Hypothetical scenario for those who believe Varna is by birth

[wundermonk]

Here is a simple hypothetical:

Communists, along with Saudi Wahabis and Evangelical Xians in the US have come to a common understanding that the first religion that needs to be destroyed is Hinduism. Their mutual contradictions can be sorted out later. Yoga is evil, Hinduism does not recognize Adam/Eve, does not believe in Jeebus or old Mo or Karl Marx or eternal hellfire where Allah will roast our skin, regrow our skin and reburn us just for fun and giggles.

So, the Commies along with Mohammedans and Xians go about

(1)nuking India and all of its 1.2 Billion citizens
(2)identifying each and every "born" Brahmin/Shudra/Kshatriya/Vaishya anywhere else on earth and killing them along with their children.

Question:

After the above happens, will there be another "born" Brahmin or Shudra or Kshatriya or Vaishya? Yes/No? Please justify your answer with reasoning.

My follow up question(s) will be after you answer the question above.

[Ganeshprasad]

Pranam

i think it is a wonderful hypothesis, there again pigs may fly.

why should i worry either way, it is not my creation, i am afraid you will have to ask him/her from whence all originates.

Jai Shree Krishna

[satay]

namaste WM,



After the above happens, will there be another "born" Brahmin or Shudra or Kshatriya or Vaishya? Yes/No? Please justify your answer with reasoning.



Parsuram annihilated the entire world, kshatriyas along with it 21 times. Yet here we are. So my answer to your hypothetical question is a hypothetical 'Yes' and my reasoning is 'it has been done atleast 21 times before.'

[PARAM]

Pranam

i think it is a wonderful hypothesis, there again pigs may fly.

why should i worry either way, it is not my creation, i am afraid you will have to ask him/her from whence all originates.

Jai Shree Krishna

You are a person who understand and make others understand, I have high respect for you, but sometimes you comes to your heart and even defend aDhaRMi view from somebody who just claim to be a Hindu despite being anti-Hindu. We must accept the way that ॐ has shown to us, not to accepts the way aDhaRMis claims on DhaRMa GranThaM.



namaste WM,

Parsuram annihilated the entire world, kshatriyas along with it 21 times. Yet here we are. So my answer to your hypothetical question is a hypothetical 'Yes' and my reasoning is 'it has been done atleast 21 times before.'

Then how come same clans of kShatRiyas still exist?

This is a rotten Islamic claim that Parsuram annihilated the entire world. ParShuram was an aVaTARs of ViShNu, his birth was for the destruction of aDhaRMa, he never killed any innocent. He killed 21 evil kings and not killed kShatRiyas 21 times, even in Valmiki Ramayana Parshuram is mentioned as killer of terrorists.

Parshuram gifted the Shiva Dhanush to kShatRiya king Janak, he trained and taught Bheesham the best of warfare, and fought against him for a kShatRiya girl Amba. When he come to know Karna was a kShatRiya's son, he cursed Karna for cheating the Guru but did not killed him, he gave Vijay Dhanush to Karna and never demanded any Guru Dakshina.

[philosoraptor]

Here is a simple hypothetical:

Communists, along with Saudi Wahabis and Evangelical Xians in the US have come to a common understanding that the first religion that needs to be destroyed is Hinduism. Their mutual contradictions can be sorted out later. Yoga is evil, Hinduism does not recognize Adam/Eve, does not believe in Jeebus or old Mo or Karl Marx or eternal hellfire where Allah will roast our skin, regrow our skin and reburn us just for fun and giggles.

So, the Commies along with Mohammedans and Xians go about

(1)nuking India and all of its 1.2 Billion citizens
(2)identifying each and every "born" Brahmin/Shudra/Kshatriya/Vaishya anywhere else on earth and killing them along with their children.

Question:

After the above happens, will there be another "born" Brahmin or Shudra or Kshatriya or Vaishya? Yes/No? Please justify your answer with reasoning.

My follow up question(s) will be after you answer the question above.

Pranams.

I would say yes, for the following reasons:

1) At the end of every four yugas, there is a partial devastation in which the earth is repopulated after the death of all sinful beings by Kalki Avatar.

2) The prajapatis are not destroyed in the above devastation and our scriptures indicate that it is from them from whom human beings are born. Thus, it is reasonable to conclude that they would repopulate the earth with brahmins, kshatriyas, vaisyas, and shudras.

3) Satay already gave the example of the kshatriya varna surviving despite being annihilated by Parashurama 21 times

As an aside, I can see somethings never change, and there are those who insist on shutting detractors up by calling them Muslims or their views as "Islamic." Oh dear....

regards,

[PARAM]

Pranams.

I would say yes, for the following reasons:


1) At the end of every four yugas, there is a partial devastation in which the earth is repopulated after the death of all sinful beings by Kalki Avatar.

Death of all Zombies


The prajapatis are not destroyed in the above devastation and our scriptures indicate that it is from them from whom human beings are born. Thus, it is reasonable to conclude that they would repopulate the earth with brahmins, kshatriyas, vaisyas, and shudras.

Prajapatis are not adharmis, all brahmins, kshatriyas, vaisyas, and shudras will come on Varna of Guna-Karma-Svabhava, without any birth differences.

3)
Satay already gave the example of the kshatriya varna surviving despite being annihilated by Parashurama 21 times

Parshuram was Vishnu, he never killed any innocent.


As an aside, I can see somethings never change, and there are those who insist on shutting detractors up by calling them Muslims or their views as "Islamic." Oh dear....

regards,
My answer to a detractor's response is a shutting "YES".

[satay]

Then how come same clans of kShatRiyas still exist?


ahem...a reminder, there is something called, God?



This is a rotten Islamic claim that Parsuram annihilated the entire world.


So, now I am also posting stuff from muslim sites?
:dunno:

[charitra]

The hypothesis is not feasible because varna is not bybirth. Namaste.

[wundermonk]

i am afraid you will have to ask him/her from whence all originates.

Krishna has already answered this for us in BG 18:40 that his classification is for entire humanity - not born Hindu Indians alone.

:)

[wundermonk]

namaste WM,



Parsuram annihilated the entire world, kshatriyas along with it 21 times. Yet here we are. So my answer to your hypothetical question is a hypothetical 'Yes' and my reasoning is 'it has been done atleast 21 times before.'

Namaste satay,

It has been done before but this thread is about the HOW of it.

Firstly, what reincarnates? It is the self. In its essence, does the self have any attributes? Which of these attributes mark it as a Brahmin/Sudra/Kshatriya/Vaishya? It is the play of Prakriti (Sattva, Rajas and Tamas).

In the scenario that I outlined, we only have "Mlechha" selves (this is an oxymoron anyway because the self is beyond the classifications of Prakriti - but I will go along with this for the sake of argument). What happens to these selves during Pralaya?

