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Hari Om!
How does one discriminate between what is real and what is not as a stepping stone to vairagya? I don't believe that we are speaking simply of maya here but learned members may correct me if this is wrong.
Further, what exactly is "Nityanitya-vastu-Viveka" and how is it cultivated?
Jai Jai Hanuman!
Namaste Smith,
Shankara says that one should keep contemplating on the VedAnta teachings to develop VairAgya and to attain Self-realisation. However, I have found that you can be well versed in ShastrAs and yet attached to sensual objects like any animal. There are many examples and I am sure you must be aware of quite a few examples.Quote:
Originally Posted by c.smith
I would speak my mind :
a) MAyA is difficult to overcome. Lord Krishna says in BG : "Mam MAyA duratyayA" (My MAyA is difficult to overcome).
b) To JnAna yogis, VairAgya comes with understanding the work of MAyA which gives sharpness to one's intellect to differentiate between what is "Eternal and unchanging" (NityA)and what is "ephemeral and prone to changes" (Anitya). This is called " Nitya-Anitya-Vastu-viveka" (the intellect capable of differentiating between nitya and anitya among the things (vastu)).
JnAna Yogis contemplate on the words of their Gurus and the teachings of VedAnta to develop VairAgya.
c) VairAgya also comes with intense love of God in Bhakti Yoga when one Ishta-deva is so lovable that any other worldly thing becomes of no value to the bhakta.
d) VairAgya also comes with the grace of Guru.
OM
namaste Smith.
My two cents:
• In the vedAnta philosophy, the term viveka means:
the power of separating the invisible Spirit from the visible world (or spirit from matter, truth from untruth, reality from mere semblance or illusion)
• To arrive at this power of wisdom, one needs to cultivate the spirit of vairAgya--freedom from all worldly desires, indifference to worldly objects and to life, asceticism.
• The term vai means
to dry, be dried; to be languid or weary, be exhausted.;
and rAga
means colour, hue, dye; love, passion, affection, amorous or sexual feeling; feeling, emotion, sympathy, interest; joy, pleasure, anger, wrath.
Thus, vairAgya signifies the drying up of the 'colour' of the above feelings which in turn arise out of desires, so vairAgya means freedom from all worldly desires and indifference to worldly objects and to life, and this arises from the knowledge that these are all illusions--mAyA when compared to the Self, which is the only absolute reality.
• How does one discriminate between what is real and what is not?
'Probably with reference to what is conducive to Atma-sAdhana--efforts of realizing the Self, and what is not?'
• This triggers another, more important question: "Can I realize the Self in this birth? (in other words, how far am I a mumukShu--desirous of mokSha in this birth and can I attain it with proper sAdhana?)" The answer for most of us is probably No.
• Therefore, as the next best thing, IMHO, we should develop the specific vairAgyam known as ihAmutrArtha-phala-bhogavirAgaH-- Disinterestedness in enjoying the fruit of one's actions and sense objects here and here after. This is best attained in this Kali Yuga by bhakti sAdhana as Devotee has pointed out above.
In addition, we must take efforts to attain other qualities detailed for example, in these links:
http://www.hinduwebsite.com/hinduism...itaconcept.asp
http://www.wiki.khyf.net/Sadhana-catustaya.ashx
हरिः ओम्
Namaste c.smith,
A few thoughts on the subject for you kind consideration.
Can viveka be pure?
I would say that one must know ones self; fully, and be at peace in this knowledge. One must then strive to be be totally independent;
especially in the resourcing of ones energetic need, in ojas or vital energy.
If our internal balance does not require the influence of external stimulation, to be rectified; Our discrimination then remains non
biased, you could also say that it is centred.
pranāma
mana
ॐ नमः शिवाय
Aum Namaḥ Śivāya
Pranam
According to Tulsidas Goswami, in his Ramcharitra manas, he write;
Binu Satsanga Bibeka Na Hoi,
Rama Kripaa Binu Sulabha Na soi
there is no other means either in the world or in the Vedas. Wisdom dawns not without association with saints and such association cannot be easily had without the grace of Sri Rama (the Lord).
Whoever, whenever and by whatever means has ever attained wisdom, glory, salvation, material prosperity and welfare anywhere and by any means whatsoever know it to be the result of association with holy men;
Contact with noble souls is the root of joy and blessings. It constitutes the very fruit and fulfillment of all endeavours, whereas all other practices are blossoms as it were. Through contact with the virtuous even the wicked get reformed, just as a base metal is transmuted by the touch of the philosophers stone.
