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ShivaIsLord
04 July 2012, 02:01 PM
Namaste,

I am a Muslim (Shia Ithna-Asheri Usuli), but I am seriously about done with it. I have so many issues with it, I don't even know where to start.

There are SO many freaking rules. Now, don't get me wrong, if it truly is God's religion, I would follow them willingly, but I find it hard to believe that God is this picky. For example, you're required to pray 5 times a day and fast the month of Ramadhan. I figured that if you didn't, but started up at some point, you would simply go from being a bad Muslim to being a good Muslim. Apparently not. Prayers and fasts are like some sort of bank account where it's all or nothing. I talked to a scholar, and found out that for me to get into good standing with Allah, I would have to make up 4,745 prayers, 60 fasts, and pay $1,700 worth of rice to the needy.

Holy sh*t.

I can't do that. This is only for two years of living a bad life. Can you imagine for someone that has gone for 20 years?! I'm willing to pay for my "sins" by being punished for them, because I recognize that every action has consequences, but this is borderline ridiculous.

That's another thing. Why is Heaven/Hell an absolute? What happens to good people that weren't Muslims? What about Muslims that fulfill all their requirements but are bad people in general? I really like the concept of eternal bliss in Jannah (heaven), but why is it an absolute? Why is it all or nothing?

There are MANY other issues I have with Islam, too many to name. I still feel a deep connection to Islam and the Imams (especially Imam Ali and Imam Mahdi), but living like a good Muslim is impossible unless you live in Iran or something, where it's the social norm to do everything perfectly according to Islamic law.

McKitty
04 July 2012, 03:24 PM
Hello !

I know it's sad or hard for you, but I found you very wise. Not because "you stop being a muslim 'cause Islam is baaaad", but wise because you are strong willed and clever enough to ask you the right questions.

In my view, God a peaceful and loving being. When something bad happen in my life, of if I have difficulties, I think this is God sending me a message. There always is a lesson to learn, a difficulty to overcome that makes us stronger, but not anger or cruelty. Then, knowing that, you naturally come to God not only in your moments of needs and doubt, but also in you moments of hapiness. You can choose to worship according stricltly to the rituals...Or you can choose to worship in your heart also, meditating on God every time in the day without even noticing it. Seeing a leaf dancing peacefully on a tree, on a sunny day, I think of Mahadev. That's as simple...But as beautiful. God created all here...Why would he discriminate people by their race, color, religion, if everything is a part of him, why would he punish some and not others ?

Sometimes we ask ourselves questions that make us doubt. If you are not comfortable being a muslim, then maybe you could afford a little break, seeking over other paths ? Maybe you need a "less strict" Islam, I don't really know much about Islam, but maybe there are others "schools" ?

You know I was born christian, but never felt at ease in christianity. I have wondered a long and painful path, looking for something...Then shifting to Sanatana Dharma was so natural, it was a relief. It takes time and time to learn and understand, I'm still an ignorant. Maybe you need a path less harsh.


What is important is to live the life that have been given to you. If you feel your religion restricting and censoring your life, and if you feel very uneasy with this, you maybe need to think and look around. But don't be too harsh with yourself, don't be too impatient too. And more importantly, leave peace. Maybe you don't quite understand why Islam is this or that, maybe you find those concepts not suited for you and unfair, but don't leave any hate in your mind about this...Hate does not bring us closer to any God, it's for sure.


I really hope the best for you...Cheers ! You're not alone after all, I'm sure you have friends to talk about, and you have this place if you need to talk too ! So don't give up~


Aum Namah Shivaya

mradam83
04 July 2012, 05:03 PM
Namaste,

I am a Muslim (Shia Ithna-Asheri Usuli), but I am seriously about done with it. I have so many issues with it, I don't even know where to start.

There are SO many freaking rules. Now, don't get me wrong, if it truly is God's religion, I would follow them willingly, but I find it hard to believe that God is this picky. For example, you're required to pray 5 times a day and fast the month of Ramadhan. I figured that if you didn't, but started up at some point, you would simply go from being a bad Muslim to being a good Muslim. Apparently not. Prayers and fasts are like some sort of bank account where it's all or nothing. I talked to a scholar, and found out that for me to get into good standing with Allah, I would have to make up 4,745 prayers, 60 fasts, and pay $1,700 worth of rice to the needy.

Holy sh*t.

