there is ample evidence that the Mahabharata is not the work of a single hand nor is it from a single generation. It has been reworked - quite extensively - over multiple centuries.

madhavpr
09 July 2012, 11:14 PM
Namaste Shri shiv.somashekhar.

I was thinking of the same thing. I was wondering how Lord Krishna could forget his teachings at a time when everything had fallen in place in Hastinapura.


While I do believe that the Mahabharata is not the work of one single author, I do not know how to find the authentic and spurious stories contained in them. The epic (in whatever form it is), for me, contains all the answers for understanding what is right and wrong, leading a good life and staying devoted to God. I haven't read the Vedas or Upanishads but I believe that near practical solutions to problems can be found in the epic through the lessons of great characters like Bhishma, Vidura etc. And of course, an excellent relationship between the two Gods- Shiva and Krishna is present in that magnificent work of art.


Is there any way of finding what is authentic and what is unauthentic/spurious in epics like Ramayana and Mahabharata? Probably the answer lies in reading Vedas and Upanishads, which I haven't read much. I have concentrated more on Bhakti rather than philosophy, scriptures etc.

Lastly, has anyone in here read the original Jaya by Vyasa ? I have searched for it online in vain. :(

SanathanaDharma
10 July 2012, 07:15 AM
Dear friend,

As you have rightly understood, Mahabharatha is of highest level in terms of knowledge, philosophy, practicality, bhakthi and definitely gnaana....and hence it is referred by many as the "Panchama Veda" or the fifth veda....

Most of the major scripts we have today actually have a single common root, which is very clearly explained in the scriptures itself.....after the end of the Dwapara Yuga, when Kali Yuga had set in, there was destruction everywhere....

not only people were fighting each other but the source of knowledge like books, sages were also being destroyed....but then there were ofcourse some great sages [who probably are alive even today in the deep caves of Himalayas] who were the knowledge database and they knew that they had to continue providing information to the next generations...

One of the great such sage was/is Suta or Sauthi or Ugrashrava, who was the son of Lomaharshana [some scriptures say Lomaharshana himself was Suta and some say he is Suta's father ]....He was in the dense forest in the northern part of current India called Naimisha aranya....

At the beginning of this Kali Yuga, a large group of sages led by another great sage Shaunaka, approached Sage Ugrashrava...
At this point of time, the precious knowledge was present with only a few great sages and had the need to pass on...
One common factor that can be found in almost all great Puranas, Itihasa and other great scriptures is that the introduction
part in those great works mention exactly the same points .... One logical conclusion which can be arrived at here is...

- knowledge database was concentrated and was available with few great sages
- Sage Ugrashrava was one such sage with huge amount of information
- Sage Shaunaka along with a large number of disciples visited Sage Ugrashrava at Naimisharanya
- Sage Ugrashrava imparted the knowledge to the to Shaunaka and his big group of disciples...

Now there is a very high probability that many of the disciples wrote down whatever was being told by Sage Ugrashrava and also there is very high probability that not everyone wrote down the same stuff, but distributed the content so that most of the knowledge can be collected in written format....[That is why we have probably different Puranas]

Thousands of years have passed since then and these written documents have been modified, adulterated, changed according to personal interests, major chunks have been re-written or updated according to the requirements of powerful evil persons, many have their own interpretation and major portions have been destroyed .....and we are today left with probably a very very small portion of data which has undergone all the above said hurdles....

The Mahabharatha we have today can actually be divided into 4 concentric segments....
- The core which is told by Sage Veda Vyasa or Krishna Dwaipayana and has been written Sri Ganesha is called
"Jaya" ....which means victory [of dharma over adharma]....and this section actually includes the conversation
between Sanjaya and Dritharaashtra.....It starts with Sanjaya describing the geography of Bharatha and then describes
the great war held at Kurukshetra....it is in this very section the Bhagavad Gita is present....This core of Jaya
ends with the 18th day of war where Dharma wins over Adharma...

- The outer covering of Jaya is where another great sage Vaishampayana narrates the story of "Jaya" to King Janamejaya...
who is the great grand son of Arjuna....

- The third layer is where Sage Ugrashrava tells the above mentioned information to Sage Shaunaka and his disciples...

- The fourth layer is where probably the most damaging layer....this is the point where many great Sanskrith poets and
not so great persons who still had good knowledge in Sanskrith[two thousand years ago many many people knew and spoke sanskrith daily]
have modified, changed, deleted and adulterated the information...and today we are left with those data only...[Another example here would be yet another Gita which comes in Srimad Bhagavatam where Sri Krishna advises Uddhava just like He does it to Arjuna...and this is done when the entire Yadu dynasty was about to get completely destroyed....much much later than the Anu Gita....]


