The Ramayana Contradictions

[Omkara]

Btw Jodha,which version of the Ramayana did you read?I would recommend readibg the translation of the original acailable very cheap from Gita Press rather than retellings or abridgements.

[vikz22]

Vikash has asked here that if the populace did not like lakshman,would Rama have sent him away too?

The answer is,Rama banished the person his subjects did not want as their queen.He was simply doing has duty as a king by submitting to the wishes of his subjects.

In a dharmic polity,a ruler is accountable to hus subjects.The traditional hindu coronation ceremony included a ritual where the king would stand before his subjects and proclaim that he is supreme and that there is no one above him.Then the priest would whack him thrice with a stuck,saying "No,for you,too are subject to dharma."

There are examples in our scriptures of rulers being replaced for incompetence and misrule like king vena and nahusha.

A public official must be above reproach.Sita,though she was chaste, waa suspect in the eyes of the people,and in a dharmic polity, a king is subject to the will of the people.

Rama's sacrifice may seem too terrible to us,but that is why he is perfect and we are not.

thanks Omkara for your response, it has clarified things greatly!

[Jodhaa]

Btw Jodha,which version of the Ramayana did you read?I would recommend readibg the translation of the original acailable very cheap from Gita Press rather than retellings or abridgements.

Namaste Omkara!

Thank you for your replies. The version I read was translated and retold by Ramesh Menon. It is quite a lengthy prose version. I know the original is an epic poem but I was not able to find a complete version of it. Many of the poetic versions are abridged. So I felt it was better to have a more complete prose retelling than a poetic version with actual missing pieces. But I will look up your reference and see if I can get my hands on a copy. Many thanks!

Peace.

[Omkara]

You can download a full translation for free on this website itself from the hdf library.Go to the top of the page and click the library button.
A translation is also available at www.valmikiramayan.net

[Jodhaa]

You can download a full translation for free on this website itself from the hdf library.Go to the top of the page and click the library button.
A translation is also available at www.valmikiramayan.net

Thank you, Omkara!

[Seeker123]

Namaste!

....Until the end, when he banishes the pregnant Sita to the wilderness in order to regain the respect of his people.

Thank you!

Uttarakanda is considered a later addition
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ramayan...rarajan-106-11
The Valmiki Ramayana book published by Bharatiya Vidya Bhavan has only 6 kandas. Uttara Kanda is supposed to be the 7th kanda which has the controversial Sita banishing episode.

On a different note Rama lived as a human. Only in the 6th Yuddha Kanda do all Devas come and reveal he is the Vishnu. We can get into arguments as to how that is possible etc etc. but the main take away from Ramayana is that Rama is the embodiment of Dharma and as humans we should aspire to follow Dharma like Ram rather than just praying to Ram as God without following Dharma.

[Jodhaa]

On a different note Rama lived as a human.

Thank you for your contribution Seeker.

I had been avoiding the question of whether Rama should be discussed in terms of his "human-ness" or his divinity. But since you have brought it up I will comment.

It is my personal belief that Rama's humanity makes him even more admirable rather than just considering his actions as the divine. Still, I have been receiving mixed messages about how to approach Rama.

Some say because of his divinity, Rama did not face the troubles of human emotions and false thinking. But Rama displays quite a bit of emotion in the Ramayana - to the point of tears. I don't read this as weakness. I think his divinity allowed him to be a better person - if that makes any sense at all. He was a more realized human being throughout the story, and then fully realized at the end.


Peace.

[philosoraptor]

Rama is the Supreme Brahman Himself. His "humanness" is an act, a mere sport on His part. He doesn't need to be told He is the supreme person, because He knows that by virtue of His omniscience. When He takes avatAra it is for the purpose of restoring dharma and annihilating miscreants. All of this has to be understood properly.

If memory serves, the devas informing Him of His supremacy took place in the context of their urging Him to take back Sita after the defeat of Ravana.

kartaa sarvasya lokasya shreShTho jJNaanavataaM prabhuH |
upekShase kathaM siitaaM patantiiM havyavaahane || 6-117-6
kathaM devagaNashreShThamaatmaanaM naavabuddhyase |

"How do you, the maker of the entire cosmos, the foremost among those endowed with knowledge and an all-capable person, ignore Seetha who is falling into the fire? How do you not recognize yourself to be the foremost of the troop of gods?"

ante chaadau cha lokaanaaM dR^ishyase cha paraMtapa || 6-117-9
upekShase cha vaidehiiM maanuShaH praakR^ito yathaa |

"O the destroyer of the adversaries. You are seen (to exist) at the beginning and at the end of creation. Yet, you ignore Seetha, just like a common man."

siitaa lakShmiirbhavaan viShNurdevaH kR^iShNaH prajaapatiH || 6-117-28
vadhaarthaM raavaNasyeha praviShTo maanuShiiM tanum |

"Seetha is no other than Goddess Lakshmi (the divine consort of Lord Vishnu), while you are Lord Vishnu. You are having a shining dark-blue hue. You are the Lord of created beings. For the destruction of Ravana, you entered a human body here, on this earth."

tadidaM nastvayaa kaaryaM kR^itaM dharmabhR^itaaM vara || 6-117-29
nihato raavaNo raama prahR^iShTo divamaakrama |

"O Rama, the foremost among the supporters of righteousness! The aforesaid purpose of ours has been fulfilled. Ravana has been killed. Return to your divine abode, with a rejoice."

In other words, while Rama was intent on His course of action for as yet reasons unclear, the devas were merely trying to tell Him that He had accomplished the purpose of this avatAra and could take back Sita now.

But still Rama did not do so until her chastity had been demonstrated to all present by the intervention of Agni-deva.

avashyaM chaapi lokeShu siitaa paavanamarhati |
diirghakaaloShitaa hiiyaM raavaNaantaHpure shubhaa || 6-118-13

"Seetha certainly deserves this pure factory ordeal in the eyes of the people in as much as this blessed woman had resided for a long time indeed in the gynaecium of Ravana.

baalisho bata kaamaatma raamo dasharathaatmajaH |
iti vakShyati maaM loko jaanakiimavishodhya hi || 6-118-14

"The world would chatter against me, saying that Rama, the son of Dasaratha, was really foolish and that his mind was dominated by lust, if I accept Seetha without examining her with regard to her chastity."

ananyahR^idayaaM bhaktaaM machattaparivartiniim |
ahamapyavagachchhaami maithiliiM janakaatmajaam || 6-118-15

"I also know that Seetha, the daughter of Janaka, who ever revolves in my mind, is undivided in her affection to me."

imaamapi vishaalaakShiiM rakShitaaM svena tejasaa |
raavaNo naativarteta vela miva mahodadhiH || 6-118-16

"Ravana could not violate this wide-eyed woman, protected as she was by her own splendour, any more than an ocean would transgress its bounds."

pratyayaarthaM tu lokaanaaM trayaaNaam satyasaMshrayaH |
upekShe chaapi vaidehiiM pravishantiiM hutaashanam || 6-118-17

"In order to convince the three worlds, I, whose refugee is truth, ignored Seetha while she was entering the fire."

na cha shaktaH suduShTatmaa manasaapi hi maithiliim |
pradharShayitumapraapyaaM diiptaamagnishikhaamiva || 6-118-18

"The evil-minded Ravana was not able to lay his violent hands, even in thought, o the unobtainable Seetha, who was blazing like a flaming tongue of fire."

neya marhati chaishvaryaM raavaNaantaHpure shubhaa |
ananyaa hi mayaa siitaa bhaaskareNa prabhaa yathaa || 6-118-19

"This auspicious woman could not give way to the sovereignty, existing in the gynaecium of Ravana, in as much as Seetha is not different from me, even as sunlight is not different from the sun."

vishuddhaa triShu lokeShu maithilii janakaatmajaa |
na vihaatuM mayaa shakyaa kiirtiraatmavataa yathaa || 6-118-20

"Seetha, the daughter of Janaka, is completely pure in her character, in all the three worlds and can no longer be renounced by me, as a good name cannot be cast aside by a prudent man."

If there is any one consistent feature of Rama's behavior, it is that He does precisely what must be done to set a good example for the rest of us. This He does even when it involves great personal sacrifice on His part. Why is this so? Because a king should also behave like this, that is to say, put the material and spiritual needs of his subjects above even his own. He has to have the respect of the people and cannot be seen as one who transgresses dharma while requiring others to follow it.

Certainly Rama could have heeded Brahma's advice and simply ended His pasttimes then and there. But as regards to the character of Sita and His own character as a husband, He had yet another lesson to teach. The wife in Vedic culture is dharma-patni. A man is not eligible to perform sacrifices without his dharma-patni. Hence her character is as important as his. Though He would have no doubt about her character, it is the people and the devas who might. Hence, the agni-pariksha.

[Jodhaa]

Once again, Philosoraptor, like many other in this thread, you have explained beautifully and clearly.

Now that I have understood this concept more clearly I do realize how it was so difficult for me in the beginning. The Western mind, in general, demands that "love conquer all" for the alternative seems depressing and hopeless. But in reality, love is not so simple. And where love and duty intersect it gets very complicated.
Now, of course, in the Ramayana, Love indeed does triumph, just not in the way most people expect or are used to.

Thank you again!

Peace.

[devisarada]

Namaste Jodhaa,

Perhaps next time you will ask your questions with less anger and more humility.