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Originally Posted by Arjuna
Well, i never said that "sex leads to eternal bliss", these are Ur words. I said it is a means to realise Divine Bliss, which is different.
"Of course it is not only bodily pleasure, but it is a sparkle of the Bliss of Brahman." Whose words are this?
2. Sex is a natural way to manifest Ananda, bliss of Brahman as it is present in the world and body. Thus it is a part of Kaulika brahmacharya. Your statement in Vamachara thread page 3
1. Maithuna is a direct means of realising blissful pulsation of Consciousness Your statement in Vamachara page 6 where in you say maithuna realises pulsation of consciousness and not eternal bliss - Pulsations of consciousness is a result of self inquiry and eternal bliss is a result of inquiry on God(Brahmajinjaasa, as put in by Maharishi Ved Vyasa)
Thus the very enjoyment is upasana — when the attitude is such. For this reason Yoni-tantra says: “Happiness is achieved through enjoyment and Liberation is achieved through enjoyment Your statement in What is tantrik monism referring to sexual rituals page 7
Vijnana-bhairava Agama says: "Wherever one's mind has enjoyment, there one should hold it. In that very place he experinces the bliss of Brahman". is again your statement referring to sex as suggested by Vijnana Bhairava
It will be better if you are consistent with your statements in this forum
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Of course, i am aware of given meaning of "samyoga", but in this case it refers primarily to sexual union. You may compare this with Shrividya's Jnanarnava-tantra, it is available online in sanskrit.
That is your assumption. If you want to mean Samyoga for Sexual union you are free to do it. As it is not so in general practise (non kaula sects) it will be better if you abstain from making such statements in general threads like this
Furthermore, there must be a reason if samyoga means sexual rituals here. Request you to provide us that reason
(A sample of such reason I had given while discussing the nature of the word narayana being proper noun and interpretation for the elephant word meaning ordinary elephant and lord - there are similar other examples also which I can provide with)
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I can provide sanskrit text if U'd like. But i cannot go on translating each and every passage here, sorry.
I welcome any original quote
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BTW 29th Ahnika of Tantraloka is published in english by J. Dupuche as "Abhinavagupta. The Kula Ritual" or something like that - check with google.com if interested.
I am not interested in part translations. if the text is available in full, let me know it. If the need arises, I have good access to religious texts, I know how to take it, thanks for your suggestion, Do inform me incase the entire translations are available online
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Since sex in love and inside marriage is in total accordance with all Hindu scriptures, there is no reason not to apply given method of VBh. Do not confuse the issue with acts of violence or ignorance, please, which clearly go against Dharma. Then, there is another passage in VBh which speaks specifically about sexual act. I can find it if i dig the book out, i have it in photocopy somewhere.
It is not me who is confusing indeed it is you. You perpetually shift you base from normal Grihasti to Mumukshu. My quotations was indeed talks about mumukshu. Again you are missing a query posted - How does Sex leads to tranquility of mind?
My comparisons was specific. I am talking about enjoyment concept as you suggested, suddenly you bring in adharma ignoring the very word you had used to refer sex - "Enjoyment".
You can dig out a copy, I had given you verse numbers where all sex is dealt in Vijnana Bhairava, from verse no 69 to 72, but it has only referece to sexual ritual and no where it says you can feel or realise supreme bliss. Check and get back to me on this
On the contrary, the very Vijnana Bhairava talks about
49. O beauty! Senses disseminated in your heart space, perceive the essence of the Shakti as indescribably fine gold powder which glitters in your heart and from there pours into space. Then you will know supreme bliss. (meditation)
53. See the entire world as a blazing inferno. Then, when all has turned into ashes, enter bliss.
64. In any activity, concentrate on the gap between inbreath and outbreath. Thus attain bliss
This is the what Vijnana Bhairava suggest about how to know supreme bliss
Whereas it is not clear about how bliss will come in while referring in other places, but just suggests reader to taste bliss by tasting food and drink (I should check my current translations with some two or three other translations, my present translations sounds as if bliss of intoxication, which I doubt 72. At the time of euphoria and expansion caused by delicate foods and drinks, be total in this delight and, through it, taste supreme bliss.)