I can't do that. This is only for two years of living a bad life. Can you imagine for someone that has gone for 20 years?! I'm willing to pay for my "sins" by being punished for them, because I recognize that every action has consequences, but this is borderline ridiculous.

That's another thing. Why is Heaven/Hell an absolute? What happens to good people that weren't Muslims? What about Muslims that fulfill all their requirements but are bad people in general? I really like the concept of eternal bliss in Jannah (heaven), but why is it an absolute? Why is it all or nothing?

There are MANY other issues I have with Islam, too many to name. I still feel a deep connection to Islam and the Imams (especially Imam Ali and Imam Mahdi), but living like a good Muslim is impossible unless you live in Iran or something, where it's the social norm to do everything perfectly according to Islamic law.

Namaste,

I know exactly where you're coming from.

I was a Muslim and practised for a year or so about 5 years back. I found in that year, the pressure was so immense and I literally felt myself hating religion in general after it.

What I didn't like was the attitude of other Muslims. They were so domineering and try to live their life vicariously through new Muslims I felt. "Don't do that brother," "Brother, you do know that's Haraam," were often things told to me. I also had a lot of Muslims who purposely refused to answer my Salaams just because they didn't believe I was sincere enough. Apparently, I was told I was in the wrong for making them feel uncomfortable! What a load of Tripe...

I'm glad you're looking into Hinduism, it really feels so right and ex Muslims like us will really see the great things about it.

Pranams.

devotee
04 July 2012, 11:16 PM
Namaste Muimineen,

I think Spiritual seeker (http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/member.php?u=1145) is quite knowledgeable on Islam as he has extensively read Islamic scriptures and he was a former Muslim.

I think he is in a better position to advise you. :)

OM

philosoraptor
05 July 2012, 09:13 AM
There are rules in Hinduism also. But, no one will chop off your head for not following them.

Believer
05 July 2012, 10:52 AM
Namaste,

Or, burn you alive,

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-18713545

Pranam.

ShivaFan
05 July 2012, 03:07 PM
Namaste

My problem with Islam is Islamists. Too many are politcized Islamists, and among them even if not a majority, too many of them want to kill me.

1) Kill me because I am an American
2) Kill me because I am not a Muslim
3) Kill me because my children are not nor ever will be Muslim nor any of my relatives
4) Kill me because I think the temples and shrines and churches and ancient monuments which Muslims have torn down and built mosques on top of should be returned the Hindu, Sikh, Buddhist, Jewish, Christian, Parsi, Jain, Zorostrian, animist et al, returned to them to again erect the temple as it was..
-and most of all
5) Kill me because I am a Hindu

I am an AMERICAN AND A HINDU - and there are ever more of us every day. For some reason that makes some Muslims REALLY hate me. But for those who do, I guess they better get used to it. Because we are the future, and they are the past. We have been around longer. And will be after they are left behind. Of course, no one is gone. They just become new again. To see yourself in the future, look far back to see yourself in the past. You should see who is next to you. Many of them have been with you for a long, long time.

My friends are the Devotees of Deva and Devi. There are no words that can describe this Friendship. I am bound by Duty and Dharma to Them. This Friendship is stronger than any hate. This journey of Friendship is a long travel, there are many adventures on the way. We are many. We have a History.

And we have a Future that will not be denied.

ShivaIsLord
05 July 2012, 10:33 PM
.

Thank you for your kind post.

I have been a Muslim only for about two and a half years (I became a Muslim on Eidul Adha 1430 -- Nov. 27, 2009), but I am so tired of worry about it, honestly. I absolutely love some parts of it, such as the devotion to Ali (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G4NpAd1lPNQ) because I can actually relate to human beings. That's something, I think, that draws me to Dharmic faiths. Hindu gods come in various Avatars, so I can worship the one that I am drawn to the most, with the characteristics I view god as having. Buddhism focuses on the self and sometimes the Buddha, both of which are much easier to relate to than some concept of god that is "out there". Does that make sense? As for other schools of Islam, I don't think so. If Islam is truly a religion of god, then the only other school that has the slightest bit of legitimacy is the Akhbari's, and they're a strange lot. They practice tatbir (cutting and whipping themselves) and they curse others quite frequently. If god is real, he can't be made up of so much hate. If god was as hateful as the Abrahamic traditions make him out to be, he would have destroyed the universe in a rage by now.

