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Thread: Christian Friend attacks Hindu idea of God!

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    Christian Friend attacks Hindu idea of God!

    Namaskara,

    Glad to have found this forum. This is my first post.

    I am a Hindu, but I am beginning to have doubts about certain aspects of this religion, especially the ones concerning God. A Christian friend of mine says Hinduism is atheistic, because if everybody is god, there is no god. He also says the concept of illusion, whatever that is, makes Hindus weak and lazy. He gives the instance of Indians being indolent, callous and uncaring. He attributes all this to Hinduism.

    What are we to do?

    Regards,
    Maruti

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    Re: Christian Friend attacks Hindu idea of God!

    Hari Om
    ~~~~~
    Quote Originally Posted by maruti View Post
    Namaskara,

    Glad to have found this forum. This is my first post.

    I am a Hindu, but I am beginning to have doubts ...What are we to do?
    Regards,
    Maruti
    Namaste maruti,
    Welcome to HDF. May a I recommend a few ideas? First , not to worry. It will be good to read the many posts on this site. They are rich with ideas, truth, insights, debate, and the like.
    Give yourself a few weeks here, then ask this same question later once you had a chance to study.
    What others say about Sanatana Dharma is their issue. The world is as you are. If one is wearing red glasses then everything is red, yes? If others find fault with others, they take on the sin of the other individual.

    You have no obligation to go and debate/defend Sanatana Dharma. The best defense is to live the values and become an exponent of the Supreme. People measure others by there actions and behaviors - so says Krshna in the Bhagavad Gita Chapt 2 and 3.

    So give yourself some to to read these posts... soak in it, ask and ponder the info and add to the forum.

    pranams,
    Last edited by yajvan; 09 February 2007 at 02:52 PM.
    यतस्त्वं शिवसमोऽसि
    yatastvaṁ śivasamo'si
    because you are identical with śiva

    _

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    Re: Christian Friend attacks Hindu idea of God!

    Namaste Maruti,

    Yajvan has given you some good advice. You need not be concerned about your Christian friend's opinion of Hinduism. Remember, Hinduism is defined by it's followers, the Hindus, not by what others say. Nevertheless, your friend has put some doubts in your mind, so you're here. Hopefully, you will be able to understand Hinduism better and dispel your doubts.

    Quote Originally Posted by maruti View Post
    A Christian friend of mine says Hinduism is atheistic, because if everybody is god, there is no god.
    Maruti, do you believe there is logic in this statement?

    He also says the concept of illusion, whatever that is, makes Hindus weak and lazy.
    Really? Have you known any Hindus like this, Maruti? I have never known any Hindu anywhere who sits down in a corner and says, the world is an illusion, I am doomed. Neither does Hinduism or any of its philosophies teach that.

    He gives the instance of Indians being indolent, callous and uncaring. He attributes all this to Hinduism.
    Do you find this to be true? I find that there are indolent, callous and uncaring people all throughout the world, regardless of religion. I don't think the percentage of people who are like that in Indian Hindu society is any different than anywhere else. Does Hinduism teach us to be indolent, callous and uncaring? Absolutely not, it tells us the exact opposite.

    OM Shanti,
    A.



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    Re: Christian Friend attacks Hindu idea of God!

    Namaste Maruti,

    Welcome to HDF. For a starter, you might ponder on these points.

    Quote Originally Posted by maruti View Post
    A Christian friend of mine says Hinduism is atheistic, because if everybody is god, there is no god.
    Sunlight is reflected in every source of polished surface, including the eyes of all living beings. So your Christian friend would say that there is no sun?

    The electricity resides in the dual form of electron or energy in everything, from the tiny atom of a stone to the biological cell of life. So your Christian friend would say that there is no electricity?

    Quote Originally Posted by maruti View Post
    He also says the concept of illusion, whatever that is, makes Hindus weak and lazy.
    Maya is not a concept of illusion, but one of conditional reality. It is easy to realize that the reality and existence of everything in this universe is conditional and time bound. Your Christian friend's present job is also a conditional reality; he might be fired tomorrow! Would this make him weak and lazy and indifferent to his job?

    Human life is maya because it is a conditional reality, not illusion. Your friend might die tomorrow, so why toil in life and not just stay lazy and be satisfied with what he has?

    Quote Originally Posted by maruti View Post
    He gives the instance of Indians being indolent, callous and uncaring. He attributes all this to Hinduism.
    Indians are considered as the best in the corporate, intellectual, academic and other areas of life. Bill Gates was asked the question, "If all the Indians in Microsoft, USA, quit their jobs and get back to India, what would you do?" Gates answered, "Simple. I would change the Microsoft headquarters to India."

