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Thread: Murti Puja is not idol worship

  1. #21
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    Light Re: 33 crore Devas

    deva means “heavenly or divine”, and it is also applied to terrestrial things of high excellence.

    deva indicates a Deity or God.

    The plural devAs refers to the Gods, as “the heavenly or shining ones”, and particularly the 33 Vishvadevas.


    ये देवासो दिव्येकादश स्थ पृथिव्यामध्येकादश स्थ ।
    अप्सुक्षितो महिनैकादश स्थ ते देवासो यज्ञमिमं जुषध्वम् ॥



    ye devāso divyekādaśa stha pṛthivyāmadhyekādaśa stha |
    apsukṣito mahinaikādaśa stha te devāso yajñamimaṁ juṣadhvam ||

    [RV I: 139.11]



    O ye Eleven Gods whose home is heaven,
    O ye Eleven who make earth your dwelling,
    Ye who with might, Eleven, live in waters,
    Accept this sacrifice, O Gods, with pleasure.


    Eleven Rudras penetrating all the Three Worlds gives us 33 Devas in all!

    The Rigveda’s 33 categories of shining Aditya, as expressed in the Hindu population of the newly independent Republic of India, was swollen to 33 crore of liberated Jivas in 1947.

  2. #22
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    Re: 33 crore Devas

    Quote Originally Posted by sarabhanga


    Eleven Rudras penetrating all the Three Worlds gives us 33 Devas in all!

    The Rigveda’s 33 categories of shining Aditya, as expressed in the Hindu population of the newly independent Republic of India, was swollen to 33 crore of liberated Jivas in 1947.
    Namaste!
    I have read about the number 33 for devas. I am curious to know who started this '33 crore liberated jivas in 1947 and thus 330 million gods in hinduism propaganda. Is this indian hindus that started this? Just curious.

    Anyway, '330 million liberated jivas' doesn't make any sense. First of all, British didn't control our 'jiva' and jivas were always in maya and are still in maya. British independence has nothing to do with libearation of jivas. Secondly, it is hard to swallow this 'pil' of 330 million gods as one only need to look at the past 59 years of India and see what thse 330 million gods have done to Bharat in general and sanatana dharma in particular!

    300 million gods, I think not!
    satay

  3. #23
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    Post Re: 33 crore Devas

    33 koṭi (Hindi: korī, kora, karoṛa, or kroṛa) indicates 33 points, horns, eminences, or splinters ~ 11 rays penetrating 3 worlds, giving 33 korī (divisions or classes) of Devas from the one Vishvadeva.

    In addition, Sanskrit koṭi and Hindi korī are both used to indicate an immeasurably large number, and particularly the figure of 10 million.

    It is clear that the idea actually arises directly from Sanskrit, and the connexion with political liberation in 1947 is fortuitous.

  4. #24
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    Re: 33 crore Devas

    Quote Originally Posted by sarabhanga
    It is true! And with Independence in 1947, every formerly bonded Jiva was revealed as a self-luminous Deva.
    Guard your Dharma, Burn the Myth, Promote the Truth, Crush the superstition.

  5. #25
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    Re: Murti Puja is not idol worship

    Namaste,
    I have seen many abrahamics denouncing hinduism as mere Idol worship and misleading one and all by making the faith just another version of the ancient egyptian faith and Ramon and Greek faiths . By equating hinduism with the now nonexisting above faiths they are tryingto lure the hindus away from their religion. In fact contemporary Iranians makea mockery of hindus by characterizing them as ‘gaab parasthaar’, literally meaning 'cow worshippers'. Iranians call their own ancestors, the zathurashrians or Zorastrians (Parsis), as ‘aathish parastaars’ or fire worshippers. It is shocking that Iranians summarily hate their own ancestors and sadly provide no serious reason for such visceral hatred. The ‘’hatred generates out of their Friday prayer sermons’’, one Iranian friend explained to me a few years ago. Some excellent points were raised enlightening how hinduism’s murthy worship is incomparable to the above mentioned faiths and some other pagan faiths that were predominant in Europe in the past. The below excerpt from Huston Smiths book is yet another articulate explanation elaborating the essence of the murthy worship. I felt like sharing it with you all:

