Jul 4

[Believer]

Namaste,

While the nation regales with parades and speeches and family/friends get togethers, forgotten is the fact that it is a sad day for the Native Americans, who lost it all to the so called 'pilgrims'. Don't know whether to be happy or sad!

What are your feelings?

Pranam.


PS, Two years of HDF membership and 1045 posts!

[Twilightdance]

What are your feelings?

Feelings are not good, as Andy Murray seems to be winning again.

[Jainarayan]

Namaste.

Columbus Day is the day to mourn for the plight of Native Americans. Columbus Day commemorates the beginning of the end of Native American culture, begun by the Spanish and the Portuguese. Unfortunately the effects of Columbus's landing in the New World were already > 300 years in the making by the time of the American Revolution.

The American Revolution was not initially about conquest, greed and empire building. It was about freedom. Unfortunately the expansion and growth of what were initially the American colonies continued and accelerated the destruction of Native American cultures.

For that, we should all mourn, as we should mourn for the steamrolling of Tibet by the Chinese, the steamrolling of Russia and Eastern Europe by the Soviets, the steamrolling of India by Greeks, Arabs, Portuguese and British; the steamrolling of Manchuria and the atrocities committed by the Japanese; the list of steamrolled and raped cultures is virtually endless.

Independence Day commemorates the overthrow of the tyranny of the British Empire over its colonies, regardless of the continent: Asia, Africa, the Americas. Without the American Revolution and the elimination of British rule in the Americas, I believe that the US would not have the freedoms it does. This is because of the way the colonies were being treated by the British: as 2nd class citizens and serfs. Canada, Australia and New Zealand did not experience the same treatment mostly because they were so sparsely populated, and in the case of Oz and NZ, very remote.

While I am certainly not happy for or proud of the destruction of Native American cultures and civilizations all through North and South America, and many of the other things the US has gotten its hands dirty over, I personally am happy that the US is its own nation. Any day that commemorates the overthrow of the tyranny of a foreign power preventing a people to govern themselves is a good day. Any day that creates a nation that prevents the world from speaking German and/or Japanese as its primary languages is a day of celebration. ;)

[Believer]

Namste Jainarayan,

Seems like you had a lot on your mind. :)
Glad to provide you with an excuse to unload all/some of it.
Why is this eternal/obsessive/passionate/subservient allegiance to the English language and no love for German/Japanese? ;)

Pranam.

[Jainarayan]

Namaste.


Namste Jainarayan,

Seems like you had a lot on your mind. :)
Glad to provide you with an excuse to unload all/some of it.

No not at all, just soapboxing about history. I meant to write down that it was just jingoistic soapboxing and not jumping on you or anyone. So please don't think it was. I'd have written an op-ed or blog entry on it too, if I had a blog. :p


Why is this eternal/obsessive/passionate/subservient allegiance to the English language and no love for German/Japanese? ;)

Pranam.

Hmm... I seem to remember something about Germans and barbarians, but we won't delve into that. ;) Suffice to say it's not the languages themselves, but the fact that had the US not become involved in WWII, and beaten Hitler to the punch on developing atomic weaponry (which I find deplorable, and the use of in any event) and rocketry; and not defeated Germany and Japan, there's a good chance, imo, that a good chunk of the world would have come under German and Japanese control. Hence the comment about the world speaking German or Japanese.

Of course, because we can't go back in time, we can't know for sure. At any rate, were it possible, I'd be among the first to try to defend and preserve the Native Americans' and First Nations' ways of life, or that of any indigenous culture. What 'civilization' has done to indigenous cultures is deplorable. The Australians are no better in their treatment of Aboriginal Australians.

[Believer]

Namaste,

Hmm... I seem to remember something about Germans and barbarians.......
We are digressing from the intent of the thread, but if I may borrow your soapbox, how do we define the term barbarians?

Few years ago we took a guided tour of some of the ruins in Rome. The young lady who was our tour guide, was a foreign student from Sacandanavia and was a student of Roman/Italian history at the local university. During the course of her lecture, she mentioned that barbarians from Northern Europe had destroyed many of the old Roman/Italian artifacts at some point in their history. I laughingly responded with, Northeners, you mean your people from Scandanavia? It was probably the first time she realized that she had been parroting something from her classroom education without actually reflecting on it or understanding the meaning of it. So, sometimes the labels are very unfair and undeserving. Alexander is always given the title of 'the Great', but fits the definition of a barbarian - steamrolled over the armies of many lands; his soldiers killed, raped, plundered a large swath of Europe and Asia. How does he become 'the Great' and not a barbarian? If the Germans got hypnotized and controlled by a crazed leader for some amount of time in their history, that does not make all of them evil or barbarians. Our history classes/media color our thinking and we just let it out without even giving it a second thought. Be a thinking leader Jai Narayan, not a sleepy follower! :) Your second incarnation of this lifetime should be better than the first one. ;)

Pranam.

PS, English has almost become the de facto International language for internet, commerce, aircraft control tower operations and everything else. If I am going to lose my native tongue, what difference does it make if I lose it to English or German or Japanese? :)

<<<<Returning the soapbox to TBTL/JN<<<<<
-

[Jainarayan]

The comment about barbarians was a jab at another thread that got out of hand. Some things, unfortunately, stick in one's mind.

Anyway...

The origin of the word barbarian is Greek: barbaroi, simply meaning foreigner or stranger. It has taken on the negative connotation of lawless bloodthirsty hordes bent on raping, sacking and pillaging. And from the point of view of the raped, sacked and pillaged, barbarian lives up to its reputation. There is more to the sacking of Rome and the final collapse of the western Roman Empire that we were taught in school. Part of it was that the Roman army was made up of northern mercenaries who were not being fairly paid (or paid at all) by Rome. So they took what they thought was their due. It's all p.o.v.

Why is Alexander Great? I haven't got a clue, except he is seen as a great general, as was Chinggis Khan, both of whom built vast land empires. But not to the people they subjugated. Xerxes was 'great', but not to the Greeks he tried to subjugate, who incidentally kicked him to the curb at the Battle of Thermopylae. At least the Romans, steamrollers as they were, left us with the basis of our laws; literature; medicine; art. Alexander and the "Great Khagan" left us none of that. Except maybe to Mongolians, who btw renamed Ulaan Bator airport to Chinggis Khan Int'l Airport.

No, the German and Japanese people themselves were not evil or barbarians; they were sold a bill of goods by their leaders, as were Americans with Bush's cockamamey WMDs and getting us into Iraq. Are we evil and barbaric as a people? No, just stupid for having elected him a 2nd time. But in for a penny, in for a pound.

The references to using German and Japanese languages as the world's lingue franche against English is because I think we would be ruled by, or heavily influenced by Germany and/or Japan if they had won WWII. And I think that would have happened if not for July 4, 1776, going back on track of July 4, though I don't think we veered far off.

I like the new trend of revisionist history, and putting so-called great leaders where they belong... in the Not-So-Great category.

[Believer]

Namaste,

The comment about barbarians was a jab......
I believe, that is against your declared philosophy of being a better person and not getting into (your choice favorite word) contests. ;)

As far the rest of the text, I will restrain myself, as I too am trying to reduce/eliminate unpleasant/harsh language from my posts. :)

Pranam.