Ask An Udgātr: Questions About The Most Noble Shrī Sāmaveda

Namaskār Sarva[forum]jana :),

So I recently did a keyword search on sāmaveda and it only turned up with 26 results, none of which go into detail in regard to sāmaved-ic practices and since I'm a udgātā/chandogaḥ (i.e. sāmasaṅgāyakaḥ, or singer of the sāmagānam-s), I thought I would make a thread on it. At the same time, I don't want to confuse you or bore you (or both, :p) with technicalities (like what the significance of verse 54 of the vādhūlaśrautasūtram in regards to kāthaka ritual; the relationship between iḍā and cattle; the relationhip between the Kāleyasāman [referring to vitadanya-s son, not the demon of the kaliyuga], the gandharva-s, and soma; or the classifications of the songs [like why the udgī[t/th]a "ā ratnadhā yonim ṛta[sya]," chanted at the beginning of the jyotiṣṭoma yajña, classifies as a uhyagānam rather than an āraṇyagānam]). Hence, I would rather have y'all ask questions if you have any so I can get an idea of what you actually want to know. However, please limit your questions to sāmaveda, not the ṛgveda, yajurveda, or atharvaveda as more than likely, I probably don't know the answer to those (although sudās or kālicaraṇ most likely will).

Since a good portion of the sāma ṛchīs are derivatives of or some even just musical versions of ṛg ṛchīs, perhaps you can show us a map of the ṛg ṛchīs and how they got into sāma in song/music form .

Also, sāma vedists claim that many of the sāma ṛchīs are independant of ṛg . Perhaps you can give us a glimpse of these and show a pattern as to their candidacy for sāma i.e what made these ṛchīs a part of sāma veda .

Nice thread . "Of vedas, I am sāma " -- Shri Kṛṣṇa in Vibhūtī Yog , Bhagvad Gītā chapter 10 . Surely there must be big reasons for Him to say that . Our shāstrīya sangeet (Hindustānī classical music) came from this very piece of shāstra -- sāma veda .

Thanks .

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Originally Posted by Jaskaran Singh

Namaskār Sarva[forum]jana :),

So I recently did a keyword search on sāmaveda and it only turned up with 26 results, none of which go into detail in regard to sāmaved-ic practices and since I'm a udgātā/chandogaḥ (i.e. sāmasaṅgāyakaḥ, or singer of the sāmagānam-s), I thought I would make a thread on it. At the same time, I don't want to confuse you or bore you (or both, :p) with technicalities (like what the significance of verse 54 of the vādhūlaśrautasūtram in regards to kāthaka ritual; the relationship between iḍā and cattle; the relationhip between the Kāleyasāman [referring to vitadanya-s son, not the demon of the kaliyuga], the gandharva-s, and soma; or the classifications of the songs [like why the udgī[t/th]a "ā ratnadhā yonim ṛta[sya]," chanted at the beginning of the jyotiṣṭoma yajña, classifies as a uhyagānam rather than an āraṇyagānam]). Hence, I would rather have y'all ask questions if you have any so I can get an idea of what you actually want to know. However, please limit your questions to sāmaveda, not the ṛgveda, yajurveda, or atharvaveda as more than likely, I probably don't know the answer to those (although sudās or kālicaraṇ most likely will).

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Pranam,

I always wanted to know whether or not the portrayal and description of shri rudra in samaveda is identical to rigveda. I presuppose only minute differences or lack thereof

Namaste,

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Originally Posted by ameyAtmA

Since a good portion of the sāma ṛchīs are derivatives of or some even just musical versions of ṛg ṛchīs, perhaps you can show us a map of the ṛg ṛchīs and how they got into sāma in song/music form .
Also, sāma vedists claim that many of the sāma ṛchīs are independant of ṛg . Perhaps you can give us a glimpse of these and show a pattern as to their candidacy for sāma i.e what made these ṛchīs a part of sāma veda .

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Really? The tANDyamahAbrAhmaNam, sAmavidhAnabrAhmaNam, and the jaiminIyabrAhmaNam all view the R^icha-s and sAman as inseperable and the chhAndogyopaniShad even claims that the R^icha is the upholder of the sAma (tadetadetasyAmR^ichyadhyUDhaM sAma). According to the ekAgni kANDam of the yajurveda, the sAmaveda and R^igveda are like husband and wife. To put it in other words, would you ever say that viShNu is independent of shrI or that shiva is independent of pArvatI? No. Similarly, it would be a bit strange to claim that the sAma is independent or not related to the R^icha. Some sAmavedin-s may believe that it is completely independent, but that's probably not a common belief.

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Originally Posted by ameyAtmA

Nice thread . "Of vedas, I am sāma " -- Shri Kṛṣṇa in Vibhūtī Yog , Bhagvad Gītā chapter 10 . Surely there must be big reasons for Him to say that . Our shāstrīya sangeet (Hindustānī classical music) came from this very piece of shāstra -- sāma veda .
Thanks .

