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Thread: nArAyaNa in the veda-s

  1. #1

    nArAyaNa in the veda-s

    Namaste,

    Inspired by a similar topic elsewhere, I have decided to post references from shruti identifying nArAyaNa as brahman aka paramAtmA aka the supreme Deity.

    A common line of attack used by mleccha missionaries, is that Vedic religion is polytheistic and has no concept of a supreme Deity. This is in line with the work of European indologists who have tried to assert that viShNu in the Rg veda is merely a "minor solar deity." To be sure, there are references to a Vishnu who is not a supreme deity, but there are many shruti references, both direct and indirect, to a supreme deity, and abundant evidence to indicate that this supreme Deity is nArAyaNa (the Lord of Vaikuntha). I will try to post evidence from sources that I have studied which substantiate this. For now, I will avoid using sources that are exclusively used by later traditions or sources which have not been quoted by traditional commentators and whose status is disputed. Thus, this will not by any means be an exhaustive list.

    My intention is NOT to to provide an easy reference that precludes reading the original sources. Please do not simply pick fights with others and then copy-cut-paste these quotes for use in flame battles. Rather, I would request that those interested in this subject use this as "where to look" guide and research the original source material themselves. It is always a good idea to know the original context, preferably under the tutelage of a qualified guru.

    From my studies to date, it appears that the Vedic religion was quite clear in its endorsement of a supreme deity known by various names, who was responsible for the creation and yet transcended it. Many of the names by which that Supreme Person were known, were also names given to lesser deities who are different from, but connected to and dependent on that Supreme Person. On the other hand, names like "nArAyaNa" can only refer to one specific person, namely the Deity commonly understood by that name, for reasons spelled out by grammarians like pAnini. Thus, while "indra" or "viShnu" could mean different entities based on context, "nArAyaNa" can only refer to one deity and is not used to refer to any other deity besides shrIman nArAyaNa.
    Last edited by philosoraptor; 07 November 2012 at 04:35 PM.
    Philosoraptor

    "Wise men speak because they have something to say. Fools speak because they have to say something." - Plato

  2. #2

    Re: nArAyaNa in the veda-s

    tadviShNoH paramaM padam || (Rgveda 1.22.20, kaThopaniShad 3.9)
    (The highest is the abode of Vishnu)

    agnirvai devAnAmavamo viShNuH paramaH | tadantarA sarvA devatAH || (aitareya brAhmaNa 1.1)
    (Among gods, Agni, the fire-god is the lowest and Vishnu is the highest. In between come all other gods.)

    viShNurdevAnAMshreShTaH || (shatapatha brAhmaNa 14.1.1.5)

    viShNumukhA vai devAH || (taittirIyasaMhitA 5.2.1.1)
    (Gods have Vishnu, indeed, as their leader.)

    agnirmukhaM prathamo devatAnAM saNgatAnAmuttamo viShNurAsIt || (taitarrIya brAhmaNa 2.4.3.3)
    (In the communion of gods, Agni was the first and Vishnu was the highest.)

    (to be continued)
    Philosoraptor

    "Wise men speak because they have something to say. Fools speak because they have to say something." - Plato

  3. #3

    Re: nArAyaNa in the veda-s

    Note that, for the purposes of this thread, I may also quote from less ideal translations that just happen to be available on the internet. I always recommend looking at the original Sanskrit yourselves.

    Bear in mind also that some evidence will be direct, i.e. saying that Vishnu is Supreme Person or Vishnu is Brahman. Others will be less direct, i.e. by describing Vishnu with attributes that can only belong to a Supreme Deity. Both types of evidence will be reviewed.
    Philosoraptor

    "Wise men speak because they have something to say. Fools speak because they have to say something." - Plato

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    Re: nArAyaNa in the veda-s

    Namaskar,
    Nice thread. You may also recommend Dr. Shanbhag's work 'Vishnu is Brhaman'.
    satay