[wundermonk]

1) At the end of every four yugas, there is a partial devastation in which the earth is repopulated after the death of all sinful beings by Kalki Avatar.

Repopulated with which selves? The self is what transmigrates.



2) The prajapatis are not destroyed in the above devastation and our scriptures indicate that it is from them from whom human beings are born. Thus, it is reasonable to conclude that they would repopulate the earth with brahmins, kshatriyas, vaisyas, and shudras.

Here again, let us take the Purusha Suktam which you are referring to. See my question to Satay. In the scenario I outlined, there are only "Mlechha" selves. What happens to these selves during the pralaya and during the next round of srishti?

[philosoraptor]

Param, once again you have ascribed words to me in quotations which I never said.

I would appreciate it if you maintained at least a modicum of intellectual honesty.

thanks,

[philosoraptor]

Repopulated with which selves? The self is what transmigrates.

Here again, let us take the Purusha Suktam which you are referring to. See my question to Satay. In the scenario I outlined, there are only "Mlechha" selves. What happens to these selves during the pralaya and during the next round of srishti?

Pranams WM,

The self is not brahmin, kshatriya, vaisha, or shudra, but merely takes a position in one of these varnas based on its previous guna and karma. Once the bodies of these jIvas is destroyed, they go on to take another body based on guna and karma. That guna and karma need not be based on the life immediately previous - it could also be from guna/karma from remote lifetimes. For example, one could get a current birth as a mleccha due to some offense he created in a previous lifetime, but then later get a birth as a dvija due to unrewarded good karmas the he has also got. Remember also that death at the hands of Lord Vishnu destroys many of one's previous karmas - this is what happened to demons like Putana, Kamsa, Sishupala, etc.

Also, there are is an unending supply of jIvas who are falling from deva-loka to be reborn as humans, as well as jIvas who are coming up from Naraka and also from animal/plant life to become humans. So, there is nothing all difficult to believe that true brahmins, kshatriyas, vaisyas, and shudras could be repopulated on this earth through the actions of the prajapatis.

regards,

[satay]

namaste WM,
Like I said before, you cannot just look at one aspect like varnasram from Gita without looking at karma and reincarnation, you have to look at reincarnation and karma along with it. They are all inter-related topics. Until you examine all of these interdependent things together. this varna thing will confuse you.

Instead of trying to clear your doubts on the Internet on this topic, may I suggest you talk to a real person who understands Gita?

[wundermonk]

The self is not brahmin, kshatriya, vaisha, or shudra, but merely takes a position in one of these varnas based on its previous guna and karma.

Sure. In the infinite past lifetime of the self, it has assumed different adventitious attributes, one of which is its varna. Stating that one's varna is fixed for a lifetime is meaningless - especially when the same self reincarnates. Now, what is the classification of humans that you propose. Is it the following:

Brahmin
Vaishya
Kshatriya
Shudra
Mlechha

Is the above collectively exhaustive? If yes, I would like you to provide the causal factors leading to Mlechhas. Specifically, I am looking for the relationship between the three gunas that would make a self (that is beyond the gunas) take birth in a "Mlechha" family.


For example, one could get a current birth as a mleccha due to some offense he created in a previous lifetime,

Forgive me, but I need to ask you a question. What is your race/citizenship? What is your current country of residence? Do you seriously believe that all non-Indian Hindus take birth in the families they do precisely because they have done offenses in a previous lifetime?



Also, there are is an unending supply of jIvas who are falling from deva-loka to be reborn as humans, as well as jIvas who are coming up from Naraka and also from animal/plant life to become humans. So, there is nothing all difficult to believe that true brahmins, kshatriyas, vaisyas, and shudras could be repopulated on this earth through the actions of the prajapatis.regards,

The action of Prajapati is at the beginning of a cycle of Srishti.

So, basically, in the scenario I outlined, until Pralaya and the next Srishti, there cannot be a "born" B/K/S/V. There can only be Mlechhas born again and again. Yes?

[wundermonk]

namaste WM,
Like I said before, you cannot just look at one aspect like varnasram from Gita without looking at karma and reincarnation, you have to look at reincarnation and karma along with it. They are all inter-related topics. Until you examine all of these interdependent things together. this varna thing will confuse you.

Instead of trying to clear your doubts on the Internet on this topic, may I suggest you talk to a real person who understands Gita?

I am extremely disappointed with your response.

[PARAM]

ahem...a reminder, there is something called, God?


Who was Parshuram, Bhagwan Parshuram not God, and he surrounded only to Ram, his own alter ego. Who was Ram?



So, now I am also posting stuff from muslim sites?
:dunno:
Muslims+Christians+Communists
I asked you to clarify but you have this to reply.



Param, once again you have ascribed words to me in quotations which I never said.

I would appreciate it if you maintained at least a modicum of intellectual honesty.

thanks,

No I put my answers with your quote, everyone who can read understand this .


Remember also that death at the hands of Lord Vishnu destroys many of one's previous karmas - this is what happened to demons like Putana, Kamsa, Sishupala, etc.

You claimed that Krishna let Ashwatthama go for being Brahmin by birth, do you believe Krishna was justified? Or this was something Vishnu did not destroyed his previous karmas?


Do you believe in Krishna? Do you respect who are Brahmins by birth only?




I will never care if I am becoming a laughing stock by replying this way.
People laugh at me when I chant Jay Shee Ram, and when I tell them laugh at Allah, their laugh then stops.

[satay]

Seriously. Please, this topic is consuming you.

Why worry so much about varna? If you don't believe in it anyway, what does it matter?

I for one will not give up my varna or caste or jati no matter how loud mullahs, christians or hindus like you shout. If anti varna people don't like it, that's not my problem.



I am extremely disappointed with your response.

[satay]

namaste Param,



Muslims+Christians+Communists
I asked you to clarify but you have this to reply.


Now I am cummunist? :dunno:

Please make up your mind as to what insult are you going to use for me.

[PARAM]

Seriously. Please, this topic is consuming you.

Why worry so much about varna? If you don't believe in it anyway, what does it matter?

I for one will not give up my varna or caste or jati no matter how loud mullahs, christians or hindus like you shout. If anti varna people don't like it, that's not my problem

I believe in the Varna, it is made by ॐ
I know the existence of caste, but it is not Varna.


Now do you also believe that animals were Slaughtered during Vedic Yagyas?




namaste Param,

Now I am cummunist? :dunno:

Please make up your mind as to what insult are you going to use for me.


You blamed Parshuram for annihilating the world 21 times, did't you? To take this as insult to you, but what is insult to Parshuram?

May we never speak anything which is against dignity of the deities. (Samaveda - 610)

Satay you forget there are two topics going on - Slaughter of animals and Birth or Deeds as Varna. Why didn't you took it seriously? You are the Admin here and this is your duty.

[satay]

namaste Param,

I think we have reached an impasse.


I believe in the Varna, it is made by ॐ
I know the existence of caste, but it is not Varna.


