Page 1 of 6 12345 ... LastLast
Results 1 to 10 of 53

Thread: Murti Puja is not idol worship

  1. #1

    Murti Puja is not idol worship

    Generally those who live in western countries or among people of semitic faith must face questions and/or abuses about Deity Worship. It is sad that even some Hindus use the word "Idol worship" for "Vigraha archanas" we do in temples.

    1. The first point is Hindus have to recognoze that the words "Idol worship" has a derogatory meaning and hence should stop using such words at all.

    2. The second point is most Hindus have no idea "what is 'Muti Puja' ?" and often have a misconception that the material with which the Murti itself is worshipped.

    3. The third point is Hindus themselves have a diverse philosophies where some believe Brahman does not have form and others that Brahman does have form.

    4. Some have the idea that Murti is merely a symbol to concentrate.

    I will try to present the idea as far as I know. If anybody has more knowledge, they can present.

    I started a new thread on this subject, because instead of presenting our own ideas on this subject, it is better to see what the scriptures themselves say.

    I request anybody who has read regarding Murti Puja as per Pancaratra and Vaikhanasa Agamas can present about philosophy of Murti Puja better.

    As per Vaishnava traditions, Narayana(Brahman) has infinite forms. Purusa Sukta(in Rig veda, Taiitiriya Brahmana etc.) makes it clear that Narayana is Brahman and that Narayana has infinite forms. Also Purusa Sukta makes it clear that Narayana is beyond(transcendental to) all the created Universe.

    Hence point no. 3, that Brahman does not have any FORMS can be rejected safely. Also point 2 is just due to worshipper's ignorance and can be rejected as per Purusa Sukta.

    I do not think that Murti's are mere symbols. There is an elaborate procedure from carving the image to installing the Deities as per silpa shastras. There are elaborate ceremonies done like Prana Pratishthana, opening the eyes of Deity etc. where different Devatas and Lord Narayana is requested to manifest their persence in the Deity. It is clear from these rituals that Narayana is accepts all the services done to the Deity, just like any Vedic ceremonies(Yagyas) performed.

    Hence point 4 is not at all right. Murti is not merely a symbol. Lord Narayana is personally accepting services from devotees and priests to grant Moksha to HIS devotees. A mere symbol cannot do this. It is the residing place of Lord.

    To call Murti's as mere symbol is an insult to Lord. In addition it is equally egregious error to think that the material of Murti is itself Lord.

    The following link provides some information on Vaikhanasa Agama. If anybody has more information on Agamas and their philosophy please provide it with quotes from scriptures. I could not find any material from net or otherwise regarding Pancaratra or Vaikhanasa agamas.

    http://www.ibiblio.org/sripedia/cgi-...ase/Vaikhanasa

  2. #2
    Join Date
    March 2006
    Location
    Sahasrarkadyutirmatha
    Posts
    1,802
    Rep Power
    191

    Post

    Namaste,

    If the “Idol” is taken as a whole, with all its particularities, then that bright image is only a guide for meditation on that which is unimaginable without any distinguishing marks. And that view of the Murti is Akala (which should not be worshipped).

    If the true “Idol” is taken to be only that undivided dark point of the “Pupil of the Eye”, then that dark ocean is Kala, which is the aim of all Hindu Murti Puja.

    The most important aspect of Hindu worship is Darshana (Sight), which essentially involves a direct (eye to eye) communication between Jivatman and Paramatman.

  3. #3
    We again have a divyachari virachari clash here.
    This morning while reading a treatise on tantras, the author wanted to convey that dhyana that generally describes a murti (idol) is more important. dhayna was later written to give a better idea of the murti, so that the sadhak can visualize the murti while reciting the dhyana.

    This is similar to buddhist idea, where deities have reduced position than hinduism. But Hinduism dhyanas are much more profound than the murti it conveys. Each letter and each word of dhayana sometimes contains a multitude of experienced knowledge expressed in a symbolic language. The visual diety is the visual form imagined to convey a much exalted state of a cosmic conciousness. I adhere to this view. This is more tuned to path of knowledge. Ofcourse visualizations or murti dhayan are great meditative exercise - but it is the begining (followed by Jyoti, Bindu and culminating in Brahma dhyana or samadhi). The written dhyana often contains much more subtle phylosophical information for the thinking mind.

  4. #4
    Join Date
    March 2006
    Location
    Italy
    Age
    36
    Posts
    651
    Rep Power
    231

    Re: Murti Puja is not idol worship

    Quote Originally Posted by rkannan1
    Generally those who live in western countries or among people of semitic faith must face questions and/or abuses about Deity Worship. It is sad that even some Hindus use the word "Idol worship" for "Vigraha archanas" we do in temples.