  5. #5

    Re: nArAyaNa in the veda-s

    Rig Veda 1.154.1-6:

    viṣṇornu kaṃ vīryāṇi pra vocaṃ yaḥ pārthivāni vimamerajāṃsi |
    yo askabhāyaduttaraṃ sadhasthaṃ vicakramāṇastredhorughāyaḥ ||
    pra tad viṣṇu stavate vīryeṇa mṛgho na bhīmaḥ kucaro ghiriṣṭhāḥ |
    yasyoruṣu triṣu vikramaṇeṣvadhikṣiyanti bhuvanāni viśvā ||
    pra viṣṇave śūṣametu manma ghirikṣita urughāyāya vṛṣṇe |
    ya idaṃ dīrghaṃ prayataṃ sadhasthameko vimame tribhirit padebhiḥ ||
    yasya trī pūrṇā madhunā padānyakṣīyamāṇā svadhayāmadanti |
    ya u tridhātu pṛtivīmuta dyāmeko dādhāra bhuvanāni viśvā ||
    tadasya priyamabhi pātho aśyāṃ naro yatra devayavo madanti |
    urukramasya sa hi bandhuritthā viṣṇoḥ pade parame madhva utsaḥ ||
    tā vaṃ vāstūnyuśmasi ghamadhyai yatra ghāvo bhūriśṛṅghāayāsaḥ |
    atrāha tadurughāyasya vṛṣṇaḥ paramaṃ padamava bhāti bhūri ||


    1. I WILL declare the mighty deeds of Viṣṇu, of him who measured out the earthly regions,
    Who propped the highest place of congregation, thrice setting down his footstep, widely striding.
    2 For this his mighty deed is Viṣṇu lauded, like some wild beast, dread, prowling, mountain-roaming;
    He within whose three wide-extended paces all living creatures have their habitation.
    3 Let the hymn lift itself as strength to Viṣṇu, the Bull far-striding, dwelling on the mountains,
    Him who alone with triple step hath measured this common dwelling-place, long, far extended.
    4 Him whose three places that are filled with sweetness, imperishable, joy as it may list them,
    Who verily alone upholds the threefold, the earth, the heaven, and all living creatures.
    5 May I attain to that his well-loved mansion where men devoted to the Gods are happy.
    For there springs, close akin to the Wide-Strider, the well of meath in Viṣṇu's highest footstep.
    6 Fain would we go unto your dwelling-places where there are many-horned and nimble oxen,
    For mightily, there, shineth down upon us the widely-striding Bull's sublimest mansion.


    Some scholars (N. Shanbhag, S.M. Srinivasa Chari) point out that the references to three strides covering heaven, earth, etc are not a reference to the Vaamana-avataara, but rather to Vishnu's all-pervasiveness. That all beings dwell in His three footsteps, and that He upholds all these worlds - these are all attributes consistent with a supreme deity as opposed to a minor deity with limited influence.
    Philosoraptor

    "Wise men speak because they have something to say. Fools speak because they have to say something." - Plato

  6. #6

    Re: nArAyaNa in the veda-s

    Rg veda 1.156.1-5

    bhavā mitro na śevyo ghṛtāsutirvibhūtadyumna evayā u saprathāḥ |
    adhā te viṣṇo viduṣā cidardhya stomo yaj˝aścarādhyo haviṣmatā ||
    yaḥ pūrvyāya vedhase navīyase sumajjānaye viṣṇave dadāśati |
    yo jātamasya mahato mahi bravat sedu śravobhiryujyaṃ cidabhyasat ||
    tamu stotāraḥ pūrvyaṃ yathā vida ṛtasya gharbhaṃ januṣāpipartana |
    āsya jānanto nāma cid vivaktana mahaste viṣṇo sumatiṃ bhajāmahe ||
    tamasya rājā varuṇastamaśvinā kratuṃ sacanta mārutasya vedhasaḥ |
    dādhāra dakṣamuttamamaharvidaṃ vrajaṃ ca viṣṇuḥ sakhivānaporṇute ||
    ā yo vivāya sacathāya daivya indrāya viṣṇuḥ sukṛte sukṛttaraḥ |
    vedhā ajinvat triṣadhastha āryaṃ ṛtasya bhāghe yajamānamābhajat ||

    1. FAR-SHINING, widely famed, going thy wonted way, fed with the oil, be helpful. Mitra-like, to us.
    So, Viṣṇu, e’en the wise must swell thy song of praise, and he who hath oblations pay thee solemn rites.
    2 He who brings gifts to him the Ancient and the Last, to Viṣṇu who ordains, together with his Spouse,
    Who tells the lofty birth of him the Lofty One, shall verily surpass in glory e’en his peer.
    3 Him have ye satisfied, singers, as well as ye know, primeval germ of Order even from his birth.
    Ye, knowing e’en his name, have told it forth: may we, Viṣṇu, enjoy the grace of thee the Mighty One.
    4 The Sovran Varuṇa and both the Aśvins wait on this the will of him who guides the Marut host.
    Viṣṇu hath power supreme and might that finds the day, and with his Friend unbars the stable of the kine.
    5 Even he the Heavenly One who came for fellowship, Viṣṇu to Indra, godly to the godlier,
    Who Maker, throned in three worlds, helps the Āryan man, and gives the worshipper his share of Holy Law.