Now do you also believe that animals were Slaughtered during Vedic Yagyas?






You blamed Parshuram for annihilating the world 21 times, did't you? To take this as insult to you, but what is insult to Parshuram?

May we never speak anything which is against dignity of the deities. (Samaveda - 610)

Satay you forget there are two topics going on - Slaughter of animals and Birth or Deeds as Varna. Why didn't you took it seriously? You are the Admin here and this is your duty.

[Vasa]

Namaste.

As i see it, Wundermunks question is:

If only born-Indian Hindus can belong to the varna system, and all people of Indian ancestry are killed, how can any future people be born into a varna?

So far I've seen dancing around but not a direct answer.

The term "mlechha" itself curiously is not found in the Vedas, and was used later to describe someone who didn't follow the Vedas, which would include people who claim to be Hindu but don't follow the Vedas. It was not intended to be a blanket term to describe all races of earth who don't happen to be born on the Indian subcontinent.

If you want to be racist, just admit it, don't use scripture to justify it.

Finally, I may be biased since according to the definition being bandied about here I am a mlechha, but to be honest I'd much rather be a mlechha and be punished by my access to clean water, hygienic supplies, plenty of food, clean air, a job, and a nice place to live than be rewarded by being starving and oppressed in India. But then again, at least I could say I was a Brahmin!

I used to wonder why people in India would convert to Islam or Christianity, but if the majority of the dvijas hold this kind of attitude suddenly it makes sense.

[satay]

namsate,

Last post on this topic (for a while).

Varna is by birth otherwise you are saying that birth happens at random and thus you are denying the existence of law of karma that is in effect, existence of parkriti and influence of guna and by denying that you are also implying that there is no reincarnation. Thus essentially this leads us to maleccha theories of one life, one external God who does things randomly, illogically.

Now someone here gave examples of some people who were born into certain varna but fell short of that. So? It happens everyday, all the time. What's new there? Varna by birth doesn't guarantee that the person 'will' perform the perscribed duties. This is why hindusim is not fatalism i.e. our destiny is not pre-written. So yeah, go ahead and don't perform your perscribed duties, no problem. Law of karma will take care of you in future and based on what you did you will be in an approrpriate womb.

Those outside of varnasram that are performing dharmic duties even with their current sudra or even worse Maleccha birth, will in future get the appropriate womb, again law of karma is in effect.

But perhaps God, law of karma, reincarnation all these things are nonsense in this hypothetical scenario?

:cool1:

[Believer]

Namaste,
Finally, I may be biased since according to the definition being bandied about here I am a mlechha, but to be honest I'd much rather be a mlechha and be punished by my access to clean water, hygienic supplies, plenty of food, clean air, a job, and a nice place to live than be rewarded by being starving and oppressed in India. But then again, at least I could say I was a Brahmin!What a horrible choice to make - you would give up being born a Brahmin in India, to getting some clean water/air, food and some toilet paper (hygienic supplies)? :) A better scenario is to be born as an exalted brahmin there and then relocate to the West for your material needs. You would have the best of both worlds.


I used to wonder why people in India would convert to Islam or Christianity, but if the majority of the dvijas hold this kind of attitude suddenly it makes sense.Oh, we will just stay in the deep slumber mode and blame the conversions on the poaching by "bad" people. It is lot easier to 'fix the blame', than to pro-actively stop the conversions. ;) When common sense and pragmatism yield to a biased translation of the scriptures, no one wins.

Pranam.

[Vasa]

Namaste,What a horrible choice to make - .
Namaste.

It is terrible isn't it? But apparently this wouldn't be the first lifetime I've made horrible choices, or so I'm being told.

[wundermonk]

Varna is by birth otherwise you are saying that birth happens at random and thus you are denying the existence of law of karma

Surely, if the selves are NOT differentiated prior to birth then indeed allocation of souls to newborns is random. But with Karma, the allocation of souls to newborns is NOT random.

Now, the disagreement we are having is whether the Karma concept invariably has to lead to Varna by birth. Neither can I see that this has to invariably follow nor do I believe there is sruthi/BG support for this.


that is in effect, existence of parkriti and influence of guna and by denying that you are also implying that there is no reincarnation.

This does not follow. Influence by gunas is INDEED what determines one's varna. How? Here (http://hindudharmaforums.com/showpost.php?p=41787&postcount=11) is an old but still useful post. Now, what interaction between the gunas leads one to be born in a "mlechha" family?


Thus essentially this leads us to maleccha theories of one life, one external God who does things randomly, illogically.

I agree that absent Karma, allocation of selves to newborns can only happen randomly and since God will NOT do things randomly, we can together disregard this illogical concept.

[satay]

Namaste WM,

Honestly, most of your post didn't make any sense to me. I can't help you with what you 'believe'. It is your own karma that you have to work out by yourself. Just like I am working out mine. It is our own burden to carry as you mentioned in another thread.


Neither can I see that this has to invariably follow nor do I believe there is sruthi/BG support for this.



Recently, a friend of mine reminded me not to discuss this knowledge as it is meant to be secretive but I ignored his advice. :rolleyes:

May I suggest you read sarabhanga or atanu's post on hdf when you get some time? Example the thread below.
http://hindudharmaforums.com/showpost.php?p=20436&postcount=11


With this I leave this discussion. I am sorry if I have lost some friends today.

[Ganeshprasad]

Pranam Param ji


You are a person who understand and make others understand, I have high respect for you, but sometimes you comes to your heart and even defend aDhaRMi view from somebody who just claim to be a Hindu despite being anti-Hindu. We must accept the way that ॐ has shown to us, not to accepts the way aDhaRMis claims on DhaRMa GranThaM.

Well thank you, it is not necessary we should agree on everything, that doesn't make anyone aDharmi either. My views on Varna has always been guna, karma birth based.
Why do you think anyone here is anti Hindu simply because he or she does not agree with your point of view?
perhaps if you can show that the way of ॐ has been transgressed we can discuss.





Then how come same clans of kShatRiyas still exist?If you cared to understand what OP want to discuss you might appreciate the answer.



This is a rotten Islamic claim that Parsuram annihilated the entire world. ParShuram was an aVaTARs of ViShNu, his birth was for the destruction of aDhaRMa, he never killed any innocent. He killed 21 evil kings and not killed kShatRiyas 21 times, even in Valmiki Ramayana Parshuram is mentioned as killer of terrorists.
Not every tough passage in shastra is work of Islamic bigots.

here is what Mahabharat says;
"Suteji said, 'Listen, O ye Brahmanas, to the sacred descriptions I utter O ye best of men, ye deserve to hear of the place known as Samanta-panchaka. In the interval between the Treta and Dwapara Yugas, Rama (the son of Jamadagni) great among all who have borne arms, urged by impatience of wrongs, repeatedly smote the noble race of Kshatriyas. And when that fiery meteor, by his own valour, annihilated the entire tribe of the Kshatriyas, he formed at Samanta-panchaka five lakes of blood.