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That's true not only for HindustAnI music, but karnATik music as well (probably moreso). Heck, even the saptasvara-s, namely "sA" "ri" (re in Northern India) "gA" "ma" "pa" "dha" and "ni" come from the sAmaveda: sA = ShaDja, ri = R^iShabha, gA = gAndhAra, ma =madhyama, pa =pa~nchama, dha= dhaivata, and ni =niShAda; tyAgarAja (a medieval karnATik composer and bhakta) also alludes to this:

nAda tanumanishaM sha~Nkaram namAmi me manasA shirasA
modakara nigamottama sAmavedasAraM vAraM vAram
sadyojAtAdi pa~nchavaktraja sarigamapadhanI vara saptasvara
vidyAlolaM vidalita kAlam vimala hR^idaya tyAgarAja pAlam

Trans. "Again and again, I heartfully bow my head in obeisance to lord sha~Nkara: the embodiment of music, the giver of joy, the greatest of veda-s, [and] the essence of the sAmaveda. From sadyojAta and the [other of the] five faces, the vara of seven notes, "sarigamapadhanI" [arises]. [Your] moving recitations (svara-s) tear death asunder, O pure-hearted guardian of tyAgarAja."

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Originally Posted by Alter ego

Pranam,

I always wanted to know whether or not the portrayal and description of shri rudra in samaveda is identical to rigveda. I presuppose only minute differences or lack thereof

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Since the vast majority of the actual shabda-s [not counting stobhAkShara-s] of the sAmaveda "come from" the R^igveda, there are no differences in their portrayal of rudra, as the only sAmodgItha-s which do not have their basis in the R^ichamantra-s are all pavamAnastotra-s.

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Originally Posted by Jaskaran Singh

Namaste,

Really? The tANDyamahAbrAhmaNam, sAmavidhAnabrAhmaNam, and the jaiminIyabrAhmaNam all view the R^icha-s and sAman as inseperable and the chhAndogyopaniShad even claims that the R^icha is the upholder of the sAma (tadetadetasyAmR^ichyadhyUDhaM sAma). According to the ekAgni kANDam of the yajurveda, the sAmaveda and R^igveda are like husband and wife. To put it in other words, would you ever say that viShNu is independent of shrI or that shiva is independent of pArvatI? No. Similarly, it would be a bit strange to claim that the sAma is independent or not related to the R^icha. Some sAmavedin-s may believe that it is completely independent, but that's probably not a common belief.

That's true not only for HindustAnI music, but karnATik music as well (probably moreso). Heck, even the saptasvara-s, namely "sA" "ri" (re in Northern India) "gA" "ma" "pa" "dha" and "ni" come from the sAmaveda: sA = ShaDja, ri = R^iShabha, gA = gAndhAra, ma =madhyama, pa =pa~nchama, dha= dhaivata, and ni =niShAda; tyAgarAja (a medieval karnATik composer and bhakta) also alludes to this:

nAda tanumanishaM sha~Nkaram namAmi me manasA shirasA
modakara nigamottama sAmavedasAraM vAraM vAram
sadyojAtAdi pa~nchavaktraja sarigamapadhanI vara saptasvara
vidyAlolaM vidalita kAlam vimala hR^idaya tyAgarAja pAlam

Trans. "Again and again, I heartfully bow my head in obeisance to lord sha~Nkara: the embodiment of music, the giver of joy, the greatest of veda-s, [and] the essence of the sAmaveda. From sadyojAta and the [other of the] five faces, the vara of seven notes, "sarigamapadhanI" [arises]. [Your] moving recitations (svara-s) tear death asunder, O pure-hearted guardian of tyAgarAja."

Since the vast majority of the actual shabda-s [not counting stobhAkShara-s] of the sAmaveda "come from" the R^igveda, there are no differences in their portrayal of rudra, as the only sAmodgItha-s which do not have their basis in the R^ichamantra-s are all pavamAnastotra-s.

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Namaste,

Indeed I was talking of 75 mantras not found in RV. I consider SV an intermediary to RV and Shatarudriyam .Thanks for the info about rudra . BTW, can brhat and ratantara be considered proto SV ganas? http://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/rigveda/rv10181.htm

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Originally Posted by Jaskaran Singh

Namaste,

Really? The tANDyamahAbrAhmaNam, sAmavidhAnabrAhmaNam, and the jaiminIyabrAhmaNam all view the R^icha-s and sAman as inseperable and the chhAndogyopaniShad even claims that the R^icha is the upholder of the sAma (tadetadetasyAmR^ichyadhyUDhaM sAma). According to the ekAgni kANDam of the yajurveda, the sAmaveda and R^igveda are like husband and wife. To put it in other words, would you ever say that viShNu is independent of shrI or that shiva is independent of pArvatI? No. Similarly, it would be a bit strange to claim that the sAma is independent or not related to the R^icha. Some sAmavedin-s may believe that it is completely independent, but that's probably not a common belief.

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You have not read what I said: SOME sāma ṛchī are not from Ṛg , while a majority are.

