Conversion: Do we want you?

[Eastern Mind]

Vannakkam: In some other faiths that shall go unmentioned by name here, it seems anyone can convert easily just by saying, "Now I'm a _____." There is no application or testing process. All characters and criminals may feel free to enter, and the evangelicals put another mark towards the quota. What happens? You get all kinds, not necessarily helpful to your faith at all. I believe in some ways this happened in ISKCON. People 'converted' for all the wrong reasons, or without any qualifications, in particular, self-discipline. Then look at the results. In some other faiths, jailed criminals 'convert' because they think there is a better chance of parole if they can profess to a faith, and I'm sure some judges look favorably on that.

So as Hindus, although we preach a certain type of openness and acceptance, do we really want any Tom, Dick, or Harry? Do we want criminals. pedophiles, critics of India? Since there is no central authority on it, it's up to us to make suggestions, and ask questions like:
"Do you really know what you're getting into?"
"Do you really accept some basic tenets?"

In the west there is this sense of entitlement that comes with living in a 'free' society. "I can do what I want!" I think some days this runs contrary to building a strong religion. If we just accept anybody, then they go do stupid things, no wonder all of us end up sharing the result ... others thinking Hindus are a foolish lot. Some days I wish it was more like some monasteries. "Go sit by the wall for a year, and beg entrance. Then we'll talk." Some people would only last a couple of hours.

Aum Namasivaya

[Jodhaa]

Namaste EM,

Your post reminded me of a humorous, although brief period in my life when I was a teenager.

At some point, my friends and I decided we were Wiccan. Yup. Just up and said one morning, "Let's be witches. That sounds like fun." It literally lasted about 2 weeks. The reason why is simple - we didn't take it seriously and had zero concept of what being Wiccan actually meant. So, once we realized what it was, we quickly lost interest. We didn't actually want to take on the responsibilities and beliefs that came along with that statement.

This is the best case scenario though. We were dumb teenagers and thank goodness no one takes us seriously at that age, so for the most part, no harm, no foul.

Problems do arise when adults start behaving this way -and when they do it for longer than 2 weeks. It's my personal belief that one may come to feel a connection to a religion or faith, but it is irresponsible to claim to be a member of that faith if you don't know how to represent yourself.

That being said, I'm unsure what the solution would be to the problem you pose. I have received mixed messages about conversion into Hinduism, so I'm not sure where to begin. I have been told that one must be born into a Hindu family in order to be Hindu. I have also been told that conversion is possible if only you change your name and break ties with your former religion in a formal way. But then again, I have also been told that anyone who wishes to be Hindu, may simply begin living as a Hindu - no pomp and circumstance required.

If the last case is true, it should come as no surprise that anyone and there mother chooses to claim to be Hindu if it suits them. If there is no hard and fast rules about conversion, there's an easy opening.


Peace!

[Eastern Mind]

Vannakkam Jodhaaa: Yes there is certainly a wide range there. I like to think, but I could be wrong, that I'm a net contributor to the faith, not a net taker. I guess we shouldn't be surprised then when someone 'represents' us in some way we disagree with. But I take solace that individual subsets, (Brahmin priests, followers of traditional Gurus, some temple groups, some sampradayas) do have people take vows or otherwise prove their commitment. For me that works. It's a bit like professional athletes versus recreational athletes, in contrast. Or casual singers, and trained singers. Anybody can lead a bhajan, but certainly not anyone can be a concert carnatic musician. I guess, in the end, like the diversity of it. Still I think somebody needs to say when its not Hinduism at all.

Aum Namasivaya

[ShivaFan]

Namaste EM
You cannot get away from bad initiates, disciples, what to speak of bad "born Hindus" whether in India or any other country. Luckily, and typically, they are a small minority..

I think just as much a problem as aberrant individuals who take the title Hindu, whether born as Hindu or welcomed to SD or adopted into an authorized path, is those who may be small in numbers but who have an enormous impact to the "bad publicity" of Hinduism before the entire world, and that is the impact of "bad Gurus" of which there have been some from India who were given all the authorized mantles and titles to such Guruship and then become a disgrace, caught in all kinds of money schemes, deviations or pedophilia, even worse in some cases. Luckily, such are a minority as well, though it looks particularly bad when they come from India.

Do we want them? And what is to be done about them? There is no "Hindu board", no Pope or Grand Mufti if you will, who given enough time even if there were would eventually give the world a despotic and vice ridden materialist.