Just in case the translation is not true see the Sanskrit yourself.
Book 1
Chapter 2



1 [रसयग]
समन्तपञ्चकम इति यद उक्तं सूतनन्दन
एतत सर्वं यथान्यायं शरॊतुम इच्छामहे वयम
2 [स]
शुश्रूषा यदि वॊ विप्रा बरुवतश च कथाः शुभाः
समन्तपञ्चकाख्यं च शरॊतुम अर्हथ सत्तमाः
3 तरेता दवापरयॊः संधौ रामः शस्त्रभृतां वरः
असकृत पार्थिवं कषत्रं जघानामर्ष चॊदितः
4 स सर्वं कषत्रम उत्साद्य सववीर्येणानल दयुतिः
समन्तपञ्चके पञ्च चकार रुधिरह्रदान

I am sure you know why he did what he did.

Jai Shree Krishna

[PARAM]

Varna is by birth otherwise you are saying that birth happens at random and thus you are denying the existence of law of karma that is in effect, existence of parkriti and influence of guna and by denying that you are also implying that there is no reincarnation. Thus essentially this leads us to maleccha theories of one life, one external God who does things randomly, illogically.

You didn’t answered my previous question, it is you who is denying the existence of law of karma. What will you call those who are converted to Islam despite being born in Hindu clans? All Muslims were Hindus once, but are they maleccha or not?



Now someone here gave examples of some people who were born into certain varna but fell short of that. So? It happens everyday, all the time. What's new there? Varna by birth doesn't guarantee that the person 'will' perform the perscribed duties. This is why hindusim is not fatalism i.e. our destiny is not pre-written. So yeah, go ahead and don't perform your perscribed duties, no problem. Law of karma will take care of you in future and based on what you did you will be in an approrpriate womb.
Brahmin Parshuram become immortal, he surrounded to Kshatriya Ram. Who was wrong and who was right when Parshuram and Ram both are form’s of ViShNu.
In India birth in low caste means birth based reservations, and so called higher caste have no proper right. You don’t know that 70% of total sweepers in India are born in Brahmin clans, they are doing this to earn their living not pride. But what will you call them who are born into these families , what were they who get approrpriate womb?



Those outside of varnasram that are performing dharmic duties even with their current sudra or even worse Maleccha birth, will in future get the appropriate womb, again law of karma is in effect.
But perhaps God, law of karma, reincarnation all these things are nonsense in this hypothetical scenario?


Change of Varna happened in our itihasa when law of Vedas was legal law. Vishwamitra, Takshal, Dhrist, Ailush, Jabal, Agniveshya, Rathotar, Harit, Matang etc none was a Brahmin born but they were clearly mentioned as Brahmins, even Bhagwan Ram and Krishna did not objected them, there is no question anyone will get punishment of lower varna in next birth.
I will like to know what is an approrpriate womb for Eastern Mind who is a White Hindu origin from a Kahatriya clan ,but his action is that of a Brahmin.





Pranam Param ji
Well thank you, it is not necessary we should agree on everything, that doesn't make anyone aDharmi either. My views on Varna has always been guna, karma birth based.
Why do you think anyone here is anti Hindu simply because he or she does not agree with your point of view?
perhaps if you can show that the way of ॐ has been transgressed we can discuss.
If you cared to understand what OP want to discuss you might appreciate the answer.
Not every tough passage in shastra is work of Islamic bigots.

This is not important what we accept but the importance is what adharmis are promoting behind the Hindu face. Historical evidence are more important then whatever somebody say.

If Varna is truly birth based on previous Karma, then how come Bharat's grandson Takshal become a Brahmin when he was born in Raghu dynasty?
Raghu was himself a descendant of Manuji Maharaj, and Manuji himself says -
BraHmin can become Shudra and Shudra can become Brahmin by their actions. Similarly kShaTriYas and VaiShYa s can also change their Varnas. (MS 10.65)


here is what Mahabharat says;
"Suteji said, 'Listen, O ye Brahmanas, to the sacred descriptions I utter O ye best of men, ye deserve to hear of the place known as Samanta-panchaka. In the interval between the Treta and Dwapara Yugas, Rama (the son of Jamadagni) great among all who have borne arms, urged by impatience of wrongs, repeatedly smote the noble race of Kshatriyas. And when that fiery meteor, by his own valour, annihilated the entire tribe of the Kshatriyas, he formed at Samanta-panchaka five lakes of blood.

Just in case the translation is not true see the Sanskrit yourself.
Book 1
Chapter 2
1 [रसयग]
समन्तपञ्चकम इति यद उक्तं सूतनन्दन
एतत सर्वं यथान्यायं शरॊतुम इच्छामहे वयम
2 [स]
शुश्रूषा यदि वॊ विप्रा बरुवतश च कथाः शुभाः
समन्तपञ्चकाख्यं च शरॊतुम अर्हथ सत्तमाः
3 तरेता दवापरयॊः संधौ रामः शस्त्रभृतां वरः
असकृत पार्थिवं कषत्रं जघानामर्ष चॊदितः
4 स सर्वं कषत्रम उत्साद्य सववीर्येणानल दयुतिः
समन्तपञ्चके पञ्च चकार रुधिरह्रदान

I am sure you know why he did what he did.

Jai Shree Krishna

Comment on Sutji is much more different. Suteji described this to Shaunak Rishi who was born as kShaTriYa. Vayu Puran, ViShNu Puran and Harivansh Puran, mention that sons of Shaunak Rishi belonged to all four Varnas- Brahmin, kShaTriYa, VaiShYa, and ShUdRa.

Birth of Parshuram was not to annihilate any "Noble Race", he killed only terrorists who take birth as kShaTriYa but but destroyed Khatriyahood.

Translation is not worth -

यदा यदा हि धर्मस्य ग्लानिर्भवति भारत ।
अभ्युत्थानमधर्मस्य तदात्मानं सृजाम्यहम् ॥BG-4.7॥

परित्राणाय साधूनां विनाशाय च दुष्कृताम् ।
धर्मसंस्थापनार्थाय सम्भवामि युगे युगे ॥BG-4.8॥

I questioned Satay in previous comment but he avoided to answrer, but can you answer please?

[Ganeshprasad]

This is not important what we accept but the importance is what adharmis are promoting behind the Hindu face. Historical evidence are more important then whatever somebody say.

I don't understand, who are this aDharmis you keep refering too?
History tells us Varna has alway been based on birth, this is the only prerequisite creteria one can safely arrive at classification.



If Varna is truly birth based on previous Karma, then how come Bharat's grandson Takshal become a Brahmin when he was born in Raghu dynasty?

I can not comment on something I know absolutely nothing.