    Idol worship: The concept of idol worship in Hinduism is explained by a Chinese scholar – Huston Smith. He writes:


    Enter Hinduism’s myths, her magnificent symbols, her several hundred images of God,
    her rituals that keep turning night and day like never-ending prayer wheels.
    It is obtuse to confuse Hinduism’s images with idolatry, and their multiplicity with polytheism.
    They are ‘runways’ from which the sense-laden human spirit can rise for its “flight of the alone to the Alone”.
    Even village priest will frequently open their temple ceremonies with the following beloved invocation:
    O Lord, forgive three sins that aredue to my human limitations:
    Thou art everywhere, but I worship you here;
    Thou art without form, but I worship you in these forms;
    Thou needest no praise, yet I offer you these prayers and salutations,
    Lord, forgive three sins that are due to my human limitations.

    - World’s religion by Huston Smith.





















    Last edited by charitra; 07 May 2013 at 02:39 PM.

  6. #26

    Re: Murti Puja is not idol worship

    "Idol-worship," if you look at the dictionary definition and historical usage, refers to the deliberate worship of "craven" (i.e. false or manufactured) images. In the Judeo-Christian context, the recently-freed Hebrews committed a sin by making up a god in the form of a golden calf and worshiping it as a god.

    Although many Indian Hindus use the term "idol" innocently, technically it is not correct to use the term "idol worship" to describe archa-murthi worship because the archa-murthi is not regarded by traditional Hindus as a false image, but rather an image sculpted in the likeness of the deity as described in the scriptures.

    Note that this again applies to traditional Hinduism. In Neo-Hinduism, archa-murthies are indeed regarded as manufactured images given to us by great sages to focus our meditation. When one supposedly realizes that the deity is beyond all name and form, then he can dispense with the "idol" and just worship the formless, nameless, attributeless deity directly. So, to the Neo, the murthy is indeed a false image which serves as a means to an end.
    Philosoraptor

    "Wise men speak because they have something to say. Fools speak because they have to say something." - Plato

  7. #27
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    Re: Murti Puja is not idol worship

    Aum Swastiyastu

    The date of the previous posts in this thread has surprised me. Holy necrobump! Seven years in the making!

    I was going to ignore this thread because of it, but there's not much else I can talk about on here right now.

    Skimming the posts in this thread, I can only re-iterate what has been aforementioned, but in my own way.

    Murti Puja is not 'idol worship' because we put our own faith and feelings into the whole concept behind the Deities whenever we pray. It is the focal point for our conscious awareness...like a clay/metal 'transmitter' to the Divine One.

    My teenage daughter cannot understand how anything can survive once decapitated and having an animal head placed on the shoulders (Lord Ganesha, Daksha Maharaj etc).

    I am still rather hesitant about all that myself and rarely pay Lord Ganesha any mention (apart from the necessary obeisances at the start of my Pujas). I just never 'got' Lord Ganesha (yes, I know the stories inside-out, but that makes no difference whatsoever).

    So, when I say "Lord Ganesha exists because Lord Shiva can break every rule of material existence, physics and matter", she's like 'typical, predictable answer there' (she is an Atheist).

    When all matter is an illusion and Lord Shiva can only be worshiped in the form of Jyotir Lingam because even the various Murtis and illustrations fall way short of the mark...however, they are there to remind us that something beyond this mortal veil exists and we are not the all-knowing beings we often pretend to be.

    We could worship anything really and then if we try hard enough, we can become like that thing or very close to it...some worship money and become rich...others worship food and get fat...Hindus worship Murtis to gain blessing/guidance from the Almighty One and become just one step closer to a merger with the Cosmic Being.

