Lord Shiva in The Vedas

[philosoraptor]

Thanks for the references. Of note, some of those merely praise Rudra. The ones that are more important I think are the ones that clearly indicate supremacy.

Just out of curiosity, how do Shaivites interpret the mantra from the taitirrIya-saMhitA indicating that from nArAyaNa, both brahmA and rudra are born? (see http://acharya.org/vedopanishad/Nara...nishad-eng.pdf) for the complete text in Sanskrit. I mean, that reference is pretty clear, and this pramANa is from Krishna Yajur Veda which one would think would be acceptable to all. Specifically, the nArAyaNopaniShad is the 10th chapter of the taittirIya Aranyaka.

[Ganeshprasad]

Pranam Omkara and others,

Nice compilations, your effort will certainly benefit everyone who are on Shiva path.
Jai Shiva Shankar

you might wish to check this blogger he has some nice material on Lord Shiva.
http://mahapashupatastra.blogspot.co.uk/

Jai Shree Krishna

[Omkara]

Rudra here is Bhairava,who is charged with destruction.In Saivism,Rudra and Shiva are different.Shiva or Brahman is called Rudra because he drives away the miseries of Samsara(from the word root ruddravayita).
Rudra who is charged with destruction is called Rudra in the sense of Howler or destroyer or teriffic being.

Narayana is Shiva.Vaishnavas argue that Narayana means he wgo dwells on the primal waters and thus is a personal noun indicating Lord Vishnu and thus cannot be used for Shiva.Saivites say that while Vishnu is called Narayana because he dwells on the Ocean,that is not the sense in which the word is used when Narayana is glorified as the Supreme Being.We interpred Narayana as meaning Nara+Ayana or that in which all beings inhere where nara is used as a synonym of purusha or atman in the plural case.Thus Narayana becomes a common noun and can be applied to Shiva.
I think this interpretation suits the context better.


EDIT-

Just out of curiosity, how do Shaivites interpret the mantra from the taitirrIya-saMhitA indicating that from nArAyaNa, both brahmA and rudra are born? (see http://acharya.org/vedopanishad/Nara...nishad-eng.pdf) for the complete text in Sanskrit. I mean, that reference is pretty clear, and this pramANa is from Krishna Yajur Veda which one would think would be acceptable to all. Specifically, the nArAyaNopaniShad is the 10th chapter of the taittirIya Aranyaka.

The verses you put up are not in the tenth chapter of taittrya aranyaka.The tenth chapter of taittriya aranyaka,which is indeed called the narayana upanishad or the mahanarayana upanishad,can be found translated in pdf by swami vimalanananda.A simple google search for 'mahanarayana upanishad pdf' will get you the file as the first result.For some reason the link is not working when I paste it here.
http://www.philaletheians.co.uk/Study%20notes/Secret%20Doctrine's%20Proposition%201/Mahanarayana%20Upanishad%20-%20tr.%20Vimalananda.pdf


http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahanarayana_Upanishad

[Omkara]

Pranam Omkara and others,

Nice compilations, your effort will certainly benefit everyone who are on Shiva path.
Jai Shiva Shankar

you might wish to check this blogger he has some nice material on Lord Shiva.
http://mahapashupatastra.blogspot.co.uk/

Jai Shree Krishna

The post proving that the Shiva vs Vishnu fight in the Ramayana is an interpolation was awesome but the post about vishnu's three steps starts off asking the right questions but then goes off on a completely wrong tangent.The author does a nice job of proving that the three steps cannot refer to vamana avatar but fails to understand that the translation of three steps is wrong.The three padas of Vishnu(Brahman) are the lower padas of mandukya upanishad while the highest pada of Vishnu is Turiya.The refutation of AB 1.1 also starts of on the right note and then gets messed up.

The refutation of RV 7.40 is completely wrong.Here is how Sayana interprets that verse-
This Varuṇa, the leader of the rite, and the roya Mitra and Aryaman, uphold my acts, and the divine unopposed Aditi, earnestly invoked: may they convey us safe beyond evil. I propitiate with oblations the ramifications ( vayāḥ) of that divine attainable Viṣṇu, the showerer of benefits. Rudra, bestow upon us the magnificence of his nature. The bestow upon us the magnificence of your nature The Aśvins have come down to our dwelling abounding with (sacrificial) food.

The hotr is praying to be given Rudra nature which is nothing but the bliss of rudra referred to in other verses.

For a better Rig Veda translation than Griffith,refer to www.geocities.ws/ravi_sans
The translation there by the Sindhu Saraswati project strictly follows Sayana's commentary.

[Omkara]

Brahman creating Brahma,Vishnu and Rudra is supported by the Maitrayani Upanishad and Atharvaveda Book 15.

