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realdemigod
04 July 2012, 12:52 PM
For all

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2012/07/120703-higgs-boson-god-particle-cern-science/

devisarada
04 July 2012, 02:00 PM
For all

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2012/07/120703-higgs-boson-god-particle-cern-science/

Think of the Hiranyagarba, the "Cosmic Womb", the "Golden Egg", "Brahman". Higgs Boson, the unfortunately tagged "God Particle, which is said to impart mass and shape to other sub atomic particles, if t is established that it exists, is one more piece of strong evidence that advaita, or monism is the fundamental model of the universe. That God is the Universe, and that the Universe is God. Tat Sat.

I am sure that those who follow Iskcon's translation of the Bhagavad Gita and Srila Prabhupada's purports of the same would vehemently disagree.

devisarada
04 July 2012, 02:16 PM
Isa and other Upanishads, Bell Theorem and Holographic Universe


http://www.the-covenant.net/rumb02.htm

wundermonk
04 July 2012, 02:44 PM
if t is established that it exists, is one more piece of strong evidence that advaita, or monism is the fundamental model of the universe. That God is the Universe, and that the Universe is God. Tat Sat.

This is precisely what I was hoping we would avoid - trying to somehow sneak our own pet philosophies in one way or another.


I am sure that those who follow Iskcon's translation of the Bhagavad Gita and Srila Prabhupada's purports of the same would vehemently disagree.

Why the pot shot at ISKCONites here? And, why exactly would they vehemently disagree?

devisarada
04 July 2012, 03:06 PM
This is precisely what I was hoping we would avoid - trying to somehow sneak our own pet philosophies in one way or another.



Why the pot shot at ISKCONites here? And, why exactly would they vehemently disagree?

This is not intended as a pot shot at Iskcon. Nor am I trying to "sneak" in my own "pet " philosophy. This is not a political forum.

Iskcon's philosophy is based on Dvaita. (Dualism).

According to my understanding, the Higgs Boson exists within Creation, which would confirm that Advaitic perspective.

Therefore, being Dvaitists, the Iskconites would not agree.

I thought this would have been abundantantly obvious.

Perhaps, Mr. Wundermonk, you can enlighten me exactly as to how establishment of the existence of the particle supports the Dvaitic position.

Twilightdance
04 July 2012, 11:44 PM
if t is established that it exists, is one more piece of strong evidence that advaita, or monism is the fundamental model of the universe. That God is the Universe, and that the Universe is God.

??? ... if universe is God then why do you call it God? This is one more piece to prove the closed universe model and reject all forms of God monist or dualists once for all - but we are still quite a bit from there unfortunately. Further, even if we solve all pieces of universe - the fundamental forces, dark matter, dark energy etc and conclusively prove closed universe model then also people will keep believing in God and religion and all other forms unfounded fantasies since they serve a psychological necessity. Creationism may take a hit - but not God, unfortunately.

wundermonk
04 July 2012, 11:46 PM
According to my understanding, the Higgs Boson exists within Creation, which would confirm that Advaitic perspective.

What does "exist within Creation" mean? What would it mean for something to "exist outside of Creation"? Unless we agree on these, whether the discovery of Higgs Boson lends support to one perspective more than another cannot be adequately decided.


Therefore, being Dvaitists, the Iskconites would not agree.

See above. Again, this is a hasty conclusion not supported by the data/information available now.


Perhaps, Mr. Wundermonk, you can enlighten me exactly as to how establishment of the existence of the particle supports the Dvaitic position.

It is premature to argue about theorems when the definitions and axioms are not in place and agreed to by all.

So, please go ahead and define the terms involved precisely before we can make onward progress.

devisarada
05 July 2012, 01:33 AM
.....It is premature to argue about theorems when the definitions and axioms are not in place and agreed to by all....

.

At first blush, this statement seems to be an oxymoron. Judging by the positive reception the announcement received in the scientific community, there seems to be a general acceptance that the discovery strongly appears to validate the Standard Model.

As to your requirement that definitions and axioms be agreed to by all: who are these all?

Further, it did not slip past my notice that you have attempted to dodge the question of Dvaita philosophy versus Advaita.
Of course. Dvaitists and Avaitists will never agree. It is certainly not up to us to judge who is right and who is wrong.

As to the timeliness or prematurity of this discussion; it depends on what your goals are. If they are to come to an absolutely irrefuteable conclusion, then yes, it will always be premature.

If, on the other hand you wish to engage in a friendly, non
adversarial, non judgemental exchange of ideas, then this discussion is very timely indeed.

This discovery will have a profoundly broad and diverse effect on many religions and their adherants among families, communities, and, even geopolitically.

This is why an open exchange of ideas is so crucial. The last thing we need is for believers of any philosophy/religion/dharma to hunker down and hide in the shadows of dogma.

I'm all for engaging in a respectful, meaningful exchange of ideas instead of a meaningless, adversarial debate. I have no desire to challenge or tear anyone's ideas to shreads.

wundermonk
05 July 2012, 02:56 AM
I am not dodging anything.

You made the claim that Dvaitins/ISKCONites would be troubled by the discovery of the ''God particle''. I asked for reasons supporting this assertion. You replied thus:


Iskcon's philosophy is based on Dvaita. (Dualism). According to my understanding, the Higgs Boson exists within Creation, which would confirm that Advaitic perspective. Therefore, being Dvaitists, the Iskconites would not agree.

The last two of the sentences above need to be justified. Don't you think so?

Twilightdance
05 July 2012, 04:30 AM
For those wanting to more about it in seriousness, the following BBC documentary was interesting.

