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Thread: This has to stop D:

  1. #11
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    Re: This has to stop D:

    Namaste,


    I am even thinking about making a little more, like a devotionnal website with informations and links to scriptures.
    This may not help the 10000 idiots, but if at last it can interest and convince 2, I would be happy.

    Aum Namah Shivaya
    Hdf was created with the same thinking in mind. It would be nice to see other people take on similar initiatives.
    satay

  2. #12
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    Re: This has to stop D:

    Misinformation is only part of the problem. Another part is that people willingly ignore authentic sources of information and actually prefer those resources that suit their own ingrained misconceptions. You could try to teach these people all you want, but they're not going to listen.

    There are also so many people who come to Hinduism and ask questions like, "can you teach me how to have a better orgasm" or "do you know where to find more information about tantric intercourse and lasting longer in bed." That is all they are interested in, in these cases teaching them anything about Sanatana Dharma is not worth your while. Better not to waste your breath trying to teach them anything. Let them go to their new age guru who will pick hundreds of dollars out of their pocket. If people have a certain view of Hinduism and look down upon it, we don't owe them any explanation. I am not going to sit down with them to have a conversation.

    We shouldn't be complaining that Hindus don't teach anything. Learning is an active process and a large part of it involves self study (svadhyaya). Those who are dedicated will find the proper resources and put their time and effort in studying them. I see many people, mostly Hindus, complaining that the Pundits don't teach anything, but they can't even take half an hour out of their day to study Sanskrit. The Arsha Vidya Gurukula teaches Paninian Sanskrit completely for free online, how many people are regularly reviewing those classes? Most people are waiting for a guru to hold his hand on their heads to impart them all his sacred knowledge.
    Last edited by Sahasranama; 01 September 2012 at 01:24 PM.

  3. #13
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    Re: This has to stop D:

    First of all:
    Modern therapeutic sex tantra started with the indian born Guru Bhagavan Rajneesh´s (later called Osho) modern interpretation of tantra, all the important teachers of todays neo tantra are still disciples of Rajneesh.
    The idea that Jesus is an Avatara or enlightened being that Islam and Christianity are equally valid path to God or truth, go back to Indian Gurus like Paramahamsa Yogananda, his teacher Lahiri Mahasaya, Vivekananda Ramakrishna, Satya Sai Baba etc.
    The focus on bodily postures in Yoga goes back to Indian Gurus like Swami Shivananda, Swami Kuvalayananda, Krishnamacharya etc.
    A more philosophical, psychological or sociological approach we can find in new age and neo advaita often shows the influence of teachers like Krishnamurti, Ramana Maharishi Nisargadatta and Aurobindo.
    So most of the so called "misinformation" mentioned in this thread has its origin in India and has been taught by Hindus, the impression that these ideas have developed in the west independent of Hindu Gurus is incomplete, western disciples simply repeated what their eastern Gurus have taught them.
    Secondly:
    Then I ask you to keep in mind that sexuality, literal worship of a living female, or of the female sexual organ and male Linga, use of intoxicants as part of Sadhana is a traditional Hindu practice and not an invention of Bhagavan Rajneesh or Neo Tantra. Compared to some of the Hindu practices the Neo tantra is toned down. So if you think that Neo tantra is disgusting do not further inquire about Hindu tantra.

  4. #14
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    Re: This has to stop D:

    Quote Originally Posted by MahaHrada View Post
    First of all:
    Modern therapeutic sex tantra started with the indian born Guru Bhagavan Rajneesh´s (later called Osho) modern interpretation of tantra, all the important teachers of todays neo tantra are still disciples of Rajneesh.
    Even before Rajneesh there was interest in tantrik sex from western occultist psychopaths like Aleister Crowley. Rajneesh was just another psychopath who used Tantra for his personal gain.
    The idea that Jesus is an Avatara or enlightened being that Islam and Christianity are equally valid path to God or truth, go back to Indian Gurus like Paramahamsa Yogananda, his teacher Lahiri Mahasaya, Vivekananda Ramakrishna, Satya Sai Baba etc.
    The precursor of universalism had already been developed by the trancendentalists based on their misconceptions on the Bhagavad Gita and Upanishads. Vivekananda also was largely influenced by the theosophic society and other Indian societies that were influenced by protestantism.

