ISKCON groups

[IcyCosmic]

Yesterday I met with a HK devotee belonging to ISKCON, and even though well versed in Sanatana dharma I felt an heir of false within him. He was intent on telling me that Shiva is not the supreme, only Krishna. That no scripture mentions Shiva as a supreme lord and I am foolish for regarding him in that manner or manifestation. Of course he said he respects Shiva, but he said I clearly haven't read the Gita properly. I explained about translations and my opinions but he did not stop. Then he said, it is okay - you worship Shiva. I will worship, Krishna. This discussing is leading nowehere because you will not understand, Siva is also a topmost personality. I was like....>.>

I think it is quite silly that such futile hatred exists between us hindus.

[Omkara]

An earlier,now defunct hindu forum wss almost ruined by fanatical iskconites continuously creating threads calling Lord Shiva a tamasic deity and a demigod and going off into abusive rants against Shiva worshippers.It is a good thing Satay keeps the trolls out here.

http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showthread.php?t=10407

This is valuable information for a Shiva devotee to have while dealing with such people.

[Equinox]

Vannakkam Icy


This happened to my mother some years back. The woman she talked to, an ISKCON member, insisted that Shiva and all other gods are demigods and that only Krishna is the supreme Lord. My mother, of course, was rather confused and didn't know what to say.

Since that incident, she found out what their aim really is. These days we try our best to avoid any 'seemingly' ISKCON member. But then, there are members even among our family friends, but luckily we don't talk to them about religion at all. phew...

This group has a booth at the annual Indian Fair held here every year, and I tried my best to avoid them this year. Last year, I stopped at their booth to check out their books, and after buying Swami Prabhupada's version of the Bhagavad Gita and some other books, they invited me to come to their centre. I haven't visited them.

My dad sort of asked them what changes ISKCON brought to their lives, and all of them at the booth were most enthusiastic in their explanations and exclamations about their changed lives. And they change their names too. LOL

I've never understood how and why they authoritatively impose their newfound beliefs upon others. Gets me annoyed.



Aum Namah Shivaya

[Eastern Mind]

I think it is quite silly that such futile hatred exists between us hindus.

Vannakkam: Does it? This is one small group, perhaps gaining ground, perhaps not. The 'hatred' goes in one direction mostly. They, like any proseltysing faith, don't see it as hatred, but as love and duty. From my POV, its "Let them do their thing, and I'll do mine." But that conclusion came after a couple of life lessons such as you had yesterday. So it is with some converts; they can't leave the idea of proseltysing behind. But understand it for what it is: immature people (or souls) with egos that won't let "I'm right and you're wrong." go. Once you know what to expect, then its easier. Would you let a six year old kid drive your car? No. So you say, "We'll talk when you grow up." and you do that in a kind respectful way.

Best wishes in avoiding any further conflict.

Aum Namasivaya

[Jodhaa]

Namaste,

I have only met two members of ISKCON and only very briefly. They seemed nice enough. They came to the temple for Janmastami this year and sang several bhajans and were overall quite an enthusiastic group. That being said, I only said a few words to them so if they were planning on having a "Come to Krishna" meeting with me they didn't get the chance.

However, I have read a bit about them and I'm not sure how I feel. I hate to make judgments based on a few articles, but if they are a proselytizing group that turns me off right away.

Peace.

[shiv.somashekhar]

They are very energetic about two things -

1. Arguing for the superiority of Krishna over Shiva
2. Criticizing Advaita (they call it Mayavada)

I would not be surprised if they are coached within their organization on arguments to use, etc. They will say they have the highest respect for Shankara, but his words are not true! I do not see how that works, but so long as they are convinced, it should be fine.

Another peculiarity is they are fine with considering Allah, Jehovah and other non-Hindu Gods the same as Krishna. They only have a problem with Shiva.

