Theist turning into Agnostic or Atheist (confused)

[rishabhverma]

Namaste,
You should read up on every available literature and search the truth. I have read a lot of atheistic literature, but I didn't find it convincing. Question about cosmic laws. You said you believe in cosmic laws. I ask why? Why is the nature so ordered? What is the reason for that? Why are there no glitches in nature?

[Twilightdance]

I'm also becoming more convinced that as universe works on few cosmic laws - karma, birth, death etc., you don't need a God/Creator to carry out these duties of giving life or taking away.

You have come to the most likely conclusion, so why so much anguish [oh I know why!] ? If you need expert opinion I suggest you continue your studies [instead of watching documentaries] and contemplation, rather than asking in HDF or any forum. Thought carefully there is no basis in theism except generations of wrong learning and beliefs. Atheism is nothing new to Indian systems of thought, and at any rate makes the mind suffer much less.

Take your own case, the ingrained guilt of the theist dogma is creating so much anguish and guilt in you [as evident from your post], which you have labeled as confusion but not much of intellectual confusion seems to be present.

[wundermonk]

Thought carefully there is no basis in theism except generations of wrong learning and beliefs. Atheism is nothing new to Indian systems of thought, and at any rate makes the mind suffer much less.

Any evidence to back up either of the two emphasized sentences above?

[Twilightdance]

Any evidence to back up either of the two emphasized sentences above?

God being the center of creation should be self evident, but he is not. Infact he is nowhere to be found except in the beliefs of a theist and how he sees the world.

But there can be lots of arguments on why there is no God, but we don't need to rehash them unless this was a nasktika debate thread. The OP has just shared a personal dilemma and like everybody else [some of which suggests keeping away from all views except your own!], I am sharing my personal take on the matter.

[wundermonk]

God being the center of creation should be self evident, but he is not. Infact he is nowhere to be found except in the beliefs of a theist and how he sees the world.

But there can be lots of arguments on why there is no God, but we don't need to rehash them unless this was a nasktika debate thread. The OP has just shared a personal dilemma and like everybody else [some of which suggests keeping away from all views except your own!], I am sharing my personal take on the matter.

Dear sm78,

You made strong claims that the theistic belief system is WRONG and that atheism makes mind suffer less. I was looking for evidence that made you reach these conclusions. I note that you have not furnished them yet. These claims are surely not the default positions requiring no burden of proof, yes?

[realdemigod]

Thank you all for your comments,
To answer some of them I already mentioned that there must be some Supreme Intelligence (we may choose to call God/Creator/Goddess) who/which gave birth to the first life form in the form of consciousness and I am a firm believer in Advaita. However I still love Lord Shiva but I believe my faith is dwindling as I stopped worshipping him at home nor visiting temple often. May be deep down in my mind I have accepted that this Supreme Intelligence is one the same as Lord Shiva and my pure love for Him is more important than rituals.

Coming to atheism or new age atheism..I'm sure none of the atheists including Stephen Hawking and Richard Dawkins can answer how the first life form came into this universe (I haven't come across any in neither documentaries or books).

Also there is no worldwide accepted definition of God according to me so we never know where do we fall.. Atheism or Theism.

Thanks again to all those who pointed me to do some further reading on the topics mentioned.

[MahaHrada]

Thank you all for your comments,
To answer some of them I already mentioned that there must be some Supreme Intelligence (we may choose to call God/Creator/Goddess) who/which gave birth to the first life form in the form of consciousness

If there must be a creator who gave birth to the first life form, where did this intelligence come from? Why must there be a creator of the first life form but not a creator of the creator? and so on until infinity. If you have a proble explaining where intelligence came from it is not solved with only one creator.

[wundermonk]

If there must be a creator who gave birth to the first life form, where did this intelligence come from? Why must there be a creator of the first life form but not a creator of the creator? and so on until infinity. If you have a proble explaining where intelligence came from it is not solved with only one creator.

Ya. But this argument only applies against creatio ex nihilo that occurred a finite time in the past.

If time has an infinite past and God/souls/matter are coeval/coeternal as Hinduism believes in, then there is no "first" life form. In an infinite regress of ...seed...tree...seed...tree... there is no "first" seed nor is there a "first" tree.

[MahaHrada]

Ya. But this argument only applies against creatio ex nihilo that occurred a finite time in the past.

If time has an infinite past and God/souls/matter are coeval/coeternal as Hinduism believes in, then there is no "first" life form. In an infinite regress of ...seed...tree...seed...tree... there is no "first" seed nor is there a "first" tree.

Yes, but 1. this is according to puranic accounts only, as far as i know neither the vedas nor the upanishads speak about a cyclical universe, on the contrary there are vedic passages that make more sense when interpreted to speak of a primal creation especially the Nasadiya Sukta. Of course this statement can be countered by the opinion that the puranas are older than the sun and of similar authority than the vedas, but then any academic discussion is useless.
2. The doubt of the o.p. seems to be about the need for god as a creator, to explain the occurence of conciousness. This can not be a God or being that is himself subject to, or a product of the conditions brought about by the stages of a cycle. If God is forced by natural law of the cyclical universe to merge into void and again appear out of it to create the universe anew the o.p�s doubt would remain which is: Where does this universe and subsequently conciousness originate from, if it is not created by a god? Whether this universe is cyclical and eternal or created out of nothing the doubt remains the same: What is the cause of its existence? In the cyclical universe this cause cannot be god because he is himself subject to the very cycle and vanishes in the void , forced into disappearance by the end of the cycle. If not God, what else can be the cause of the existence of the universe? If the answer is that the universe just is and ever was, and there is no cause for its existance, then there is also no need for the idea of a god, then Conciousness the universe and all could also in the same way as this god, simply exist without a cause, in the same way, eternally uncaused, just like this creator god, who also has no apparent prior cause in the cylical model, but if he is able to create the universe he must be even more sophisticated and complicated than that what he creates, so it is even harder to belive a god should just be there, eternally without any cause and exist forever without any end. That would mean God himself would not know what gave rise to his existance but would be cursed to exist eternally in both directions of time facing an eternal future as well as an eternal memory of the past and all the time unable to find out either the cause nor the aim or reason of his existance since it never ends. This does not sound like fun. The existence of a creator god without a cause is therefore not more plausible than a universe without a cause rather the opposite because we know that the universe exists but we only assume a creator.

[wundermonk]

Brahmasutras, when dealing with the Problem of Partiality/Cruelty:

The scriptures also posit the existence of the universe in former cycles or Kalpas in texts like, "The creator fashioned the sun and the moon as before" (Rig Veda Samhita, X-190-3). Hence partiality and cruelty cannot be ascribed to the Lord.

The above is common in commentaries of Shankara, Ramanuja, Madhva et al.

So, there really is no "first" creation. Intelligence/matter always were.