Raghu was himself a descendant of Manuji Maharaj, and Manuji himself says -
BraHmin can become Shudra and Shudra can become Brahmin by their actions. Similarly kShaTriYas and VaiShYa s can also change their Varnas. (MS 10.65)
It would be nice if had quoted the verse, in what context this is said, yes we all have potential to become question is at what point is appropriate?
I can quote you explicitly from Mahabharata when Bhishmapita says it otherwise




Comment on Sutji is much more different. Suteji described this to Shaunak Rishi who was born as kShaTriYa. Vayu Puran, ViShNu Puran and Harivansh Puran, mention that sons of Shaunak Rishi belonged to all four Varnas- Brahmin, kShaTriYa, VaiShYa, and ShUdRa.

Birth of Parshuram was not to annihilate any "Noble Race", he killed only terrorists who take birth as kShaTriYa but but destroyed Khatriyahood.

You are changing the context, let us stick to the point, it is explicitly said in shastra that Parshuram anhilated the Kshatriyas 21 times if you have a verse that says otherwise please quote, no point in giving opinions.



Translation is not worth -

यदा यदा हि धर्मस्य ग्लानिर्भवति भारत ।
अभ्युत्थानमधर्मस्य तदात्मानं सृजाम्यहम् ॥BG-4.7॥

परित्राणाय साधूनां विनाशाय च दुष्कृताम् ।
धर्मसंस्थापनार्थाय सम्भवामि युगे युगे ॥BG-4.8॥

I questioned Satay in previous comment but he avoided to answrer, but can you answer please?

I do not know what the question is

Jai Shree Krishna

[PARAM]

I don't understand, who are this aDharmis you keep refering too?
History tells us Varna has alway been based on birth, this is the only prerequisite creteria one can safely arrive at classification.

Which proof? iTiHaS tells us Varna was always chose as per the guna-karma-swabhava. Varna change proof are mentioned in different scriptures, you are not answering my question.



I can not comment on something I know absolutely nothing.

This is proof from History, but you don't want to understand?



It would be nice if had quoted the verse, in what context this is said, yes we all have potential to become question is at what point is appropriate?
I can quote you explicitly from Mahabharata when Bhishmapita says it otherwise


Are you sure you will not provide any misprinted quote? Sure there too all those quotes comes from somebody whose clan never changed Varna?



You are changing the context, let us stick to the point, it is explicitly said in shastra that Parshuram anhilated the Kshatriyas 21 times if you have a verse that says otherwise please quote, no point in giving opinions.

You are missing the proof about your own context, first you described Sutji but you missed the brahmin present with sutji was a kShatriYa by birth and his own biological sons were from all Varnas. This is proof from Itihasa, not from somebody's words, translated quotes are not always proper, but real action is the proof.



I do not know what the question is

How come Vishnu Avatara kill any innocent when he in Bhagvad Geeta himself says he take birth to protect nobles and wipe out evil? Krishna lied or he was true?


Parshuram gifted the Shiva Dhanush to kShatRiya king Janak, he was never an enemy of Nobles like Janak.

Parshuram trained and taught Bheesham the best of warfare, he never give up his duty to teach warfare to noble kShatRiya's son.

Parshuram fought against Bheesham for a kShatRiya girl Amba, he take care of kShatRiya woman's dignity.

When Parshuram come to know Karna was a kShatRiya's son, he cursed Karna only for cheating the Guru but did not killed him, he give Vijay Dhanush to Karna and never demanded any Guru Dakshina from him.

There are many more proofs available in itihaas, what proof anyone have by Parshuram's action and not by somebody's claim (most of the translations are already misprinted) It is more like Sutji is saying Parshuram annihilated evil people who were kShatRiyas (warriors).

[Ganeshprasad]

Pranam Param ji

I think we will have to agree to disagree on this one, I know there are very few exception to rule, that no one has denied. If you know of an authority that can decide gunas of a person let alone a child, do let me know, untill then only reliable method I know is birth, that again is based on karma unless you think it is just a chance.

Jai Shree Krishna

[MahaHrada]

Hypothetical scenario for those who believe Varna is by birth

I have a problem with the title of this thread it presumes "Varna" exists and that it must be caused, either by birth or by guna.

But Varna is only an idea it is neither caused by guna nor birth it simply does not exist except in the intellect.

What really exists are clans and families, and ethnic groups, and groups bound into an unit by profession, by sect, by common ancestors or common beliefs, all these compete for survival, because they share the same resources, sometimes they work together, and sometimes they fight wars.

It is a melting pot of different elements, for instance Aiyars and Iyengars are both brahmin clans but the orthodox dislike when their offspring marry, though intellectually one could say they belong to one varna but in reality they shun each other because of different sectarian bias and religious duties.

Kerala Brahmins, the Namboothiris again belive that all Tamil brahmins are unclean and must be shunned at least on certain occassions.

One could go on and an on just like that, there is no end to divisons based on birth in a certain community. Sometimes Varna is important sometimes proffession, sometimes sectarian affiliations, sometimes ethnic or regional profiles are dividing the groups.

Then we have to consider the history of India also, Brahmin or vedic community was very small in early times and slowly spread through india from about todays punjab region, and they introduced the concept of varna to other parts of India, before they arrived in a certain region nobody living there had any idea that he belonged to something called a "Varna", and only later slowly these clans and families found a place in the Varna order of society and it was decided to which Varna they belong, After Varna was determined, of course it was not easy to switch to another Varna by single individuals just by their deeds. Then we have certain religious beliefs that never accepted the idea that there is something like Varna, like in ancient tantric Kashmir where there are no differnt varnas everyone is a pandit.

Though Varna by birth certainly became the Rule after some time, there is convincing evidence that when the Vedic community still was very small, all members of the tiny community where called "noble ones" and could have different functions in one birth, but at that time no other ethnic group or clan could assimilate at all into that group and all other ethnics were considered to be existing outside the Varna based society.

In peasant and tribal regions all over India there are still today large groups of tribals that do not care that there is such a thing as Varna and that would not call themselves Hindu.

Also a lot of religious groups did not like the concept of birth based differences at all and like many sects today, maintained that if there is any discrimination or respect for individuals it should be based on deeds rather than birth and these communities lived according to this principle.
One of these groups was the shramanas that gathered around a famous teacher of shramana religion the buddha shakyamuni who said:

27. "Not by birth is one an outcast; not by birth is one a brahman. By deed one becomes an outcast, by deed one becomes an brahman."
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/kn/snp/snp.1.07.piya.html

So even at that early time, when Buddha lived, we find:

1. groups of people that belived Varna is only related to birth and acted accordingly
2. groups of People that belived Varna is only by deeds and acted accordingly
3. groups of People that rejected the concept of Varna altogether and acted accordingly.
4. groups of People that have never cared or never heard of the concept of Varna and acted accordingly.
6. All kinds of mixtures of the above.

These are almost all Variations of Varna/Jati that existed in real life in the History of India.

Varna itself does not exist it is only a concept of the mind so one can never decide if it is by birth or deeds, that one is a brahmin or outcaste, one can only say that collecting all evidence, most of the time all these things Varna or Jati, Profession or sect and other circumstances of life customs like marriage, childhood education, death, etc. was determined by birth in a clan or region and it was not easy to decide about one of these factors on ones own, as an individual choice.

That does not mean one way of looking at this subject is right or wrong or useful or hindering, or truth and untruth useful for, or degrading society. I only want to make clear that all of these diffferent ways of treating the subject exist now, have existed in the past and will exist in the future with all their different pros and cons.

So to say, everyone is wrong and everyone is right because all these varieties of Varna existed at some time and will exist in the future in India.

Just to be fair one must say that most of time the single individual could not easily escape his fate and that was strongly determined by birth, and that included more than just Varna but all kind of local customs that one could not just sweep away and ignore without risking to get hit with a stick on the head and dumped in a ditch.

Of course outside of India Varna is virtually non existing, since it is only an idea and an idea needs people that know that such a concept exists.

[philosoraptor]

Well, let it not be said that there isn't an opinion here to suit people of all dispositions....

:)

[wundermonk]

27. "Not by birth is one an outcast; not by birth is one a brahman. By deed one becomes an outcast, by deed one becomes an brahman."
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/kn/snp/snp.1.07.piya.html


Beautiful link!

The 9th Avatar of Vishnu has set the record straight!!!

This is well in line with the message of the 8th Avatar, Krishna, in his BG!

[MahaHrada]

Well, let it not be said that there isn't an opinion here to suit people of all dispositions....

:)

It is easy to become a brahmin by birth it hard to remain in that state.
Like the buddha said:

25..... There are brahmans born in the family of preceptors, kinsmen of (veda) hymns.

26. "They are often seen committing evil deeds. In this life itself they are despised, in the next they are born in an evil state of existence. High birth does not prevent them from falling into a woeful state, or from censure.

[philosoraptor]

It is easy to become a brahmin by birth it hard to remain in that state.
Like the buddha said:

25..... There are brahmans born in the family of preceptors, kinsmen of (veda) hymns.

26. "They are often seen committing evil deeds. In this life itself they are despised, in the next they are born in an evil state of existence. High birth does not prevent them from falling into a woeful state, or from censure.

I'm sorry, does this prove something? I never claimed that high birth kept one from falling down. Ashvatthama was born as a brahmin, and he did not wait until his next birth to become a murderer - he did it in that very life itself, and was still known as a brahmin, albeit a sinful one.

[Ganeshprasad]

Pranam


It is easy to become a brahmin by birth it hard to remain in that state.
Like the buddha said:

25..... There are brahmans born in the family of preceptors, kinsmen of (veda) hymns.

26. "They are often seen committing evil deeds. In this life itself they are despised, in the next they are born in an evil state of existence. High birth does not prevent them from falling into a woeful state, or from censure.

Take your pick Wundermonk, this birth is not going to go away, no one argues if we miss the opportunity we get what we deserve.

Jai Shree Krishna

[Omkara]

So people can fall down but not climb up?

[Omkara]

Beleiving in the laq of karma also means beleiving that one can change one's karma.It does not mean fatalism.Karma is dynamic.

[PARAM]

Pranam Param ji

I think we will have to agree to disagree on this one, I know there are very few exception to rule, that no one has denied. If you know of an authority that can decide gunas of a person let alone a child, do let me know, untill then only reliable method I know is birth, that again is based on karma unless you think it is just a chance.

Jai Shree Krishna

No, don't say "Jai Shree Krishna"
Action speaks louder then words. You believe in words of other then Krishna, but reject their action, further you are challenging what Krishna himself said and his action.

[Ganeshprasad]

Pranam


No, don't say "Jai Shree Krishna"
Action speaks louder then words. You believe in words of other then Krishna, but reject their action, further you are challenging what Krishna himself said and his action.

It seems anyone who disagrees with Param is a jihadi, far for me to challenge Krishna, I am scared of challenging Param, it seems that you have taken mantle of authority on all thing Hindu scripture. if it is not in Param's comprehension it must be Muslims aDharmi's work.

It would be only fair if you can point to me where I have challenged Lord Shree Krishna instead of of your ad hominen.

your mantra 'Muslim aDharmi' is not an answer to all difficult questions that come across, although I know your heart is in good place.



Jai Shree Krishna

[satay]

Admin Note

namaste,


No, don't say "Jai Shree Krishna"


So now you are tellilng other members what they should and should not say?

As an admin of this forum I will take all abuse from you but I will not allow you to abuse other members. So stop telling other members what to do or I will be forced to enforce the site rules on you.

You need to calm down and stop calling anyone who doesn't agree with your DIY hinduism nonsensem adharmi, musla etc. although I do know as Ganesh Ji that your heart is at the right place.

Try to learn the traditional view (of three acaryas) on Varna instead of your own DIY hinduism. Your are making a mockery of yourself.

[PARAM]

Pranam



It seems anyone who disagrees with Param is a jihadi, far for me to challenge Krishna, I am scared of challenging Param, it seems that you have taken mantle of authority on all thing Hindu scripture. if it is not in Param's comprehension it must be Muslims aDharmi's work.

It would be only fair if you can point to me where I have challenged Lord Shree Krishna instead of of your ad hominen.

your mantra 'Muslim aDharmi' is not an answer to all difficult questions that come across, although I know your heart is in good place.



Jai Shree Krishna

Where did I said you maleccha or 'Muslim aDharmi' ?
I put some questions to you but you put all of them unanswered by just ending with chant of Krishna's name.

Parshurama was aVaTARs of ViShNu, is that wrong?
Disrespecting him is disrespecting ViShNu, is that wrong?
Parshurama is associatied with Shiva, is that wrong?
Maa Parvati calls him as her son, is that wrong?
Disrespecting him is disrespecting Shiva's family, is that wrong?


Last time you challenged me to a debate on Ramayna, I accepted it and lost it, then you welcome me. But now when I am asking you, why you do not want to answer my question? You know Ramayana, then you must know how many of Ram's forefathers were annihilated by Parshurama? Just name some, or even one.

What is said in quote about anyone, this can be misquoted, but action speaks louder then words.



Admin Note

namaste,



So now you are tellilng other members what they should and should not say?

As an admin of this forum I will take all abuse from you but I will not allow you to abuse other members. So stop telling other members what to do or I will be forced to enforce the site rules on you.

You need to calm down and stop calling anyone who doesn't agree with your DIY hinduism nonsensem adharmi, musla etc. although I do know as Ganesh Ji that your heart is at the right place.

Try to learn the traditional view (of three acaryas) on Varna instead of your own DIY hinduism. Your are making a mockery of yourself.