[ShivaFan]

Namaste IcySupreme and Eastern Mind

Quote “I think it is quite silly that such futile hatred exists between us hindus” …

Of course, I agree, I do NOT like such futile antagonism between all of my fellow Hindus, and at least anyone who knows me (or has “read my file” – of which my Hindu adventures might be embarrassing at time and certainly wouldn’t get me elected to any higher office of the government unless perhaps I ran under the BJP banner in India, but even then …), they know I pretty much go to many temples, and love all the Devas and Devi very, very much. Yes, I am a Saiva, so it would be expected that I should probably jump on a band wagon of finger pointing at ISKCON and the devotees of Krishna, but … anyone who also knows me, which gets even other Saiva devotees mad at me, is that I am also a “Hindu” (in the sense of modern Hinduism and not grounded as much in Vedic Dharma) who see all of us, no matter which Sampradaya, living and loving and exploring and discovering and even having fun in company of each other, and even finding liberation as part of the company together and as a family, that there is so much that interweaves us together be it Saiva, Shakta, Vaishnav, or Gaudiya, or ISKCON and so on.

It is strange how yes, sometimes we go down these tangents of, instead of simply focusing on the object of one’s path and devotion, instead want to focus on a negative message about someone else’s object or path or devotion – and such perhaps was too much of the focus of this ISKCON devotee Icy had met who might have been too much engaged in putting down Shiva instead of simply talking about Krishna. Certainly, focusing on put-downs is a sign of immaturity as Eastern Mind points out.

However, I do suspect perhaps, and I could be wrong and I suspect I am wrong but it does happen sometimes, that Icy might have introduced Shiva into the conversation as being Supreme (and as a Saiva, to me, of course! - my Lord Mahadeva is Supreme) - which then triggered this tangent from the Krishna devotee who might have had no intention of going there. Though this might not have been the case at all since I wasn’t there, and yes I know there is no question about the proselytizing nature of so many of the ISKCON devotees.

But at the same moment, since I am a very bad Saiva as far as my reputation for being too much of a “friendly” with every other Hindu (sometimes I am called by the nickname “rasgulla” as in rascal but also meaning there is the sweet part of it), and have been around with a lot of different Hindu devotees of which all of their company I enjoy a lot (but only to a point – there is a “line” to everything I suppose, which I will example in a moment!), I have run into all sorts but it is only very rare that I let anything distract me from Bhakti or devotion, and in general I also consider the important role of Guru in the overall experience and path we call “Hinduism” or Sanatana Dharma, and while I do not agree with every Guru, I do respect those devotees who value the role of their Guru, the purpose of a Guru, and see Guru as “Guru Brahma, Guru Vishnu, Guru Maheshwara” if you will.

Guru Brahma Gurur Vishnu
Guru Devo Maheshwaraha
Guru Saakshat Para Brahma
Tasmai Sree Gurave Namaha

“Guru is verily the representative of Brahma, Vishnu and Shiva. He (and let me add this note from ShivaFan “or she”) sustains knowledge and destroys the wildflowers of ignorance. I salute such a Guru.”

Ok, I guess the better translation is “weeds” of ignorance instead of “wildflowers” of ignorance, but as a bad Saiva I tend to start grabbing at those pretty wildflowers be they Saiva, Shakta, Vaishnav, Suryaian, ISKCON and so on, and that is probably why I am not very interested right now in the “Supreme Brahman” per say.

But I note the Guru question, because sometimes what some devotee of some other Hindu path says or does, which perhaps rubs the wrong way with another devotee or aspirant or yogi of a different Hindu path, sometimes it might not be due to immaturity. But due to conviction to the instructions of his or her Guru.

There is a lot of truth in what Eastern Mind said about immaturity, and believe me I have run into some immature people, but I have also noticed sometimes the reason a devotee of a Path or Marga is “unbending” if you will, or may give an impression (sometimes unintentionally, though I do not deny it is sometimes intentional) that may look like a wall stands between each other, is only due to the fact of the seriousness that devotee takes to his or her commitment to their Guru and the teachings and path and experience of that Guru. For them, Guru is Krishna, or for another Guru is Shiva and so on.

And so, if the Guru teaches that Krishna is the Supreme, and the soul who is seeking has made an achievement in that marga and lives within and through that Sampradaya and that Guru, well – they are probably taking the teachings of that Guru 100% to heart. So, if another doesn’t think this the best definition of “Supreme”, that has more to do with not finding the marga of that Guru as the way your soul or how to live within the family of Hinduism and find a way to the Supreme, which to me is Shiva.

But when sometimes this sort of jalpa happens, and I see that devotion to their Guru in the other soul, I respect that 100%, I in fact admire them so much. So I let them talk about Krishna. And I love Krishna so much, I enjoy hearing about Krishna. Of course, if they go the way of purposely insulting my Lord Shiva as a matter of point, then I think they are perhaps not so devoted to Krishna since they want to focus only on negatives about Shiva for example. So what kind of Krishna devotee is that, then?