    1. The first point is Hindus have to recognoze that the words "Idol worship" has a derogatory meaning and hence should stop using such words at all.

    2. The second point is most Hindus have no idea "what is 'Muti Puja' ?" and often have a misconception that the material with which the Murti itself is worshipped.

    3. The third point is Hindus themselves have a diverse philosophies where some believe Brahman does not have form and others that Brahman does have form.

    4. Some have the idea that Murti is merely a symbol to concentrate.

    I will try to present the idea as far as I know. If anybody has more knowledge, they can present.

    I started a new thread on this subject, because instead of presenting our own ideas on this subject, it is better to see what the scriptures themselves say.

    I request anybody who has read regarding Murti Puja as per Pancaratra and Vaikhanasa Agamas can present about philosophy of Murti Puja better.

    As per Vaishnava traditions, Narayana(Brahman) has infinite forms. Purusa Sukta(in Rig veda, Taiitiriya Brahmana etc.) makes it clear that Narayana is Brahman and that Narayana has infinite forms. Also Purusa Sukta makes it clear that Narayana is beyond(transcendental to) all the created Universe.

    Hence point no. 3, that Brahman does not have any FORMS can be rejected safely. Also point 2 is just due to worshipper's ignorance and can be rejected as per Purusa Sukta.

    I do not think that Murti's are mere symbols. There is an elaborate procedure from carving the image to installing the Deities as per silpa shastras. There are elaborate ceremonies done like Prana Pratishthana, opening the eyes of Deity etc. where different Devatas and Lord Narayana is requested to manifest their persence in the Deity. It is clear from these rituals that Narayana is accepts all the services done to the Deity, just like any Vedic ceremonies(Yagyas) performed.

    Hence point 4 is not at all right. Murti is not merely a symbol. Lord Narayana is personally accepting services from devotees and priests to grant Moksha to HIS devotees. A mere symbol cannot do this. It is the residing place of Lord.

    To call Murti's as mere symbol is an insult to Lord. In addition it is equally egregious error to think that the material of Murti is itself Lord.

    The following link provides some information on Vaikhanasa Agama. If anybody has more information on Agamas and their philosophy please provide it with quotes from scriptures. I could not find any material from net or otherwise regarding Pancaratra or Vaikhanasa agamas.

    http://www.ibiblio.org/sripedia/cgi-...ase/Vaikhanasa
    Namaste Shri kannan1.
    According to Sri Vaishnavism the,the Supreme Lord Bhagavan Sriman Narayana has five forms.
    These five forms are called:
    1. Para
    2. Vyuha
    3. Vibhava
    4. Antaryami
    5. Archa

    The Para form is that of Lord Vishnu in Vaikunta,the spiritual world where He lives along with Lakshmi, Bhudevi and Niladevi.There, He is also called Para Vasudeva.

    I suppose that almost everyone already know the Para form of Lord Vishnu.


    Archa avatara,the fifth form of Lord Vishnu, is that where the Lord is worshipped in the temples.
    This means that a murti is the Archa form of Sriman Narayana.
    The following murti belongs to Ranganatha temple.


    By http://www.srivaishnavan.com/faq_iswara.html
    79.Is there any difference between these five forms of the Lord, which you have explained. (Para, Vyuha,etc.)?

    By http://www.srivaishnavan.com/ans_iswara.html#79
    79.There is absolutely no difference. The Lord is fully present in all these five forms; and everyone can worship the Lord, in whichever form he likes, and in whichever temple he likes.

    This means that a murti of Lord Vishnu is Lord Vishnu Him-self.

    By http://www.srivaishnavan.com/faq_matter.html
    37.What is suddha sattva?
    38.Where is Suddha Sattva?


    By http://www.srivaishnavan.com/ans_matter.html#37
    37.Suddha sattva, as the name indicates, is pure sattva, without any mixture or trace of the other two qualities, namely, rajas and tamas.
    38.Sri Vaikunta or Paramapada is fully suddha, sattva. In this world also, the archa forms of Sriman Narayana and Lakshmi in the temples are suddha sattva.


    I think that this means that the material of Murti is itself Lord Vishnu.
    I don't know if even the murti in the house's altar are considered Archa avatara form of the Lord.

    I request someone to explain me this.
    Regards,
    Orlando.

  5. #5
    Join Date
    March 2006
    Location
    Govinda Lokam
    Age
    45
    Posts
    738
    Rep Power
    356

    Re: Murti Puja is not idol worship

    Para Vasudeva - inaccessible from Earth, even for the greatest Yogis and even devas.
    Vyuha Vasudeva - again virtually inaccessible except the greatest saints and devas
    Vibhava Vasudeva - available only in certain places and times.
    Antaryami Vasudeva - available only for Yogis.
    Archa - until you have the qualification for one of the above, what else is the way?