So, that is the nature of Kali Yuga. Here is a video of an Indian Guru trying to actually kill by tantric power another critic on Indian television. There is no lacking in the ability, or authority, of some characters, though they all get their commence sooner or later, and Deva and Devi always sort it out for us in the end though without missing the opportunity to teach us all a good lesson in the proces.

Om Namah Sivaya

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=NpwCuv_izn4

[izi]

I believe it is god that decides religion, not man. Even though I was born "Hindu" I accept people's beliefs even if they are not my own. For instance, I think Christians are really just following their dharma. I used to get really upset about it. It's such a simple religion but that's like what they need to stop killing people or doing other awful things that displease Lord Ananta. He is the one who causes them to accept this or that religion. We do not have any say.

One of the teachers at the Krsna temple where I was taught turned out to be a pedophile and he was molesting the boys in the dorm next door. I didn't know until 20 years later but that was really creepy. I was also spanked by the teacher who was married to the guy that was the child molester and later she apologized to me. Which I accepted, because it was wrong people should not hurt children.

I think the question would be more properly phrased "Do we want you hanging out where we worship and be allowed to be near our children". You can't offend god who has the right to this decision solely by saying whether someone may worship or not...one may attain enlightenment at any time by an unknown door so may as well try them all...it is every living being's right to seek the supreme absolute and integrate themselves in accordance with the eternal law.

[ShivaFan]

Namaste Izi

Eastern Mind is correct in one thing – for some, “conversion” to Hinduism is too easy. But there can be different reasons for that. But in truth, it is uncommon that some “Hindu monk” or other reached out to “convert” a “Westerner” – that really isn’t part of the “Hindu way”. Typically, it is the other way around. Hindusim is “just there”, right in front of them, the Gita, Ramayana perhaps the “first book”, they see the temple(s), they see “Hindus”, they really are impressed and amazed. They feel it is “natural” or even “part of themselves” and their soul.

And I somewhat agree with you Izi, that in some cases God decides. I am not sure if I am 100% on the same page as you regarding the decision can be any religion, but I do think that sometimes Deva or Devi uses direct intervention and for God’s own reason will project to someone who had no intention of even considering Sanatana Dharma, and because of this intervention they are transformed entirely.

Sometimes “devotees” get really excited. They engage on all sorts of “projects”. The next thing you know, a “new temple” comes to life. Others come. Even sometimes some real losers if you will.

Since the discussion is about such characters and criminals, let’s start with child molesters for example.

There is nothing I despise more than that. I respect even a murderer more. You mentions the “Krsna temple” where you were schooled. I am sorry that a pedophile was molesting boys at that school. We all know that there were several noteworthy cases of such horrors which were covered extensively by the news media in the US and around the world related to some ISKCON matters. It is absolutely true. There is a famous book on this called “The Monkey on a Stick”. I read that book. And I am aware of the truth of what happened, and of the “Bad Gurus” among the “12” intial “GBC”. I am sorry you were so close to perhaps such a danger, and yes it is wrong for anyone to hurt a child.

In regards to child molestation, I recall a study from Boston University from the early 1990’s which provided the statistics that unequivocally demonstrated that the statistical odds of your child being molested by a public school teacher were notably much higher than being molested, for example, by a Catholic (Christian) priest. Of course, such statistics in part are due to simply the fact that there are more students under the authority of public school teachers than there are those under the authority of the Catholic Church officials so simply the opportunity is more prevalent. But the point being, the Catholic Church is in the news due to bad priests, but there is bad found everywhere and more molestations occur from school teachers than Catholic priests.

There is bad within any circle, whether it be called a religion, or a community, or an institution, or the military where suppose discipline is enforced, or in government, or in the Boy Scouts, or in a local chess club, or in a charity organization, or in anything.

Some religions go out and purposely solicit new converts, some aggressively do so. Hinduism does not. So yes, we see Christian groups going to prisons to convert. ISKCON was mentioned by Easter Mind, I see reports that ISKCON has sent some to visit a prison and distribute the Bhagavad Gita. But Hinduism does not use proselytization methods, the most notable of faiths which not only use such methods but even force is Islam.

All faiths seem to have their problematic adherents. And yet, among all faiths, at least from my personal observation for what such perspective is worth if anything, those who practice Hinduism (Sanatana Dharma) are the most moral, peaceful, up righteous in personal conduct. And in regards, to those who claim such personal conduct as their mantle the most, specifically adherents to Islam, I have seen academic writings regarding the factual and rampant issue of rape of women, sexual and psychological deviancy, social misfit isolationism and other major social problems very pronounced though hidden within the general population of Islamic cultures and communities.

But whether I personally feel very proud of the moral example of Hinduism and Sanatana Dharma doesn’t change the fact that within it are found deviants and criminals, even if less so than perhaps others of adharmic faiths. It is there nevertheless, there is no real answer to this dilemma other than to continue steadfast with the traditions and principles, to have confidence in Deva and Devi, in Guru and in all levels of Hindu culture. Simply to say “do we want you?” means little, even if we totally remove “converts” (which really may not be “conversion” at all, but rather Deva or Devi for whatever is Their reason having sought out the “non-Hindu” rather than the other way around, or the “new” Hindu simply discovering SD though no “Hindu” ever even reached out to this person, there are many, many reasons).

Let us take the example which removes “converts” to Hinduism entirely from the discussion, and simply put the question “Do we want you?” in terms of “born Hindus”, and specifically Hindus born of Hindu parentage in India and have undertaken the tradition life processes that mark the stages of life of a Hindu and the teachings of Sanatana Dharma. I suppose, such blessed souls, simply by being born Hindu have levels of good karma that are thus rewarded. I suppose one could argue, they have met all the “application and testing process” necessary. Yes?

So the concern in the initial discussion was “all characters and criminals” is an issue. We don’t want them. We don’t want pedophiles. We don’t want those who project Hindu values simply for hope of a better parole, that some judge would look favorably upon them. That they will not be critics of India. That they will not do stupid things.

But all of the above, can and will be found among those “born Hindus”. Must less so than most other faiths, but they are there. All characters and criminals will be found. Pedophiles. Those who were born to wonderful Hindu parents, had performed the rites and life traditions of Hinduism and Sanatana Dharma, but actually do not give any credence to any of it but are simply “going through the motions” if you will. Some of them are in prision. Some of them try to then project Hindu values in hope of a better parole, that some judge will look favorably upon them but in fact they do not care in the least if they are Hindu or not. Many of them are sever critics of India. Many of them do very stupid things.

Many of them did not have the vaguest idea what they got themselves into, nor even ask themselves the real hard questions such as “do you accept the basic tenets?”. Many of them want to go to the”big City” so they can live in a “free society”. And even some think Hinduism is something else, that actually Hinduism means “I can do what I want!” because, for whatever reason, that “it is all Brahman” or any kind of ideation. Some will have been born Hindu, raised Hindu, performed the rites of passage, and then they get their job in computer science and if they were actually expected to sit by the wall for a year” as in a monastery, they would be on the first rickshaw to a Bollywood movie, and if they have time they may “stop by the temple” once a week (maybe).

There is no one I am more grateful to than the people, the Hindus, the practitioners in India of Sanatana Dharma. So may call India “Mother India” for a reason. Because India is the Mother of “Religion”. She is the Mother of the World. And I am about to say something that, may upset some and in particular those who are members of ISKCON, both in India and the West. And so, I mean absolutely no disrespect in what I am about to say, and if taken in the wrong manner, please forgive me, and I know I will suffer any consequences or Karma if I present a falsehood, or another stupid mistake that Westerners may often do.

It has to do with what some Vaishnavs, and some great devotees, and which I have heard ISKCON devotees tell me. And that has to do with the residents of the Holy town of Vrindavan.

It is my understanding, that anyone born in Vrindavan is very, very special. No one can be born there unless for a reason, and it is a blessing. All the souls and residents of Vrindavan should be considered holy by visitors. And I have been to Vrindavan, and I can testify right now that they are blessed, I respect them as holy, I am honored to be in their presence be they a rich land owner or the poorest of devotees. Liberation and moksha are doors that await those who can see Vrindavan. Radha and Krishna are the residents there.

I want to ask something in regards to “Do we want you?” and jailed criminals.

Are there any prisons or jails in Vrindavan?

There is a jail in Vrindavan. There is a police station ready. So it even among “born Hindus”, there are Hindus sitting in jail. Not many. But they are there. In Vrindavan. Do we want them?

You know, while there is not even a comparison to a criminal held in the police station or jail in Vrindavan or Mathura which is just nearby, it is my understanding that Lord Krishna was born in a prison.