    We can call Him/Her Lord Shiva, Lord Vishnu, Lord Ganesha, Maha Kali, Jagad Ambe and then worship our chosen deity in the form that is most pleasing to us. It is an individual choice.

    I worship (a statue of) Lord Nataraja, but most of my devotion is produced from early oil paintings and pre-1960's lithographs of Lord Shiva and Lady Parvati dancing. I also have a beautiful image of Ardharnarishwar and a picture of Maha Kala/Avalokiteshwar from Tibet. I also really like Kannada Devotional music (I never learned the language, but I can understand it!). All of this makes me remember Lord Shiva.

    Just surrounding ourselves with the beauty that is Bhagwan in our own sense...in our own way and what makes us feel peaceful, happy and 'in tune' with our God and environment...then we pay homage to that every day. This is real Puja.

    It's very difficult to follow the path of Agama without anything...without reference to any God/Deity besides a name and a somewhat vague description...hard for the mind to associate with That. It's also hard for the heart to love That (this will come later)...Murti worship is only a stepping stone on the way to Infinite Oneness...until then, God must be assigned a form so that out limited minds and senses can understand it in its most miniscule adaptation and representation.

    Aum Namah Shivaya
    Last edited by Necromancer; 08 May 2013 at 07:39 AM.

  8. #28

    Re: Murti Puja is not idol worship

    Namaste,

    Here is a video with a good answer for critics of murti puja.

    JAI MATA DI
    || जय माता की ||

  9. #29

    Arrow Re: Murti Puja is not idol worship

    Quote Originally Posted by philosoraptor View Post
    "Idol-worship," if you look at the dictionary definition and historical usage, refers to the deliberate worship of "craven" (i.e. false or manufactured) images. In the Judeo-Christian context, the recently-freed Hebrews committed a sin by making up a god in the form of a golden calf and worshiping it as a god.

    Although many Indian Hindus use the term "idol" innocently, technically it is not correct to use the term "idol worship" to describe archa-murthi worship because the archa-murthi is not regarded by traditional Hindus as a false image, but rather an image sculpted in the likeness of the deity as described in the scriptures.

    Note that this again applies to traditional Hinduism. In Neo-Hinduism, archa-murthies are indeed regarded as manufactured images given to us by great sages to focus our meditation. When one supposedly realizes that the deity is beyond all name and form, then he can dispense with the "idol" and just worship the formless, nameless, attributeless deity directly. So, to the Neo, the murthy is indeed a false image which serves as a means to an end.
    Please don't overgeneralize about us poor Neos. Some of us have a third view that the image is no more (or less) false than anything else in the realm of name-and-form and its usage appropriate at any stage to cultivate and express Bhakti.

  10. #30

    Re: Murti Puja is not idol worship

    Quote Originally Posted by Jeffery D. Long View Post
    Please don't overgeneralize about us poor Neos. Some of us have a third view that the image is no more (or less) false than anything else in the realm of name-and-form and its usage appropriate at any stage to cultivate and express Bhakti.
    Pranams,

    If I have overgeneralized, then it is only because certain past masters of Neo-Hinduism have done so, too, in presuming to speak for all of us. In which case, I have no problem with Hindus recognizing that said persons have indeed over generalized. Swami Vivekananda famously told people at the World Parliament of Religions that, "Idolatry in India does not mean anything horrible, it is not the mother of harlots. On the other hand it is the attempt of undeveloped minds to grasp high spiritual truths."

    I am fairly certain that none of the followers of Ramanuja, Chaitanya, Vallabha, and many more Hindu traditions would regard the practice of archana as indicative of an "undeveloped mind." On the contrary, they see it as evidence of a purified mind. That Vivekananda and his modern followers cannot grasp this is just one more example of the estrangement of Neo-Hinduism from its traditional roots.

    regards,
    Philosoraptor

    "Wise men speak because they have something to say. Fools speak because they have to say something." - Plato

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