    Here, it is the attributes of being the most Ancient and the Last, and also of having Supreme Power, are particularly significant.
    Last edited by philosoraptor; 07 November 2012 at 05:23 PM.
    Philosoraptor

    "Wise men speak because they have something to say. Fools speak because they have to say something." - Plato

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    Re: nArAyaNa in the veda-s

    Quote Originally Posted by philosoraptor View Post
    My intention is NOT to to provide an easy reference that precludes reading the original sources. Please do not simply pick fights with others and then copy-cut-paste these quotes for use in flame battles. Rather, I would request that those interested in this subject use this as "where to look" guide and research the original source material themselves. It is always a good idea to know the original context, preferably under the tutelage of a qualified guru.
    Sound advice,this.

    Carry on the good work.

    Om Namo Narayanaya!
    Om Namo Bhagavate Vasudevaya!
    namastE astu bhagavan vishveshvarAya mahAdevAya tryaMbakAya|
    tripurAntakAya trikAgnikAlAya kAlAgnirudrAya nIlakaNThAya mRtyuJNjayAya sarveshvarAya sadAshivAya shrIman mAhAdevAya ||

    Om shrImAtrE namah

    sarvam shrI umA-mahEshwara parabrahmArpaNamastu


    A Shaivite library
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    Re: nArAyaNa in the veda-s

    Quote Originally Posted by philosoraptor View Post
    From my studies to date, it appears that the Vedic religion was quite clear in its endorsement of a supreme deity known by various names, who was responsible for the creation and yet transcended it. Many of the names by which that Supreme Person were known, were also names given to lesser deities who are different from, but connected to and dependent on that Supreme Person.
    Shruti Pramana for this-
    RV 10.82.3 Father who made us, he who, as Disposer, knoweth all races and all things existing Even he alone, the Deities' name-giver,him other beings seek for information.
    namastE astu bhagavan vishveshvarAya mahAdevAya tryaMbakAya|
    tripurAntakAya trikAgnikAlAya kAlAgnirudrAya nIlakaNThAya mRtyuJNjayAya sarveshvarAya sadAshivAya shrIman mAhAdevAya ||

    Om shrImAtrE namah

    sarvam shrI umA-mahEshwara parabrahmArpaNamastu


    A Shaivite library
    http://www.scribd.com/HinduismLibrary

  9. #9

    Re: nArAyaNa in the veda-s

    Dear Friend,

    As another member, Omkara, has created an excellent similar thread, it is really noble of you to also start this similar thread....
    for those poor souls who are still under the deep influence of this illusion, who although are born as just humans ,try their level best to evaluate Gods, as if they are some kind of reality show judges judging who is the greatest God,
    for those poor souls who although have a bare minimum knowledge but still shout on top of their voices regarding who is superior amongst Shiva and Vishnu and even go to the extent of abusing Gods...for such poor souls who have absolutely no idea about ParaBramha other than a few westernized internet resources, for such people these threads should be a real helpful guide to understand the reality in depth....

    When one is talking about Sriman Narayana in vedas, one cannot miss talking about the popular Narayana Sukta which is also called as MahaNarayana Upanishad.
    This beautiful comprehensive hymn about Sriman Narayana is found in the 10th chapter of the Taitariya Aaranyaka of Krishna Yajur Veda

    This is such a beautiful hymn with so much of meaning that in almost every ancient Vishnu temple in India, during the Abhisheka[holy bath],
    the Purusha Sukta is recited and continuing with it, the Narayana Sukta is recited....Here is a very humble attempt to understand the overview of this beautiful sukta
    as going into details will need much more than a thread....

    [very rough translation]
    Sri Narayana Suktam

    sahasraSIrsham devam viSvAksham viSvaSambhuvam
    viSvam nArAyaNam devam aksharam paramam padam

    He who is with thousands of heads
    He who perceives everywhere in this universe
    He who is the caretaker, parent, auspiciousness provider of the Universe
    [One can notice the word Shambhu which is used to refer to Shiva is also used here to Narayana]
    He is Narayanan who is the Universe itself
    Here is the point where it is very clearly mentioned about the Parabramha
    Aksharam indicates that which is non perishable or that which is not bound by time...which does not have a boundary defined by time...
    Paramam Padam....That highest supreme abode which is beyond this materialistic universe
    He who is Narayana is the One who is beyond time and who is that Supreme abode...one can also relate to the "tad vishno paramam padam"...
    Within the first two lines itself, the term "Vishwa" or everything, which we roughly call as Universe is used to indicate the point that
    Narayana is present everywhere

    viSvatah paramam nityam viSvam nArAyaNagum harim
    viSvamevedam purushastadviSvamupajIvati