    A more philosophical, psychological or sociological approach we can find in new age and neo advaita often shows the influence of teachers like Krishnamurti, Ramana Maharishi Nisargadatta and Aurobindo.
    Even before that Carl Jung started to develop psychological theories on kundalini and chakras, also under the influence of the theosophic society.

    The focus on bodily postures in Yoga goes back to Indian Gurus like Swami Shivananda, Swami Kuvalayananda, Krishnamacharya etc.
    It even goes further back than that, but it was a holistic Hindu tradition. In the west it has become this mishmash of fitness, universalism and capitalism.
    So most of the so called "Misinformation" mentioned in this thread has its origin in India and has been taught by Hindus, the impression that these ideas have developed in the west independent of Hindu Gurus is incomplete, western disciples simply repeated what their eastern Gurus have taught them.
    I wouldn't blame the west alone, it's definitely a joint effort of westerners and some Indian gurus who were under the influence of western ideology. Aurobindo for example grew up in England as an atheist away from his parents, studying classical languages in a catholic school and eating sausages from the local butcher. Some of the early birds in the west who were interested in Hindu teachings, particularly the transcendentalists, did philosophise on their own account without the aid from Indian gurus and their works are still very popular in today's spiritual crowd.

    Secondly:
    Then I ask you to keep in mind that Sexuality, literal worship of a living female, or of the female sexual organ and male Linga, use of intoxicants as part of Sadhana is a traditional Hindu practice and not an invention of Bhagavan Rajneesh or Neo Tantra. Compared to some of the Hindu practices the Neo tantra is toned down. So if you think that Neo tantra is disgusting do not further inquire about Hindu tantra.
    The vedas go even further in sexual rites compared to tantra, so personally I am not disgusted by the idea of worshipping a linga/yoni. But I don't take neo tantrik sexuality seriously.
    Last edited by Sahasranama; 01 September 2012 at 02:52 PM.

  5. #15
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    Re: This has to stop D:

    Quote Originally Posted by MahaHrada View Post
    Then I ask you to keep in mind that sexuality, literal worship of a living female, or of the female sexual organ and male Linga, use of intoxicants as part of Sadhana is a traditional Hindu practice and not an invention of Bhagavan Rajneesh or Neo Tantra. Compared to some of the Hindu practices the Neo tantra is toned down. So if you think that Neo tantra is disgusting do not further inquire about Hindu tantra.
    Vanakkam MahaHradaji

    I don't have any problem with Tantra, no problem with sex, no problem with drugs. Those last two are the problem of the people concerned with it. For my side, I have a balanced sexual life and never smoke or felt the need of any drugs. Not that I am against it, I just don't care, so it's not a problem. My man is even a Pagan following the Godess cult, so see, I have nothing against those things.

    The problem is the ignorants that practice it and distord it in a really disgusting manner. I wonder if you have seen recent posts of certain people on HDF before being deleted, this was a really good exemple of what I am talking about...
    [edit: more specifically the topic where porn was meditation and "I feel self love bhakti when I masturbate" was a sadhana. This guy didn't even knew any Tantric form of God or Godesses...]

    But please, don't think I am against any Tantra practice of that I find them disgusting. I have great respect for Tantra and it's practionner, but no respect towards some as we have seen here that spread disgusting things about Tantra and Sanatana Dharma.

    Aum Namah Shivaya
    Last edited by McKitty; 01 September 2012 at 03:05 PM.
    ~Aum Namah Shivaya~

  6. #16
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    Re: This has to stop D:

    Namasté,

    In the past, before I was Hindu or knew much at all about Hinduism, I occasionally encountered people who were seeking respect, validation, or a sense of being empowered, chosen, or special. Some of these folk clung to labels - like "Tantric" - and tried to elevate their esteem by a name or practice. I also met a few atheists or non-spiritual people who sought a better understanding of spirituality by something they could concretely experience - sexual intercourse, through "Tantra" - rather than abstract prayer to an invisible, distant, and illogical God, whom they had been taught (mostly through Christianity) that people "believed in" rather than "experienced." They didn't intend harm, depravity, or perversion.

    But whether deliberately, or through blindness about their true intentions, some of these folks said they were "Tantra" in order to feel like they were part of a Special People Club, to create shock value and/or respect. A calm response seemed to "take the wind out of their sails," by removing that "Wow!" reaction to which they were accustomed.
    To the few I spoke to directly, I said that I was under the impression Tantra was a series of special practices to worship God, that there was a ton more to it than just "intercourse," and that it wasn't usually something people talked about - or introduced themselves by, anyway.
    I then suggested that if sexuality with a spiritual mindset was the goal, they might do much better reading books about strengthening relationships through spiritually-minded sexuality, and/or searching out information about the practice called karezza. (One gentleman did actually find a few of the books I suggested, and realised he'd bitten off far too much in claiming to be "Tantra," so at least it did a bit of good.)

    Anyway, I'm just sharing what worked for me in terms of talking to the few people I encountered, in person, who branded themselves as "Tantra" - namely, rerouting them in a direction where I thought their actual interests might be better served. I don't know if it will help anyone, but might serve as a starting point for a useful idea or two.

    Indraneela
    ===
    Oṁ Indrāya Namaḥ.
    Oṁ Namaḥ Śivāya.

  7. #17
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    Re: This has to stop D:

    Quote Originally Posted by Sahasranama View Post
    The vedas go even further in sexual rites compared to tantra, so personally I am not disgusted by the idea of worshipping a linga/yoni. But I don't take neo tantrik sexuality seriously.
    So what exactly is the disgust here? Tantra is not a homogeneous subject and gives a lot of room for individual desires. Extant tantras range from those which appear like smritis to ones which will might make neo tantrics look like amateurs about sexual orgy. Generally, tantra is an entirely lineage driven and what it is and is not is completely on the Guru and Guru parampara. Many of the neo tantrics have Indian gurus, and that they pick and choose from different tantras is sanctioned by their gurus -or should be.

    If anyone has actually studied tantra, they will know there is no other way than pick and choose - because those books are merely samketas intentionally self obscuring and contradictory. But the pick-and-choose is driven by the lineage, generally.

    So pick-and-choose is not valid criticism of those who practice tantra. Maybe people who are outsiders and unfamiliar to this system will make such claims. The valid criticism is to ask if one "is or is-not" following a tantric lineage with proper initiation. Initiation is the only need to be a tantrika and sadhana according to guru-upadesha is the only need to achieve siddhi.

    I know what my problem is with some of the neo tantrics - and that is narcissism. Most of the need for 'tantra' tag is just the neurotic need to be certified oneself with something sacred. But one can hardly blame westerners or neo tantrics on count of narcissim. Our country is full with saffron clad "psychopaths" with pathological narcissism who address crowds sited only golden thrones OR dispense "shaktipata" simultaneously to thousands of people for a fee. Since I have personal brushes with how fragile of so called "traditional" Guru egos can be, I am pretty much sure blaming just a small fringe group of neo-tantrics will be big injustice.

    So, I am not getting what the rest of the noise is all about, except being another generic burst towards the west compounded with little or no familiarity with the topic at hand [a.k.a tantra] which is ironic given topic is criticizing others for something similar.
    Last edited by Twilightdance; 01 September 2012 at 04:23 PM.

  8. #18
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    Re: This has to stop D:

    Just to lighten the mood in this thread...

    Wisdom from American Pie on Tantra here.

  9. #19
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    Re: This has to stop D:

    Quote Originally Posted by wundermonk View Post
    Just to lighten the mood in this thread...

    Wisdom from American Pie on Tantra here.
    That was wisdom alright! LOL

  10. #20
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    Re: This has to stop D:

    Quote Originally Posted by Twilightdance View Post
    So what exactly is the disgust here?
    I did not express any feelings of disgust, the problem I expressed here was also not about picking and choosing, but with making stuff up. In the west this has started with Aleister Crowley who knew very little of Tantra and started his cult based on the misinformation he obtained from Victorian scholars about Hindu Tantra. What Mahahrada was saying is that all misinformation is spread from Indian gurus alone and this is not a honest representation of facts. You know that I have also criticised Indian saffron clad psychopaths and have even lost my account several times for doing that.

    And I am also not denying that narcissism has something to do with the topic at hand. But I think there is some deeper problem ingrained in western spirituality, not just with western tantra, but in general to misrepresent Indian traditions. I am not sure if you are familiar with all the bullshit that goes on in the west in the name of Tantra. I am not saying that it is disgusting or anything, simply that they make this stuff up and give it some Indian name for whatever reasons.

    Not every westerner with an Indian guru is necessarily associated with an authentic lineage, Osho for example is not teaching from any authentic lineage. He just made stuff up to attract attention.
    Last edited by Sahasranama; 01 September 2012 at 06:07 PM.

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