Re: ātman - Stretched Out
In the Katha U. it is stated near the end of chapter 2, "Sitting down, he roams afar. Lying down, he goes everywhere." It appears as if this means the atman extends beyond the physical body.
Re: ātman - Stretched Out
Quote:
Originally Posted by
yajvan
Hari Om
Namaste,
If we look to the Chandogya ( some write chAndogya and even Chhandogya) Upanishad 4.15.1 says the following (beautifully):
The person seen in the eyes , that indeed is the ātman ( or SELF); It is the Immortal; It is the fearless, it is Brahman.
So that ātman that pervades me, is not limited to just my physical boundaries, by the recognition of ātata. It is That which is extended or stretched to pervade the entire being… being = BEING of Brahman.
Namaste yajvanji,
This is of great import and IMO, can never be over-emphasized and over-repeated (when the motive is good).
Upanishads further say that the Man in the right eye and the man in the Sun are same. So, the Man is that, streched out from here to there, in the waking state.
In the dreaming state, the same man becomes light and creates chariots, cities, elephants, sweets to eat -- though those things are not there.
Further the same infinite man (purusha), embraced by the Supreme Purusha is made to lose all distinction in deep sleep.
All these three infinite men (Purushas) are sustained by the Turiya Purusha, called Atman that is Brahman.
Om Namah Shivaya
Re: ātman - Stretched Out
Quote:
Originally Posted by
atanu
Namaste yajvanji,
This is of great import and IMO, can never be over-emphasized and over-repeated (when the motive is good).
Upanishads further say that the Man in the right eye and the man in the Sun are same. So, the Man is that, streched out from here to there, in the waking state.
In the dreaming state, the same man becomes light and creates chariots, cities, elephants, sweets to eat -- though those things are not there.
Further the same infinite man (purusha), embraced by the Supreme Purusha is made to lose all distinction in deep sleep.
All these three infinite men (Purushas) are sustained by the Turiya Purusha, called Atman that is Brahman.
Om Namah Shivaya
Lets know that the real meaning of upanishad is "Parang ba brahma gamayati"which give us the brahma."Avidyadisamsara karanancha Atyantam abasadayati" that mean Avidya,Kam,Karma -they r the cause of "Samsara".If we not know ourself we belive in duality.If we belive in duality then we have many desire.The cause of "kam " is come from the duality that think jiva is a object and brahma another object.That mean they not know the gyan "Ahom brahmashmi" .
Illiteracy give us many view of greediness.This tamoshik desire then work hard to get that object.That mean worshipping karma give us only karma.
Then how a man become selfrealised?He must practice brahma vidya.wat is it?
"Om,Brahma dabanam prathama sambhubaI
Vishaysha karta vubanashya goptaII
Sa brahma vidyam Sarvavidyam-pratishtham
Arthabya jayshthaputriya prahaII1II"-Mundaka Upanishad
Brahma is defined by two mastro as follows.
"Sa purbeshamopi gurukalenanbachadyat"-patanjali(1/26) brahma is the universal teacher.
"Brahma paribredho mahan"-Sankaracarya.Brahma is ultimate.
The meaning of word "Sambhuba" is "Avibakta samakya swatantranetyavipraya" Who come from all direction with all existance.
He is satantra that mean self without bind."Vishaysha karta vubanashya goptaII"-he creat and preserv the universe.He is the brahmavidy ,all knowledge come and unified with this ultimate knowledge.That proves its the mother of all knowledge.Brahma give this massage to his elder son.Who is his elder son?none but the self of full knowledge.In that point u may say do u belive ultimate has son? no I dont belive so I said its answer.
In this point upanishad also said "Atmabat Sarvabhutasu" that mean treat all as u trat urself.
From this point I want to recite to u another hymns of Isha upanishad.
"yastu sarvani bhutÀni ÀtmanyevÀnupasyati,
sarvabhutesu cÀtmÀnam tato na vijugupsate."
But he who sees everywhere the Self in all existences and all
existences in the Self, shrinks not thereafter from aught.
"yasmin sarvÀni bhutÀni ÀtmaivÀbhud vijÀnatah,
tatra ko mohah kah soka ekatvamanupasyatah."
He in whom it is the Self-Being that has become all existences that
are Becomings,1 for he has the perfect knowledge, how shall he be
deluded, whence shall he have grief who sees everywhere oneness?
The degrees of the Lord's self-manifestation in the universe of
motion and in the becomings of the one Being are set forth and the
inner law of all existences declared to be by His conception and
determination.
Vidya and Avidya, Becoming and Non-becoming are reconciled
by their mutual utility to the progressive self-realisation which proceeds
from the state of mortality to the state of Immortality.
If a man knows Atman here, he then attains the true goal of life. If he does not know It here,
a great destruction awaits him. Having realised the Self in every being, the wise relinquish
the world and become immortal.-kena Upanishad
All this, verily, is Brahman. The Self is Brahman. This Self has four quarters.
The first quarter is vaiśvānara. Its field is the waking state. Its consciousness is outward-turned. It is seven-limbed and nineteen-mouthed. It enjoys gross objects.
The second quarter is taijasa. Its field is the dream state. Its consciousness is inwardturned. It is seven-limbed and nineteen-mouthed. It enjoys subtle objects.
The third quarter is prājña, where one asleep neither desires anything nor beholds any dream: that is deep sleep. In this field of dreamless sleep, one becomes undivided, an undifferentiated mass of consciousness, consisting of bliss and feeding on bliss. His
mouth is consciousness.
This is the Lord of All; the Omniscient; the Indwelling Controller; the Source of All.
This is the beginning and end of all beings.
That is known as the fourth quarter: neither inward-turned nor outward-turned consciousness, nor the two together; not an indifferentiated mass of consciousness; neither knowing, nor unknowing; invisible, ineffable, intangible, devoid of characteristics, inconceivable, indefinable, its sole essence being the consciousness of its own Self; the coming to rest of all relative existence; utterly quiet; peaceful; blissful: without a second: this is the Ātman, the Self; this is to be realised.
This identical Ātman, or Self, in the realm of sound is the syllable OM, the above described four quarters of the Self being identical with the components of the syllable, and the components of the syllable being identical with the four quarters of the Self. The components of the Syllable are A, U, M.
Vaiśvānara, whose field is the waking state, is the first sound, A, because this encompasses all, and because it is the first. He who knows thus, encompasses all desirable objects; he becomes the first.
Taijasa, whose field is the dream state, is the second sound, U, because this is an excellence, and contains the qualities of the other two. He who knows thus, exalts the
flow of knowledge and becomes equalised; in his family there will be born no one ignorant of Brahman.
Prājña, whose field is deep sleep, is the third sound, M, because this is the measure, and that into which all enters. He who knows thus, measures all and becomes all.
The fourth is soundless: unutterable, a quieting down of all relative manifestations, blissful, peaceful, non-dual. Thus, OM is the Ātman, verily. He who knows thus, merges his self in the Self; - yea, he who knows thus.
Om śantih; śantih; śantih
Om Peace! Peace! Peace!
Re: ātman - Stretched Out
Namaste yajvan and others.
Is brahman in the universe or the universe in brahman?
yajvan (or someone else) could you explain the following verses from varāha Upanishad? The meaning of "cit-mātra" & "cit-maya"?
cid-ihāstīti cin-mātram-idaṃ cin-mayam-eva ca |
cit-tvaṃ cid-aham ete ca lokāś-cid iti bhāvaya || 2.47 ||
2.47 Whatever is cit (consciousness) in the universe is only cit-mātra. This universe is cit-maya only. You are cit. I am cit; contemplate upon the worlds also as cit.
It relates to your post, but I'd like an explanation of how the words are used if possible. As I figured out so far:
"cit-maya" would mean: "made of, consisting of cit"
"cit-mātra" would mean: "element of cit" or "measure, quantity, sum, size, duration of cit"
ah... lets see what happens...
Re: ātman - Stretched Out
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Ekanta
Namaste yajvan and others.
Is brahman in the universe or the universe in brahman?
yajvan (or someone else) could you explain the following verses from varāha Upanishad? The meaning of "cit-mātra" & "cit-maya"?
cid-ihāstīti cin-mātram-idaṃ cin-mayam-eva ca |
cit-tvaṃ cid-aham ete ca lokāś-cid iti bhāvaya || 2.47 ||
2.47 Whatever is cit (consciousness) in the universe is only cit-mātra. This universe is cit-maya only. You are cit. I am cit; contemplate upon the worlds also as cit.
It relates to your post, but I'd like an explanation of how the words are used if possible. As I figured out so far:
"cit-maya" would mean: "made of, consisting of cit"
"cit-mātra" would mean: "element of cit" or "measure, quantity, sum, size, duration of cit"
ah... lets see what happens...
Namaste Ekanta
Dictionaries can be misleading.
Actually mAtrA means measure and mAtra means 'Sheer' or 'Only'. The meaning here, as per me, is 'Only' or 'Sheer'. For example, using both mAtra and maya, we have a word: hetumAtramaya
(Noun) which means serving (or full of - maya) only (mAtra) as a pretext (hetu).
maya means in this context 'full of' and mAtra means 'only'. Hope it helps.
Om Namah Shivaya
Re: ātman - Stretched Out
hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~
namasté ekanta,
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Ekanta
Namaste yajvan and others. Is brahman in the universe or the universe in brahman?
In kaśmir śaivism it is said that all this is contained within śiva. No part of Him is used up in the least.
When talking of brahman it is most associated with śiva in kaśmir śaivism and at times called the 3rd brahman or tṛtīyam brahma. But what does this mean?
Many times we think of brahman as oṃ tat sat. In this triad the 3rd is sat or sát defined as Being, Existence itself. Above all else this rings true of the nature of Being, of this All.
This sat is significant. From this sat we get sa, and from sa we get sauḥ , one of the most important bīja sounds . It is considered the heart of śiva, and we can see form were it comes.
I mention this just as a perspective not to change the course of the overall conversation.
praṇām
Re: ātman - Stretched Out
Oki Atanu I can agree on cit-mātra when checking it closer.
But cit-maya... I wonder...
If it here means "Full of" it means "something is full of cit", what? OR if its full of cit (100%), then there is nothing else.
If it means "made of cit" then the universe is made of cit...
I cant help viewing every phenomena as cit... maya, shakti, universe etc.
WHICH brings me to my point. Brahman is described as sat-cit-ānanda (eternal characteristics) & nāma rūpa (changing).
On one hand the universe is said to be name & form. On the other the upanishad tells us the universe is cit.
Now... Can it be said that universe/ phenomena/ name & form is a play of cit? A changing play, but still made of cit which is an eternal characteristic of brahman?
??? (hope Im not kidnapping your thread yajvan)
Re: ātman - Stretched Out
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Ekanta
Oki Atanu I can agree on cit-mātra when checking it closer.
But cit-maya... I wonder...
If it here means "Full of" it means "something is full of cit", what? OR if its full of cit (100%), then there is nothing else.
If it means "made of cit" then the universe is made of cit...
Namaste Ekanta
Both 'full of' and 'made of' are nearly ok by me. The form of Universe is full of cit. This can be appreciated if we compare with Aitereya U., where the word praGYaanaM is used.
........ sarva.n tatpraGYaanetraM praGYaane pratishhThitaM praGYaanetro lokaH praGYaa pratishhThaa praGYaanaM brahma
All these have Consciousness as the giver of their reality; all these are impelled by Consciousness; the universe has Consciousness as its eye and Consciousness is its end. Consciousness is Brahman.
(praGYaanaM brahma is a mahavakya).
I am sure that this discussion should be able to complement Shri Yajvan's meanings for this full thread, rather than derail it.
Om Namah Shivaya
Re: ātman - Stretched Out
hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~
namasté ekanta
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Ekanta
On one hand the universe is said to be name & form. On the other the upanishad tells us the universe is cit.
Now... Can it be said that universe/ phenomena/ name & form is a play of cit? A changing play, but still made of cit which is an eternal characteristic of brahman?
This is a reasonable assessment. Note that this condition you mention does not have to be one or the other. That is why this māyā is so important in the śloka.
This māyā is rooted in mā - measured. It is as if the Infinite is measured out into the finite. To us it looks as though this is true, yet it is not. The infinite never loses its dignity even in the constraints of the finite.
This is way the word comes to be known as illusion, deception , fraud , trick. Just as I look at an iceberg, it seems to be a small hill that sticks up above the water, yet with knowledge we know it is a huge mountain that goes very deep. That is the illusion. Like that - this Infinite Being cannot be constrained. It is us that is not seeing clearly.
It is by the application of the ointment of knowledge applied to our eyes ( says the upaniṣads) that gives us clarity.
Good questions - keep them coming.
praṇām