    If an accident happens on the road, a pale westerner would go on his way, unconcerned; whereas an Indian would rush to help out.

    A westerner deserts his parents on marriage; he even deserts his wife on flimsy grounds, but that is a different matter. There is no concept of a joint family system or communal living in western countries, unlike in India. Who is more caring? Is not Christianity the reason for such islands of life in the West?

    The phrase "Trust me" is often used in conversation in the West. This very phrase speaks volumes of the western attitude and concern.

    Indians, whatever their religion, even if they follow the shallow Abrahamic religions, have their timeless culture and tradition running in their blood, which was fostered by Hinduism on the foundation of the Vedas. They would certainly make a positive difference wherever they reside.
    Last edited by saidevo; 08 February 2007 at 09:29 PM.

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    Re: Christian Friend attacks Hindu idea of God!

    Namaste MG,

    Quote Originally Posted by MysticalGypsi View Post
    Saidevo, you are being sort of hard on us pale Westerners!
    I am very sorry if I have offended you as a Westerner in any way. It was not my intention to generalize the criticism. Please read further down.

    Quote Originally Posted by MysticalGypsi View Post
    Why don't we agree that every culture has a wide variety of people and all sorts of personality types-industrious, lazy, caring, uncaring, spiritual, non-spiritual, wounded, non-wounded, committed, non-committed.....
    Yes I do agree completely with your statement. People of every culture, including the Indian culture have their positive and negative points. I, for example, who speak all these things, have given raise to the just criticism of being careless about my words. I do have several other shortcomings as a human being. There are several Indians who are lazy, uncaring and unspiritual unlike several Westerners who are active, caring and very spiritual. And the Indian politicians have the distinction of being most corrupt in the world!

    Then why did I generaize?

    Quote Originally Posted by MysticalGypsi View Post
    And, so you cannot really say "all Indians" or "all westerners" or "all Hindus" or "all Christians". There are millions of people in every group.
    When my Christian friend tells me "Hey you Indians are lazy, uncaring, indolent, callous and weak--all these because of your Hindu religion" I would naturally retaliate in the same tone and say, "What about you Westerners? You are even worse than us, because that is what your religion has made you to be?"

    The counter I have suggested to Maruti is in the same friendly and conversational way, for what his friend told him. In a personal conversation it is easy and friendly to generalize without meaning it to its depth. What I have suggested is a way for Maruti to counter his friend. It is not my considered opinion that I would put it in black and white, so please do not mistake me for being flippant in friendly conversation.

    Quote Originally Posted by MysticalGypsi View Post
    And, Maruti, my advice would be to listen to all the posts given and not your friend, who is not giving good counsel to you.
    Yes, Maruti, you shoud consider all the posts here, but I don't think your friend is serious about his comments and criticism. He might be under the wrong impression, in which case, it is easy to make him see reason. If he is, on the other hand, serious about his criticism, well the best way is to leave him at that.

    And MG, I hope I have made myself clear. Or do you still think that I have somehow managed to wriggle out of the situation?

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    Re: Christian Friend attacks Hindu idea of God!

    Thanks for the welcome, Saidevo. You're right, there's no point in arguing with these people. That said, he did raise some valid points.

    Quote Originally Posted by saidevo View Post
    Sunlight is reflected in every source of polished surface, including the eyes of all living beings. So your Christian friend would say that there is no sun?
    Actually, his point was this: You need a frame of reference and only with respect to it, you say there's a god. That would be missing, if we consider everthing to be god. So in a way, if everything's god, nothing's god.

    Maya is not a concept of illusion, but one of conditional reality. It is easy to realize that the reality and existence of everything in this universe is conditional and time bound.
    I know, but when I told him, he asks pointblank: if maya is accepted as reality, it'll be a contradiction in terms. If not, the question remains.
    Last edited by satay; 10 February 2007 at 01:29 PM. Reason: parts of post deleted; please read Site rules

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    Re: Christian Friend attacks Hindu idea of God!

    That is a very sad story, about the girl. Large crowds in cities seem to make humans act like animals sometimes.

    Regarding your friend, if y'all wish to persist in the tit for tat debate, you might ask him if he thinks Ted Haggard, the former *leader* of tens of thousands Evangelicals is representative of Christians?