I was also raised a Christian, but none of the denominations appeal to me. Jesus was the friend of prostitutes, murderers, thieves, etc. Yes can you find a single church that accepts those people, without simultaneously being run down by them? (What I mean is, we should be accepting of all, as long as they don't interfere. The Salvation Army church that my aunt goes to is FILLED with bad influences, which isn't good either).

Another gripe I have with Christianity is it's absolutes. You are either a believer, and go to heaven; or you are a disbeliever, and go to hell. You could be a good or bad person, but your next life depends on only weather you believe or not (while some traditions emphasize work too much that they loose the message of Jesus. It seems like it is impossible to actually follow the teachings of the Bible. It's too contradictory. You either work your way into heaven, or you believe your way.)

I really appreciate your note on hate. I have a lot of hate built up inside of me that I need to let go for my own sake. My hatred of the Jews, the Sunnis, and the Christians will do no good. And I'm not even hurting the people I hate, I am only hurting myself. It will take me a long time to come to peace with some things, but I will work towards it the best I can. I have a lot of anger problems, but the only person that it hurts is me. My enemies benefit because I am weak from it.

Thank you, and the best for you too.



.

I totally understand what you mean. The pressure IS intense. I switched from Sunni to Shia a while back, and although there is a bit less pressure in Shiaism, it's still there. I never felt like I could be myself around fellow Muslims. I was always worried that I'd do something wrong in front of them, and that I wouldn't be accepted. This is a fear I have anywhere. I'm only 17 years old, and I have been a social reject my entire life. Other than my family and one or two friends here and there, nearly everyone hates me. I am always conscious of what I do, to make sure I don't do something unacceptable, but I usually did anyway. Especially in Islam.

They refused to respond to your salaams? :O That's haraam. I was told that it is a grievous sin not to return it if a Mu'mineen gives it to you. I would be rejected in other ways, that are similar though. I would give the long version (As-Salaamu Alaykum wa Rahmatullahi wa Barakatu) and would be greeted with an apathetic "salam". It was really demeaning, honestly, because I put the effort in to greet you in my non-native language, and you treat it as if I've done nothing. As if I'm worth nothing. Is it because I'm fat, white, and young?

Why on earth would they be uncomfortable with you around? I'd be more uncomfortable in the presence of a Wahhabi than a new Muslim that didn't know the social customs. At least I could sort of act myself around the new Muslim.

I agree with you. One of my few (if not my only, at this point) friends is a Hindu from Fiji. Although he hates my constant asking him about it, he has taught me more about being a good person than anyone else has. He does not abandon the modern world to be a recluse with nothing but contempt and hatred for all else, but he takes his morality and uses it in the contemporary world. That is the kind of life that I want to live.



I think Spiritual seeker (http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/member.php?u=1145) is quite knowledgeable on Islam as he has extensively read Islamic scriptures and he was a former Muslim.

Thank you. I will contact him, maybe.



There are rules in Hinduism also. But, no one will chop off your head for not following them.

Seriously?! SWEET. Now I don't have to hide when the extremists come around. lol


.

Very inspiring post. I agree with you. Unfortunately, Islam had transformed me into a radical. I eventually escaped all that, and found a home with my "enemies" (the shia), but I still don't feel right. I don't feel like I should have to defend Muhammad or my religion. Islam may not directly teach hatred and persecution, but the fact that it ALLOWS it to be interpreted that way concerns me. The response I've gotten from the Islamic community about this issue is simply that there are Christian and Hindu radicals that promote hate and terrorism too. Well, yes, I guess this is true. But Christianity and Hinduism are not built directly on such principals as Islam is. Islam came to combat the polytheists in Arabia, and boy did Islam win that battle, but that doesn't make it right.

Thanks to all for reading this thread and your responses :D

Believer
06 July 2012, 12:24 AM
Namaste,

Is it because I'm fat, white, and young
That is a trifecta of negativity. :)
Sorry, could not resist. Just a joke, I hope I did not offend you.

Keep pouring out your feelings. It is catharsis and finding your deep hidden emotions, both being dealt with through your posts. First thing you need to do though is to change your HDF name to a neutral one or a Hindu sounding one. Don't know why you would stick to your muslim name if you hate Islam so much and are trying to put it behind you. Besides it is insensitive to most of the native hindus in the forum, for you to be using such a name.

Pranam.

ShivaIsLord
06 July 2012, 01:23 AM
Namaste,

That is a trifecta of negativity. :)
Sorry, could not resist. Just a joke, I hope I did not offend you.