I understand only original

As an admin, take action if you want. I am always calm, don't worry.
जो प्रश्न मैंने पूछे उनका उत्तर तो दे नहीं सके फिर क्या समझने की बात है? मैंने यहाँ Yajvan से भी पूछ लिया है, वे भी यही कहते है अब क्या यह मान ले वे भी गलत हैं? मैं तो वही मानता हूँ जो ईश्वर कहते हैं और उनके अवतारों के कर्म हमें सिखाते हैं, मैं तो उनके जीवन से ही शिक्षा लूँगा| परन्तु जो उन्ही पर निर्दोषों कि हत्या, मांसखोरी, स्त्रियों पर अत्याचार आदि का आरोप लगाएगा, मैं अंत तक उससे लडूंगा चाहे कोई मुझ पर हँसे या रोए

[satay]

Admin Note

namaste Param,

Please follow the forum rules. Do not personally attack other members when they do not agree with your personal views. If you have a problem with a post, please report it to me so that I can take appropriate action.



Where did I said you maleccha or 'Muslim aDharmi' ?

[Ganeshprasad]

Pranam


Where did I said you maleccha or 'Muslim aDharmi' ?

You did not in so many words but you implied, not just me but everyone who happen to disagree with you on varna or shastra validity.



I put some questions to you but you put all of them unanswered by just ending with chant of Krishna's name.

I have answered all your query except the one where I said I can't comment as I do not know the event, it is up to you to provide evidence if You want an answer, beside one or two exception does not make a rule.




Parshurama was aVaTARs of ViShNu, is that wrong?
Disrespecting him is disrespecting ViShNu, is that wrong?
Parshurama is associatied with Shiva, is that wrong?
Maa Parvati calls him as her son, is that wrong?
Disrespecting him is disrespecting Shiva's family, is that wrong?

Give me one example where anyone said to the contrary.



Last time you challenged me to a debate on Ramayna, I accepted it and lost it, then you welcome me. But now when I am asking you, why you do not want to answer my question? You know Ramayana, then you must know how many of Ram's forefathers were annihilated by Parshurama? Just name some, or even one.

I will concede this to you, when the shastra says he ahnilated kshtriyas 21 times it is possible he only killed the evil ones but the verse is very explicit.
Unfortunately you have not understood the OP, if you had, you could have saved you and everyone else a lot heartache. Satay offered this in response to OP, this has nothing to do with character of Parshuram.

Jai Shree Krishna

[Ekoham]

Hypothetical scenario for those who believe Varna is by birth

I have a problem with the title of this thread it presumes "Varna" exists and that it must be caused, either by birth or by guna.

But Varna is only an idea it is neither caused by guna nor birth it simply does not exist except in the intellect.

What really exists are clans and families, and ethnic groups, and groups bound into an unit by profession, by sect, by common ancestors or common beliefs, all these compete for survival, because they share the same resources, sometimes they work together, and sometimes they fight wars.

It is a melting pot of different elements, for instance Aiyars and Iyengars are both brahmin clans but the orthodox dislike when their offspring marry, though intellectually one could say they belong to one varna but in reality they shun each other because of different sectarian bias and religious duties.

Kerala Brahmins, the Namboothiris again belive that all Tamil brahmins are unclean and must be shunned at least on certain occassions.

One could go on and an on just like that, there is no end to divisons based on birth in a certain community. Sometimes Varna is important sometimes proffession, sometimes sectarian affiliations, sometimes ethnic or regional profiles are dividing the groups.

Then we have to consider the history of India also, Brahmin or vedic community was very small in early times and slowly spread through india from about todays punjab region, and they introduced the concept of varna to other parts of India, before they arrived in a certain region nobody living there had any idea that he belonged to something called a "Varna", and only later slowly these clans and families found a place in the Varna order of society and it was decided to which Varna they belong, After Varna was determined, of course it was not easy to switch to another Varna by single individuals just by their deeds. Then we have certain religious beliefs that never accepted the idea that there is something like Varna, like in ancient tantric Kashmir where there are no differnt varnas everyone is a pandit.

Though Varna by birth certainly became the Rule after some time, there is convincing evidence that when the Vedic community still was very small, all members of the tiny community where called "noble ones" and could have different functions in one birth, but at that time no other ethnic group or clan could assimilate at all into that group and all other ethnics were considered to be existing outside the Varna based society.

In peasant and tribal regions all over India there are still today large groups of tribals that do not care that there is such a thing as Varna and that would not call themselves Hindu.

Also a lot of religious groups did not like the concept of birth based differences at all and like many sects today, maintained that if there is any discrimination or respect for individuals it should be based on deeds rather than birth and these communities lived according to this principle.
One of these groups was the shramanas that gathered around a famous teacher of shramana religion the buddha shakyamuni who said:

27. "Not by birth is one an outcast; not by birth is one a brahman. By deed one becomes an outcast, by deed one becomes an brahman."
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/kn/snp/snp.1.07.piya.html

So even at that early time, when Buddha lived, we find:

1. groups of people that belived Varna is only related to birth and acted accordingly
2. groups of People that belived Varna is only by deeds and acted accordingly
3. groups of People that rejected the concept of Varna altogether and acted accordingly.
4. groups of People that have never cared or never heard of the concept of Varna and acted accordingly.
6. All kinds of mixtures of the above.

These are almost all Variations of Varna/Jati that existed in real life in the History of India.

Varna itself does not exist it is only a concept of the mind so one can never decide if it is by birth or deeds, that one is a brahmin or outcaste, one can only say that collecting all evidence, most of the time all these things Varna or Jati, Profession or sect and other circumstances of life customs like marriage, childhood education, death, etc. was determined by birth in a clan or region and it was not easy to decide about one of these factors on ones own, as an individual choice.

That does not mean one way of looking at this subject is right or wrong or useful or hindering, or truth and untruth useful for, or degrading society. I only want to make clear that all of these diffferent ways of treating the subject exist now, have existed in the past and will exist in the future with all their different pros and cons.

So to say, everyone is wrong and everyone is right because all these varieties of Varna existed at some time and will exist in the future in India.

Just to be fair one must say that most of time the single individual could not easily escape his fate and that was strongly determined by birth, and that included more than just Varna but all kind of local customs that one could not just sweep away and ignore without risking to get hit with a stick on the head and dumped in a ditch.

Of course outside of India Varna is virtually non existing, since it is only an idea and an idea needs people that know that such a concept exists.

Namaste MahaHradaji,

You offer very interesting view and I respect it.
In any case what difference does it make if a person is born in a particular family or some other, these are the results of ones past karma's and may offer help in someway but can never be the guarantee of a particular future (owing to varna by birth).

A person has been/ is and will always be known by his karma's alone.

The supreme knowledge of spirituality tells us "sarvam khalvidam brahma", All of this is brahman, then how can there be anyone who is lower or superior to someone else.