[Omkara]

My personal inclinination towards regarging Shiva as supreme comes from verses like RV 7.59.12 which is a prayer for liberation to the three eyed one.Surely this cannot be interpreted as Vishnu being referred to as Tryambaka.
Or YV 1.8.6 where Rudra is called one without a second and asked for liberation and referred to as three eyed one and wearer of skins.Again this does not seem amenable to the interpretation that Vishnu is referred to as Rudra.
And the Sri Rudram which calks Rudra three eyed one,dweller on the sacred mount,he who is with Uma etc and glorifies Rudra as the supreme being and refers to Vishnu as a hypostasis of Shiva by calling him Shipvisista which is the epithet exclusively reserved for vishnu in that veda.ain any case I do not want to start a Shiva vs Vishnu debate here as I have not completed my studies or come to a final conclusion yet.I am not interested in proselytising.

[Equinox]

Vannakkam

Shiva is sort of like the modern evolved form of the vedic Indra.

I remember reading somewhere that in temples, when there are no statues of Indra, Varuna, Vayu, etc, one can generally worship Shiva in Their place.

Their worship is important in the field of Hindu astrology as some of Them seem to be the guardian deity of the planets and various aspects of Hindu astrology.

Interestingly, I've not come across any source which mentions that any other deity can be worshipped in the place of these Gods(in the case where Their statues aren't available in the particular temple or at home).

In my opinion, this only goes on to show that Shiva can also be seen as Indra, which means both of Them are connected in one way or another.


Aum Namah Shivaya

[philosoraptor]

Actually, Vaishnavas accept both interpretations of the etymology of "nArAyaNa" (the primeval waters one and the one indicating all beings in here in Him). Also, names like "rudra," "maheshvara," and so on are accepted as name of Vishnu and listed as such in the Vishnu-Sahasranama-stotra.

It's not really clear to me that interpreting the relevant shrutis from a Shaivite perspective gives a stronger or more consistent interpretation than a Vaishnava one. To summarize the different points of view as I understand them to date:

Vaishnava View: nArAyaNa in the Yajur Veda is clearly a Supreme Being and is understood to refer to the Lord of Lakshmi. It is He from whom all other deities are created. Any and all references to Brahman are understood to mean nArAyaNa from the principle that there can be only one supreme deity/Brahman. This means references to "Rudra," "Indra" etc as referring to a supreme deity are understood to mean Brahman aka Naaraayana.

Shaivite View: nArAyaNa in the Yajur Veda is clearly a Supreme Being but is understood to refer to Umapati. It is He from whom all other deities are created, except, if I understood you correctly, that Shaivites equate Shiva with Vishnu rather than treating Vishnu/Lakshmipati as a created being. Furthermore, the "rudra" created by nArAyaNa in Yajur Veda refers to a deity other than Shiva. However, "rudra" in numerous other shruti references quoted by you earlier is understood to be Shiva. Not exactly consistent, but then one could argue that "Vishnu" does not always refer to Naaraayana, too. Presumably, Shaivites would interpret mantras like "oM tad viShNoH paramaM padaM sadA pashyanti sUrayaH" (RV 1.22.20) as referring to Shiva also.

[ShivaFan]

Namaste

Frankly what I've been told is Shiva, or for that matter Narayana or Vishnu, does not care about titles or endless debates such as Who is Supreme, nor does what is called by some the Supreme Brahman. Of course all the authorized holy texts have vital importance to those such as myself, and that is why sharing resources such as from Omkara are so very much appreciated..

Let me ask a question. I am told that upon request, Lord Ganesh Who is the wonderous Son of Shiva, scribed the Mahabharata which includes the words of Krishna in the Bhagavad Gita, with His right tusk so that it is documented for living souls including myself. I consider this happened. I suppose some others consider it fables and mythology.

So I have also heard Ganesh said that Shiva is All Things. And this same Ganesh scribed the words of Krishna, for so important was this task of The Scribe that He sacrificed His own Tusk to complete the task, of which the words of Krishna say that He, Krishna, is All Things.

Think about it. Ganesh said Shiva is All Things. And Ganesh Himself wrote down the words spoken by Krishna who proclaimed Himself as All Things.

This is why I love the Gods.
This is why I like to have a direct relationship with them. There is immediate results, and not just talk or readings. Of course talk and readings are wonderful. And so are so many things about Hinduism.

Om Namah Sivaya

[Omkara]

I am not very clear on the ontological position of Vishnu in Shaivism.
Vishnu is a created being but not entirely different from rudra either.The relationship is like the relationship of the vyuhas to narayana.
AV 15.14.5 and YV 4.4.9 talk of Rudra "becoming Vishnu".Mahanarayana Upanishad says "Salutations to Rudra who is Vishnu".

I have seen Vaishnavas argue that narayana cannot refer to Rudra as it is a personal noun indicating Vishnu only,which is why I said what I did.
Katha Upanishad 3.9 is interpreted in support of vishnu in the vishnu sukta being rudra.The word adhva therein is said to refer to the adhvas of saiva agamas.RV 1.43.9 refers to Rudra living in the highest abode.