    He who is Superior to this universe....look at the beauty of this suktam...the first few lines clearly state that He is vishwa[Universe],
    and now it states He is the One who is Superior to this Universe....Vishwatah Param the term Param indicates superior most...
    ...who else other than Parabramha are we talking about here...
    He is eternal...He is that entity without a start or a middle or an end...He is eternal...
    its He who is Hari who is pervading as Narayana in all the Universe and beyond...
    He is that Purusha who is present in each and everything in this Universe
    And because of His presence in this Universe, this Universe even exist...upajivati....
    Yet another beautiful line where He, Narayana is that Param who is beyond the universe, is the Universe and is the cause for
    the existence of this Universe only because He is in the Universe as Universe and beyond...

    patim viSvasyAtmeSvaragum SASvatagum Sivamacyutam |
    nArAyaNam mahAj~neyam viSvAtmAnam parAyaNam

    He is the master, pati, of this Universe
    Atmeshvara...this term indicates so much here....He is the Aatma Eshwara....which practically means "The One"
    This is yet another beautiful place where Narayana is refered to as Eeshwara or the Highest Atama...the Paramaathma..The Supreme Atma...
    He is Shaashvata or eternal or not bound by time as He is time....
    Now comes yet another beautiful part of this suktam where its crystal clear...it cant get more clear....Shivam Achyutam....
    This holy Narayana sukta very clearly call Narayana as the Master of this Universe, the Supreme most Aatma, the eternal One
    and then it very clearly says He is Shiva the ever auspicious One and
    He is Achyuta...Achyuta meaning Aashritanaam chyutih yasmaat naasti saha Achyuta...He who never lets His refugees perish is Achyuta
    also He who never ever perishes is also Achyuta....this is such a beautiful hymn which shows He who is Param is Narayana is Shiva....
    Narayana is the ultimate Supreme most knowledge
    Vishwaatamanam..He is the aatma of this Universe
    He is the final destination...

    nArAyaNa param brahma tattvam nArAyaNah parah
    nArAyaNa paro jyotirAtmA nArAyaNah parah

    These are the lines which establish the reality in a very clear manner
    Naraayana Param Bramha...it cannot be more direct that this...it cannot be more clearer than this...it simply cannot be more
    simpler than this....Narayana is Param Bramha...He is the Ultimate Supreme Bramha.....
    Narayana is that greatest Supreme "param Tattva" or priciple or logic
    Narayana is that Supreme most jyothi or that infinite inexhaustible supreme energy
    Aatma Narayana Parah...Narayana is that Param Aatma..the Ultimate Supreme Aatma...
    These two lines give us all the information one needs to understand that we are talking about Param Bramha alone here...


    yacca kincit jagatyasmin drSyate SrUyate api vA
    antarbahiSca tat sarvam vyApya nArAyaNah sthitah

    Such beautiful words of nectar are these...
    yacca kinchit...whatever minutest thing in this Universe which is seen or heard
    whatever inside or outside that is present including everything and beyond is vyaapya...is completely occupied and is
    situated in and as Narayana....These lines indicate famous statement "anor aneeya...mahato maheema" which
    actually means He is the sub atomic particle of the minutest atomic particle and He is greater than the greatest
    universe....

    anantamavyayam kavigum samudrentam viSvaSambhuvam
    padmakoSapratIkAsagum hrdayam cApyadhomukham

    He is Anantha...which means na antyo yasya sah anantha...He who does not have an end is Anantha...
    He is Avyaya...vyaya is to get exhausted or depleted..He is Avyaya..He who cannot get exhausted or depleted...of He is that Supreme source
    of infinite energy which can never ever end...
    He is the One who has knowledge about everything in this Universe
    He whose abode is in the center of a Sumdra or an Ocean...Narayana also means He who dwells in the divine ocean of Naara...
    Sri Maha Vishnu is also said to be in the middle of a ksheera sagara..a milky ocean...
    He who is the protector of this entire Universe...
    This is one beautiful place where the location of heart is mentioned along with His presence inside the heart which indicates
    that He is the source of life is described...one can write books on this beautiful hymn...
    the heart which is like a padmakosha....like a lotus bud facing downwards..adhomukham...the description of a heart is given here...

    adho nishTyA vitastyAm tu nAbhyAmupari tishThati
    hrdayam tat vijAnIyAt viSvasyAyatanam mahat

    Inside that heart, which is like a downward pointing lotus bud, which is below the collarbone or the neck joint and
    above the navel by a few inches,[a measurement taken using ones hand..its approximately the distance
    between the end of thumb and the little finger when stretched ], that is the abode of that Vishwa Aatma..the
    Universal Supreme Soul...Paramaathma....