Keep pouring out your feelings. It is catharsis and finding your deep hidden emotions, both being dealt with through your posts. First thing you need to do though is to change your HDF name to a neutral one or a Hindu sounding one. Don't know why you would stick to your muslim name if you hate Islam so much and are trying to put it behind you. Besides it is insensitive to most of the native hindus in the forum, for you to be using such a name.

Pranam.

It's alright, I've come to terms with what I am lol.

Who may I contact to have a name change? Is there an admin that would do that for me? Now I just have to choose a better name.

Out of curiosity, why would it offend native Hindus? Mu'mineen is your exact name, but in Arabic instead of English. Is it because of how Muslims have invaded India and ruled in a horrible manner in the past?

wundermonk
06 July 2012, 01:37 AM
It's alright, I've come to terms with what I am lol.

Who may I contact to have a name change? Is there an admin that would do that for me? Now I just have to choose a better name.

Out of curiosity, why would it offend native Hindus? Mu'mineen is your exact name, but in Arabic instead of English. Is it because of how Muslims have invaded India and ruled in a horrible manner in the past?

Hi Mu'mineen:

I think your name means, "believer", yes? Unfortunately, India's experience with Islam has been/continues to be brutal. We all know that generalization about an entire set of people 1.7 Billion Muslims based on India's experience with Islam is not fair, but it is what it is. We are also human and subject to human passions.

That said, I personally am not offended by your username. Believer-ji may be. It is up to you.

PM Satay for a name change request if you have to. He is the mod.

Shuddhasattva
06 July 2012, 01:56 AM
Namaste


That's something, I think, that draws me to Dharmic faiths. Hindu gods come in various Avatars, so I can worship the one that I am drawn to the most, with the characteristics I view god as having. Buddhism focuses on the self and sometimes the Buddha, both of which are much easier to relate to than some concept of god that is "out there".

I just want to point out that the dharmic conception of God is very different; in Abrahamic faiths where God is viewed as an external power, in Dharma God is external and internal, often with emphasis on the internal.

God is never merely "out there."

This, I feel, should be a crucial platform for you to change your conceptualization of God.

Namaste

devotee
06 July 2012, 04:13 AM
That said, I personally am not offended by your username. Believer-ji may be. It is up to you.

PM Satay for a name change request if you have to. He is the mod.

I agree. :)

OM

Spiritualseeker
06 July 2012, 05:45 AM
Namaste,

I am a Muslim (Shia Ithna-Asheri Usuli), but I am seriously about done with it. I have so many issues with it, I don't even know where to start.Namaste,

Welcome to the forums. I am glad that you are here, regardless if you pursue Hinduism or stick with Islam.


There are SO many freaking rules. Now, don't get me wrong, if it truly is God's religion, I would follow them willingly, but I find it hard to believe that God is this picky. For example, you're required to pray 5 times a day and fast the month of Ramadhan. I figured that if you didn't, but started up at some point, you would simply go from being a bad Muslim to being a good Muslim. Apparently not. Prayers and fasts are like some sort of bank account where it's all or nothing. I talked to a scholar, and found out that for me to get into good standing with Allah, I would have to make up 4,745 prayers, 60 fasts, and pay $1,700 worth of rice to the needy.

Holy sh*t.Yes, this puts people off a lot. The reason is because the rules are very idealistic. You have to constantly strive with effort and never are able to be a perfect muslim. I have been around many muslims and I did not find one that did not struggle with this. As you said there is a bank account when doing deeds. You have to check every niyah (intention) and make sure you are doing things correctly. In your case it would have to be in accordance with the Ithna Ashari Usuli sect of Shia Islam. So you have to make sure you are following the Qur'an based on what the 12 Imams have given in ahadith such as al-Kafi and elsewhere. It creates more noise with all the details of everything.


I can't do that. This is only for two years of living a bad life. Can you imagine for someone that has gone for 20 years?! I'm willing to pay for my "sins" by being punished for them, because I recognize that every action has consequences, but this is borderline ridiculous. I know what you mean. If you do not make up the missed Salat you will be doomed. I remember having to do this. I would sometimes do prayer after prayer at 3am in the morning to try to catch up my Salat, but still I failed.


That's another thing. Why is Heaven/Hell an absolute? What happens to good people that weren't Muslims? What about Muslims that fulfill all their requirements but are bad people in general? I really like the concept of eternal bliss in Jannah (heaven), but why is it an absolute? Why is it all or nothing?This is the problematic dogma of Abrahamic faiths that suggest the "non-believers" will go to hell eternally. What is interesting is if you trace all the Abrahamic faiths back to Judaism you will find that the early Jews worshipped multiple gods which included Yahweh and Asherah. Yahweh being the god of the bible and Asherah being the Goddess of Eden. So it is odd that their faith later changed to a monotheistic religion due to their racial pride in their tribal deity Yahweh and dropped all other gods. How can these people say all else are going to hell, when it was their ancestors that came up with the concept of Yahweh, Asherah, and the garden of Eden, before any concept of some monotheistic deity. So who is really going to hell, when they rely on such innovated way of thinking.


There are MANY other issues I have with Islam, too many to name. I still feel a deep connection to Islam and the Imams (especially Imam Ali and Imam Mahdi), but living like a good Muslim is impossible unless you live in Iran or something, where it's the social norm to do everything perfectly according to Islamic law.Imam Ali has some interesting quotes attributed to him that seems to suggest an inward quest, but I still cannot get passed the fact of him murdering homosexuals and burning alive those who worshiped him during his reign. This is testified by Shia historians and Sunni. This is the famous narration in which people worshiped Ali as if he was allah, so Ali had a ditch dug and he put these innovators (people of Bidah) in the ditch and set them on fire. This is justified both in Sunni and Shia hadiths. The Sunni have some criticism from Ibn Abbas, ibn abbas objection was not because Ali killed them, but because he used fire. Ibn Abbas said that only allah punishes with fire. That is why when Ali was burning them alive, they said that he must be allah since he is using fire. I find this such a harsh inhumane way of stopping an innovation, regardless if it is Shirk (making partners with allah). But I also did like ali when I was in Islam, it wasnt until later that I started rethinking all of Islam and its history.

The biggest obstacle you face is fear (if you have any fear). The reason I say this is because I remember being afraid to leave Islam due to the fear of eternal damnation. You just have to take that leap if you choose to. Trust me, it is much brighter on the other side :)

Om Namah Shivaya

JaiMaaDurga
06 July 2012, 09:41 AM
Namaste,

First, welcome to Mu'mineen (or whatever you might be renaming yourself);
what I am reminded of by this thread, is the history of humanity's craving
for simplification, of the tragic peril of its mismanagement...
For here I come to read the utterly bizarre tale of worshipers who claim to
have been right all along, because the man they've deified is burning them alive-
and since "only God punishes with fire", he must therefore be God; of course,
if he were indeed God, they would be doing no wrong in worshiping him, and
therefore would not be subject to such a horrifying execution... not to
mention the "problem" was not the mass killing of people who didn't believe
the proper thing, it was using an execution method reserved for God?

This is what the human craving for simplicity can lead to. "Too many shades
of grey, this life, this world, it is all too complicated!" This cry goes out,
and it is heard and eagerly answered: the insane, and those who crave power
through manipulation, are more than ready to paint the world in black and white...

Consider how this can be seen even in the seemingly banal scenario of
a Western supermarket shopper, looking at toilet paper; the aisle contains
dozens of choices, far more than is logically sensible for such a basic product.
Yet, this serves the purpose of information overload, of creating anxiety
within the shopper, which will lead to an emotional, rather than a logical
decision, training the shopper to "give up", and buy what toilet paper they're told to.
There are people who are fanatically loyal to one brand of cola over "the other brand",
who have never asked themselves why carbonated sugar-water should be
so important to them in the first place.
The false dichotomy is no endangered species...

So- in light of this human tendency, and the highly challenging and complex
nature of any serious metaphysical enquiry, it becomes less of a mystery
as to why simplistic extremism endures. Sanatana Dharma rewards more
contemplation, more investigation, of the "big questions", instead of punishing;
and I can absolutely promise I will not dig a ditch and burn you
alive in it if you disagree with me!;)

JAI MATA DI

Jainarayan
06 July 2012, 09:51 AM
Namaste JaiMaaDurga


...For here I come to read the utterly bizarre tale of worshipers who claim to
have been right all along, because the man they've deified is burning them alive-
and since "only God punishes with fire", he must therefore be God; of course,
if he were indeed God, they would be doing no wrong in worshiping him, ...

I wonder if anyone has ever done a study or delved into the psychology (or psychopathology) of the human need to believe such things. For example, whether it's true or not, I've read that our innate fear and/or dislike of snakes is from our primitive past when as small tree-dwelling mammals, our ancestors were preyed upon by snakes. There must be something hardwired from something that causes roughly 50% (3.6 billion Christians and Muslims) of humans to believe in such a God.

Eastern Mind
06 July 2012, 10:03 AM
Vannakkam: In my humble opinion, its just one thing ... fear. It is a chakra of consciousness below the muladhara. Real religion only starts at the muladhara.

Aum Namasivaya

Jainarayan
06 July 2012, 10:58 AM
Namaste EM.

So if I understand correctly, it is the seat of kundalini, which is dormant, and not in control of spiritual awareness. If that's the case, Ignorance is the twin of Fear. Or did I totally mangle that? I must delve into the chakras more.

ShivaIsLord
07 July 2012, 12:30 AM
.
You are correct, Mu'mineen means believer. I have had it changed, however, to my current name. I have no problem with this, because a Mu'mineen implies a belief in Islam, which although I may still have, is severely waning. Every thing I learn about Sanatana Dharma, takes something away from my devotion to Islam. This is not necessarily a bad thing. lol


.
Namaste,

Thank you for explaining that. Perhaps I am getting the wrong impression of god in Sanatana Dharma? From what I've gathered, there is one god (Brahman) that permeates all. There are different aspects of the one Brahman, and that's where we get all of the other gods (Vishnu & Shiva with all their avataras being the most popular). Therefore Brahman is merely "out there" and we can only reach him through the "minor" gods, which are facets of Him. Is this thinking flawed, or am I correct?


.
Namaste,

Thank you for your very detailed post. I agree with almost everything you said in the first part. It is not merely enough to go through with the "rituals" such as salah, zakah, hajj, sawm, etc, but you must also being performing them with the right intentions. The problem with this is, with salah being required 5 times a day, there is no way I can guarantee that I am in a perfectly spiritual mood when the time for prayer comes around. I can guarantee that there will be many times where I will be doing it, not because I'm in the mood to pray, but because I have to. I really don't like this attitude, honestly.

As for the ahadith attributed to Ali, are you serious?!?! That's incredible. I had never heard of such things. If you don't mind, could you either post them here or PM them to me? I'd love to read more about this. When I was taught that Ali was infallible, I truly believed it. And although these actions may not be considered failing in the most staunch Islamic idealism, I don't think they're right either. If someone worshiped me, I would be slightly appreciative, and slightly amused. Maybe a little worried about their mental health. I certainly wouldn't condemn them to death for shirk! And a terrible death at that, bring burned alive?! I can't think of a much worse way to go.


.
I had never really considered it from that angle before, honestly. But it makes perfect sense. A lot of westerners complain that Islam is complicated, but it really isn't. Islam can't even hold a candle to the complexity that is Hinduism. I was overwhelmed at first, and I still am! I don't even think that I am grasping the basic concepts well enough right now!! The studying that it will take to learn even the absolute basics of Hinduism would be enough to become a scholar of Islam, and get the title of Ayatollah! But choice is not necessarily a bad thing . . . I don't know why, but I am drawn to Shiva (as you can probably guess from my new username). Is Vishnu going to condemn me to the fiery pits of hell for it? Of course not! Vishnu is surely not that picky, arrogant, and selfish. Why is Allah, then? Same with the god of Christianity and Judaism. And they have the nerve to claim that Hindus give their gods human characteristics?! Maybe, but none of the bad ones. lol


.
I have not heart of that before, but it sounds very interesting. I never considered it like that before. Despite the fact that I've always doubted the whole "garden of eden" story, I always imagined that the reason we humans have an aversion to snakes is because of Shaitan (satan) taking the form of a snake. I will have to reconsider.

Shuddhasattva
07 July 2012, 04:32 AM
Namaste


Thank you for explaining that. Perhaps I am getting the wrong impression of god in Sanatana Dharma? From what I've gathered, there is one god (Brahman) that permeates all. There are different aspects of the one Brahman, and that's where we get all of the other gods (Vishnu & Shiva with all their avataras being the most popular). Therefore Brahman is merely "out there" and we can only reach him through the "minor" gods, which are facets of Him. Is this thinking flawed, or am I correct? Since we are starting with the view of the individual body-mind complex, to whom other things are external and "out there," especially when they are so transcendent as to be invisibly permeating the "out there," let's examine this more closely.

One must understand the 'everywhere' that Brahman is pervading is both within, and without. The human body may seem like a small amount of area to conditioned, embodied consciousness, but it contains a vast amount of atoms, subatomic particles, etc. etc.

Universes within universes within universes - surely you have contemplated such things.

Now, what is selfhood here? Brahman is pure awareness; awareness is a fundamental, innate property of the universe. We see in biological life that matter organized itself, through energy and information, under the influence of negentropy. into more complex structures capable of processing information chemically, bioacoustically and electromagnetically, thus giving rise to a simulated form of consciousness - the individual ego.

Now, what is occurring here? Consciousness, brahman, that which is beyond space, time, matter or energy, is being expressed on a lower, limited level in the material sphere, represented in a body.

The word most commonly used to describe this in the vedas is Tanu (see JR Gardner @vedavid), a spreading presence confined to a particular area or type of substance. It is used more often to refer to Selfhood than Atman, though the latter is almost exclusively used in Vedanta. This is important because the Vedas lay the ground work for the self-cosmology that is a hallmark of Hinduism, and will become more clear later in this post.

The atman, the core of selfhood that is an emanation of Brahman, is not, however, confined to a particular point, or arbitrary collection of points, in space, or for that matter, time. Rather, the entire material universe is composed of the collective energies of these atmans, the singular energy of the paramatman.

The para (meaning transcendent, or supreme) atman is the "supersoul" the one soul from which all nominally individual souls dependently proceed from. Both the paramatman and the atman dwell at the innermost core of the individual being, called metaphorically, the heart. In the Upanishads, this is famously likened to two birds sitting in a tree, one eating the fruit of karma, the other silently witnessing.

Paramatman is the infinitesimal manifestation which is a 'concentration' or 'representation' of the infinite; brahman. In reality, the paramatman is everywhere, but we take care to identify its subjectively highest seat as the core of the being - all beings. In reality, likewise by identifying (whether as, with or beholden unto) the Supreme Self the Self is Universalized and experienced in everything as a permeative quality - back to Tanu - that is no longer confined - Atanu.

The individual soul neither the body nor the mind, it has no limitation as such, it is openly expressed as the noumenon behind all phenomenon.

The Svetasvatara Upanishad, 5.9 says:


vAlAgra-zata-bhAgasya zatadha kalpitasya ca
bhAgo jIvas sa vijJeyas sa cAnantyAya kalpate"That soul the size of a hundredth part of a hundredth part of a hair, he, the potentially infinite, is to be known."

In the context this is said it can apply both to the Paramatman and the Atman, to the extent that there is even a meaningful difference.

As devotee has beautifully said about form and formlessness, such concepts of part, or partlessness themselves also become extinct, meaningless. To consider such a thing in materially bound terms of quantity and quality is fundamentally limited.

This is truly the great triumph of Hinduism. Idolatry to an Abrahamic is the use of a physical object to represent the divine. Idolatry, according to Hinduism, consists of cognizing and concretizing physical objects to be non-divine, rather than experiencing the divine which underlies all objects, subjects and experiences. So long as we are engaged in the material experience, rather than the divine one, it is idolatry.

The mirroring of the paramatman in the atman is also reflected in the mirroring of the cosmos (brahmanda) in the body (purusha). What really divides your awareness between the "out there" and the "in here"? It is the membrane of the ego, like that of a cell wall, filtering chemicals so as to preserve its own separateness from the external environment. The psychological membrane draws a veil over our minds that differentiates between the external and the internal, the objective and the subjective.

The body is held to be a microcosm of the universe; the entire universe is represented in the subtle bodies within. Is this not all brahman?

==

The above may be influenced by advaitin bias although most of it is applicable across the different philosophical views. Take it as you will; there are many viable paths.

The Svetasvatara, along with the rest of the major upanishasd, may be good reading for you in this period: I, and I think many others, would consider the Upanishads to be the best entry point to learn more Hindu philosophy/theology, perhaps along with the Bhagavad Gita.

Namaste

Spiritualseeker
07 July 2012, 09:07 AM
Namaste,

Thank you for your very detailed post. I agree with almost everything you said in the first part. It is not merely enough to go through with the "rituals" such as salah, zakah, hajj, sawm, etc, but you must also being performing them with the right intentions. The problem with this is, with salah being required 5 times a day, there is no way I can guarantee that I am in a perfectly spiritual mood when the time for prayer comes around. I can guarantee that there will be many times where I will be doing it, not because I'm in the mood to pray, but because I have to. I really don't like this attitude, honestly.

As for the ahadith attributed to Ali, are you serious?!?! That's incredible. I had never heard of such things. If you don't mind, could you either post them here or PM them to me? I'd love to read more about this. When I was taught that Ali was infallible, I truly believed it. And although these actions may not be considered failing in the most staunch Islamic idealism, I don't think they're right either. If someone worshiped me, I would be slightly appreciative, and slightly amused. Maybe a little worried about their mental health. I certainly wouldn't condemn them to death for shirk! And a terrible death at that, bring burned alive?! I can't think of a much worse way to go.
Namaste,

Here is the Sunni narration first:

Abu al-Nu‘man Muhammad ibn al-Fadl related to us: Hammad ibn Zayd related to us from Ayyub from ‘‘Ikrimah who said: “Some Zanadiqah were brought to ‘Ali and he burnt them. This reached Ibn ‘Abbas and he said: I would not have burnt them because of the prohibition by the Messenger of Allah (saw): ‘Do not punish with the punishment of Allah.’ I would have killed them in accordance with the word of the Messenger of Allah (saw): ‘Whoever changed his religion kill him’.” (Sahih Bukhari)

Ahmad ibn ‘Abdah al-Dabbi al-Basri related to us: ‘Abd al-Wahhab al-Thaqafi related to us: Ayyub related to us from ‘Ikrimah that ‘Ali burned some people who abandoned Islam. This reached Ibn ‘Abbas and he said: I would have killed them in accordance with the word of the Messenger of Allah (saw): ‘Whoever changed his religion kill him’. I would not have burnt them in view of the word of the Messenger of God: ‘Do not punish with the punishment of Allah.’ This reached ‘Ali and he said: Ibn ‘Abbas has spoken the truth” (Sunan Tirmidhi)

I am having difficulty finding the Shia version of this particular hadith (I no longer have my Shia books), what I know is that the Shia do not accept that Ibn Abbas criticized Imam Ali on the issue, but they also accept that Ali burned them alive and that it was a fair judgement. Here is the Shia version of Ali allowing murder of those who commit sodomy:

Once Khalid bin Valeed wrote to Abu Bakr that there was a man who was in the habit of getting the act of Sodomy committed on him (the - man). Abu Bakr who was the leader then asked for Hazrat Ali (A)'s advice in the matter saying that the Arabs viewed the cutting of a person into pieces a very bad thing. Hazrat Ali (A) advised that the man in question should be burnt to death. The punishment was carried out accordingly. (Arjahul Matalib, p 126).
Similary during the leadership of Omar two men were seen committing the act of sodomy. When apprehended, one of them ran away, but the other was caught and brought to the court of Omar.
Omar when sought advice of the people in the matter, . All proposed different punishments to be awarded to the accused. Omar then turned to Hazrat Ali (A) and asked for his advice in deciding the case according to the divine law. Hazrat Ali (A) advised Omar to behead the man. When the punishment was carried out according to the advice of Hazrat Ali (A) and under the orders of Omar and the body of the accused was being carried away, Hazrat Ali (A) stopped the people and said that there was another punishment yet which was to be awarded to the man who had committed such a serious crime. He then ordered the people to collect fire-wood and burn the dead body of the man.. The orders of Hazrat Ali (A) were accordingly carried out with the consent of Omar. (Wafi, vol. 9, p. 51).
Hazra Imam Sadiq (A) has said :
“None from among men, who considers sodomy a correct action and having religious sanction, passes his life on earth without being hit by one of the stones from Allah by which He hit the nation of Lot, and he dies of it, but the people do not see it.”
(Qasasul Ambia, p. 162).


Ali also allowed stoning to death of adultery which was the norm in Islamic law.

It is very difficult at first to grasp some of these things, especially when Ali is seen as a hero and great leader. I admired him greatly. I also admired Sistani. Later with time I just grew away from it when I began meditating and placing more emphasis on that than Salat. I remember I would get the Salat out of the way so I could meditate. I felt so guilty at times, but I could not stop meditating. We all have to find our paths. I hope you find yours. You have a rational mind and even greater than that rational mind, you have a deeper intuition that can guide you to God.


Om Namah Shivaya

satay
09 July 2012, 09:57 AM
Admin Note

namaste,
Please keep it on topic and save everyone some time.