    A piece of stone or idol without any formal installation is a mere piece of stone. When it is installed in a prescribed vedic way, it gets chaitanya and becomes an Archa avatara. Certain idols like Saligramam are considered to be Archa Avatar without any such rituals.

    The power (chaitanya) of an idol is based on many factors:

    1. The person or the saint who installed the diety.
    2. The daily puja offered to the murti.
    3. The faith of the devotee.
    4. The place of the diety, which is more in centres of pilgrimage charged with the spiritual vibrations of the devotees.

    Shuddha Sattva is symbolically represented by gold, and is of the nature of pure bliss.
    Guard your Dharma, Burn the Myth, Promote the Truth, Crush the superstition.

  6. #6
    Join Date
    March 2006
    Location
    Italy
    Age
    36
    Posts
    651
    Rep Power
    231

    Re: Murti Puja is not idol worship

    Namaste Shri Sudarshan Maharaja.
    First I request you to not use the word "idol".Please use thr word murti.
    My previous questions was:even the murtis in the house'altars are considered Archa form of the Lord?Or does this apply only temples's murtis?
    Regards,
    Orlando.

  7. #7
    Join Date
    March 2006
    Location
    Govinda Lokam
    Age
    45
    Posts
    738
    Rep Power
    356

    Re: Murti Puja is not idol worship

    Quote Originally Posted by Bhakta of God
    Namaste Shri Sudarshan Maharaja.
    First I request you to not use the word "idol".Please use thr word murti.
    My previous questions was:even the murtis in the house'altars are considered Archa form of the Lord?Or does this apply only temples's murtis?
    Regards,
    Orlando.
    Both are considered Archa as long as installation is done properly and regular puja is done. I am not concerned with the term "idol". If you think murti and idol are one and the same, then it should not matter. It is like getting upset when Bhagavan is called God! So what is your equivalent term for murti or vigraham in English?
    Guard your Dharma, Burn the Myth, Promote the Truth, Crush the superstition.

  8. #8
    Join Date
    March 2006
    Location
    Italy
    Age
    36
    Posts
    651
    Rep Power
    231

    Re: Murti Puja is not idol worship

    Quote Originally Posted by Sudarshan
    Vibhava Vasudeva - available only in certain places and times.
    I recite Rama many times every day.Rama-Nama is my main spiritual practice.
    Someone told me that after I will have done Rama-nama 960 millions times I will become siddha in Rama-NAma and I will have the darshan (vision) of Lord Ramachandra.


    Regards,
    Orlando.

  9. #9
    Join Date
    March 2006
    Location
    Govinda Lokam
    Age
    45
    Posts
    738
    Rep Power
    356

    Re: Murti Puja is not idol worship

    Quote Originally Posted by Bhakta of God
    I recite Rama many times every day.Rama-Nama is my main spiritual practice.
    Someone told me that after I will have done Rama-nama 960 millions times I will become siddha in Rama-NAma and I will have the darshan (vision) of Lord Ramachandra.
    Saint Tyagaraja is said to have seen Lord Rama by reciting the name continuosly with devotion for several years, and towards the final stages he had gone beyond daily life and even sleep. I think it is beleived that he did that so many times ( several crores). Seeing Rama must not be taken in a literal sense of course, it is more than that - and is not really related to vision with the eye. It is like Arjuna's vision of Krishna.

    960 millions - At 2 per second, you could do 86,400 for 12 hours/day. That means approx 10,000 days of continued practice, or roughly 25 years. No ordinary person can do this. Looks like a worthy goal in life amdist all these materialsm.
    Guard your Dharma, Burn the Myth, Promote the Truth, Crush the superstition.

  10. #10
    Join Date
    April 2006
    Location
    NY State
    Age
    66
    Posts
    552
    Rep Power
    99

    Re: Murti Puja is not idol worship

    (I hope y'all dont consider this off topic, please forgive if you deem it so.)

    I know little of idol worshipping, just what I read and see pictures and whatnot and the conclusions I've formed as a result.

    But, the decoration, dressing up, the ritual of participation (puja) .. these things remind me of playing dolls as a little girl. In the dressing up and enacting with the doll, to an extent, I identified with the doll (Barbie, in my case, hehe) .. I *became* the doll in a way, in my mind. I can't help but thinking there is a process evident here, which sort of goes without saying.

    I adore that there are more than 300 million gods in Hinduism I think it's just great that so many aspects have been identified and given form through worship. Pretty much, for any contingency, there's an appropriate godform to appeal to/merge with/focus on. That's so cool.

    And, even better, is the Godz, the multiplicity which are unity ... only defined by one's particular point of view.

    Thanks for indulging my random thoughts.



    Namaste,
    ZN



    ____________
    Just a girl

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •