This has to stop D:

**MahaHrada** · 01 September 2012, 06:02 PM

Originally Posted by Sahasranama

Even before Rajneesh there was interest in tantrik sex from western occultist psychopaths like Aleister Crowley. Rajneesh was just another psychopath who used Tantra for his personal gain.

Whether one considers Rajneesh (or Aleister Crowley ) as enlightened Masters or Psychopaths, as authentic or nonauthentic has precious little to do with their influence or non-influence, on Neo-tantra which is what i am concernend with in this posting. I am an eye witness of the rise of the Rajneesh Movement and before he became an important Guru in India and the West one could not find a trace of sexual oriented tantra in the West.

I did not express any feelings of disgust, the problem I expressed here was also not about picking and choosing, but with making stuff up. In the west this has started with Aleister Crowley who knew very little of Tantra and started his cult based on the misinformation he obtained from Victorian scholars about Hindu Tantra. What Mahahrada was saying is that all misinformation is spread from Indian gurus alone and this is not a honest representation of facts.

Aleister Crowley never called himself a tantric and his erotic mysticism was based on the teachings of the "Ordo Templi Orienties" a masonic order whose lineage was traced back to the Order of the Knights Templar and he was inspired by the teachings of the "Ecclesia Gnostica Catholica" (gnostic catholic church) founded by french occultists going back to christian heretics called "spermo gnostics." But later, after his demise, there have been connections between disciples of Crowley like the late Head of the typhonian O.T.O and others to Hindu tantrics.

I did not say that all misinformation spread from indian gurus alone, i said all what was called misinformation in this thread goes back to Hindu teachers.

I mention this because it it is not up to me to decide whether Osho Rajneesh, Vivekananda, Ramakrishna, Shivananda, Satya Sai Baba, Krishnamurti, Aurobindo, Nisargadatta, Papaji, Yogananda, Amma, Ramana Maharishi etc. spread misinformation or truth and it is irrelevant whe all i want to express is that these teachings are no inventions of westerners but these teachings and also the so called "Godman" like Satya Sai Baba are a part of modern Hinduism and not a product of the west, whether you like it or not is a different question.

Clearly these teachings of neo-tantra, universalism, sociological and psychological interpretations of Hinduism are teachings of Hindu Gurus, and it is only natural that the opinions of Gurus are repeated by their followers.

Traditional Tantra and traditional Hinduism by its nature is rarely if at all taught to Westerners, so how can a sane person expect from an average western spiritualist to have knowledge of a subject even an average indian born hindu has no access to?

The precursor of universalism .....

....may still exist even today and may include C.G Jung or Annie Besant or Madame Blavatsky but famous Hindus like Ramakrishna and Vivekananda and Mahatma Gandhi or Dayananda Sarasvati from Arya samaj certainly had a much greater influence besides that Hindu Universalism even predates Colonialism and include teachers like Madhvacharya who also held the opinion that his dvaita Vedanta was closer related to Islam then to advaita and buddhism and acted accordingly. Also Nath Panth Yogis were often allied with the Sufis of the Chistiya silsila and tantric Buddhists, universalism is not a western invention.

**MahaHrada** · 01 September 2012, 06:39 PM

Originally Posted by McKitty

Vanakkam MahaHradaji

I don't have any problem with Tantra, no problem with sex, no problem with drugs. Those last two are the problem of the people concerned with it. For my side, I have a balanced sexual life and never smoke or felt the need of any drugs. Not that I am against it, I just don't care, so it's not a problem. My man is even a Pagan following the Godess cult, so see, I have nothing against those things.

The problem is the ignorants that practice it and distord it in a really disgusting manner. I wonder if you have seen recent posts of certain people on HDF before being deleted, this was a really good exemple of what I am talking about...
[edit: more specifically the topic where porn was meditation and "I feel self love bhakti when I masturbate" was a sadhana. This guy didn't even knew any Tantric form of God or Godesses...]

But please, don't think I am against any Tantra practice of that I find them disgusting. I have great respect for Tantra and it's practionner, but no respect towards some as we have seen here that spread disgusting things about Tantra and Sanatana Dharma.

Aum Namah Shivaya

I have not seen these postings so i can only very generally speak about neo tantra. I don�t think ignorance about the meaning of tantra and misuse of tantra is a western problem, sadly india has a much worse problems with so called babas aghors and tantrics.

You are not against Hindu tantric practices because you don�t know anything about the misuses that exist in India, i never heard of any criminal acts like for instance human sacrifices, incest, necrophilia, cannibalism, prostitution, castrations in neo tantra. Compared to such things and things even worse that are happening in India in the name of tantra, masturbation or pron as a way of meditation seems to me almost spotless behaviour.

And it pains me more to see Sanatana Dharma and Hindu people more and more associated with those practices that have absolutely NO spiritual benefits for ANYONE.

That the misuse of the Tantra in the West pales into complete insignificance in comparison to the misuse in India, thats what pains me.

**izi** · 01 September 2012, 10:16 PM

Whether one considers Rajneesh (or Aleister Crowley ) as enlightened Masters or Psychopaths, as authentic or nonauthentic has precious little to do with their influence or non-influence, on Neo-tantra which is what i am concernend with in this posting. I am an eye witness of the rise of the Rajneesh Movement and before he became an important Guru in India and the West one could not find a trace of sexual oriented tantra in the West.

The Hevajra Tantra (for example) had been published (widely) in Europe and the Americas well before Rajneesh arrived on the scene. I can point to others as well but this should suffice to quell the notion that Osho/Rajneesh introduced the West to tantra as it is easily looked up through the ISBN records. I know for example there was a lot of information on Tantra available in Berkeley back in the 60's and 70's. I think people were interested in its stance against the traditional - Tantra is ancient, yet it was started as a sort of revolution against dogma.

Whoever you quoted as saying Crowley got his information from other Victorians is also incorrect. Crowley visited India, China and the Himalayas himself and also did many translations himself. He was a man, partly enlightened and partly deluded imo - though not psychopathic - he never killed anyone and was quite popular. No one can determine whether someone is enlightened or not, so it's best to mind our own business.

The OTO is also not a Masonic organization - they have their roots in Hermeticism which derives from the mystery schools of Greek, Egypt and Rome in their heyday.

I am not sure what the OP is going on about except that they are uncomfortable in their own skin, as the body itself usually comes attached to a penis or a vagina. You are never going to stop Sakti's union with Siva....if that's what this is all about. People live in a weird world of ideas and have no concept of energy. They are mostly ignorant of their own bodies. Pretty much everything in life is sexual whether they know it or not. Some people are having really bad sex, at the level of their religion, at the level of their relationships....and definitely at the level of metaphysics.

The most important precept of tantra is the same as the axiom attributed to Hermes Trismegistus in The Emerald Tablet - As Above, So Below. Another important precept of tantra is the following "Every female is Sakti, every male is Siva." Just treat your husband like Siva, and wife like Sakti.

Furthermore the indulgence of tamsic behavior will lead to enlightenment if you are following the proper procedure. One extreme will lead to a boomerang effect in the opposite direction. (The Chinese Sages studied this extensively in their treatise on Bigrammaton, The I Ching) Tantra is about redirection, not being afraid of one's own shadow but properly directing it. The redirection of energy when done appropriately leads to understanding, knowledge, enlightenment.

Tantra is about attaining a proper mental asana towards reality and attaining god consciousness.