If I had my choice, though I have no choices in any of these matters, there would be no criminals allowed in Hinduism. There would be none of the characters we see all over the world, and yes more so within “new Hindus” than “old Hindus”, there is no question about that. But the world has a long way to go. There are no simple answers.

Well, actually for those more advanced, there are simple answers, and a path to moksha which may not be simple in physical terms, but is obtainable as proven by Saints, Yogis, Gurus, arhants, and Devotees, and others. I do not tell anyone to give up anything. I do not tell anyone to give up their birth, to give up their time for simple things like chanting, singing, and those Bhakti type things. I can only live in my world which is not as bad actually, for me personally. I have a very nice world. I have a very easy life. I am lacking nothing. I like bhajans. I like seeing Murthi of Deva and Devi. I am not a Buddhi. I like vibhuti. I like prashadam. I like the wonderful Gurus, Saints, mystics, sages, sacred texts, in fact I love all of that. I love India. That is all know. But I do learn so much from others, such as Eastern Mind for example and some of his thoughts he shared in this post. Or from so many others from this Forum. I believe Lord Shiva and Mother Parvati Themselves read this forum from time to time.

If not all the time?

Om Namah Sivaya

[Eastern Mind]

Vannakkam: I didn't really post this topic to discuss the bad guys in our midst. It was more just for general discussion.

I get a bit concerned about this idea of entitlement. Jodhaa illustrated it well in the story of she and her friends becoming wiccan ... for two to three weeks. I remember watching some movie about a kid who wanted to marry a certain girl. When she said "No." He just couldn't handle it, and kept repeating, "But I want to marry you." So it was all about himself. Eventually her father or some older brothers stepped in and got a restraining order... my memory is foggy, but it was like that. The boy had to be told in no uncertain terms.

So I see this ... not to the same extent, but sort of. Sometimes it just a 'this is what I'm going to do for awhile'. This is also another reason why I personally favour a name change. It shows a commitment, not just 'on a whim'. But that's just me, coming from a traditional sampradaya. Just for example, I'm under 4 vows myself.

But I agree there is no logical solution to the matter, but if anything comes of threads like this at all, I hope it would be at least a second thought towards a commitment of some kind. In Guru circles, there is this term 'Guru-hopping" where individuals are committed to non- commitment, running hither thither, and switching each time some small thing bothers them.

The same idea is prevalent with Gurus ... "I follow ______." when ______ doesn't know you from a hole in the ground. I'd be happier if one said "I read these books by _______ and really like them, or they had a profound influence on me."

Sorry for ranting. I got 'inspired' by an event at our temple recently.

Aum Namasivaya

[Leena]

Namaste EM,
I wish there was some sort of initiation process or test toundergo so that new devotees who are self-proclaimed Hindus who are studying ontheir own, such as myself, can be sure that they are understanding the faith. It could be given by the pandit at the templeor the devotee’s guru, if they happen to have one. And I completely agree with westerners havingthe mindset of “I live in a free society, I can do what I want!” People whotruly want to convert to SD would see this way of thinking as something egocentered. So perhapsthe biggest test for a convert could be how well they understand their own ego and how willing they are to drop it. It’s a great topic, thanks forasking!

Leena

[Eastern Mind]

Vannakkam Leena: It's not people like you that are the 'problem' not that there's really a problem at all. You're humble about it. Maybe that's the key. I appreciate people like you.

I'm a baby at it as well, even though it's been almost 40 years now. It's the young man who approaches me and, retaining his proseltysing mind set from a previous belief system, starts telling me all about Hinduism, not realising I've been at it 40 years and he's been at it 6 months.

Aum Namasivaya

[izi]

This is a little dark but it is my personal belief after years of reading the Vedas but I think everyone, every single atom in the universe is so called "Hindu". I try to use that word sparingly because it's so grossly inaccurate.

It's either an eternal law or it's not. You are already "Hindu" because you will heed to the eternal law, whether you are in ignorance or darkness. If you can break the law and get away with it, it wasn't real to begin with.

If you don't obey the law, then there are consequences. If the law is misinterpreted somehow? Same thing. Consequences.

Nobody needs to be converted.

However...formal conversion will always always always benefit the individual. Even saying one of the names is enough to improve things for that person. Even if they are a criminal, they deserve help. Everyone deserves to be enlightened - very often this will mean that the bad part of them ceases to exist.