So, obviously, I do not think Prabhupad is the type of Guru for IcySupreme perhaps. Seems Icy is a Shaiva. Which is wonderful. But I hope Icy or myself, or any other Saiva, does not make the same mistake, and focus on negative comments about Lord Krishna. Because firstly, Shiva isn’t going to like that at all. Nor should Icy see this devotee in isolation, though it could be this particular devotee was a very bad example, but rather see the Guru behind that devotee. I never engage in “Guru bashing”. But you will be found by, as you try to find, who is the One for you. So do not hate that other Guru. Continue on, and grow like one more wildflower initially in the garden of Hinduism, but one day aspire to be a Banyan Tree. I love all Hindus, even the ones who tell me I am an “untouchable”. I have been offended very much by such things, but I am a Hindu today, a Hindu tomorrow, maybe one day I will be a Banyan Tree in that garden of Hinduism. What I am interested in those who may differ is, do they love and respect the role of Guru? Do they love and understand, and grow into the way of what is their object of devotion and path within the family of Hinduism?

So sometimes, the devotee isn’t actually “immature”. But mature. They are honoring their commitments and strong in soul with their Guru, and this is Hinduism. If they focus on the object, the path, I admire that. If they only focus on negative vibrations about some other object, path, light, truth, well – that is not mature, it is immature.

Some say ISKCON is “Vaishnava” – others “Gaudiya” and so on. Or that it is unique, e.g. “Krishnite” (how about “Krishnaya”?). Whatever the case, I have noticed that none of them ever called me an “untouchable”. Also, I notice most Saiva’s are so nice to me, including of course Saiva Siddhantas, and it is not at all very common any of them call me an “untouchable”.

For some reason, I have noticed that when this happens, it is almost always Vaishnavas who call me “untouchable” if and when that sort of thing happens. And they are really focused on that, instead of Vishnu in some cases. I do not know if that means they are immature or not, but I will remain a Saiva.

But I will and want to go to the Vaishnava temples to see Vishnu! I want to go! Jai Vishnu Deva!

And Jai, Jaya Sri Devi Maa!

As far as proselytization, actually while I agree that Hinduism is not nor should be a proselytizing form of Seva, I do not think that such tendency is unique to ISKCON at all. And even among ISKCON, while we see them perhaps at an airport trying to sell a book and trying to invite others to Krishna’s “feast” at the temple, I cannot recall ISKCON members going door to door proselytizing as we see for example some Christian denominations.

So while I do not deny we see a level of proselytization from ISKCON, this might be a little overblown if you will in regards to designating them in the same “shoe” as such Christian denominations which go door to door. I mean, you could argue that having the Jagannath Rath Yatra in public by ISKCON is proselytization, but I love the festival, and it is a part of Hinduism from Puri in India and other holy Tirthas. Selling books in airports probably is proselytizing, but I do not see a lot of that these days, and you might consider in the very early days of ISKCON in the West sometimes it was simply a matter of survival for those living in those small temples – I mean there still is a need for money to buy vegies for food, they weren’t going to starve to death if you will. So …

I say proselytization is not unique to ISKCON, I have experienced it from other Hindus. I will give the example of those whose object of focus is the “Supreme Brahman”.

I have been told almost the exact words from some of these admirable Hindus about Shiva as what Icy heard from the Krishna devotee. The devotee of the Supreme Brahman, which in this example occurred in India and not the West, was also well versed in Sanatana Dharma. He was telling me also that Shiva was not Supreme, that Siva is only a minor deity, that all are minor, and that the Supreme is only Brahman. I was also told, all the scriptures say Brahman is Supreme, not Shiva, and that I am a fool in regarding “Gods” such as Shiva as a manifestation of the Supreme. Actually, I didn’t argue with him, but simply mentioning Shiva set him off, and this very good Hindu then cut the conversion off with something like “You worship Siva, but I will worship Brahman”.

So?

And by the way, he wasn’t alone. Their India based group with Indian devotees of the Supreme Brahman, were selling books about the Supreme Brahman in public. So they were “proselytizing” if you will.
I like these Hindus very much who worship the Supreme Brahman. We are all connected together, oddly, through Hinduism, one way or another.