    These lines so beautifully describe the heart, its location and that He is in everyones heart....

    santatagum sirAbhistu lambatyA koSa sannibham
    tasyAnte sushiragum sUkshmam tasmin sarvam pratishThitam

    Inside the heart, which is enclosed by bones from all the sides, inside a sukshma...a subtle opening at the end of the
    downward point, sarvan Prathistitam..He who is everything resides there...one can see the minute details of the location
    mentioned very clearly here.....one also has to notice that it very clearly states that He is everywhere and in everyones heart...

    tasya madhye mahAnagnir viSvArcir viSvatomukhah
    so’agrabhug vibhajan tishThan AhAramajarah kavih

    Inside that subtle opening in the heart is that Supreme agni or fire or energy, that which looks in all directions...
    that which is eternal in reality...that which is the energy source....it very beautifully also mentioned here that this Maha Agni is the
    one which is existing in us as body heat..its this energy which in the form of maha agni also helps us digest food in our stomach..
    its this Maha agni which actually sustains us...

    Tirya goordhwa madhasa sayee rasmayas tasya santhatha
    santApayati svam dehamApAdatalamastakam

    The rays of this Maha agni is present through out the body
    This is the energy which gives life to us...this maha agni produces heat from head to toe from hand to hand..
    in all directions..its this agni which gives our body the temperature...

    tasya madhye vahniSikhA aNIryordhvA vyavasthitah
    nIlatoyadamadhyasthA vidyullekheva bhAsvarA
    nIvAra SUkavat tanvI pItAbhA syAt tanUpamA

    In the middle of this source of Maha Agni, inside the heart, is a very thin slender flame, that is pointing upwards, which resembles
    a grass blade that is standing upward without flickering,
    It is very bright in nature and looks like light or a bright spark in a dark rainy cloud
    It is slender like the tip of a grain...it is as tiny as the smallest atomic particle....

    tasyAh SikhAyA madhye paramAtmA vyavasthitah
    sa brahmA sa Sivah sa Harih sendrah soksharah paramah svarAT

    This line very beautifully indicates that He is everything alone....
    at the center of that minute atomic flame which is present in the heart, resides Paramaathma....He who is the Supreme most
    resides in each and everyones heart....
    This part clearly shows that He is everything....the popular phrase "Sah ekah..He is The One...."
    Sah Bramha He is Bramha
    Sah Shivah He is Shiva
    Sah Hari He is Hari
    Sah Indra He is Indra
    He is everyone the greatest Emperor of this Universe....
    He who is Hari, Shiva, Bhramha Indra everyone is in everyone in everyones heart....


    rtagum satyam param brahma purusham krshNa pingaLam
    Urdhvaretam virUpAksham viSvarUpAya vai namah

    He is the one who is all pervasiveness
    He is the ultimate truth
    He is Param Bramha
    He is Purusha
    The terms Krishna Pingalam can be interpreted in two ways...
    He is the one who is dark[indirectly referring to the beautiful dark blue color of Sri Maha Vishnu]
    He is the one who is reddish reddish brown [indirectly referring to the beautiful reddish brown color of Shiva[Taamraya as in Sri Rudra]]
    He whose creation energy is always upwards
    He whose beautiful eyes are also different...this is with reference to His eyes having all the different forms..of Gods, humans animals, etc...
    Vishwaroopaya..He who is the Universal form
    I bow to that Sri Narayana

    om nArAyaNAya vidmahe vAsudevAya dhImahi
    tanno vishNu pracodayAt

    Om...I bow to that Sriman Naarayana
    I focus my intellect on that Sri Vaasudeva who is present everywhere
    Let that Sri Maha Vishnu enlighten me

    This also very clearly indicates that Narayana and Vishnu are one and the same....

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    Thumbs Up Re: nArAyaNa in the veda-s

    Namaste philosoraptor,

    Thanks for posting this informative thread.

    Just by reading the conversation between members in this forum, got to know many unaware facts about Santana Dharma.

    Blessed to be born as a Hindu and in Bhaarath.

    Jai Maa Bhaarathi!!


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