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ted_Haggard


    ZN
    yaireva patanaM dravyaiH siddhistaireva choditA .
    shrI kauladarshane chApi bhairaveNa mahAtmanA .

    It is revealed in the sacred doctrine of Kula and by the great Bhairava, that the perfection is achieved by that very means by which fall occurs.

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    Re: Christian Friend attacks Hindu idea of God!

    Namaste Maruti,

    Your friend is totally confused between a system and the people who are supposed to follow the system. You cannot find fault with the system for the shortcomings of the people who are supposed to follow them. If we do it, then Science would be the worst culprit, followed by Christianity and Islam. People are the same, whether they are Hindus, Scientists, Christians, Muslims, atheists or others.

    The only observation that merits a reply to your friend is this quote of him:

    Quote Originally Posted by maruti View Post
    Actually, his point was this: You need a frame of reference and only with respect to it, you say there's a god. That would be missing, if we consider everthing to be god. So in a way, if everything's god, nothing's god.
    The frame of reference is the Canvas (as SwamiJ would explain) on which everything takes place. The Canvas is in everything and everything is in the Canvas. They are inseparable. The only difference between them is that the manifestations on the Canvas change with time and space, whereas the Infinite Cavas itself is unchanging and eternal.

    By the bye, is your Christian friend an outsider or is he within you?

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    Re: Christian Friend attacks Hindu idea of God!

    Pranam Maruti

    Remove the veil of hiding behind an imaginary friend only then there can be a meaningful exchange.

    Look at the flaw in your argument, large number of highly intelligent Indians in relation to population are insignificant to you, where as one incident, though highly deplorable, you condemn the whole of India.

    Coming back to that incident, a thoroughly shameful event, everyone regardless of what religious background they come, should condemn it, there is no place for this anywhere, this is exactly what I meant when I said if we imitate western ways our Dharma is in danger and lets face it, shameless revellers,on a new year's eve ain’t exactly an Indian culture, is it?

    Jai Shree Krishna
    Last edited by Ganeshprasad; 10 February 2007 at 04:11 PM.
    Rig Veda list only 33 devas, they are all propitiated, worthy off our worship, all other names of gods are derivative from this 33 originals,
    Bhagvat Gita; Shree Krishna says Chapter 3.11 devan bhavayatanena te deva bhavayantu vah parasparam bhavayantah sreyah param avapsyatha Chapter 17.4 yajante sattvika devan yaksa-raksamsi rajasah pretan bhuta-ganams canye yajante tamasa janah
    The world disappears in him. He is the peaceful, the good, the one without a second.

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    Re: Christian Friend attacks Hindu idea of God!

    Maruti, I think there is no need to discuss the existence of your friend or your intentions.

    You have posted questions you feel to be relevant to your understanding of Sanatana Dharma and we, as a community, have done our part in answering them.

    Here is my contribution:

    A Christian friend of mine says Hinduism is atheistic, because if everybody is god, there is no god.
    Now, does that sound logical to you?

    I will give you an example as to why it is not.

    Would you agree that the ideas of sin and sinners are central to Christian theology?

    According to your friend's logic, because everybody is a sinner according to Christianity, nobody is a sinner or rather, sin doesn't exist. And if sin or sinners don't exist, there is no need for a Jesus.

    Does that make sense to you? If that doesn't seem logical to you, there is no reason for your friend's statement to seem logical.

    He also says the concept of illusion, whatever that is, makes Hindus weak and lazy. He gives the instance of Indians being indolent, callous and uncaring
    Now, my brother, do you live in India? Well, it doesn't matter, but listen to this:

    Your friend has characterized, as you say, Indians as being "indolent, callous and uncaring". Do you, as an educated individual, believe that it is possible to label and to generalize the nature of one billion people?

    I suppose you have heard about a Hindu named Gandhi. Is there any better epitome of the ability of humans to care?

    Your friend also assumes that all Indians are Hindus. In reality, 20% of Indians do not believe in Hinduism.

    Now, tell me what makes them "indolent, callous and uncaring"? Is it then Christianity (assuming they are Christians), is it Islam, is it Sikhism, and so on and so forth?

    Once again, wouldn't you agree that his argument seems to be fickle?

    ---

    Satay, could you perhaps send me the link our friend, Maruti, posted in a pm.

    I would appreciate the opportunity to respond to the accusations in a reasonable manner.

    ---

    Maruti, being probably the only one from your age group in these parts, I would welcome the opportunity to discuss these things with you over IM, if you would like.
    Last edited by indianx; 10 February 2007 at 06:02 PM.

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