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from Sāma Veda Vol I & II by Swami Satyaprakāsh Saraswatī & Satyakām Vidyālankār:
99 verses of Sāma do not come from ṚgVed, whereas 1776 verses are a reproduction of Ṛg ṛchī s

(Present Collection consists of 1874 shlok divided into Pūrvārchika, Mahānāmni ārchika and Uttarārchika sections [in sequence.])

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Certainly Sāma and Ṛg are Husband and Wife. Sāma is Shri Kṛṣṇa [Bhagvad Gitā 10.22 - vedānām sāmavedosmi] and Ṛg ṛchī are His Gopis perpetually glorifying Him, the Supreme Lord [bhāgvat 10.87].

Sāma is the Ved that brings ecstatic Love of the Supreme, adding aesthetics & sāma gāyan shāstra to the Ṛg ṛchīs.
EDIT: This Supreme Divine ecstatic love and happiness is depicted as the transcendental Soma Ras, ENDEDIT
which has to be filtered from its Infinite Universal form in a figurative "wooden vessel, and mixed with milk, water, yogurt, honey," to make it ready for the infinitesimal individual yajmān (personal factors).

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Originally Posted by Alter ego

Namaste,

Indeed I was talking of 75 mantras not found in RV. I consider SV an intermediary to RV and Shatarudriyam .

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Why so? Many of the verses in the nAmakam seem more similar to the R^igveda verses and most of the shloka-s/mantra-s therein are composed in an almost prose-like manner in which they could not be incorporated into a sAmagAnam; one verse that comes to mind is "mR^i\_DA no\' rudro\_ta no\_ maya\'skR^idhi kSha\_yadvI\'rAya\_ nama\'sA vidhema te yachChaM cha\_ yoshcha\_ manu\'rAye\_je pi\_tA tada\'shyAma\_ tava\' rudra\_ praNI\'tiShu."

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Originally Posted by Alter ego

BTW, can brhat and ratantara be consider proto SV ganas? http://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/rigveda/rv10181.htm

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Considering the fact that both begin with a prastAva verse and their corresponding pR^iShTa-s end with a nidhanam verse with pratihAra verses in between, most definitely . Technically however, the rathantara is likened to a R^icha and the bR^ihat is likened to the "sAman" (R^igvai rathantaraM sAma bR^ihat). However, I don't know if rathantara in the case you're showing in the link refers to the same thing, as these verses seem to be relating the rathantara to gharma offerings (which are more like milk), whereas in a sAma-vedic context, the rathantara is associated with soma (so that seems a bit odd to me). By the way, the word "ratha" in the word, at a literal level, refers to it's ability to make a sound akin to that of a chariot (tad rathantaramasR^ijata... tasmAdra thantarasya stotre rathaghoShaM kurvanti) but at a deeper level was actually named as such in referring to the loka-s which were passed by the 810 rakSha-s and asura-s (tAnyasurarakShasAni nava navataya imA.N llokAnavR^iNvan rathA ha nAmAsuH te devA rathantareNaiva stutvA rathantaraM samAruhya svargaM lokamagachChan te'bruvannatAriShma vA imAnrathAniti tadeva rathantarasya rathantaratvam).

Namaste,

Please can you explain the uniqueness of sAmaveda. In brief, i know that singing sAmaveda brings tranquility and deva-s become happy.

On youtube, you find a couples of results with keyword 'Sri Rudram samveda'. Indeed it is a pleasure to listen. I am not getting the video in which is kid sings Sri Rudram.

Hari OM

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Originally Posted by Indiaspirituality Amrut

Namaste,

Please can you explain the uniqueness of sAmaveda. In brief, i know that singing sAmaveda brings tranquility and deva-s become happy.

On youtube, you find a couples of results with keyword 'Sri Rudram samveda'. Indeed it is a pleasure to listen. I am not getting the video in which is kid sings Sri Rudram.

Hari OM

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Pranam-s, Amrutbhai:

I would be very much obliged, as well, if Jaskaran-ji can confirm the swara variation in this video: Samaveda Rudram. I, personally, find this recitation to be much sublime and of divine quality.

Regarding the video in which a young child or a kid sings the Samaveda Rudram...could this be it? Click me

Please forgive me for my ignorance of the most noble Shri Samaveda...but is the "Samaveda Rudram" different from "Shri Rudram"?

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Originally Posted by Sudas Paijavana

Pranam-s, Amrutbhai:

I would be very much obliged, as well, if Jaskaran-ji can confirm the swara variation in this video: Samaveda Rudram. I, personally, find this recitation to be much sublime and of divine quality.

Regarding the video in which a young child or a kid sings the Samaveda Rudram...could this be it? Click me

Please forgive me for my ignorance of the most noble Shri Samaveda...but is the "Samaveda Rudram" different from "Shri Rudram"?

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Pranams Sudas bhai,

I have not studied samveda version of Sri Rudram. I will try to get some info.

Here are 2 links

Sri Rudram andra Path
Sri Rudram - Samveda

Thank you

Hari OM