Obviously, Religion and God are last things in the minds of the people working on this project, they have a more interesting fish to fry:-
http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&feature=endscreen&v=raKN0RddL3A

brahman
05 July 2012, 07:07 AM
For all

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2012/07/120703-higgs-boson-god-particle-cern-science/





Dear realdemigod et al.



These recent findings and its implications are non-utilitarian and thus of no use to a common man believing in God etc...

Just as the ‘square root of minus one’ is of no value to a common man or a merchant selling provisions, but without which the calculations and speculations in higher mathematics is impossible and will remain incomplete.

Scientists at CERN are brilliant, they are still finding what is superimposed on the one underlying principle, Brahman, the Absolute; which has now earned quite a good mileage.

What happened between, Neutral Absolute to the 10(−43th ) second ,where the first symmetrical spontaneous breaking took place is still an enigma and will remain a mystery until the scientists take off their eyes from the computer screens and turn inwardly into themselves, which will benefit them individually and not in mass as a teamwork as they do now.

We must negate what is superimposed and intuitively perceive what really exist as underlying our usual/regular experience of appearance.

Love:)

kallol
05 July 2012, 09:56 AM
It is the begining of next layer of discovery. We are reaching the final stage of the gross matter. Now we will enter the subtle matter - may in another few centuries.

This god particle is the first of the series - we will have many more like god 2, god 3 .... particle in furture till the time we will give up and say "yes we understand IT is there but no way we can detect".

It is the ultimate consciousness - paraprakriti - the origin and the source.

sanjaya
05 July 2012, 10:35 AM
Heh, you beat me to it Realdemigod. I would have posted this yesterday, but actually I was working a shift at the observatory, where you can tell there was quite a stir. None of us are particle physicists of course, but the discovery has some relevance to us in astronomy as well, since certain dark matter models rely on supersymmetry. In any case the Higgs Boson is an important capstone in the Standard Model of particle physics. The Standard Model is an understanding of what fundamental particles constitute the building blocks of nature and what their properties are, and the theory has been well-tested. The Higgs Boson was the final particle to be observed, and its absence would result in a hole in the theory, requiring all sorts of "beyond the Standard Model" theories. Thus its discovery is an important capstone.

The term "God Particle" is an unfortunate name. I don't know how much credence to give this story, but I once heard that in his seminal paper, Peter Higgs dubbed it the "Goddamn Particle" because it was so elusive. Apparently the journal referee didn't let this fly for the obvious reasons, so it was renamed the God Particle. On a sidenote, the term "boson" is a word referring to particles with integer spin quantum number, and is named after the Indian physicist Satyendera Nath Bose.

realdemigod
05 July 2012, 12:23 PM
Heh, you beat me to it Realdemigod. I would have posted this yesterday, but actually I was working a shift at the observatory, where you can tell there was quite a stir. None of us are particle physicists of course, but the discovery has some relevance to us in astronomy as well, since certain dark matter models rely on supersymmetry. In any case the Higgs Boson is an important capstone in the Standard Model of particle physics. The Standard Model is an understanding of what fundamental particles constitute the building blocks of nature and what their properties are, and the theory has been well-tested. The Higgs Boson was the final particle to be observed, and its absence would result in a hole in the theory, requiring all sorts of "beyond the Standard Model" theories. Thus its discovery is an important capstone.

The term "God Particle" is an unfortunate name. I don't know how much credence to give this story, but I once heard that in his seminal paper, Peter Higgs dubbed it the "Goddamn Particle" because it was so elusive. Apparently the journal referee didn't let this fly for the obvious reasons, so it was renamed the God Particle. On a sidenote, the term "boson" is a word referring to particles with integer spin quantum number, and is named after the Indian physicist Satyendera Nath Bose.

I didn't think this news would cause stir here as well :D. Like you mentioned the term is quite misleading as there are still so many questions unanswered. But it's a good progress for the astronomical amounts of money they are spending. May be it will take few decades or more to realise the ultimate reality manifesting the cosmos is Brahman.

Till then people are free to fight who is correct :D

Adhvagat
07 July 2012, 01:39 PM
Dear realdemigod et al.



These recent findings and its implications are non-utilitarian and thus of no use to a common man believing in God etc...

Just as the ‘square root of minus one’ is of no value to a common man or a merchant selling provisions, but without which the calculations and speculations in higher mathematics is impossible and will remain incomplete.

Scientists at CERN are brilliant, they are still finding what is superimposed on the one underlying principle, Brahman, the Absolute; which has now earned quite a good mileage.

What happened between, Neutral Absolute to the 10(−43th ) second ,where the first symmetrical spontaneous breaking took place is still an enigma and will remain a mystery until the scientists take off their eyes from the computer screens and turn inwardly into themselves, which will benefit them individually and not in mass as a teamwork as they do now.

We must negate what is superimposed and intuitively perceive what really exist as underlying our usual/regular experience of appearance.

Love:)


It is the begining of next layer of discovery. We are reaching the final stage of the gross matter. Now we will enter the subtle matter - may in another few centuries.

This god particle is the first of the series - we will have many more like god 2, god 3 .... particle in furture till the time we will give up and say "yes we understand IT is there but no way we can detect".

It is the ultimate consciousness - paraprakriti - the origin and the source.

Layers upon layers, upon layers, upon layers... But looking outside still does not show us any trace of meaning.

Good observations, Brahman and Kallol.

IcyCosmic
08 July 2012, 08:58 AM
Sadhguru on NDTV "Big Fight" July 7 - The God Particle

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QpkYRKz3-eA&feature=g-all-u