Those are ignorant who claim superiority on the basis of birth.
Many great saints of India were no born in Brahmin families, yet they reached the epitome of Dharma (Saint Tukaram, Saint Kabir..) and till today they are respected, worshiped by one and all.

The purpose of Sanatan Dharma should be love for all and can never be the hatred.

I have a humble request to all the members of this forum, please do not insult my loving god "Allah" who is none other than Krishna himself.
I have had the opportunity to speak to many of the muslim scholars of Egypt and other Arab countries and what they said exactly matched with what my Guruji told me... Allah is nothing but all pervasive Brahman.
The glory of sanatan dharma can never be drawn by belittling other paths/dharmas.
In any case sanatan dharma is the dharma of all Jivas, how then can anyone claim right on Sanatan Dharma.

It is important that one understands how unknowingly our ego sometimes hurts others and that other is none other than the expansion of our very own "Self".

My intention, in any case was not to hurt anybody, yet in anyways if I have caused any pain to the respected members of this forum, I tender my humble apology.

OM
Ekoham Dwitiyo Nasti (Where there is dvait/ dualism, there is confusion, doubt.....)

[Ekoham]

Hypothetical scenario for those who believe Varna is by birth

I have a problem with the title of this thread it presumes "Varna" exists and that it must be caused, either by birth or by guna.

But Varna is only an idea it is neither caused by guna nor birth it simply does not exist except in the intellect.

What really exists are clans and families, and ethnic groups, and groups bound into an unit by profession, by sect, by common ancestors or common beliefs, all these compete for survival, because they share the same resources, sometimes they work together, and sometimes they fight wars.

It is a melting pot of different elements, for instance Aiyars and Iyengars are both brahmin clans but the orthodox dislike when their offspring marry, though intellectually one could say they belong to one varna but in reality they shun each other because of different sectarian bias and religious duties.

Kerala Brahmins, the Namboothiris again belive that all Tamil brahmins are unclean and must be shunned at least on certain occassions.

One could go on and an on just like that, there is no end to divisons based on birth in a certain community. Sometimes Varna is important sometimes proffession, sometimes sectarian affiliations, sometimes ethnic or regional profiles are dividing the groups.

Then we have to consider the history of India also, Brahmin or vedic community was very small in early times and slowly spread through india from about todays punjab region, and they introduced the concept of varna to other parts of India, before they arrived in a certain region nobody living there had any idea that he belonged to something called a "Varna", and only later slowly these clans and families found a place in the Varna order of society and it was decided to which Varna they belong, After Varna was determined, of course it was not easy to switch to another Varna by single individuals just by their deeds. Then we have certain religious beliefs that never accepted the idea that there is something like Varna, like in ancient tantric Kashmir where there are no differnt varnas everyone is a pandit.

Though Varna by birth certainly became the Rule after some time, there is convincing evidence that when the Vedic community still was very small, all members of the tiny community where called "noble ones" and could have different functions in one birth, but at that time no other ethnic group or clan could assimilate at all into that group and all other ethnics were considered to be existing outside the Varna based society.

In peasant and tribal regions all over India there are still today large groups of tribals that do not care that there is such a thing as Varna and that would not call themselves Hindu.

Also a lot of religious groups did not like the concept of birth based differences at all and like many sects today, maintained that if there is any discrimination or respect for individuals it should be based on deeds rather than birth and these communities lived according to this principle.
One of these groups was the shramanas that gathered around a famous teacher of shramana religion the buddha shakyamuni who said:

27. "Not by birth is one an outcast; not by birth is one a brahman. By deed one becomes an outcast, by deed one becomes an brahman."
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/kn/snp/snp.1.07.piya.html

So even at that early time, when Buddha lived, we find:

1. groups of people that belived Varna is only related to birth and acted accordingly
2. groups of People that belived Varna is only by deeds and acted accordingly
3. groups of People that rejected the concept of Varna altogether and acted accordingly.
4. groups of People that have never cared or never heard of the concept of Varna and acted accordingly.
6. All kinds of mixtures of the above.

These are almost all Variations of Varna/Jati that existed in real life in the History of India.

Varna itself does not exist it is only a concept of the mind so one can never decide if it is by birth or deeds, that one is a brahmin or outcaste, one can only say that collecting all evidence, most of the time all these things Varna or Jati, Profession or sect and other circumstances of life customs like marriage, childhood education, death, etc. was determined by birth in a clan or region and it was not easy to decide about one of these factors on ones own, as an individual choice.

That does not mean one way of looking at this subject is right or wrong or useful or hindering, or truth and untruth useful for, or degrading society. I only want to make clear that all of these diffferent ways of treating the subject exist now, have existed in the past and will exist in the future with all their different pros and cons.

So to say, everyone is wrong and everyone is right because all these varieties of Varna existed at some time and will exist in the future in India.

Just to be fair one must say that most of time the single individual could not easily escape his fate and that was strongly determined by birth, and that included more than just Varna but all kind of local customs that one could not just sweep away and ignore without risking to get hit with a stick on the head and dumped in a ditch.

Of course outside of India Varna is virtually non existing, since it is only an idea and an idea needs people that know that such a concept exists.

Namaste MahaHradaji,

You offer very interesting view and I respect it.
In any case what difference does it make if a person is born in a particular family or some other, these are the results of ones past karma's and may offer help in someway but can never be the guarantee of a particular future (owing to varna by birth).

A person has been/ is and will always be known by his karma's alone.

The supreme knowledge of spirituality tells us "sarvam khalvidam brahma", All of this is brahman, then how can there be anyone who is lower or superior to someone else.

Those are ignorant who claim superiority on the basis of birth.
Many great saints of India were no born in Brahmin families, yet they reached the epitome of Dharma (Saint Tukaram, Saint Kabir..) and till today they are respected, worshiped by one and all.

The purpose of Sanatan Dharma should be love for all and can never be the hatred.

I have a humble request to all the members of this forum, please do not insult my loving god "Allah" who is none other than "Krishna" himself.
I have had the opportunity to speak to many of the muslim scholars of Egypt and other Arab countries and what they said exactly matched with what my Guruji told me... Allah is nothing but all pervasive Brahman.
The glory of sanatan dharma can never be drawn by belittling other paths/dharmas.
In any case sanatan dharma is the dharma of all Jivas, how then can anyone claim right on Sanatan Dharma.

It is important that one understands how unknowingly our ego sometimes hurts others and that other is none other than the expansion of our very own "Self".

My intention, in any case was not to hurt anybody, yet in anyways if I have caused any pain to the respected members of this forum, I tender my humble apology.

OM
Ekoham Dwitiyo Nasti (Where there is dvait/ dualism, there is confusion, doubt.....)

[Omkara]

Allah is NOT Brahman.Why am I having to say this again and again.Do you beleive the Koran is a revealed text? Do you beleive that God has a 'Chosen Race' abd condones genocide?