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I doubt that VBh uses expression "bliss of love". This is needed to be checked.
You can check again.
My version says this 68. When you practice a sex ritual, let thought reside in the quivering of your senses like wind in the leaves, and reach the celestial bliss of ecstatic love
It further till 71 quotes about bliss of love and not about eternal bliss.
Correct me if I am wrong for this shows verily I should buy another book on Vijnana Bhairava, if your version is true and my version is wrong
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Brahmananda is not eternal in a conventional sense, since it is out of time. One moment of direct anubhava of That is an experince of Eternity, it is not placed in time.
You should describe your second statement well. First you say it is not eternal and in the very next you say it is eternal. May I understand Brahmanada is not eternal conventionally but eternal in modern sense? I am unable to make this up
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Scriptures say Shiva is Love. Thus, bliss of love verily is Eternal Bliss, Brahmananda.
Shiva is love - correct; but this love is not sex. it is verily Samanya prema Bhava like love for cow, birds and other living organism - Sneha should be the right word considering the phrase as rendered in Dravidian Languages. English vocabulary is not strong for expressing "Love", like Sanskrit, Telugu, Tamil, Kanada and Malaylam (I stop here for this is what I know, I can also generalise all Indian Languages, but I wont be able to corroborate)- Prema, abhilasha, Sneha, Raaga:, Vaatsalya, Anuraaga:, pranaya:, shrungara, kaama, anangaraaga, daya, krupa, abhinivesha, madanavashya, - trust you and sarabhangaji can list more
How this love corroborates your view is unknown still, where as snehabhaava to other living creatures with the view that god lives in all and all living creatures are viewed as god, can lead to eternal bliss - falling into bhakthiyoga
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I have clearly written that Kaula-naya is to be followed by Kaulas only. And each one has to follow his sampradaya.
I doubt as this is verily mere words of yours. You say sankara is really Kaula, Ramanuja has hidden Kuala tattvas from Vaishnav sects, trust both of us are new to this forum less than a year, (this forum is also very young, I trust), lest I will able to give more such instances.
You indeed want to say, Kaula is original Hindu sect and all sects support Kaula view inspite of the fact you verily acknowledge Kaula is non vedic religion whereas all other sects are vedic
[quoteBut, some points U say are againts general Vedic or Hindu view - these only i argue with. [/quote]
This corroborates my earlier statement. You indeed want to say Kaula philosophy is indeed only Hindu/Vedic sect. Let me not take reference of all - Sankara Bhavathpada did advice mumukshu to abstain from sex, indeed he adviced to abstain from women in toto. Is this not a part of general vedic / hindu view?
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Like that, grihasthi intending for Moksha do not have to abstain from sex for two reasons: it is simply not required by Shastras and moreover goes against his ashrama-dharma.
Not required only for Kaula Shastras (You forget to add), and in fact your ideas goes against Ashrama Dharma. As I had submitted, only Kama is not Grihasta dharma, even Artha is. As long as he upholds this purusharatha he remains as Grihasta. Kama as a purusharaatha is given permission to be practised by Grihasta but Grihasta is not defined on this enjoyment. As I had pointed out earlier, people of higher gnana in mythology entirely had very less children. For that fact, stories pertaining to Narada maharishi being trilokasanchaari will verify to my opinions.
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If some gurus taught this view (i haven't seen till now ANY proof of this from Ur side or from Kannan), it is mere personal opinion which in fact contradicts Vedic teaching.
Point is your carefully and purposefully miss those texts, there was a similar text submitted to you for which you had replied that the submitted text belongs to Harsha. Your dismissed it saying it is independant view of Harsha. In the same way, if I reject your Kaula view that it is independant view Shri Abhinavaguptaji, I think you will be sorry for me for holding such view, in the same way I feel sorry for you for holding such views with submitted texts which you rejected as personal opinions of Shri Harsha
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Yes, i know it is Ur view.
But verily this is not Hindu Dharma or Vedic teaching.
Indeed, it is your view that Kaula is only Hindu sect and all sects corroborate only Kaula