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Thread: Maya Dreamer Analogy

  1. #31
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    Re: Maya Dreamer Analogy

    My post was directed towards devotee and other neo advaitins who keep using this analogy despite the fact that it has been disowned by Shankaracharya himself.
    namastE astu bhagavan vishveshvarAya mahAdevAya tryaMbakAya|
    tripurAntakAya trikAgnikAlAya kAlAgnirudrAya nIlakaNThAya mRtyuJNjayAya sarveshvarAya sadAshivAya shrIman mAhAdevAya ||

    Om shrImAtrE namah

    sarvam shrI umA-mahEshwara parabrahmArpaNamastu


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  2. #32
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    Re: Maya Dreamer Analogy

    This is a public message board. PPl are free to comment to any post as long as it is within the rules of the board...

    Wanna speak with devotee alone? Private Messaging is your friend.

    Now, back to the actual argument on hand, if we may.

  3. #33
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    Re: Maya Dreamer Analogy

    Of course, I was only pointing out that my post was in the context of the posts above and not intended as a general challenge to advaitins.

    Very well, how about the Mandukya Upanishad quote? Since the previous verse talks about Parinamavada, it is clear from the context that this verse is talking about Vivartavada alone.

    Frankly, no matter how many times advaitins claim that their mithya is different from asat or that their position is not simply the buddhist position with slight difference in terminology, they have struggled to substantiate this.Eg. See Madhusudhana Saraswati's response in the Advaita Siddhi when asked to differerentiate mithyatva and asat.It is another matter that by definition everthing that is not real is unreal...
    namastE astu bhagavan vishveshvarAya mahAdevAya tryaMbakAya|
    tripurAntakAya trikAgnikAlAya kAlAgnirudrAya nIlakaNThAya mRtyuJNjayAya sarveshvarAya sadAshivAya shrIman mAhAdevAya ||

    Om shrImAtrE namah

    sarvam shrI umA-mahEshwara parabrahmArpaNamastu


    A Shaivite library
    http://www.scribd.com/HinduismLibrary

  4. #34
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    Re: Maya Dreamer Analogy

    There are varying levels of reality accepted by Advaita. We can keep going around in circles, calling each other neo-this, neo-that, etc. But for a long time (before dismissing another's opionion by calling him neo-this, neo-that became fashionable), "neither real nor unreal" was considered by Advaita to be a valid ontological classification.

    Another thread I started may point towards this.

  5. #35

    Re: Maya Dreamer Analogy

    A philosophical system that must rest on redefining the very nature of reality is not one that is established on sound footing. That Advaitins accept "varying levels of reality" is not a response to the original objection, viz that things are either real or they are not.
    Philosoraptor

    "Wise men speak because they have something to say. Fools speak because they have to say something." - Plato

  6. #36
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    Re: Maya Dreamer Analogy

    As I specified in the thread I linked to, "nonexistence" has been analyzed in quite a bit of depth by ALL Hindu Darshanas. To talk of logic and philosophical system, etc., requires one to be equipped with the mode of argumentation employed by the different Darshanas. The entry barrier into the Tarka arena is high.

  7. #37

    Re: Maya Dreamer Analogy

    Yes, let's stipulate that I am obviously not sophisticated enough or qualified enough to participate in the tarka debates you alluded to previously, and that you have direct experience of such debates based on retained memories from a previous lifetime centuries ago. Still, I would venture a guess that the unwarranted need to redefine reality and non-reality in Advaita, such that a thing can be classified within it as neither real nor unreal, is fascinating solely to those who start off accepting Advaita as true and correct, and not to those without the pre-existing bias towards that system of thinking.

    regards,
    Philosoraptor

    "Wise men speak because they have something to say. Fools speak because they have to say something." - Plato

  8. #38
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    Re: Maya Dreamer Analogy

    Sure, why not regarding retained memories of past lifetimes?

    Actually, even those are not required...To intelligently debate Hindu Darshanas, one can very well read the works of many modern philosophers and read through articles in like the Journal of Indian Philosophy, Philosophy - East and West, etc. The type of issues debated in papers/books in these journals are modern day versions of Tarka.

    I repeat, to intelligently critique ANY of the Hindu darshanas needs equipping oneself with knowledge in Nyaya/Vaiseshika treatises, Mimamsa treatises, Samkhya treatises and Advaita treatises. There are many modern commentaries on these. Without that, many critiques are not rigourous and are merely superficial.

  9. #39

    Re: Maya Dreamer Analogy

    Quote Originally Posted by wundermonk View Post
    Sure, why not regarding retained memories of past lifetimes?

    Actually, even those are not required...To intelligently debate Hindu Darshanas, one can very well read the works of many modern philosophers and read through articles in like the Journal of Indian Philosophy, Philosophy - East and West, etc. The type of issues debated in papers/books in these journals are modern day versions of Tarka.

    I repeat, to intelligently critique ANY of the Hindu darshanas needs equipping oneself with knowledge in Nyaya/Vaiseshika treatises, Mimamsa treatises, Samkhya treatises and Advaita treatises. There are many modern commentaries on these. Without that, many critiques are not rigourous and are merely superficial.
    Note that knowledge of what shruti actually says is not included in the above, which has sort of been my point all along....
    Philosoraptor

    "Wise men speak because they have something to say. Fools speak because they have to say something." - Plato

  10. #40
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    Re: Maya Dreamer Analogy

    Quote Originally Posted by philosoraptor View Post
    Note that knowledge of what shruti actually says is not included in the above, which has sort of been my point all along....
    Whether you like it or not, 6 Darshanas with irreconcilable differences in aspects of epistemology, soteriology, ontology, nature of divinity and its relationship with the rest of the universe, are acknowledged to be Astika (based on the Vedas).

    Now, there are three options before us:

    (1)Throw one's weight around claiming only 1 subsect of one of the 6 Darshanas are the true purport of the Vedas and all others are false.

    (2)Throw one's weight around claiming one particular subsect of one of the 6 Darshanas is DEFINITELY NOT the true purport of the Vedas. (I am tending to see quite a bit of this option of late on HDF.)

    (3)Be amazed at the fact the same set of scriptures and society gave rise to such diverse yet beautiful and rich philosophy and theology. Be amazed that Indian philosophers thrashed out issues millenia before the rest of the world came to grapple with similar issues - Problem of Induction, nature of consciousness, etc. Try and learn from the various dialectics of our Acharyas about the very nature of philosophical disputation. Every person needs a philosophy to live by and the Astika Darshanas provide some of the most beautiful of such philosophies. Sit back, relax and immerse in such beautiful legacy of expansive knowledge left to us by philosophers who did their best to preserve such knowledge for future generations like us.

    The 3rd is the approach I personally tend to follow. It has made me a more humble person and more willing to consider alternative points of view within the beautiful Astika traditions of Sanatana Dharma.

    My last post on this thread.

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