Before I sign out and have (probably deservingly so) some fellow Saiva's get mad at me and give me the one-two, let me say one last thing about ISKCON devotees and their temples.

I love ISKCON temples, and the Krishna devotees. And, I cannot recall even once ever visiting an Radha - Krishna temple (of ISKCON) either in the US, other countries, nor in India, where when I approached and entered the temple a devotee of Krishna came up and says to me:

"Welcome! We hate Shiva!"

It just never happened that way. They talk about Krishna, and Radha, and Caintanya, and so on. Of course, if someone representing the temple came up and said, "Welcome! Shiva devotees are not allowed! We hate Shiva, in fact we hate Shiva so much we only have time to talk about that and not Krishna ... also you are untouchable Shiva devotee, we hate you and Shiva!"

... well, I guess I would turn around and leave. Because I was also given another instruction for this life, at this time. For some reason that is my instruction, and it is probably due to what was something seen in me, and that instruction is:

"Do not disturb others."

So that is what I will try to do, or not to do if you will, even though I am a "bad Saiva" and a rasgulla.

Sorry about the "wildflowers" part, and the 11 tear drops of ranting! I know if anyone actually managed to read this entire rant, then I pray that Mother Lakshmi give you all the blessing of Lakshmi within the next 3 days if She is listening to my prayer!

Today I think of Lord Mahadeva. He is the Lord of All Things.

Om Namah Sivaya

[Equinox]

Vannakkam everyone


On a side note, I wouldn't say that this organisation is bad at all. They are quite an asset to Hinduism as well, provided they themselves accept other forms of Hinduism.

On the contrary, they sometimes claim that they are not a Hindu organisation.

They have an amazing bhajan group that performs at houses on certain occasions. Like in the days of mourning after a funeral, I've seen them perform on certain days up to the 31st, and it was wonderful.


Aum Namah Shivaya

[ShivaFan]

Namaste

Equinox mentioned about house bhajans by ISKCON. I remember once probaby it was the year 1977 perhaps, I lived in an apartment and I cannot remember the circumstances why but I had a house bhajan in this apartment. It was held by ISKCON devotees, who of course then started to clang the kartals, cymbals very, very loud in the apartment. The neighbor starts to bang on the wall. Bang, bang, bang! The devotees keep clanging... bang, now from two sides of the apartment, bang, bang ... Next a redneck type neighbor is banging on the door.
The devotees then get up open the door, and they go right out in front of the apartment, hugging the redneck, and it goes on and then the redneck likes it but another neighbor is shouting Shut It Up!
The redneck laughs and goes back to his alartment, then comes back and tries to offer a beer to one of the devotees who just smiles and says Hare Krishna, the guy goes back to his alartment, the devotees come back into my apartment and read some Gita, then leave.
The police neved came.
The next day the apartment manager said I have to keep "the party down" from now on.

Ha ha!


Here is a link that sort of shpws what ISKCON says about Shiva. I don't agree, but it does reveal some things regarding this ..
http://news.iskcon.com/node/930

Om Namah Sivaya

[philosoraptor]

Yesterday I met with a HK devotee belonging to ISKCON, and even though well versed in Sanatana dharma I felt an heir of false within him. He was intent on telling me that Shiva is not the supreme, only Krishna. That no scripture mentions Shiva as a supreme lord and I am foolish for regarding him in that manner or manifestation. Of course he said he respects Shiva, but he said I clearly haven't read the Gita properly. I explained about translations and my opinions but he did not stop. Then he said, it is okay - you worship Shiva. I will worship, Krishna. This discussing is leading nowehere because you will not understand, Siva is also a topmost personality. I was like....>.>

I think it is quite silly that such futile hatred exists between us hindus.

Icy,

The belief in a single supreme deity is a feature of all Vedaantic traditions, and the most influential schools of Vedaanta to date have mostly held to the view that nArAyaNa is the Supreme Deity and shiva (umApati) is the devotee. This is not a view specific to ISKCON, nor is it a view based on "hatred."

That being said, I've often had the problem with ISKCON devotees that they often know their conclusions better than they know the arguments and logic upon which they are based. Sort of like putting the cart before the horse, so to speak. I've later come to realize that most sects have such people, and even quite a few people do this even here on this forum. It's just that, when their conclusions are more palatable ("you can worship any god you want,") they often get a pass on their reasoning.