I bow to the saints, who are even minded towards all and have no friend or foe, just as a flower of good quality placed in the palm of ones hands communicates its fragrance alike to both the hands (the one which plucked it and that which held and preserved it). Realising thus the noble disposition and loving nature of saints, who are innocent at heart and catholic in spirit I make this humble submission to them. O noble souls, bless me with devotion to the feet of Sri Rama."
It has been laid down here, categorically and firmly, that Satsang or the company of holy people is the only way to achieve anything good and great.
This has been repeated many a times not only in the Ramayana but also in other holy books. In Bhakti-Sutra, Narada says: Mukhyatastu Matkripaiva - Mainly through the grace of the great ones.
The primary means of attaining divine love is the grace of the saints. Such contact, it is further said, is rare, difficult to attain, yet uplifting in its effect. It is possible only through Gods grace.
Tadeva Saadhyataam, Tadeva Saadhyataam Therefore cultivate this contact with the lover of God.
That is why the importance of Satsang cannot be emphasized enough times.
Jai Shree Krishna
Namaste
Some great comments and a very important part of the process to gain right understanding.
Obviously my sanskrit is not good but recently with the aid of some reflections and studies in abhidhamma the prefix vi is quite directive or it points to something inward. vijnana, vipassana, vihara, vitarka, vichara and so on. I did some research found tarka is in the Upanishads, tarka precedes samadhi, its a contemplation, reflection, vi I have come to translate and understand after some thought as a state where grosser forms of awareness are not present, mind has turned inwardly, there is then an inwardly awareness.
In some places that translates vitarka via Ptanjali sutras as discernment, reasoning and logic, this translation can be misleading and is slightly wrong, as mostly in todays language logic and reasoning has something to do with the normal intellect the level of comprehension, some have also translated it as comparing the different teachings using logic and debate. Somethings that may sound logically accurate may not be so, so this is not a very advanced form or right translation of vitarka which Patanjali muni is indicating. Patanjali the same as with the abhidamma is meaning vitarka as insightful reflection.
viveka if its weak, needs strengthening by sadhana, that which knows the difference between the real and unreal, dharma and adharma in its organic cognitive function needs some silence to reflect and build up that ability. If suffcient strength is built up then one enters sotapanna, stream enterer equanimity and the arupa absorbtions, sushupti?
veka is translated as knowledge or wisdom, real knowledge and wisdom is to know things as they really, no interpretations or modifications of conditioned mind. So viveka for this entry is insight knowledge and wisdom, which in modern terms would be a intuitive cognitive function.
Sadhana has also been highlighted, as its useless to imitate and as said above its the process for most of us. vi comes again with sadhana and I found this recently which helps to know more what sadhana and practice or cultivation of higher states or more natural states really is and how its applied to rediscover true identity and enlightenment.
Vācaspati Miśra~ considers the first state on Patañjali's list, vitarka-samādhi, to be contemplation on a gross physical object, that is to say, meditating on an object that one experiences as a manifestation or construct of the gross physical or material elements. It is thus the first level of experiencing an object in samādhi.
Keeping the metaphysics of Sāṅkhya in mind, we know that the five gross elements that constitute gross physical objects evolve from elements that are more subtle, that is, they are actually evolutes from the tanmātras, the five subtle elements.
Vācaspati Miśra states that vicāra samādhi the second level of samādhi concentration mentioned by Patañjali in the sūtra, involves absorption on this more subtle aspect of the object of meditation, perceiving the object as actually consisting of these more subtle ingredients. In fact, I.44 informs us that the subtle substructure of external reality can refer to any of the evolutes from prakṛti, as even the tanmātras evolve from ahaṅkāra which, in turn, evolves from buddhi. Thus, the latter can also be considered sūkṣma, subtle. As a new archer first aims at large objects, Vācaspati Miśra says, and then progressively smaller ones, so the neophyte yogī first experiences the gross nature of the object in meditation and then its progressively more subtle nature. Instead of experiencing the object as composed of compact quantum masses, the bhūtādi gross elements, as in the first state of vitarka, in vicāra, the yogī experiences the object as composed of vibratory, radiant potential, subtle energy (a sublevel of reality normally imperceptible to the senses).
There is a whole lot more to add, others can do it better than me, how real shraddha is developed via experience and so on. I just feel the importance of knowing these fundamental steps, which can sometimes be overlooked.