"Is there any way of finding what is authentic and what is unauthentic/spurious in epics like Ramayana and Mahabharata? Probably the answer lies in reading Vedas and Upanishads, which I haven't read much. I have concentrated more on Bhakti rather than philosophy, scriptures etc. "

Well the Vedas and in particular Upanishads actually do not contain any information using which one can decide what is authentic or not...

On the other hand, having complete faith and bhakthi in Paramathma will automatically filter out the unwanted stuff because He has given us the intellect which can understand logic and decide what is correct and what is not....and as Sri Krishna has beautifully mentioned in Bhagavad Gita, when we seek His support, He is always there to help us....directly or indirectly....

Online English translation [http://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/maha/index.htm]
Online Sanskrith [http://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/mbs/index.htm]

Bheeshma Parva actually marks the start of Jaya and Sauptika Parva and some portion of Stri Parva indicates the end of Jaya...again this is not a constant...people may claim different starting and ending points...

Believer
10 July 2012, 09:43 AM
Namaste,

.....I believe that near practical solutions to problems can be found in the epic through the lessons of great characters like Bhishma, Vidura etc. And of course, an excellent relationship between the two Gods- Shiva and Krishna is present in that magnificent work of art.
One could spend his whole life looking at the scriptures with a critical eye and treat them as mere literature. One could evaluate every nuance of every verse and spend his life shopping around for the 'perfect', completely logical (per the evaluator), one book with no apparent flaws. And then what? You have wasted your life in research without elevating yourself. Why not join us in Bhakti and start some chanting and japa and reading of the scriptures. Why not let go of the ego in thinking that we are higher than the scriptures and are capable of critiquing them? Passing judgement on the word of the Lord amounts to denying it. How could one benefit from a scripture with that attitude? Let us harmonize our lives by drawing on the scriptures and adopting whatever good we can in our lives, instead of wasting time in analyzing it all with our limited intellect. If we believe that the scriptures provide answers to all our problems, what is the point of looking for more? Let us start living the life we were intended to.

Pranam.

madhavpr
10 July 2012, 12:05 PM
Namaste,

One could spend his whole life looking at the scriptures with a critical eye and treat them as mere literature. One could evaluate every nuance of every verse and spend his life shopping around for the 'perfect', completely logical (per the evaluator), one book with no apparent flaws. And then what? You have wasted your life in research without elevating yourself. Why not join us in Bhakti and start some chanting and japa and reading of the scriptures. Why not let go of the ego in thinking that we are higher than the scriptures and are capable of critiquing them? Passing judgement on the word of the Lord amounts to denying it. How could one benefit from a scripture with that attitude? Let us harmonize our lives by drawing on the scriptures and adopting whatever good we can in our lives, instead of wasting time in analyzing it all with our limited intellect. If we believe that the scriptures provide answers to all our problems, what is the point of looking for more? Let us start living the life we were intended to.

Pranam.


Namaste Shri Believer.

I totally agree with you. I am just an average student , untrained in scriptures. I started reading the Mahabharata because it contains the stories of my favorite Lord Krishna, plus I got to know quite a lot about Lord Shiva too. There were some passages in the epic which had raised doubts in my mind, about quite a lot of things. How could Lord Krishna forget the Gita?? :)

I would be more than happy to go to temples and participate in pujas and functions, or join you all in japa and chanting the names of the Lord. I am at peace when I listen to a Hari/Shiva/Durga stotram or bhajan and get immersed in them, not when I try to use my tiny little brain deciphering or interpreting scriptures. I certainly have a lot of catching up to do, but I'm happy with my devotion for God. I would just want it to be pure and unconditional.

Jai Shri Krishna.

- Madhav

shiv.somashekhar
10 July 2012, 12:21 PM
While I do believe that the Mahabharata is not the work of one single author, I do not know how to find the authentic and spurious stories contained in them.

There is probably no way of doing that.

Madhva (13th century) wrote a synopsis on the Mahabharata and he noted the difficulty of having to deal with spurious texts. He dismissed the entire Valmiki Ramayana as a bogus text.

BORI (Bhandarkar oriental research institute) went through a long exercise spanning several years to construct a critical edition of the Mahabharata, which is now available, but I do not how to get a hold of it. Depending on when the Anu Gita was inserted into the Mahabharata and its presence in the number of manuscripts, it may or may not be part of the BORI edition.